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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Museum report -- help us!!!

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  • Bryan Pope
    Methinks that Evan s foot is pretty stinky right now... Cheers, Bryan
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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      Methinks that Evan's foot is pretty stinky right now...   <duck>  

      Cheers,

      Bryan

      On 4/22/2013 10:27 AM, Vince Fleming wrote:  

      I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this... 

      I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.

      I also find your intolerance rather hypocritical.   The BSA is not the KKK - we don't preach discrimination and it's never even come up in our troop.  We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthiness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for.  It's not a hate group.

      I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH?  They openly discriminate aginst Gays and Athiests also.

      Regardless, I'll take your response as a polite "no, thanks".

      Vince

      Sent from my iPad - please excuse spelling errors


      On Apr 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:

       

      BSA is legally allowed to have their "principles" according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It's their first amendment right.

      But if a group's principles overtly * exclude * people who are welcomed by MARCH, then the groups should not partner. That alone is the basis for my response -- not my personal politics.

      I know of several well-respected MARCHins who are gay, and several who are atheist. Why would we support any group that wouldn't allow our own members to join, regardless of the reason?

      __._

    • Evan Koblentz
      ... LOL
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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        >> 1. Do not touch any computer unless they are labeled "touch me". 2. Do not make fun of CGA graphics (pixels have feelings too). 3. Do not make fun of anyone and show the same respect for all. This includes those that are gay, jewish, black, etc. 4. Do not call the TRS-80 a Trash-80. 5. Do not belittle the 360K floppy disk with your 256G flash drive.

        LOL
      • Evan Koblentz
        ... I know. No worries. ... As Bill said -- and he s still our VP in good standing ;) -- there are big issues of liability, and the job really does require
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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          >> I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this...

          I know. No worries.

          >> I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.

          As Bill said -- and he's still our VP in good standing ;) -- there are big issues of liability, and the job really does require knowledge of the subject matter. So it would not work.

          >> I also find your intolerance ... we don't preach discrimination

          My intolerance? That's odd, but you're entitled to your opinion. BSA's web site specifically states who is, and isn't allowed. Bill called it "principles" ... Interesting euphemism...

          >> and it's never even come up in our troop.  We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthiness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for.

          Glad to hear that. I hope more troops become like yours and force the national body to get a clue. :)

          >> I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH?

          As I said, my stance applies to groups, not individuals. Either way, I can't fathom how/why we'd ever work with a religious group, unless they had computers to donate...

          >> They openly discriminate aginst Gays and Athiests also.

          That's true.

          PS, my lifelong best friend is an Irish Catholic, and my girlfriend is an Italian raised Catholic.
        • Christian Liendo
          Coming to Evan s defense and I can understand his concern. (yes I am defending Evan, call Guinness, call Guinness)  Bill covered this part well, I am just
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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            Coming to Evan's defense and I can understand his concern. (yes I am defending Evan, call Guinness, call Guinness) 

            Bill covered this part well, I am just agreeing with it.

            I know groups that just don't work with children's groups period. Working with children is to much of a liability.
            This is not the children's fault, you can blame a league of lawyers for that. On this alone I think we should work with children only if their parent is involved.
            The museum is designed for children to view the exhibits not to move equipment around. 
            We are working with heavy equipment in an environment that is still a work in progress. I think it best not to do this.

            This is for the children's safety and what I think is best for our insurance. 
            The museum is designed for Children to come enjoy. 

            As for the BSA. I'm not going to go into the BSA policies. They have them, we know them, nuff said. 
            I know groups that stopped working with them because it created a "dramatic" work environment. 
            Lets be honest, I have seen drama sans kids working with some of you ;) 
            This is not a political issue. This is a striving to have a non dramatic working environment issue.

            Also Evan is not denying them access and coming to enjoy the museum. 

            Again I don't think Evan was being malicious, and I understand his concern.

            I speak for myself when I say, thank you for the offer it is appreciated.  
            Please understand why some of us think this is something we shouldn't do. 
          • Dan Roganti
            hate to belabor this but.... there s a more important issue, as this can invite possible litigation now or in the future. You as an officier of the corporation
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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              hate to belabor this but....
              there's a more important issue, as this can invite possible litigation now or in the future. 

