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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Museum report -- help us!!!

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  • Evan Koblentz
    ... Bill, I always appreciate your strong diplomacy skills. :) Everyone else, I stand by my previous post.
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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      >> This is a subject that we'll discuss next time the MARCH BOD has a meeting

      Bill, I always appreciate your strong diplomacy skills. :)

      Everyone else, I stand by my previous post.
    • Evan Koblentz
      Diplomacy ... Just a bit: Just as groups shouldn t judge their members based on what the members do in their personal lives, MARCH nor I would ever not welcome
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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        Diplomacy ... Just a bit: Just as groups shouldn't judge their members based on what the members do in their personal lives, MARCH nor I would ever not welcome anyone who's friendly and into vintage computers based on how they do their parenting. It's none of our business. I hope any club members who might support BSA understand this. My original message applies to what transpires in official club business. We'd be rightfully and widely condemned if we worked with a group that openly bans Asians, blacks, Jews, etc, so there is no reason (other than phobia) for anyone to have a problem about not working with groups that ban atheists and gays.
      • B. Degnan
        ... Also -- to be 100% frank and serious -- we re glad to give scouts museum tours and such, but MARCH under my leadership will not work with groups that
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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          -------- Original Message --------
          > From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
          > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 8:50 AM
          > To: "MARCH Yahoo Midatlanticretro" <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Museum report -- help us!!!
          >
          > >> Is this something that a Boy Scout Troop could help with?
          >
          > No, because the job requires a working knowledge of vintage computers.
          Also -- to be 100% frank and serious -- we're glad to give scouts museum
          tours and such, but MARCH under my leadership will not work with groups
          that discriminate.
          >
          > I hope my statement doesn't cause a flame war. I know that several
          MARCHins and their families are happily involved with BSA, and we/I enforce
          a no-politics rule on this list. I am breaking the rule this one time :)
          ... if anyone thinks we * should * work with groups that discriminate, or
          that we should accept help from anyone without considering what it might
          enable in the big picture, then feel free to "out" yourself (pun
          intended).
          >

          I have children in Scouts. No one is 100% happy ever with any group but to
          say discriminate because they have religious principles IS a form of
          discrimination and I will not back down from that view. Don't bring your
          politics on this board and you don't speak for this board member. I want to
          make that clear - MARCH is not political and even the president of MARCH
          cannot make blanket statements on behalf of anyone but himself. I regret
          this unsanctioned comment.

          If this is "MARCH's view" then I will resign right here.

          Bill Degnan
          a V.P MARCH
        • Evan Koblentz
          BSA is legally allowed to have their principles according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It s their first amendment right. But if a group s principles overtly
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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            BSA is legally allowed to have their "principles" according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It's their first amendment right.

            But if a group's principles overtly * exclude * people who are welcomed by MARCH, then the groups should not partner. That alone is the basis for my response -- not my personal politics.

            I know of several well-respected MARCHins who are gay, and several who are atheist. Why would we support any group that wouldn't allow our own members to join, regardless of the reason?
          • Vince Fleming
            I really didn t intend to start a sh*tstorm with this... I wasn t suggesting a partnership - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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              I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this... 

              I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.

              I also find your intolerance rather hypocritical.   The BSA is not the KKK - we don't preach discrimination and it's never even come up in our troop.  We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthiness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for.  It's not a hate group.

              I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH?  They openly discriminate aginst Gays and Athiests also.

              Regardless, I'll take your response as a polite "no, thanks".

              Vince

              Sent from my iPad - please excuse spelling errors


              On Apr 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:

               

              BSA is legally allowed to have their "principles" according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It's their first amendment right.

              But if a group's principles overtly * exclude * people who are welcomed by MARCH, then the groups should not partner. That alone is the basis for my response -- not my personal politics.

              I know of several well-respected MARCHins who are gay, and several who are atheist. Why would we support any group that wouldn't allow our own members to join, regardless of the reason?

