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Re: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880

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  • Aliaga, Daniel G
    Detailed question: When the 880 is powered on should the fixed drive begin spinning immediately or after 15-20 seconds of some diagnostics. And how can I tell
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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      Detailed question:

      When the 880 is powered on should the fixed drive begin spinning immediately or after 15-20 seconds of some diagnostics.

      And how can I tell if it is spinning? I think I see the metal axis of the motor to which a belt is fastened and it does not rotate yet I get seek time out error...?

      D.




      On Oct 4, 2012, at 7:10 PM, "Dave McGuire" <Mcguire@...> wrote:

       


      They are internal. The DSD-880 has an 8" floppy drive and an 8" hard
      drive (SA-1000 interface if I remember correctly) and an in-chassis
      controller, formatter, and diagnostic system. It connects to a special
      bridge board in the host (Unibus or Qbus, the former is very rare) which
      presents a fairly high-level interface on a ribbon cable of 20-something
      pins. It's a one controller/one chassis system, and there are no
      (configurable) terminators on that interface.

      -Dave

      On 10/04/2012 06:17 PM, B. Degnan wrote:
      > Is there a drive terminator?
      >
      > -------- Original Message --------
      >> From: "Aliaga, Daniel G" <aliaga@...>
      >> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 5:54 PM
      >> To: "midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com"
      > <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Subject: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880
      >>
      >> All,
      >>
      >> I have a recently acquired DEC PDP 11/23 with DSD 880 (fixed drive +
      > floppy drive). All in superb condition and was working prior to shipping.
      > Now I am having an issue with the DSD 880 -- but I am not sure if it is
      > shipping damage, or me doing something wrong -- there are several options.
      >>
      >> In short, does someone have experience with these units with whom I could
      > chat more?
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >>
      >> -Daniel.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      --
      Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
      New Kensington, PA

    • Aliaga, Daniel G
      I have all the original manuals-- they are online too. D. On Oct 4, 2012, at 5:57 PM, Dave McGuire
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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        I have all the original manuals-- they are online too.

        D.




        On Oct 4, 2012, at 5:57 PM, "Dave McGuire" <Mcguire@...> wrote:

         

        On 10/04/2012 02:54 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
        > I have a recently acquired DEC PDP 11/23 with DSD 880 (fixed drive +
        > floppy drive). All in superb condition and was working prior to
        > shipping. Now I am having an issue with the DSD 880 -- but I am not
        > sure if it is shipping damage, or me doing something wrong -- there
        > are several options.
        >
        > In short, does someone have experience with these units with whom I
        > could chat more?

        I have a DSD-880, but have never powered it up. I used one (a
        different one) many years ago, but didn't do a whole lot of "admin"
        stuff with it since it was a machine at work. Great little subsystem.

        Have you been able to locate any documentation for it?

        -Dave

        --
        Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
        New Kensington, PA

      • Evan Koblentz
        ... Dan, Welcome to our list. Please introduce yourself. Also, we prefer bottom replies. - Evan K. / list benign dictator
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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          >> I have a recently acquired DEC PDP 1123 with DSD 880 (fixed drive + floppy drive)

          Dan,

          Welcome to our list. Please introduce yourself.

          Also, we prefer bottom replies.

          - Evan K. / list benign dictator
        • Dave McGuire
          ... I seem to recall them spinning up on powerup. ... Those drives are pretty loud. You should hear the spin-up whine . ... Oh, wait...Nearly all of the
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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            On 10/04/2012 10:09 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
            > Detailed question:
            >
            > When the 880 is powered on should the fixed drive begin spinning
            > immediately or after 15-20 seconds of some diagnostics.

            I seem to recall them spinning up on powerup.

            > And how can I tell if it is spinning?

            Those drives are pretty loud. You should hear the "spin-up whine".

            > I think I see the metal axis of
            > the motor to which a belt is fastened and it does not rotate yet I get
            > seek time out error...?

