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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Altair 8800 Web Emulator

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  • B. Degnan
    ... a ... than ... underscore ... In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key, under standard configuration, use of backspace will generate
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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      > >
      > On the Altair do you actually use the _ key for deleting a character? On
      a
      > teletype they normally used the rubout key that gave code 127. On modern

      > keyvoards that is normally the delete key and backspace used code 8.
      > The teletype doesn't have a backspace key though you can generate the
      > code with control-h.
      > (Rubout third row third from right)
      > http://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large
      >
      > THe printing _ is because of teletypes. A teletype can't back up other
      than
      > a carrage return. Even if it did you wouldn't be able to reliably read
      > the new character printed on top of the old so they printed the
      underscore
      > for each character "backed up". On the PDP-8 you use the delete key and
      > it prints the _ when configured for teletype.
      >

      In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key, under
      standard configuration, use of backspace will generate an error even if
      your command looks correct before you hit enter

      If you type this..
      .RUN RKA0;

      ..and then use the backspace key to correct (change semi-colon to
      colon)...
      .RUN RKA0:BASIC.SV [enter]

      ...OS/8 will return an OS syntax error.

      My original point - you can find a way to add backspace ability, but it
      was not really an option back then so you have to decide whether it matters
      to you or not to bypass the historic limitation of the time.

      I believe that there is value to experience what it was really like to work
      in this environment without modern shortcuts. If to engineer a new program
      you are required to toggle bootstraps, load a tape, enter code by hand,
      punch the tape on the teletype, and so on you'll start to change your
      approach to programming. The first thing you realize is that it's best to
      try to write and debug as much of the code by hand before you enter into
      the computer. That's why a lot of Altair docs I have come upon have sheets
      and sheets of pseudo code and hand-written listings along with the manuals.
      People did not use the computer to write and edit code like they do today,
      too time consuming. You had to be more precise in your data entry and more
      organized in your approach. No one would want to sit there for a half hour
      to punch a tape, then another half hour to run the tape just to find a
      single syntax error crashes the whole program. That's why there were a lot
      less people doing programming and hardware back then, this kind of work was
      not for everyone. It gives you a real appreciation for those people
      (before my time btw) who did all of this stuff when it was new back then,
      and what motivated the likes of Woz/Jobs to make something easier to use.

      Not everyone has the luxury of walking up to a computer with a teletype. I
      think it would be a great service if we had an exhibit / demo for MARCH's
      museum to show people what it was like to use a teletype for I/O and
      program storage. I would not recommend allowing the public to use it
      though, it'd have to be a ready-to-go demo for someone that had an hour to
      witness the entire process, maybe with a little lecture to kill time
      between the tape loads/punches.

      Bill
    • corey986
      I 100% agree. Having to flip switches or even type in the ocal/hex by hand has made me a better programmer. This actually came up at dinner last night (I m
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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        I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex by hand has made me a better programmer. This actually came up at dinner last night (I'm at training in Texas right now) where we were talking about the "old" days and how people who lived through toggling in a boot loader on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource utilization as programmers than the guys who started programming with Visual Basic who tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage. It was a pretty heated converstation enhanced by wine and Fogo de Chao "Meat" high....

