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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby.

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  • Evan Koblentz
    ... Shh! People might find out. :)
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 6 7:17 AM
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      >> They make it sound like we are a secret group out to make lots of money by collecting old computers.

      Shh! People might find out. :)
    • B. Degnan
      ... MARCH s mission is first of all to have fun and work together on projects related to vintage computer preservation and use. Our other overall goal is to
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 6 7:36 AM
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        >
        > In 100 years, if someone still has a working Windows 95 laptop, it
        > will be worth more than it is now. But, that'll only help your great-
        > grandchildren to cash in. But that will be because most similar
        > laptops will have disappeared, into landfills or recycling centers.
        > And, that still does not make it an investment.
        >
        > For something to be an investment, you have to have the expectation of
        > a return on capital -while- you own it... like land, stock shares,
        > real estate, and financial instruments. Sure, some of those things
        > can be speculative too, but stock shares can pay dividends from
        > earnings, real estate can be rented (or used, in which case you are
        > your own landlord), and banks pay interest for the use of your money.
        >


        MARCH's mission is first of all to have fun and work together on projects
        related to vintage computer preservation and use. Our other overall goal
        is to educate other about computer history (in particular Mid-Atlantic's),
        and to rescue and preserve historical computers in our care. Check MARCH
        FAQ's...nothing about cashing in!

        The wired article I was in was more on target.
        http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/02/restorations-2/?pid=589
        Focus on the positive!

        They say any press is good press, Evan. :-)

        bd
      • Christian Liendo
        From: Evan Koblentz ... Thank you... Evan knows I am a bit on the warped humor side. (O_o )  I think it took a few years for Evan to
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 6 8:48 AM
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          From: Evan Koblentz <evan@...>
          >I took it with the humor that Chris intended.

          Thank you... Evan knows I am a bit on the warped humor side. (O_o ) 


          I think it took a few years for Evan to understand the term of endearment I used for my collection. "My Crap"

          My ex used to call my collection crap, even screaming to me on a cell phone where the occupants of the car I was in heard it. 
          She is gone, my crap is still here. 
        • Dave McGuire
          ... I don t know *anyone* involved in vintage computing who considers it to be speculation or investment . Anyone. And personally, with a few specific
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 6 8:52 AM
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            On 03/06/2013 09:42 AM, Ray Sills wrote:
            > Well... Evan's oy vey notwithstanding... and I certainly agree with
            > him on the criticism of BankRate.com... ANY collectible is not truly
            > an investment... it's a speculation: you hope that someone in the
            > future will pay you more for the item than you paid. (The "greater
            > fool" theory). Of course, some people keep items (antiques or
            > otherwise) for sentimental reasons.. ("This was my grandfather's
            > rocking chair"..etc.) And, one of your descendants might feel that
            > way about your first single-board computer.

            I don't know *anyone* involved in vintage computing who considers it
            to be "speculation" or "investment". Anyone.

            And personally, with a few specific exceptions, nothing I (in
            particular) have here is for sale. Know how many tens of thousands of
            dollars I'd get if I were to put my PDP10s on eBay? (hint: the last one
            went for $25,000) They are NOT FOR SALE, plain and simple. They will
            be willed to someone. I don't buy vintage computer hardware in hopes of
            selling it to make a profit...I buy it because I want to HAVE it.

            I believe this describes nearly everyone in the vintage computing
            community, and certainly everyone here.

            -Dave

            --
            Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
            New Kensington, PA
          • Dave McGuire
            ... Bravo. The first time my S.O. says something like that, she s shown the door. End of story. (it has happened!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 6 9:03 AM
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              On 03/06/2013 11:48 AM, Christian Liendo wrote:
              > I think it took a few years for Evan to understand the term of endearment I used for my collection. "My Crap"
              >
              > My ex used to call my collection crap, even screaming to me on a cell phone where the occupants of the car I was in heard it.
              > She is gone, my crap is still here.

              Bravo. The first time my S.O. says something like that, she's shown
              the door. End of story. (it has happened!)