            Oh, wait...Nearly all of the drive types that shipped in DSD-880s have
            spindle locks. Are you certain that the spindle is unlocked?

            -Dave

            --
            Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
            New Kensington, PA
          • Dave McGuire
            ... Oh really?? The last time I looked around (at Bitsavers first) I found nothing. I guess, wow, that was probably 7-8 years ago though. 8-/ -Dave -- Dave
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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              On 10/04/2012 10:10 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
              >
              >
              > I have all the original manuals-- they are online too.

              Oh really?? The last time I looked around (at Bitsavers first) I
              found nothing.

              I guess, wow, that was probably 7-8 years ago though. 8-/

              -Dave

              --
              Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
              New Kensington, PA
            • Dave McGuire
              ... (translation: EVAN prefers bottom replies ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                On 10/04/2012 10:16 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
                >>> I have a recently acquired DEC PDP 1123 with DSD 880 (fixed drive + floppy drive)
                >
                > Dan,
                >
                > Welcome to our list. Please introduce yourself.
                >
                > Also, we prefer bottom replies.
                >
                > - Evan K. / list benign dictator

                (translation: EVAN prefers bottom replies ;))

                -Dave

                --
                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                New Kensington, PA
              • Aliaga, Daniel G
                Ok :) I am a vintage aficionado as you guys :). Have about ~50 computers in my collection, all worked when placed in collection and some I use for demos. Have
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                  Ok J

                   

                  I am a vintage aficionado as you guys J. Have about ~50 computers in my collection, all worked when placed in collection and some I use for demos. Have a dedicated room in the house. Have 70s and 80s computers (mostly 80s).

                   

                  I just got this DEC PDP – private sale, seems to be extremely well taken care of but something happened during shipping (maybe)? Was packed by UPS and they seemed to do a great job.

                   

                  One of the connectors inside the DSD unit was disconnected during shipping – does that mean it got jostled strongly? The connector is quite snug when connected, so I would assume it was kinda loose, because to loosen it with a “drop” it would have to been dropped from quite a height…

                   

                  Still trying several options.

                   

                  Yes, spindle and head were locked, both unlocked now I believe (using the instructions from the manual…).

                   

                  I live in West Lafayette – go Boilermakers!

                   

                  D.

                   

                   

                  From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz
                  Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 10:17 PM
                  To: MARCH Yahoo Midatlanticretro
                  Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880

                   

                   

                  >> I have a recently acquired DEC PDP 1123 with DSD 880 (fixed drive + floppy drive)

                  Dan,

                  Welcome to our list. Please introduce yourself.

                  Also, we prefer bottom replies.

                  - Evan K. / list benign dictator

                • Aliaga, Daniel G
                  Here you go: ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dsd/040034-01_DSD880x_Nov81.pdf D. From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                    Here you go:

                     

                    ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dsd/040034-01_DSD880x_Nov81.pdf

                     

                    D.

                     

                    From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
                    Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 10:19 PM
                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880

                     

                     

                    On 10/04/2012 10:10 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > I have all the original manuals-- they are online too.

                    Oh really?? The last time I looked around (at Bitsavers first) I
                    found nothing.

                    I guess, wow, that was probably 7-8 years ago though. 8-/

                    -Dave

                    --
                    Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                    New Kensington, PA

                  • Dave McGuire
                    ... And of course, the darned thing has been sitting on one of my own damn disk arrays for months. ;) (I have a bitsavers mirror here) -Dave -- Dave McGuire,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                      On 10/04/2012 11:14 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
                      > Here you go:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dsd/040034-01_DSD880x_Nov81.pdf

                      And of course, the darned thing has been sitting on one of my own damn
                      disk arrays for months. ;) (I have a bitsavers mirror here)

                      -Dave

                      --
                      Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                      New Kensington, PA
                    • Dave McGuire
                      ... Cool. Welcome! What sort of machines do you have, aside from that PDP-11? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                        On 10/04/2012 11:13 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
                        > I am a vintage aficionado as you guys J. Have about ~50 computers in my
                        > collection, all worked when placed in collection and some I use for
                        > demos. Have a dedicated room in th e house. Have 70s and 80s computers
                        > (mostly 80s).

