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Re: [midatlanticretro] Did Bill Gates Steal the Heart of DOS?

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  • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
    ... Nowhere did I state that the IEEE Spectrum was commercial news media. Clueless readers? ;) I used like which implies it was a simile. ... C mon. You
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 2, 2012
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      "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> writes:

      >>> It read, to me anyway, like the typical newsworthy investigative
      >reporting of today's commercial news media.
      >
      >To me the problem is clueless readers. :)
      >
      >Serious comment, though: - It's dumb to lump together ALL commercial
      >news media. As you know, that is my career, and your comment is
      >offensive. I could just as easily say ALL programmers are (fill in
      >offensive comment). - It's not a news article! It is clearly labeled as
      >being the work of the owner of the company that makes the forensic
      >software tools in question. - IEEE Spectrum is not commercial news
      >media. It's a membership magazine of a trade association.

      Nowhere did I state that the IEEE Spectrum was commercial news media.
      Clueless readers? ;) I used "like" which implies it was a simile.



      >So, next time you're going to insult my entire industry (of which this
      >story isn't part), do some basic homework first.

      C'mon. You know that comment was NOT directed at you, nor at the
      specific news media agency in which you are employed.

      It's like stating that all lawyers are sleezy. We all know that's
      not true. Some are complete scumbags! :)
    • joshbensadon
      ... Bill, Thank You, your post and this article link by Sol Libes is the only good thing that came out of this thread. I did not waste my time reading that
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 2, 2012
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        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's an article by Sol Libes on the subject
        > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/MicroSystemsJournalOriginsMS-DOS.pdf
        >

        Bill, Thank You, your post and this article link by Sol Libes is the only good thing that came out of this thread.

        I did not waste my time reading that other article entirely, I just glanced at it and saw crap to put behind a FLASHY HEAD LINE that is suppose to entice readers. These are the head lines that belong in the National Enquirer, along side with "TRANSISTORS REVERSED ENGINEERED FROM UFO TECHNOLOGY"

        Cheers,
        Josh
      • Evan Koblentz
        ... I would like to hear Herb s opinion.
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 2, 2012
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          >> This is what I assumed what the true story. Bare in mind the 16-bit 8-bit thing central to the diff btwn MS-DOS and CP/M.

          I would like to hear Herb's opinion.
        • Evan Koblentz
          ... That one s true. :) What really IS true is this: when Bell Labs perfected (not invented ) a (not the ) transistor, their work was partially funded by
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2012
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            >> "TRANSISTORS REVERSED ENGINEERED FROM UFO TECHNOLOGY"

            That one's true. :)

            What really IS true is this: when Bell Labs perfected (not "invented") a (not "the") transistor, their work was partially funded by the U.S. government, and specifically by Camp Evans. And when the BL's work was announced in a semi-public way, it was Camp Evans' chief scientist Harold Zahl who led the effort for it to be public rather than kept secret.

            This is well documented in the book "Crystal Fire" which I highly recommend.

            It's a good thing that happened. As the book further explains, the Navy was six months from making the same technology. Had the Navy done it first, then who knows, it might have been declared secret after all.

            Think where we'd be today if transistors were a U.S. military secret for 5-10 years....
          • Evan Koblentz
            ... It s a running joke in my company. We publish more than a dozen of the nation s top magazines for lawyers. Many of our hundreds of reporters are themselves
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 2, 2012
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              >> It's like stating that all lawyers are sleezy. We all know that's not true. Some are complete scumbags! :)

              It's a running joke in my company. We publish more than a dozen of the nation's top magazines for lawyers. Many of our hundreds of reporters are themselves law school graduates. "What do you call someone who's a lawyer AND a journalist? Colleague!" ;)

              One person on my particular magazine is an attorney, journalist, and programmer -- all in one. Fortunately he has a good sense of humor.

              < non-subtle revenge> Anyway ... we all know D|I|G|I|T|A|L invented law, news, and software. < / non-subtle revenge>

              ;)
            • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
              ... Does it discuss Ohl s work/discoveries at Bell Labs nearly a decade prior?
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> writes:

                >>> "TRANSISTORS REVERSED ENGINEERED FROM UFO TECHNOLOGY"
                >
                >That one's true. :)
                >
                >What really IS true is this: when Bell Labs perfected (not "invented") a
                >(not "the") transistor, their work was partially funded by the U.S.
                >government, and specifically by Camp Evans. And when the BL's work was
                >announced in a semi-public way, it was Camp Evans' chief scientist
                >Harold Zahl who led the effort for it to be public rather than kept
                >secret.
                >
                >This is well documented in the book "Crystal Fire" which I highly
                >recommend.

                Does it discuss Ohl's work/discoveries at Bell Labs nearly a decade
                prior?
              • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                ... Does this open the door for more lawyer s jokes here! :) ... That d be d|i|g|i|t|a|l as the letters were always lowercase. ;) DEC used law and laws, were
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                  "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> writes:

                  >>> It's like stating that all lawyers are sleezy. We all know that's
                  >not true. Some are complete scumbags! :)
                  >
                  >It's a running joke in my company. We publish more than a dozen of the
                  >nation's top magazines for lawyers. Many of our hundreds of reporters
                  >are themselves law school graduates. "What do you call someone who's a
                  >lawyer AND a journalist? Colleague!" ;)

                  Does this open the door for more lawyer's jokes here! :)



                  >One person on my particular magazine is an attorney, journalist, and
                  >programmer -- all in one. Fortunately he has a good sense of humor.
                  >
                  >< non-subtle revenge> Anyway ... we all know D|I|G|I|T|A|L invented law,
                  >news, and software. < / non-subtle revenge>

                  That'd be d|i|g|i|t|a|l as the letters were always lowercase. ;) DEC used
                  law and laws, were in the news, and developed software.