              -Dave

              --
              Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
              New Kensington, PA
            • B. Degnan
              ... hobby. ... endearment I used for my collection. My Crap ... phone where the occupants of the car I was in heard it. ... True, be we hobbyists need to
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 6 9:51 AM
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                -------- Original Message --------
                > From: "Dave McGuire" <Mcguire@...>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 12:31 PM
                > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our
                hobby.
                >
                > On 03/06/2013 11:48 AM, Christian Liendo wrote:
                > > I think it took a few years for Evan to understand the term of
                endearment I used for my collection. "My Crap"
                > >
                > > My ex used to call my collection crap, even screaming to me on a cell
                phone where the occupants of the car I was in heard it.
                > > She is gone, my crap is still here.
                >
                > Bravo. The first time my S.O. says something like that, she's shown
                > the door. End of story. (it has happened!)
                >
                > -Dave
                >

                True, be we hobbyists need to keep our crap under control, there is a point
                when a collection becomes a problem and we need to know where the "line"
                is... Sellam may have a new perspective on that.. We have to take our SO's
                into account. Not everyone can appreciate our love of this hobby, there
                are times where sensitivity is smart.

                bd
              • Evan Koblentz
                Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment.
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 6 9:53 AM
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                  Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment.
                • Dave McGuire
                  ... Damn suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 6 9:55 AM
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                    On 03/06/2013 12:53 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
                    > Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment.

                    Damn suits.

                    -Dave

                    --
                    Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                    New Kensington, PA
                  • Dave McGuire
                    ... I think the real problem is a bit different. If an S.O. cannot come to terms with something their partner loves, even if said S.O. doesn t share that
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 6 9:56 AM
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                      On 03/06/2013 12:51 PM, B. Degnan wrote:
                      >>> I think it took a few years for Evan to understand the term of
                      > endearment I used for my collection. "My Crap"
                      >>>
                      >>> My ex used to call my collection crap, even screaming to me on a cell
                      > phone where the occupants of the car I was in heard it.
                      >>> She is gone, my crap is still here.
                      >>
                      >> Bravo. The first time my S.O. says something like that, she's shown
                      >> the door. End of story. (it has happened!)
                      >
                      > True, be we hobbyists need to keep our crap under control, there is a point
                      > when a collection becomes a problem and we need to know where the "line"
                      > is... Sellam may have a new perspective on that.. We have to take our SO's
                      > into account. Not everyone can appreciate our love of this hobby, there
                      > are times where sensitivity is smart.

                      I think the real problem is a bit different. If an S.O. cannot come
                      to terms with something their partner loves, even if said S.O. doesn't
                      share that interest, then the S.O. is just plain incompatible.

                      Now, if a "collector" becomes unreasonable, like taking over the
                      whole house in a way that makes things difficult for the uninterested
                      S.O., that's a different problem entirely.

                      -Dave

                      --
                      Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                      New Kensington, PA
                    • Mike Loewen
                      ... In the event of my untimely demise, my wife has instructions to contact this group for assistance in selling the valuable items and finding homes for the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 6 10:45 AM
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                        On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:

                        > And personally, with a few specific exceptions, nothing I (in
                        > particular) have here is for sale. Know how many tens of thousands of
                        > dollars I'd get if I were to put my PDP10s on eBay? (hint: the last one
                        > went for $25,000) They are NOT FOR SALE, plain and simple. They will
                        > be willed to someone. I don't buy vintage computer hardware in hopes of
                        > selling it to make a profit...I buy it because I want to HAVE it.

                        In the event of my untimely demise, my wife has instructions to contact
                        this group for assistance in selling the valuable items and finding homes
                        for the rest. With working IMSAIs selling for > $2,000, that's only fair
                        to her.