                        Cool. Welcome! What sort of machines do you have, aside from that
                        PDP-11?

                        -Dave

                        --
                        Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                        New Kensington, PA
                      • Aliaga, Daniel G
                        So, after some debugging tonight, I am pretty sure: 1. The fixed drive does not spin on powerup or ever. 2. I think it waits to see if it spins,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                          So, after some debugging tonight, I am pretty sure:

                           

                           

                          1.       The fixed drive does not spin on powerup or ever.

                          2.       I think it waits to see if it spins, then gives a seek timeout error, and tries to boot from floppy. The seller did not know the status of the floppy drive, nor do I.

                          3.       In the back of the DSD 800 there is a fuse for the Winchester Drive. Fuse measures out to be ok but if I pull the fuse, I get the same symptoms. So this means either no power is going to the motor or the motor is not blown. I can turn the motor by hand.

                           

                          Somehow I don’t think ‘3’ is strictly shipping related, maybe bad luck?

                           

                          I guess next step is figure out power lines to fixed drive and measure for live voltage? Somewhat dangerous because its suck way in there and lots of dissemble needed.

                           

                          Any other suggestions that are less invasive? I see the motor has a ground line (but colored red) and then come cables going in/out (about 3 or 4).

                           

                          ??

                           

                          Does someone have a spare motor for this? With effort I might be able to make out the brand + model…

                           

                          D.

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
                          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 10:18 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880

                           

                           

                          On 10/04/2012 10:09 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:

                          > Detailed question:
                          >
                          > When the 880 is powered on should the fixed drive begin spinning
                          > immediately or after 15-20 seconds of some diagnostics.

                          I seem to recall them spinning up on powerup.

                          > And how can I tell if it is spinning?

                          Those drives are pretty loud. You should hear the "spin-up whine".

                          > I think I see the metal axis of
                          > the motor to which a belt is fastened and it does not rotate yet I get
                          > seek time out error...?

                          Oh, wait...Nearly all of the drive types that shipped in DSD-880s have
                          spindle locks. Are you certain that the spindle is unlocked?

                          -Dave

                          --
                          Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                          New Kensington, PA

                        • Aliaga, Daniel G
                          DEC PDP 8 and 11 Heathkit H89 Commodore/CBMs (e.g., PET 2001, etc) TRS 80 Model I Apple IIs, Apple III, Mac s, etc. IBMs: 5150, XT, PCJr, PS/2 Luggables:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 4, 2012
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                            DEC PDP 8 and 11

                            Heathkit H89

                            Commodore/CBMs (e.g., PET 2001, etc)

                            TRS 80 Model I

                            Apple IIs, Apple III, Mac’s, etc.

                            IBMs: 5150, XT, PCJr, PS/2

                            Luggables: Compaq I, IBM’s, Kaypros, Osborne, etc.

                            Home PCs: Atari’s, Commodore 64 and others, Timex, TI, Radio Shacks…

                            Software, manuals, etc…

                             

                            You?

                             

                            D.

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
                            Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 11:38 PM
                            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] DEC PDP 11 and DSD 880

                             

                             

                            On 10/04/2012 11:13 PM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:

                            > I am a vintage aficionado as you guys J. Have about ~50 computers in my
                            > collection, all worked when placed in collection and some I use for
                            > demos. Have a dedicated room in th e house. Have 70s and 80s computers
                            > (mostly 80s).

                            Cool. Welcome! What sort of machines do you have, aside from that
                            PDP-11?