        Cheers,
        Corey
        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" wrote:
        >
        >
        > > >
        > > On the Altair do you actually use the _ key for deleting a character? On
        > a
        > > teletype they normally used the rubout key that gave code 127. On modern
        >
        > > keyvoards that is normally the delete key and backspace used code 8.
        > > The teletype doesn't have a backspace key though you can generate the
        > > code with control-h.
        > > (Rubout third row third from right)
        > > http://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large
        > >
        > > THe printing _ is because of teletypes. A teletype can't back up other
        > than
        > > a carrage return. Even if it did you wouldn't be able to reliably read
        > > the new character printed on top of the old so they printed the
        > underscore
        > > for each character "backed up". On the PDP-8 you use the delete key and
        > > it prints the _ when configured for teletype.
        > >
        >
        > In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key, under
        > standard configuration, use of backspace will generate an error even if
        > your command looks correct before you hit enter
        >
        > If you type this..
        > .RUN RKA0;
        >
        > ..and then use the backspace key to correct (change semi-colon to
        > colon)...
        > .RUN RKA0:BASIC.SV [enter]
        >
        > ...OS/8 will return an OS syntax error.
        >
        > My original point - you can find a way to add backspace ability, but it
        > was not really an option back then so you have to decide whether it matters
        > to you or not to bypass the historic limitation of the time.
        >
        > I believe that there is value to experience what it was really like to work
        > in this environment without modern shortcuts. If to engineer a new program
        > you are required to toggle bootstraps, load a tape, enter code by hand,
        > punch the tape on the teletype, and so on you'll start to change your
        > approach to programming. The first thing you realize is that it's best to
        > try to write and debug as much of the code by hand before you enter into
        > the computer. That's why a lot of Altair docs I have come upon have sheets
        > and sheets of pseudo code and hand-written listings along with the manuals.
        > People did not use the computer to write and edit code like they do today,
        > too time consuming. You had to be more precise in your data entry and more
        > organized in your approach. No one would want to sit there for a half hour
        > to punch a tape, then another half hour to run the tape just to find a
        > single syntax error crashes the whole program. That's why there were a lot
        > less people doing programming and hardware back then, this kind of work was
        > not for everyone. It gives you a real appreciation for those people
        > (before my time btw) who did all of this stuff when it was new back then,
        > and what motivated the likes of Woz/Jobs to make something easier to use.
        >
        > Not everyone has the luxury of walking up to a computer with a teletype. I
        > think it would be a great service if we had an exhibit / demo for MARCH's
        > museum to show people what it was like to use a teletype for I/O and
        > program storage. I would not recommend allowing the public to use it
        > though, it'd have to be a ready-to-go demo for someone that had an hour to
        > witness the entire process, maybe with a little lecture to kill time
        > between the tape loads/punches.
        >
        > Bill
        >
      • corey986
        Hey Bill... I have an idea for VCF... I was thinking of bringing my Briel Altair to sit next to my real one. It s been modified to have an external serial
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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          Hey Bill...

          I have an idea for VCF... I was thinking of bringing my Briel Altair to sit next to my real one. It's been modified to have an external serial emulating the SIO-A. If we build a current loop to RS232 adapter for the teletype, we could let people toggle in a boot loader on the Briel. I have like 100 spare switches so I'm not concerned about the public using the briel unlike the real one where original orange case round switches are expensive and hard to find, and the silk screen needs to be protected from wear and scratches for historical reasons.

          Cheers,
          Corey

          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, corey986 wrote:
          >
          >
          > I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex by hand has made me a better programmer. This actually came up at dinner last night (I'm at training in Texas right now) where we were talking about the "old" days and how people who lived through toggling in a boot loader on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource utilization as programmers than the guys who started programming with Visual Basic who tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage. It was a pretty heated converstation enhanced by wine and Fogo de Chao "Meat" high....
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Corey
          > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > > > On the Altair do you actually use the _ key for deleting a character? On
          > > a
          > > > teletype they normally used the rubout key that gave code 127. On modern
          > >
          > > > keyvoards that is normally the delete key and backspace used code 8.
          > > > The teletype doesn't have a backspace key though you can generate the
          > > > code with control-h.
          > > > (Rubout third row third from right)
          > > > http://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large
          > > >
          > > > THe printing _ is because of teletypes. A teletype can't back up other
          > > than
          > > > a carrage return. Even if it did you wouldn't be able to reliably read
          > > > the new character printed on top of the old so they printed the
          > > underscore
          > > > for each character "backed up". On the PDP-8 you use the delete key and
          > > > it prints the _ when configured for teletype.
          > > >
          > >
          > > In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key, under
          > > standard configuration, use of backspace will generate an error even if
          > > your command looks correct before you hit enter
          > >
          > > If you type this..
          > > .RUN RKA0;
          > >
          > > ..and then use the backspace key to correct (change semi-colon to
          > > colon)...
          > > .RUN RKA0:BASIC.SV [enter]
          > >
          > > ...OS/8 will return an OS syntax error.
          > >
          > > My original point - you can find a way to add backspace ability, but it
          > > was not really an option back then so you have to decide whether it matters
          > > to you or not to bypass the historic limitation of the time.
          > >
          > > I believe that there is value to experience what it was really like to work
          > > in this environment without modern shortcuts. If to engineer a new program
          > > you are required to toggle bootstraps, load a tape, enter code by hand,
          > > punch the tape on the teletype, and so on you'll start to change your
          > > approach to programming. The first thing you realize is that it's best to
          > > try to write and debug as much of the code by hand before you enter into
          > > the computer. That's why a lot of Altair docs I have come upon have sheets
          > > and sheets of pseudo code and hand-written listings along with the manuals.
          > > People did not use the computer to write and edit code like they do today,
          > > too time consuming. You had to be more precise in your data entry and more
          > > organized in your approach. No one would want to sit there for a half hour
          > > to punch a tape, then another half hour to run the tape just to find a
          > > single syntax error crashes the whole program. That's why there were a lot
          > > less people doing programming and hardware back then, this kind of work was
          > > not for everyone. It gives you a real appreciation for those people
          > > (before my time btw) who did all of this stuff when it was new back then,
          > > and what motivated the likes of Woz/Jobs to make something easier to use.
          > >
          > > Not everyone has the luxury of walking up to a computer with a teletype. I
          > > think it would be a great service if we had an exhibit / demo for MARCH's
          > > museum to show people what it was like to use a teletype for I/O and
          > > program storage. I would not recommend allowing the public to use it
          > > though, it'd have to be a ready-to-go demo for someone that had an hour to
          > > witness the entire process, maybe with a little lecture to kill time
          > > between the tape loads/punches.
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          >
        • Mike Loewen
          ... It actually extends forward a bit to the micro era. If you were constrained to less than 64KB of RAM for your code (not considering overlay techniques),
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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            On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, corey986 wrote:

