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Re: [midatlanticretro] Ok historians. When was the intel hex format introduced...

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  • David Gesswein
    ... Yup, hard to find. This pushes it back to 1976 or 1978. www.cpm.z80.de/randyfiles/DRI/ASM.pdf. Page 1 says it generates Intel hex output.
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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      On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 01:37:22PM -0000, corey986 wrote:
      > Can't seem to find it using google.
      >
      Yup, hard to find. This pushes it back to 1976 or 1978.
      www.cpm.z80.de/randyfiles/DRI/ASM.pdf. Page 1 says it generates Intel hex
      output.
    • Dave McGuire
      ... I m guessing the documentation for the Intel MDS might be a good place to find a much earlier reference. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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        On 06/16/2013 10:29 AM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
        >>>> Can't seem to find it using google.
        >>>>
        >>>> Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
        >>>
        >>> This seems to imply 1988
        >>>
        >>> http://www.interlog.com/~speff/usefulinfo/Hexfrmt.pdf
        >>>
        >>> It is revision A.
        >>
        >> This cannot possibly be correct; I was using it years before 1988.
        >>
        >> "The Programmer's CP/M Handbook" by Andy Johnson-Laird is copyright
        > 1983,
        >> and it describes the format.
        >
        > I feel the same way, but this seems to be when Intel officially
        > documented
        > it as the Intel Hex format. Need to find older documentation in one of
        > their
        > data books.

        I'm guessing the documentation for the Intel MDS might be a good place to
        find a much earlier reference.

        -Dave

        --
        Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
        New Kensington, PA
      • joshbensadon
        ... I don t have a lot of data, but I checked my intel 8080/8085 Assembly Language Programming book, c1977,1978,1979 (which I guess means the book is the
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Dave McGuire <Mcguire@...> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> "The Programmer's CP/M Handbook" by Andy Johnson-Laird is copyright
          > > 1983,
          > >> and it describes the format.
          > >
          > > I feel the same way, but this seems to be when Intel officially
          > > documented
          > > it as the Intel Hex format. Need to find older documentation in one of
          > > their
          > > data books.


          I don't have a lot of data, but I checked my "intel 8080/8085 Assembly Language Programming" book, c1977,1978,1979 (which I guess means the book is the 3rd reprint or revision? done in 1979.

          Page 1-2, talks about the assembler having an "OBJECT FILE" output that will likely be put in a ROM, but they do not go into any details. My guess, is either... the format wasn't established yet, or (more likely) they were keeping the format proprietary and didn't want to readily publish/share it.
          I believe the latter to be the case, based on the electronics industry at that time.

          Correct me if I'm wrong, but the format is primarily focused for 8 bit systems with 16bit addressing. I'm sure it can handle 16 bit (the PIC assembler outputs 16 bit data in intel format) but the overall format just looks natural in an 8 bit system.

          :)J
        • corey986
          Thanks. That s helpful. Hopefully we can confirm if its 76 or 78, but still that makes it plausible for what I m doing. I am writing a monitor for my altair
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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            Thanks. That's helpful.

            Hopefully we can confirm if its 76 or 78, but still that makes it plausible for what I'm doing. I am writing a monitor for my altair and was deciding if I should include a hex format load from paper tape or not. I wanted to be period correct for 1975/76.

            Cheers,
            Corey

            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 01:37:22PM -0000, corey986 wrote:
            > > Can't seem to find it using google.
            > >
            > Yup, hard to find. This pushes it back to 1976 or 1978.
            > www.cpm.z80.de/randyfiles/DRI/ASM.pdf. Page 1 says it generates Intel hex
            > output.
            >
          • Neil Cherry
            ... I think the latest version of the Intel hex can handle 32 bit addressing (hence the 88 update). See the Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_hex
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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              On 06/16/2013 12:35 PM, joshbensadon wrote:

              > Correct me if I'm wrong, but the format is primarily focused for 8 bit systems with 16bit
              > addressing. I'm sure it can handle 16 bit (the PIC assembler outputs 16 bit data in intel
              > format) but the overall format just looks natural in an 8 bit system.