              You as an officier of the corporation can create some detrimental liability for the MARCH organization -- as this is not simply just some rambling rage from any list member. Officers of any organization are supposed to hold a responsibility to follow the policies at hand. Even though MARCH is a corporate entity, irregardless if it's a non-profit, you don't own the InfoAge facility. MARCH and all the other clubs there, will always fall under the umbrella of Infoage museum when it pertains to any policy involving the public. You simply cannot have a policy which supersedes the Infoage museum based on some personal preferences. So if Infoage wants to invite some organization like the BSA, you simply cannot refuse, because the BSA is still a legal entity  - no matter how much you might be opposed to their policies. In some places, any similar action taken such as this would get MARCH kicked out.
              .
              Now, it's widely apparent and obvious (if you don't live under a rock) that organizations such as the BSA can only exist with policies which supersede Federal discrimination policies because it is a *private* entity - much like the various stodgy 'n snooty private country clubs - thanks to SCOTUS, which reneged their obligation to uphold discrimination by passing the buck down to the local cities to decide whether or not to enforce anything. Even Churches are exempt from this thanks to them. There is no way in hell that any public organization would exist under the current Federal non-discrimination policies. 

              So the next time, think twice, and bite your lip

            • Evan Koblentz
              ... This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other groups are merely tenants there.
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                >> So if Infoage wants to invite some organization like the BSA, you simply cannot refuse

                This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other groups are merely tenants there.
              • William Donzelli
                ... Is MARCH a corporate entity? EIN? I am curious... -- Will
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                  > You as an officier of the corporation can create some detrimental
                  > liability for the MARCH organization -- as this is not simply just some
                  > rambling rage from any list member. Officers of any organization are
                  > supposed to hold a responsibility to follow the policies at hand. Even
                  > though MARCH is a corporate entity,

                  Is MARCH a corporate entity? EIN? I am curious...

                  --
                  Will
                • William Donzelli
                  ... This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as InfoAge. This has
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                    > This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other
                    > groups are merely tenants there.

                    This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH
                    and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as
                    InfoAge.

                    This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only
                    be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge. Fred Carl
                    will not be amused. Neither will the other groups.

                    The only thing to do now is damage control.

                    --
                    Will
                  • Vince Fleming
                    No damage control required. No offense taken. If MARCH can t use the help I offered, that s fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                      No damage control required. No offense taken.  If MARCH can't use the help I offered, that's fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some opinions, we (the local BSA troop I am associated with) are not evil people. 

                      I would suggest not mentioning the reason in the future, though. :)

                      Vince Fleming



                      On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:14 PM, "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...> wrote:

                       

                      > This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other
                      > groups are merely tenants there.

                      This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH
                      and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as
                      InfoAge.

                      This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only
                      be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge. Fred Carl
                      will not be amused. Neither will the other groups.

                      The only thing to do now is damage control.

                      --
                      Will

                    • William Donzelli
                      ... I bet the cat is out of the bag, however. -- Will
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                        > No damage control required. No offense taken. If MARCH can't use the help
                        > I offered, that's fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some
                        > opinions, we (the local BSA troop I am associated with) are not evil people.
                        >
                        > I would suggest not mentioning the reason in the future, though. :)

                        I bet the cat is out of the bag, however.

                        --
                        Will
                      • Evan Koblentz
                        ... Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New Jersey. Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web site.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                          >> Is MARCH a corporate entity?

                          Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New Jersey.

                          Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web site.
                        • William Donzelli
                          ... Very good, thank you. -- Will
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                            > Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New
                            > Jersey.
                            >
                            > Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web
                            > site.

                            Very good, thank you.

                            --
                            Will
                          • Evan Koblentz
                            ... That s ridiculous. But as usual, Will, on every fathomable subject, you are an expert. You d be correct if I wanted our group to work * with * those who
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                              >> This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge.

                              That's ridiculous. But as usual, Will, on every fathomable subject, you are an expert.

                              You'd be correct if I wanted our group to work * with * those who discriminate.

                              Reality check: even the US military gave us their obsolete point of view. Anyone who can't grok that is on the wrong damn side of history.
                            • Evan Koblentz
                              ... Oops. Up . Anyway ... some people really, really want this thread to stop. Back to the subject line ... Yay, storage.
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                >> gave us

                                Oops. "Up".

                                Anyway ... some people really, really want this thread to stop.

                                Back to the subject line ... Yay, storage.
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