            > I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex by
            > hand has made me a better programmer. This actually came up at dinner
            > last night (I'm at training in Texas right now) where we were talking
            > about the "old" days and how people who lived through toggling in a boot
            > loader on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource
            > utilization as programmers than the guys who started programming with
            > Visual Basic who tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage.

            It actually extends forward a bit to the micro era. If you were
            constrained to less than 64KB of RAM for your code (not considering
            overlay techniques), you had to be very careful of your resource
            management. In a Turbo Pascal program I wrote in the mid-'80s on a TRS-80
            Model 4 running Montezuma Micro CP/M, I managed to fit an in-memory
            indexing scheme such that I could retrieve any record from the database
            stored on floppy in less than 2 seconds.


            Mike Loewen mloewen@...
            Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
          • Neil Cherry
            ... This holds true of any restricted env such as a uC with limited resources. Of course when you ve been around long enough and use larger computer resources
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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              On 01/08/2013 09:54 AM, corey986 wrote:
              >
              > I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex by hand has made me a
              > better programmer. This actually came up at dinner last night (I'm at training in Texas
              > right now) where we were talking about the "old" days and how people who lived through
              > toggling in a boot loader on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource
              > utilization as programmers than the guys who started programming with Visual Basic who
              > tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage. It was a pretty heated converstation
              > enhanced by wine and Fogo de Chao "Meat" high....

              This holds true of any restricted env such as a uC with limited resources.

              Of course when you've been around long enough and use larger computer resources
              you start to think about other limited resources such as time. As an Engineer
              (EE, System Engineer, etc.) you have to look at the overall picture .

              But I do agree that folks who have had to live with tight limits tend to
              be better overall Engineers.

              --
              Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
              http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
              http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
              Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
            • B. Degnan
              The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232. I don t know if it was also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2. It should be possible to punch a
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232. I don't know if it was
                also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2. It should be possible to
                punch a tape of BASIC from the web to the modified machine's punch, and
                then load basic directly from the tape. You'd need an absolute loader in
                ROM or on tape as well. You could use a switch box to hop over to a glass
                terminal after the tape loads.