                        Someone else will have to help find buyers for $10,000 worth of brass
                        instruments. :-)


                        Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                        Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                      • Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-
                        ... You just can t trust anybody with... - a suit. - a shave. - a haircut. - a practiced profession. - a title other than Mr. or Mrs. ... -- VAXman- A Bored
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 6 11:17 AM
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                          Dave McGuire <Mcguire@...> writes:

                          >On 03/06/2013 12:53 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
                          >> Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment.
                          >
                          > Damn suits.

                          You just can't trust anybody with...

                          - a suit.
                          - a shave.
                          - a haircut.
                          - a "practiced" profession.
                          - a title other than Mr. or Mrs.

                          :)

                          --
                          VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

                          Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
                        • Ray Sills
                          ... A very good idea. Even better would be to put it in writing, as part of a legal will. Heaven forbid, but it could happen that one of us expires along
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 6 11:21 AM
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                            On Mar 6, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
                            > In the event of my untimely demise, my wife has instructions to
                            > contact
                            > this group for assistance in selling the valuable items and finding
                            > homes
                            > for the rest. With working IMSAIs selling for > $2,000, that's only
                            > fair
                            > to her.
                            >
                            > Someone else will have to help find buyers for $10,000 worth of
                            > brass
                            > instruments. :-)
                            >
                            >

                            A very good idea. Even better would be to put it in writing, as part
                            of a legal will. Heaven forbid, but it could happen that one of us
                            expires along with our significant other in a common accident... (that
                            does happen). And I think virtually all of us would want to see that
                            these important items are placed in the hands of someone who will
                            continue to care for them... and not just get tossed as "junk". That
                            happens, too.

                            In my case, anything that might be of interest to MARCH, has already
                            been donated to MARCH... with the single exception of my RCA VIP.

                            73 de Ray
                          • joshbensadon
                            ... That s a great idea. I personally would hope my son will take an interest but who knows? I didn t take an interest in my dad s stamp collection but
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 6 11:22 AM
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                              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Mike Loewen <mloewen@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > In the event of my untimely demise, my wife has instructions to contact
                              > this group for assistance in selling the valuable items and finding homes
                              > for the rest. With working IMSAIs selling for > $2,000, that's only fair
                              > to her.


                              That's a great idea. I personally would hope my son will take an interest but who knows? I didn't take an interest in my dad's stamp collection but hopefully, I'll find a way to get him involved.

                              Does anyone here have children that are interested in this hobby?
                              If so, would you say it's their nature or how you raised them?

                              For Evan's sake, I'll label this as OT.

                              Cheers,
                              Josh
                            • Mike Loewen
                              ... Hey, I must be trustworthy! Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 6 11:22 AM
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                                On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:

                                > Dave McGuire <Mcguire@...> writes:
                                >
                                >> On 03/06/2013 12:53 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
                                >>> Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment.
                                >>
                                >> Damn suits.
                                >
                                > You just can't trust anybody with...
                                >
                                > - a suit.
                                > - a shave.
                                > - a haircut.
                                > - a "practiced" profession.
                                > - a title other than Mr. or Mrs.

                                Hey, I must be trustworthy!


                                Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                              • William Donzelli
                                ... All these PeeCees and Windows machines we hate now will be worth money - and I think the timeframe will be far shorter than 100 years. Every class of
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 6 12:08 PM
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                                  > In 100 years, if someone still has a working Windows 95 laptop, it
                                  > will be worth more than it is now. But, that'll only help your great-
                                  > grandchildren to cash in. But that will be because most similar
                                  > laptops will have disappeared, into landfills or recycling centers.
                                  > And, that still does not make it an investment.

                                  All these PeeCees and Windows machines we hate now will be worth money
                                  - and I think the timeframe will be far shorter than 100 years. Every
                                  class of gadget that had an impact on society becomes collectable
                                  eventually.

                                  > For something to be an investment, you have to have the expectation of
                                  > a return on capital -while- you own it... like land, stock shares,
                                  > real estate, and financial instruments.

                                  This is not true. You can certainly have investments that are solely
                                  intended for heirs, either trusts or living people. There are indeed
                                  people that do this in their estate plans - it is not an uncommon
                                  strategy.