              I think the latest version of the Intel hex can handle 32 bit addressing (hence the 88
              update).

              See the Wiki page:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_hex

              --
              Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
              http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
              http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
              Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
            • Dave McGuire
              ... You re right, but it s extensible. I use it for ARM development. (32-bit) I ve not dug into the nature of the extensions, though; I just use it as an
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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                On 06/16/2013 12:35 PM, joshbensadon wrote:
                >>>> "The Programmer's CP/M Handbook" by Andy Johnson-Laird is copyright
                >>> 1983,
                >>>> and it describes the format.
                >>>
                >>> I feel the same way, but this seems to be when Intel officially
                >>> documented
                >>> it as the Intel Hex format. Need to find older documentation in one of
                >>> their
                >>> data books.
                >
                >
                > I don't have a lot of data, but I checked my "intel 8080/8085 Assembly Language Programming" book, c1977,1978,1979 (which I guess means the book is the 3rd reprint or revision? done in 1979.
                >
                > Page 1-2, talks about the assembler having an "OBJECT FILE" output that will likely be put in a ROM, but they do not go into any details. My guess, is either... the format wasn't established yet, or (more likely) they were keeping the format proprietary and didn't want to readily publish/share it.
                > I believe the latter to be the case, based on the electronics industry at that time.
                >
                > Correct me if I'm wrong, but the format is primarily focused for 8 bit systems with 16bit addressing. I'm sure it can handle 16 bit (the PIC assembler outputs 16 bit data in intel format) but the overall format just looks natural in an 8 bit system.

                You're right, but it's extensible. I use it for ARM development.
                (32-bit) I've not dug into the nature of the extensions, though; I just
                use it as an intermediate format.

                -Dave

                --
                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                New Kensington, PA
              • Neil Cherry
                ... Not sure what to make of this: http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html It seems to imply that there was Intel Hex around 75 but I m not sure
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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                  On 06/16/2013 12:40 PM, corey986 wrote:
                  > Thanks. That's helpful.
                  >
                  > Hopefully we can confirm if its 76 or 78, but still that makes it plausible for what I'm
                  > doing. I am writing a monitor for my altair and was deciding if I should include a hex
                  > format load from paper tape or not. I wanted to be period correct for 1975/76.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Corey
                  >
                  > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:midatlanticretro%40yahoogroups.com>, David
                  > Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 01:37:22PM -0000, corey986 wrote:
                  > > > Can't seem to find it using google.
                  > > >
                  > > Yup, hard to find. This pushes it back to 1976 or 1978.
                  > > www.cpm.z80.de/randyfiles/DRI/ASM.pdf. Page 1 says it generates Intel hex
                  > > output.

                  Not sure what to make of this:

                  http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html

                  It seems to imply that there was Intel Hex around 75 but I'm not sure
                  if I'm reading too much into it.

                  --
                  Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
                  http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
                  http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
                  Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
                • B. Degnan
                  ... The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following format: Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 16, 2013
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                    >
                    > Can't seem to find it using google.
                    >
                    > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Corey
                    >

                    The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following
                    format:
                    Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
                    BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...

                    not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -

                    SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a copy
                    in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that Intel
                    HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
                    probably.

                    http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html

                    Bill
                  • Mike
                    The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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                      The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every record.

                      I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.

                      Regards,
                      Mike W.


                      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Can't seem to find it using google.
                      > >
                      > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > > Corey
                      > >
                      >
                      > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following
                      > format:
                      > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
                      > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
                      >
                      > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
                      >
                      > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a copy
                      > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that Intel
                      > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
                      > probably.
                      >
                      > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                    • B. Degnan
                      Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel s official format was
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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                        Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                        octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                        "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
                        that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
                        bd