                -------- Original Message --------
                > From: "corey986" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:35 AM
                > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Altair 8800 Web Emulator
                >
                > Hey Bill...
                >
                > I have an idea for VCF... I was thinking of bringing my Briel Altair to
                sit next to my real one. It's been modified to have an external serial
                emulating the SIO-A. If we build a current loop to RS232 adapter for the
                teletype, we could let people toggle in a boot loader on the Briel. I have
                like 100 spare switches so I'm not concerned about the public using the
                briel unlike the real one where original orange case round switches are
                expensive and hard to find, and the silk screen needs to be protected from
                wear and scratches for historical reasons.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Corey
                >
                > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, corey986 wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex
                by hand has made me a better programmer. This actually came up at dinner
                last night (I'm at training in Texas right now) where we were talking about
                the "old" days and how people who lived through toggling in a boot loader
                on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource utilization as
                programmers than the guys who started programming with Visual Basic who
                tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage. It was a pretty heated
                converstation enhanced by wine and Fogo de Chao "Meat" high....
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > > Corey
                > > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > On the Altair do you actually use the _ key for deleting a
                character? On
                > > > a
                > > > > teletype they normally used the rubout key that gave code 127. On
                modern
                > > >
                > > > > keyvoards that is normally the delete key and backspace used code
                8.
                > > > > The teletype doesn't have a backspace key though you can generate
                the
                > > > > code with control-h.
                > > > > (Rubout third row third from right)
                > > > > http://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large
                > > > >
                > > > > THe printing _ is because of teletypes. A teletype can't back up
                other
                > > > than
                > > > > a carrage return. Even if it did you wouldn't be able to reliably
                read
                > > > > the new character printed on top of the old so they printed the
                > > > underscore
                > > > > for each character "backed up". On the PDP-8 you use the delete key
                and
                > > > > it prints the _ when configured for teletype.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key,
                under
                > > > standard configuration, use of backspace will generate an error even
                if
                > > > your command looks correct before you hit enter
                > > >
                > > > If you type this..
                > > > .RUN RKA0;
                > > >
                > > > ..and then use the backspace key to correct (change semi-colon to
                > > > colon)...
                > > > .RUN RKA0:BASIC.SV [enter]
                > > >
                > > > ...OS/8 will return an OS syntax error.
                > > >
                > > > My original point - you can find a way to add backspace ability, but
                it
                > > > was not really an option back then so you have to decide whether it
                matters
                > > > to you or not to bypass the historic limitation of the time.
                > > >
                > > > I believe that there is value to experience what it was really like
                to work
                > > > in this environment without modern shortcuts. If to engineer a new
                program
                > > > you are required to toggle bootstraps, load a tape, enter code by
                hand,
                > > > punch the tape on the teletype, and so on you'll start to change your

                > > > approach to programming. The first thing you realize is that it's
                best to
                > > > try to write and debug as much of the code by hand before you enter
                into
                > > > the computer. That's why a lot of Altair docs I have come upon have
                sheets
                > > > and sheets of pseudo code and hand-written listings along with the
                manuals.
                > > > People did not use the computer to write and edit code like they do
                today,
                > > > too time consuming. You had to be more precise in your data entry
                and more
                > > > organized in your approach. No one would want to sit there for a
                half hour
                > > > to punch a tape, then another half hour to run the tape just to find
                a
                > > > single syntax error crashes the whole program. That's why there were
                a lot
                > > > less people doing programming and hardware back then, this kind of
                work was
                > > > not for everyone. It gives you a real appreciation for those people

                > > > (before my time btw) who did all of this stuff when it was new back
                then,
                > > > and what motivated the likes of Woz/Jobs to make something easier to
                use.
                > > >
                > > > Not everyone has the luxury of walking up to a computer with a
                teletype. I
                > > > think it would be a great service if we had an exhibit / demo for
                MARCH's
                > > > museum to show people what it was like to use a teletype for I/O and

                > > > program storage. I would not recommend allowing the public to use it

                > > > though, it'd have to be a ready-to-go demo for someone that had an
                hour to
                > > > witness the entire process, maybe with a little lecture to kill time

                > > > between the tape loads/punches.
                > > >
                > > > Bill
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • David Gesswein
                ... Right, you have to use the rubout/delete key to correct a mistyped character. It will either do a backspace overwrite or print around the deleted
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                  On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 09:04:47AM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
                  >
                  > In PDP 8 OS/8 using a glass vt102 terminal with a backspace key, under
                  > standard configuration, use of backspace will generate an error even if
                  > your command looks correct before you hit enter
                  >
                  Right, you have to use the rubout/delete key to correct a mistyped
                  character. It will either do a backspace overwrite or print \ around
                  the deleted character based on the tty driver configuration/set command.
                • David Gesswein
                  ... Its still 110. It was reported that the punch was jamming so if someone wants to use is for a demo we should check it out at the next work day. I think its
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                    On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 11:34:05AM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
                    > The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232. I don't know if it was
                    > also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2. It should be possible to
                    > punch a tape of BASIC from the web to the modified machine's punch, and
                    > then load basic directly from the tape. You'd need an absolute loader in
                    > ROM or on tape as well. You could use a switch box to hop over to a glass
                    > terminal after the tape loads.
                    >
                    Its still 110. It was reported that the punch was jamming so if someone
                    wants to use is for a demo we should check it out at the next work day.
                    I think its only being used as a static exhibit right now.
                  • corey986
                    Can we set it to 8,n,1 or it is fixed at two stop bits. No big deal, we can simply put something inbetween to echo the data between the two removing the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                      Can we set it to 8,n,1 or it is fixed at two stop bits. No big deal, we can simply put something inbetween to "echo" the data between the two removing the stop bit and maybe changing the rate from 110. I have to investigate changing the briel from 9600 to 110 baud. The idea would be to get people to enjoy the fun of toggling in the boot loader and then watching basic load.