            • joshbensadon
              ... Why? Because think of the greater good. BSA is for the children, not the leaders. Those children don t have any gay or atheist role models and if they
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
                >
                > BSA is legally allowed to have their "principles" according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It's their first amendment right.
                >
                > But if a group's principles overtly * exclude * people who are welcomed by MARCH, then the groups should not partner. That alone is the basis for my response -- not my personal politics.
                >
                > I know of several well-respected MARCHins who are gay, and several who are atheist. Why would we support any group that wouldn't allow our own members to join, regardless of the reason?
                >

                Why? Because think of the greater good. BSA is for the children, not the leaders. Those children don't have any gay or atheist role models and if they are allowed to see that in MARCH then please let them. I agree that BSA must not be allowed to censor or exclude any MARCHin's.

                Be the bigger man here. Don't let your differences (with the management) deprive the children. It is very likely that a percentage of those boy scouts are gay even if they don't know it or understand it themselves yet. I think it would be a good thing for all the children to see normal people are not just heterosexual.

                Now, with children, you must make the rules clear and up front. Never assume a kid knows how to be polite.

                In the interest of protecting MARCH's right to open access for all, it should be made clear to the children that we accept all people and that we respect everyone by not making fun of them, etc.

                I would go as far as writing this down and have all the kids sign a contract for the rules of conduct. If BSA will not enter such a contract, then you are not the bad guy here.

                :)J

                Let me help with some suggestions for such a contract:

                1. Do not touch any computer unless they are labeled "touch me".
                2. Do not make fun of CGA graphics (pixels have feelings too).
                3. Do not make fun of anyone and show the same respect for all. This includes those that are gay, jewish, black, etc.
                4. Do not call the TRS-80 a Trash-80.
                5. Do not belittle the 360K floppy disk with your 256G flash drive.
                ...
              • Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-
                ... How about a nice Operating System religion war? :) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG Well I speak to machines
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                  Vince Fleming <vincef@...> writes:

                  >I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this...
                  >
                  >I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free =
                  >labor to move stuff around.
                  >
                  >I also find your intolerance rather hypocritical. The BSA is not the KKK =
                  >- we don't preach discrimination and it's never even come up in our troop. =
                  > We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthi=
                  >ness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for. It's not =
                  >a hate group.
                  >
                  >I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH? They openly discriminate =
                  >aginst Gays and Athiests also.

                  How about a nice Operating System religion war? :)

                  --
                  VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

                  Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
                • Bryan Pope
                  Methinks that Evan s foot is pretty stinky right now... Cheers, Bryan
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                    Methinks that Evan's foot is pretty stinky right now...   <duck>  

                    Cheers,

                    Bryan

                    On 4/22/2013 10:27 AM, Vince Fleming wrote:  

                    I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this... 

                    I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.

                    I also find your intolerance rather hypocritical.   The BSA is not the KKK - we don't preach discrimination and it's never even come up in our troop.  We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthiness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for.  It's not a hate group.

                    I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH?  They openly discriminate aginst Gays and Athiests also.

                    Regardless, I'll take your response as a polite "no, thanks".

                    Vince

                    Sent from my iPad - please excuse spelling errors


                    On Apr 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:

                     

                    BSA is legally allowed to have their "principles" according to SCOTUS. I agree with that. It's their first amendment right.

                    But if a group's principles overtly * exclude * people who are welcomed by MARCH, then the groups should not partner. That alone is the basis for my response -- not my personal politics.

                    I know of several well-respected MARCHins who are gay, and several who are atheist. Why would we support any group that wouldn't allow our own members to join, regardless of the reason?

                    __._

                  • Evan Koblentz
                    ... LOL
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                      >> 1. Do not touch any computer unless they are labeled "touch me". 2. Do not make fun of CGA graphics (pixels have feelings too). 3. Do not make fun of anyone and show the same respect for all. This includes those that are gay, jewish, black, etc. 4. Do not call the TRS-80 a Trash-80. 5. Do not belittle the 360K floppy disk with your 256G flash drive.