                        -------- Original Message --------
                        > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                        > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:15 AM
                        > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                        format introduced...
                        >
                        > The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source
                        listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check
                        byte for every record.
                        >
                        > I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O
                        system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way
                        back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Mike W.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Can't seem to find it using google.
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks,
                        > > > Corey
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the
                        following
                        > > format:
                        > > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
                        > > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
                        > >
                        > > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
                        > >
                        > > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a
                        copy
                        > > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that
                        Intel
                        > > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
                        > > probably.
                        > >
                        > > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
                        > >
                        > > Bill
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • B. Degnan
                        ... hex format introduced... ... I should clarify - The Intel manual s format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was 029 punched card format. The alternative is a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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                          -------- Original Message --------
                          > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                          > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
                          hex format introduced...
                          >
                          > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                          > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                          > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
                          > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
                          > bd
                          >

                          I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                          029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                          BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                          the ePROM.

                          bd
                        • Mike
                          Yes, all classical 8008 code that I ve seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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                            Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data bytes.

                            regards,
                            Mike W.

                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -------- Original Message --------
                            > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                            > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                            > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
                            > hex format introduced...
                            > >
                            > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                            > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                            > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
                            > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
                            > > bd
                            > >
                            >
                            > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                            > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                            > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                            > the ePROM.
                            >
                            > bd
                            >
                          • B. Degnan
                            My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel Hex format
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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                              My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
                              homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
                              Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
                              probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
                              probably wanted to.
                              bd

                              -------- Original Message --------
                              > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                              > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
                              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                              format introduced...
                              >
                              > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
                              octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
                              the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
                              time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
                              bytes.
                              >
                              > regards,
                              > Mike W.
                              >
                              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                              wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -------- Original Message --------
                              > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                              > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                              > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
                              intel
                              > > hex format introduced...
                              > > >
                              > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in

                              > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                              > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
                              alternatively
                              > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
                              format.
                              > > > bd
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
                              was
                              > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                              > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
                              for
                              > > the ePROM.
                              > >
                              > > bd
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • s100doctor
                              ... MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User s Manual - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing All references are to BNPF format, none
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
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                                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                                >

                                > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                                > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                                > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                                > the ePROM.
                                >

                                "MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User's Manual" - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing

                                All references are to BNPF format, none to any hex format, for paper tapes for either software or PROMs. That's likely what Bill is referring to above. Bill's n's are either P for a high or N for a low, what we would call today 1 and 0 respectively.

                                from the "Intellec 8/MOD 80 Operator's Manual - preliminary edition" - June 1974

                                Appendix D- - Hexadecimal program tape format - quote-

                                The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system is a modified memory image, blocked into discrete records. Each record contains record length, record type, memory address, and check sum information in addition to data. A frame by frame description is as
                                follows: - end quote

                                the description is the Intel Hex Record format of
                                :NNAAAATTDDDDDD...CC as described elsewhere. ROM monitor commands are described elsewhere in the manual, to read or write either BNPF or "hexadecimal format" paper tapes.

                                I may have more to say about this on my Web site in the future.

                                Herb Johnson
                                retrotechnology.com
                              • s100doctor
                                ... Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That s the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
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                                  --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "s100doctor" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                                  >

                                  > The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system...

                                  Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That's the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about 8008's.

                                  Herb
                                • DougCrawford
                                  ... I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also. I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I m sure he could have told us, as I just read
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 30, 2013
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                                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
                                    > homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
                                    > Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
                                    > probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
                                    > probably wanted to.
                                    > bd
                                    >
                                    > -------- Original Message --------
                                    > > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                                    > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
                                    > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                                    > format introduced...
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
                                    > octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
                                    > the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
                                    > time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
                                    > bytes.
                                    > >
                                    > > regards,
                                    > > Mike W.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -------- Original Message --------
                                    > > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                                    > > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                                    > > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
                                    > intel
                                    > > > hex format introduced...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                                    >
                                    > > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                                    > > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
                                    > alternatively
                                    > > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
                                    > format.
                                    > > > > bd
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
                                    > was
                                    > > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                                    > > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
                                    > for
                                    > > > the ePROM.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > bd
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >

                                    I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also.
                                    I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I'm sure he could have told us, as I just read he was working with Intel as they developed
                                    the 4004 on forward.
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