                      I think we are on to something that would be fun for the public, but not risk any real "vintage" stuff" since we would need a MARCH member to actually feed and run the teletype (the real vintage deal).

                      Let's really think about this and maybe make it a group project for VCF.

                      Cheers,
                      Corey



                      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, David Gesswein wrote:
                      >
                      > On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 11:34:05AM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
                      > > The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232. I don't know if it was
                      > > also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2. It should be possible to
                      > > punch a tape of BASIC from the web to the modified machine's punch, and
                      > > then load basic directly from the tape. You'd need an absolute loader in
                      > > ROM or on tape as well. You could use a switch box to hop over to a glass
                      > > terminal after the tape loads.
                      > >
                      > Its still 110. It was reported that the punch was jamming so if someone
                      > wants to use is for a demo we should check it out at the next work day.
                      > I think its only being used as a static exhibit right now.
                      >
                    • evan@snarc.net
                      ... I mostly agree. Definitely not letting anyone use our original copy of Altair 4K Basic. :)
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                        >> but not risk any real "vintage" stuff"

                        I mostly agree. Definitely not letting anyone use our original copy of Altair 4K Basic. :)
                      • who88777
                        Some of the embedded FPGA work I ve done really taught the value of this. Whenever possible I prefer to use the on chip block ram and not go external for cost
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                          Some of the embedded FPGA work I've done really taught the value of this. Whenever possible I prefer to use the on chip block ram and not go external for cost reasons. Every time I would forget to use the minimal printf() routine I'd run out of space for just code - let alone RAM as it linked in half the C standard library.

                          I've toyed with the idea of making a few Retro-On-A-Chip computers but I think the Briel model is a better way to go for recreating the old machines. BGA parts have no place in a retro machine.

                          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Neil Cherry wrote:
                          >
                          > On 01/08/2013 09:54 AM, corey986 wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I 100% agree. Having to "flip" switches or even type in the ocal/hex by hand has made me a
                          > > better programmer. This actually came up at dinner last night (I'm at training in Texas
                          > > right now) where we were talking about the "old" days and how people who lived through
                          > > toggling in a boot loader on a PDP8 seemed to be more efficient in their resource
                          > > utilization as programmers than the guys who started programming with Visual Basic who
                          > > tend to be sloppy in memory and resource usage. It was a pretty heated converstation
                          > > enhanced by wine and Fogo de Chao "Meat" high....
                          >
                          > This holds true of any restricted env such as a uC with limited resources.
                          >
                          > Of course when you've been around long enough and use larger computer resources
                          > you start to think about other limited resources such as time. As an Engineer
                          > (EE, System Engineer, etc.) you have to look at the overall picture .
                          >
                          > But I do agree that folks who have had to live with tight limits tend to
                          > be better overall Engineers.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
                          > http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
                          > http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
                          > Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
                          >
                        • billdeg@degnanco.com
                          Work from a copy of the abs loader and orig BASIC. It will take 30 minutes to load, so as I have said below, this is not a quick demo. Sent from Windows Mail
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                            Work from a copy of the abs loader and orig BASIC.  It will take 30 minutes to load, so as I have said below, this is not a quick demo.
                             
                            Sent from Windows Mail
                             
                            From: corey986
                            Sent: ‎January‎ ‎8‎, ‎2013 ‎12‎:‎42‎ ‎PM
                            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Altair 8800 Web Emulator
                             
                            Can we set it to 8,n,1 or it is fixed at two stop bits.  No big deal, we can simply put something inbetween to "echo" the data between the two removing the stop bit and maybe changing the rate from 110.  I have to investigate changing the briel from 9600 to 110 baud.  The idea would be to get people to enjoy the fun of toggling in the boot loader and then watching basic load.