                      LOL
                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... I know. No worries. ... As Bill said -- and he s still our VP in good standing ;) -- there are big issues of liability, and the job really does require
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                        >> I really didn't intend to start a sh*tstorm with this...

                        I know. No worries.

                        >> I wasn't suggesting a "partnership" - just that MARCH might want some free labor to move stuff around.

                        As Bill said -- and he's still our VP in good standing ;) -- there are big issues of liability, and the job really does require knowledge of the subject matter. So it would not work.

                        >> I also find your intolerance ... we don't preach discrimination

                        My intolerance? That's odd, but you're entitled to your opinion. BSA's web site specifically states who is, and isn't allowed. Bill called it "principles" ... Interesting euphemism...

                        >> and it's never even come up in our troop.  We teach nothing but the positive to our boys - core values of trustworthiness, bravery, kindness, loyalty, etc. are what we're there for.

                        Glad to hear that. I hope more troops become like yours and force the national body to get a clue. :)

                        >> I guess Catholics are also not welcome at MARCH?

                        As I said, my stance applies to groups, not individuals. Either way, I can't fathom how/why we'd ever work with a religious group, unless they had computers to donate...

                        >> They openly discriminate aginst Gays and Athiests also.

                        That's true.

                        PS, my lifelong best friend is an Irish Catholic, and my girlfriend is an Italian raised Catholic.
                      • Christian Liendo
                        Coming to Evan s defense and I can understand his concern. (yes I am defending Evan, call Guinness, call Guinness)  Bill covered this part well, I am just
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                          Coming to Evan's defense and I can understand his concern. (yes I am defending Evan, call Guinness, call Guinness) 

                          Bill covered this part well, I am just agreeing with it.

                          I know groups that just don't work with children's groups period. Working with children is to much of a liability.
                          This is not the children's fault, you can blame a league of lawyers for that. On this alone I think we should work with children only if their parent is involved.
                          The museum is designed for children to view the exhibits not to move equipment around. 
                          We are working with heavy equipment in an environment that is still a work in progress. I think it best not to do this.

                          This is for the children's safety and what I think is best for our insurance. 
                          The museum is designed for Children to come enjoy. 

                          As for the BSA. I'm not going to go into the BSA policies. They have them, we know them, nuff said. 
                          I know groups that stopped working with them because it created a "dramatic" work environment. 
                          Lets be honest, I have seen drama sans kids working with some of you ;) 
                          This is not a political issue. This is a striving to have a non dramatic working environment issue.

                          Also Evan is not denying them access and coming to enjoy the museum. 

                          Again I don't think Evan was being malicious, and I understand his concern.

                          I speak for myself when I say, thank you for the offer it is appreciated.  
                          Please understand why some of us think this is something we shouldn't do. 
                        • Dan Roganti
                          hate to belabor this but.... there s a more important issue, as this can invite possible litigation now or in the future. You as an officier of the corporation
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                            hate to belabor this but....
                            there's a more important issue, as this can invite possible litigation now or in the future. 

                            You as an officier of the corporation can create some detrimental liability for the MARCH organization -- as this is not simply just some rambling rage from any list member. Officers of any organization are supposed to hold a responsibility to follow the policies at hand. Even though MARCH is a corporate entity, irregardless if it's a non-profit, you don't own the InfoAge facility. MARCH and all the other clubs there, will always fall under the umbrella of Infoage museum when it pertains to any policy involving the public. You simply cannot have a policy which supersedes the Infoage museum based on some personal preferences. So if Infoage wants to invite some organization like the BSA, you simply cannot refuse, because the BSA is still a legal entity  - no matter how much you might be opposed to their policies. In some places, any similar action taken such as this would get MARCH kicked out.
                            .
                            Now, it's widely apparent and obvious (if you don't live under a rock) that organizations such as the BSA can only exist with policies which supersede Federal discrimination policies because it is a *private* entity - much like the various stodgy 'n snooty private country clubs - thanks to SCOTUS, which reneged their obligation to uphold discrimination by passing the buck down to the local cities to decide whether or not to enforce anything. Even Churches are exempt from this thanks to them. There is no way in hell that any public organization would exist under the current Federal non-discrimination policies. 