                                  --
                                  Will
                                • William Donzelli
                                  ... Yes, as part of a will. However, nobody does this. And I really mean *nobody*. One part of my profession is buying up the estates of engineers and ham
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 6 12:29 PM
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                                    > A very good idea. Even better would be to put it in writing, as part
                                    > of a legal will.

                                    Yes, as part of a will.

                                    However, nobody does this. And I really mean *nobody*.

                                    One part of my profession is buying up the estates of engineers and
                                    ham radio operators, and see this first hand. Widows are burdened with
                                    piles of interesting stuff that they all to often see as crap. For
                                    every estate cleanout I do, I hear of ten that went in the dumpster,
                                    because of a lack of proper, formal estate planning. And proper,
                                    formal estate planning means a will with detailed and explicit
                                    instructions on what is to be done with the collection.

                                    Anything else, as good as the intentions may be, is skating close to worthless.

                                    So...broadcasting to everyone here...create or update your wills.

                                    --
                                    Will
                                  • William Donzelli
                                    ... Do you mean a Collection Policy? Nope, never heard of such a thing, either... -- Will
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 6 12:39 PM
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                                      > True, be we hobbyists need to keep our crap under control, there is a
                                      > point
                                      > when a collection becomes a problem and we need to know where the "line"
                                      > is...

                                      Do you mean a Collection Policy?

                                      Nope, never heard of such a thing, either...

                                      --
                                      Will
                                    • Wesley Furr
                                      Do these detailed and explicit instructions need to be part of a formal lawyer-written and legalese-filled document, or will it suffice to have a written note
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 6 12:44 PM
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                                        Do these detailed and explicit instructions need to be part of a formal
                                        lawyer-written and legalese-filled document, or will it suffice to have a
                                        written note with your signed name on it? Or just a formal will with a line
                                        saying to see a related informal document?

                                        Sounds like a good idea regardless of what one is collecting...

                                        Wesley


                                        -----Original Message-----

                                        Yes, as part of a will.

                                        However, nobody does this. And I really mean *nobody*.

                                        One part of my profession is buying up the estates of engineers and ham
                                        radio operators, and see this first hand. Widows are burdened with piles of
                                        interesting stuff that they all to often see as crap. For every estate
                                        cleanout I do, I hear of ten that went in the dumpster, because of a lack of
                                        proper, formal estate planning. And proper, formal estate planning means a
                                        will with detailed and explicit instructions on what is to be done with the
                                        collection.

                                        Anything else, as good as the intentions may be, is skating close to
                                        worthless.

                                        So...broadcasting to everyone here...create or update your wills.

                                        --
                                        Will
                                      • William Donzelli
                                        ... A legal will does not have to be a lawyer-written and legalese-filled document, but often it is a good idea. It is also a good idea to have all the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 6 1:00 PM
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                                          > Do these detailed and explicit instructions need to be part of a formal
                                          > lawyer-written and legalese-filled document, or will it suffice to have a
                                          > written note with your signed name on it? Or just a formal will with a
                                          > line
                                          > saying to see a related informal document?

                                          A legal will does not have to be a lawyer-written and legalese-filled
                                          document, but often it is a good idea.

                                          It is also a good idea to have all the information in a will, rather
                                          than on attached documents. The latter are prone to getting lost, and
                                          can result in a tangle if the will is contested.

                                          To do this properly, the collection should be clearly defined, so the
                                          executor knows what is to be dealt with. Major items in the collection
                                          should be identified and listed with descriptions, model numbers, and
                                          even serial numbers, if applicable. There should be clear guidelines
                                          for the executor so they know how to deal with the collection. There
                                          should be contingencies in case the executor can not perform his
                                          duties (this happens a *lot* - executors die too), listing museums and
                                          historic groups that could potentially help. There should also be
                                          contingencies in case beneficiaries can not accept what is willed to
                                          them (because they die too).

                                          All this is basic estate lawyer stuff.

                                          --
                                          Will
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