                            -Dave

                            --
                            Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                            New Kensington, PA

                          • Dave McGuire
                            ... Nice, which models? (we know about the 11/23) ... Do you know of the SEBHC mailing list? ... Excellent! ... Cray YMP-EL94 (runnable) Cray YMP-EL98 (2x)
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 5, 2012
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                              On 10/05/2012 12:35 AM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
                              > DEC PDP 8 and 11

                              Nice, which models? (we know about the 11/23)

                              > Heathkit H89

                              Do you know of the SEBHC mailing list?

                              > Commodore/CBMs (e.g., PET 2001, etc)
                              > TRS 80 Model I
                              > Apple IIs, Apple III, Mac’s, etc.
                              > IBMs: 5150, XT, PCJr, PS/2
                              > Luggables: Compaq I, IBM’s, Kaypros, Osborne, etc.
                              > Home PCs: Atari’s, Commodore 64 and others, Timex, TI, Radio Shacks…
                              > Software, manuals, etc…

                              Excellent!

                              > You?

                              Hooboy. ;) I'm sure I've forgotten a few (this is a big place), but:

                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Old systems considered part of the "collection" for preservation and study:
                              -----------------
                              Cray YMP-EL94 (runnable)
                              Cray YMP-EL98 (2x)
                              Cray J916 8/128 (runnable)
                              Cray J916 4/128 (not yet runnable)

                              DEC DECsystem-2020 (PDP-10) (2x)
                              DEC PDP-8/e (three, two runnable)
                              DEC PDP-8/m (runnable)
                              DEC PDP-8/a
                              Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (tiny PDP-8 SBC)
                              DEC PDP-11/03 (many, some runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/04 (two, one runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/05
                              DEC PDP-11/23 (several, some runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/24 (runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/34a (2x, one runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/44 (4x)
                              DEC PDP-11/50
                              DEC PDP-11/53 (2x, runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/70 (runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/73 (several, some runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/83 (runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/84 (3x, one runnable)
                              DEC PDP-11/94 (not runnable)
                              DEC VT180 "Robin" (not running, need floppy cable)
                              DEC VAX-11/730
                              DEC VAX-11/750
                              DEC MicroVAX-I
                              DEC MicroVAX-II/VAXstation-II (many in various states)
                              DEC MicroVAX-2000 (several in various states)
                              DEC MicroVAX-3 (several in various states)
                              DEC MicroVAX/VAXstation 3100 (countless, in various states)
                              DEC MicroVAX-3100/80
                              DEC VAXstation4000-VLC (2x, runnable)
                              DEC VAXstation4000-60 (2x, runnable)
                              DEC VAXstation4000-90 (2x, runnable)
                              DEC VAX4000-300 (two, runnable)
                              DEC VAX4000-400 (2x, runnable)
                              DEC VAX4000-500 (runnable)
                              DEC VAX4000-600 (runnable)
                              DEC VAX4000-700a (2x, runnable)
                              DEC VAX7000-720 (runnable)
                              DEC VAX8250 (runnable)
                              DEC rtVAX-300 on 6U VME module
                              DEC DECmate-I
                              DEC DECmate-II
                              DEC DECmate-III+
                              DEC Professional 350
                              DEC Professional 380
                              DEC DECstation-2100
                              DEC DECstation-3100 (several)
                              TONS AND TONS (literally) of VAX & PDP parts, enough to build dozens of
                              systems
                              one or two older Alpha 3000-series machines
                              Many others...been into DEC for a LONG time, got my first PDP 30yrs ago.

