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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex format introduced...

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  • Neil Cherry
    ... Not sure what to make of this: http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html It seems to imply that there was Intel Hex around 75 but I m not sure
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
      On 06/16/2013 12:40 PM, corey986 wrote:
      > Thanks. That's helpful.
      >
      > Hopefully we can confirm if its 76 or 78, but still that makes it plausible for what I'm
      > doing. I am writing a monitor for my altair and was deciding if I should include a hex
      > format load from paper tape or not. I wanted to be period correct for 1975/76.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Corey
      >
      > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:midatlanticretro%40yahoogroups.com>, David
      > Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 01:37:22PM -0000, corey986 wrote:
      > > > Can't seem to find it using google.
      > > >
      > > Yup, hard to find. This pushes it back to 1976 or 1978.
      > > www.cpm.z80.de/randyfiles/DRI/ASM.pdf. Page 1 says it generates Intel hex
      > > output.

      Not sure what to make of this:

      http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html

      It seems to imply that there was Intel Hex around 75 but I'm not sure
      if I'm reading too much into it.

      --
      Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
      http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
      http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
      Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
    • B. Degnan
      ... The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following format: Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
        >
        > Can't seem to find it using google.
        >
        > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Corey
        >

        The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following
        format:
        Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
        BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...

        not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -

        SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a copy
        in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that Intel
        HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
        probably.

        http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html

        Bill
      • Mike
        The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
          The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every record.

          I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.

          Regards,
          Mike W.


          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > Can't seem to find it using google.
          > >
          > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Corey
          > >
          >
          > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following
          > format:
          > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
          > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
          >
          > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
          >
          > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a copy
          > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that Intel
          > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
          > probably.
          >
          > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
          >
          > Bill
          >
        • B. Degnan
          Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel s official format was
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
            Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
            octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
            "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
            that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
            bd

            -------- Original Message --------
            > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
            > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:15 AM
            > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
            format introduced...
            >
            > The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source
            listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check
            byte for every record.
            >
            > I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O
            system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way
            back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Mike W.
            >
            >
            > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
            wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Can't seem to find it using google.
            > > >
            > > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > > Corey
            > > >
            > >
            > > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the
            following
            > > format:
            > > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
            > > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
            > >
            > > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
            > >
            > > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a
            copy
            > > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that
            Intel
            > > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
            > > probably.
            > >
            > > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
            > >
            > > Bill
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • B. Degnan
            ... hex format introduced... ... I should clarify - The Intel manual s format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was 029 punched card format. The alternative is a
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
              -------- Original Message --------
              > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
              > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
              hex format introduced...
              >
              > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
              > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
              > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
              > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
              > bd
              >

              I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
              029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
              BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
              the ePROM.

              bd
            • Mike
              Yes, all classical 8008 code that I ve seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
                Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data bytes.

                regards,
                Mike W.

                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > -------- Original Message --------
                > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
                > hex format introduced...
                > >
                > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
                > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
                > > bd
                > >
                >
                > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                > the ePROM.
                >
                > bd
                >
              • B. Degnan
                My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel Hex format
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
                  My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
                  homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
                  Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
                  probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
                  probably wanted to.
                  bd

                  -------- Original Message --------
                  > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                  > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
                  > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                  format introduced...
                  >
                  > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
                  octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
                  the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
                  time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
                  bytes.
                  >
                  > regards,
                  > Mike W.
                  >
                  > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -------- Original Message --------
                  > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                  > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                  > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
                  intel
                  > > hex format introduced...
                  > > >
                  > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in

                  > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                  > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
                  alternatively
                  > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
                  format.
                  > > > bd
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
                  was
                  > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                  > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
                  for
                  > > the ePROM.
                  > >
                  > > bd
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • s100doctor
                  ... MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User s Manual - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing All references are to BNPF format, none
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                    >

                    > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                    > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                    > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                    > the ePROM.
                    >

                    "MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User's Manual" - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing

                    All references are to BNPF format, none to any hex format, for paper tapes for either software or PROMs. That's likely what Bill is referring to above. Bill's n's are either P for a high or N for a low, what we would call today 1 and 0 respectively.

                    from the "Intellec 8/MOD 80 Operator's Manual - preliminary edition" - June 1974

                    Appendix D- - Hexadecimal program tape format - quote-

                    The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system is a modified memory image, blocked into discrete records. Each record contains record length, record type, memory address, and check sum information in addition to data. A frame by frame description is as
                    follows: - end quote

                    the description is the Intel Hex Record format of
                    :NNAAAATTDDDDDD...CC as described elsewhere. ROM monitor commands are described elsewhere in the manual, to read or write either BNPF or "hexadecimal format" paper tapes.

                    I may have more to say about this on my Web site in the future.

                    Herb Johnson
                    retrotechnology.com
                  • s100doctor
                    ... Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That s the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
                      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "s100doctor" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                      >

                      > The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system...

                      Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That's the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about 8008's.

                      Herb
                    • DougCrawford
                      ... I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also. I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I m sure he could have told us, as I just read
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 30, 2013
                        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
                        > homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
                        > Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
                        > probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
                        > probably wanted to.
                        > bd
                        >
                        > -------- Original Message --------
                        > > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                        > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
                        > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                        > format introduced...
                        > >
                        > > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
                        > octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
                        > the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
                        > time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
                        > bytes.
                        > >
                        > > regards,
                        > > Mike W.
                        > >
                        > > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -------- Original Message --------
                        > > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                        > > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                        > > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
                        > intel
                        > > > hex format introduced...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                        >
                        > > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                        > > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
                        > alternatively
                        > > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
                        > format.
                        > > > > bd
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
                        > was
                        > > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                        > > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
                        > for
                        > > > the ePROM.
                        > > >
                        > > > bd
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                        I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also.
                        I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I'm sure he could have told us, as I just read he was working with Intel as they developed
                        the 4004 on forward.
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