                            So the next time, think twice, and bite your lip

                          • Evan Koblentz
                            ... This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other groups are merely tenants there.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                              >> So if Infoage wants to invite some organization like the BSA, you simply cannot refuse

                              This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other groups are merely tenants there.
                            • William Donzelli
                              ... Is MARCH a corporate entity? EIN? I am curious... -- Will
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                > You as an officier of the corporation can create some detrimental
                                > liability for the MARCH organization -- as this is not simply just some
                                > rambling rage from any list member. Officers of any organization are
                                > supposed to hold a responsibility to follow the policies at hand. Even
                                > though MARCH is a corporate entity,

                                Is MARCH a corporate entity? EIN? I am curious...

                                --
                                Will
                              • William Donzelli
                                ... This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as InfoAge. This has
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                  > This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other
                                  > groups are merely tenants there.

                                  This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH
                                  and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as
                                  InfoAge.

                                  This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only
                                  be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge. Fred Carl
                                  will not be amused. Neither will the other groups.

                                  The only thing to do now is damage control.

                                  --
                                  Will
                                • Vince Fleming
                                  No damage control required. No offense taken. If MARCH can t use the help I offered, that s fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                    No damage control required. No offense taken.  If MARCH can't use the help I offered, that's fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some opinions, we (the local BSA troop I am associated with) are not evil people. 

                                    I would suggest not mentioning the reason in the future, though. :)

                                    Vince Fleming



                                    On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:14 PM, "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    > This has nothing to do with InfoAge. Legally speaking, MARCH and the other
                                    > groups are merely tenants there.

                                    This has everything to do with InfoAge. Realistically speaking, MARCH
                                    and the other groups are intertwined and viewed by the public as
                                    InfoAge.

                                    This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only
                                    be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge. Fred Carl
                                    will not be amused. Neither will the other groups.

                                    The only thing to do now is damage control.

                                    --
                                    Will

                                  • William Donzelli
                                    ... I bet the cat is out of the bag, however. -- Will
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                      > No damage control required. No offense taken. If MARCH can't use the help
                                      > I offered, that's fine, regardless of the reason given, because despite some
                                      > opinions, we (the local BSA troop I am associated with) are not evil people.
                                      >
                                      > I would suggest not mentioning the reason in the future, though. :)

                                      I bet the cat is out of the bag, however.

                                      --
                                      Will
                                    • Evan Koblentz
                                      ... Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New Jersey. Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web site.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                        >> Is MARCH a corporate entity?

                                        Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New Jersey.

                                        Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web site.
                                      • William Donzelli
                                        ... Very good, thank you. -- Will
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                          > Yes, we are Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., here in New
                                          > Jersey.
                                          >
                                          > Justin can supply our EIN, or you can search the NJ state government web
                                          > site.

                                          Very good, thank you.

                                          --
                                          Will
                                        • Evan Koblentz
                                          ... That s ridiculous. But as usual, Will, on every fathomable subject, you are an expert. You d be correct if I wanted our group to work * with * those who
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                            >> This has all the workings of a PR disaster, and the shit will not only be on MARCH's face, but every group associated with InfoAge.

                                            That's ridiculous. But as usual, Will, on every fathomable subject, you are an expert.

                                            You'd be correct if I wanted our group to work * with * those who discriminate.

                                            Reality check: even the US military gave us their obsolete point of view. Anyone who can't grok that is on the wrong damn side of history.
                                          • Evan Koblentz
                                            ... Oops. Up . Anyway ... some people really, really want this thread to stop. Back to the subject line ... Yay, storage.
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                              >> gave us

                                              Oops. "Up".

                                              Anyway ... some people really, really want this thread to stop.

                                              Back to the subject line ... Yay, storage.
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