                              The standard complement of Commodore, Atari, and Apple machines

                              Floating Point Systems AP-180V (VAX-interfaced version of AP-120)

                              IBM RT (tower chassis, runnable)
                              IBM RT (desktop chassis, runnable)
                              IBM RS/6000s (several, various models, some old, some not)
                              IMSAI 8080 (runnable)
                              SWTPC 6800 (3rd-party chassis)
                              TRS-80 models I, II, III, 4, 16, CoCo, CoCo2, MC-10
                              HP-85
                              HP-87XM
                              HP-2108A

                              Kaypro-II
                              Kaypro-10
                              Kaypro-16
                              Osborne 1 (2x)
                              Osborne Vixen
                              Commodore PET 2001 (non-Chiclet)
                              Heathkit H-8
                              Heathkit H-89 (3x)
                              NEC APC
                              Olivetti M20
                              Burroughs B80 (2x)
                              Data General S/280
                              IBM S/370 model 9375
                              IBM System/36 model 5360
                              Heath H-1 analog computer (tubes!)
                              Comdyna GP-6 analog computer
                              Symbolics 3640 Lisp Machine (not running)
                              Symbolics 3645 Lisp Machine (not running)
                              Symbolics XL1201 Lisp Machine (running)

                              SGI Origin 2000 (dual-chassis, rack config)
                              SGI O2 (3x)

                              Several Sun 2/170 board sets (no chassis anymore, sigh)
                              Several Sun 3/1xx, 3/2xx, and 4/xxx systems
                              Many Sun SPARCstation-1/-1+/-2/-IPC/-IPX/-LX/-Classic/-5/-10/-20 systems
                              No-name Transputer array, 16x T800 transputers w/ISA interface

                              Lots of single-board computers, processor eval & development boards for:
                              - Am2901
                              - 8085
                              - 8086
                              - Z80 (3x, my homebrew)
                              - 6800
                              - 68HC05
                              - 68HC11
                              - 6502

                              ASR-33 Teletype
                              Friden Flexowriter SPS

                              Countless peripherals...disk and tape drives, printers, terminals..

                              -------------------------------

                              Production systems
                              (how I put dinner on the table)
                              -------------------------------
                              Core i7-Quad desktop running Linux (primary desktop system)
                              Lenovo V570 laptop, Core i5 running Linux
                              Sun Fire V480 (4x US-III+ CPUs, 32GB, does all the heavy lifting)
                              Sun T1000
                              Sun Netra V100 (DNS, firewall)
                              HP DL585 quad dual-core Opteron (VMware host)
                              RS/6000 397, hosting a P/390 running OS/390 and VM/ESA (software
                              development)


                              Non-production systems
                              (modern or nearly so, but not currently involved in making a living)
                              -----------------------------------
                              Cray SV1
                              IBM z/890
                              SGI Origin 3000
                              About six large Sun FirePlane-based systems (SF3800, SF4800, SF6800)
                              AlphaServer DS10L, VMS
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                              -Dave

                              --
                              Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                              New Kensington, PA
                            • Dave McGuire
                              ... Have you checked for a shipping lock? ... Ahh ok, so no spindle lock at least. Check for a shipping lock on the head carriage. BUT...be very careful
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 5, 2012
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                                On 10/05/2012 12:30 AM, Aliaga, Daniel G wrote:
                                > So, after some debugging tonight, I am pretty sure:
                                >
                                > 1. The fixed drive does not spin on powerup or ever.
                                >
                                > 2. I think it waits to see if it spins, then gives a seek timeout
                                > error, and tries to boot from floppy. The seller did not know the status
                                > of the floppy drive, nor do I.

                                Have you checked for a shipping lock?

                                > 3. In the back of the DSD 800 there is a fuse for the Winchester
                                > Drive. Fuse measures out to be ok but if I pull the fuse, I get the same
                                > symptoms. So this means either no power is going to the motor or the
                                > motor is not blown. I can turn the motor by hand.

                                Ahh ok, so no spindle lock at least. Check for a shipping lock on the
                                head carriage. BUT...be very careful rotating the spindle by hand! In
                                some drive designs, turning it backward can cause the head to dig into
                                the media.

                                > I guess next step is figure out power lines to fixed drive and measure
                                > for live voltage? Somewhat dangerous because its suck way in there and
                                > lots of dissemble needed.

                                I think you're going to end up needing to disassemble it anyway.

                                -Dave

                                --
                                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                New Kensington, PA
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