                            I think we are on to something that would be fun for the public, but not risk any real "vintage" stuff" since we would need a MARCH member to actually feed and run the teletype (the real vintage deal).

                            Let's really think about this and maybe make it a group project for VCF.

                            Cheers,
                            Corey



                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, David Gesswein  wrote:
                            >
                            > On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 11:34:05AM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
                            > > The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232.  I don't know if it was
                            > > also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2.  It should be possible to
                            > > punch a tape of BASIC from the web to the modified machine's punch, and
                            > > then load basic directly from the tape.  You'd need an absolute loader in
                            > > ROM or on tape as well.  You could use a switch box to hop over to a glass
                            > > terminal after the tape loads.
                            > >
                            > Its still 110. It was reported that the punch was jamming so if someone
                            > wants to use is for a demo we should check it out at the next work day.
                            > I think its only being used as a static exhibit right now.
                            >




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                          • corey986
                            I think it will be fine with the time. I contacted Vince Briel and he s going to help us make the micro work with the teletype. I think this will be fun.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                              I think it will be fine with the time. I contacted Vince Briel and he's going to help us make the micro work with the teletype.

                              I think this will be fun. We could have a sign up sheet for people to toggle in the boot loader every 1/2 hour. Will give them real appreciation of "instant on".

                              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                              >
                              > Work from a copy of the abs loader and orig BASIC. It will take 30 minutes to load, so as I have said below, this is not a quick demo.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sent from Windows Mail
                              >
                              >
                              > From: corey986
                              > Sent: ‎January‎ ‎8‎, ‎2013 ‎12‎:‎42‎ ‎PM
                              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Altair 8800 Web Emulator
                              >
                              >
                              > Can we set it to 8,n,1 or it is fixed at two stop bits. No big deal, we can simply put something inbetween to "echo" the data between the two removing the stop bit and maybe changing the rate from 110. I have to investigate changing the briel from 9600 to 110 baud. The idea would be to get people to enjoy the fun of toggling in the boot loader and then watching basic load.
                              >
                              > I think we are on to something that would be fun for the public, but not risk any real "vintage" stuff" since we would need a MARCH member to actually feed and run the teletype (the real vintage deal).
                              >
                              > Let's really think about this and maybe make it a group project for VCF.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > Corey
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, David Gesswein wrote:
                              > >
                              > > On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 11:34:05AM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
                              > > > The teletype in the museum was converted to rs232. I don't know if it was
                              > > > also upgraded to a baud faster than 110 8/n/2. It should be possible to
                              > > > punch a tape of BASIC from the web to the modified machine's punch, and
                              > > > then load basic directly from the tape. You'd need an absolute loader in
                              > > > ROM or on tape as well. You could use a switch box to hop over to a glass
                              > > > terminal after the tape loads.
                              > > >
                              > > Its still 110. It was reported that the punch was jamming so if someone
                              > > wants to use is for a demo we should check it out at the next work day.
                              > > I think its only being used as a static exhibit right now.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • David Gesswein
                              ... Does it care about the keyboard parity? I m pretty sure I sent an email with what it is but so far I can t find it. If it does I ll search harder. ... The
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 01:25:07AM -0000, corey986 wrote:
                                > I think it will be fine with the time. I contacted Vince Briel and
                                > he's going to help us make the micro work with the teletype.
                                >
                                Does it care about the keyboard parity? I'm pretty sure I sent an email
                                with what it is but so far I can't find it. If it does I'll search harder.

                                > but not risk
                                > any real "vintage" stuff" since we would need a MARCH member to actually feed
                                > and run the teletype (the real vintage deal).
                                >
                                The mounting the tape on the reader is fiddly and I'm not sure how strong
                                the plastic cover is so may be better for a MARCH member for that. I would
                                think letting them type on the keyboard is fine.

                                It will be interesting to see how this goes. Long demos don't work well
                                during the normal show hours so its hard to really convey what usage
                                of these machines was really like.
                              • evan@snarc.net
                                ... Yes. We already do that. A few times, when people were experienced or just very interested, I demo d writing/reading to paper tape (just a little). But
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                  >> I would think letting them type on the keyboard is fine.

                                  Yes. We already do that.

                                  A few times, when people were experienced or just very interested, I demo'd writing/reading to paper tape (just a little).

                                  But it's been a while, and I forget how to do it!
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