                  Revenge?
                • Evan Koblentz
                  ... Forget it.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                    >>> < / non-subtle revenge> >>

                    >> Revenge?

                    Forget it.
                  • Bob Schwier
                    ... bs ... From: system@great-escape.tmesis.com Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Did Bill Gates Steal the Heart of DOS?
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                      |Never liked\ Shockley. If you remember his racism toward the end, you know why.
                      bs\

                      --- On Fri, 8/3/12, system@... <system@...> wrote:

                      From: system@... <system@...>
                      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Did Bill Gates Steal the Heart of DOS?
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 6:36 AM

                       

                      "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> writes:

                      >>> "TRANSISTORS REVERSED ENGINEERED FROM UFO TECHNOLOGY"
                      >
                      >That one's true. :)
                      >
                      >What really IS true is this: when Bell Labs perfected (not "invented") a
                      >(not "the") transistor, their work was partially funded by the U.S.
                      >government, and specifically by Camp Evans. And when the BL's work was
                      >announced in a semi-public way, it was Camp Evans' chief scientist
                      >Harold Zahl who led the effort for it to be public rather than kept
                      >secret.
                      >
                      >This is well documented in the book "Crystal Fire" which I highly
                      >recommend.

                      Does it discuss Ohl's work/discoveries at Bell Labs nearly a decade
                      prior?

                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... I agree. Nor would I defend the alleged racism of Edison or IBM, nor the overt racism of Ford ... but that doesn t impact their contributions to history
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                        >> |Never liked\ Shockley. If you remember his racism toward the end, you know why.

                        I agree.

                        Nor would I defend the alleged racism of Edison or IBM, nor the overt racism of Ford ... but that doesn't impact their contributions to history and technology.
                      • Dave McGuire
                        ... Eh, Edison. WAY WAY overrated. Be careful there my friend. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                          On 08/03/2012 06:12 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
                          >>> |Never liked\ Shockley. If you remember his racism toward the end, you know why.
                          >
                          > I agree.
                          >
                          > Nor would I defend the alleged racism of Edison or IBM, nor the overt racism of Ford ... but that doesn't impact their contributions to history and technology.

                          Eh, Edison. WAY WAY overrated. Be careful there my friend.

                          -Dave

                          --
                          Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                          New Kensington, PA
                        • Evan Koblentz
                          ... I know -- the Gates of his day. But I m biased -- grew up in Edison Township! (It was the Menlo Park section of Raritan Township until 1954 when they
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 3, 2012
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                            >> Eh, Edison. WAY WAY overrated. Be careful there my friend.

                            I know -- the Gates of his day. But I'm biased -- grew up in Edison Township! (It was the Menlo Park section of Raritan Township until 1954 when they renamed it. No relation to the current Raritan Township which is two counties away.)
                          • s100doctor
                            ... Evan Koblentz ... I happened to see this subject thread today; I read the IEEE article in question. I considered writing an opinion to respond to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
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                              Bill Degnan wrote:
                              >
                              >> [Sol Libes's article] is what I assumed what the true story.
                              >>Bare in mind the 16-bit 8-bit thing central to the
                              >> diff btwn MS-DOS and CP/M.
                              >
                              "Evan Koblentz"
                              > I would like to hear Herb's opinion.
                              >

                              I happened to see this subject thread today; I read the IEEE article in question. I considered writing an "opinion" to respond to Evan's question to me. I wrote some stuff, and then threw it out. Here's some short "opinions", some of which are readily verifiable, some more factual than others. I'm not looking for arguments.

                              1) My response would have been long(er), tedious and preachy. I'm not interested in doing that on request.

                              2) The details of what I might have posted, most anyone interested over 50 would know first hand; but persons under 30 would not know, and may not care about. If you are interested in my "take" on the period, I have a Web site about CP/M development and DRI:

                              http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/index.html

                              Note: It's well established that Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products, read DRI manuals and wrote what eventually became "MS-DOS". Like other programmers of the period, he wrote an OS based on features of another OS. No source copy needed, no binary copy needed. It's even a matter of court testimony that he did that. No court has established he did any more that that. Again - look it up, I won't argue about it.

                              3) The premise of the question is mostly incorrect. It's really an entry into an old old discussion about how Microsoft came to "have" MS-DOS, and how Digital Research (of CP/M and Gary Kildall), didn't
                              initially provide IBM with an 8086 operating system. Anyone interested in that subject, can read various accounts, draw various conclusions. It's an exercise in "winners" and "losers" which I don't care for.

                              4) The IEEE published article, is not very good technically. There's nothing particularly modern or forensic, about doing what amounts to binary comparisons and ASCII dumps. The code he looks at, is mostly later than the time a "copy" would have been made - when 86-DOS was created by Tim Patterson. Any code subsequently produced by "Bill Gates" (Microsoft) would have avoided any DRI sources and binaries for obvious reasons.

                              So: in the end, the author of the IEEE article, looks at the wrong things, with familiar methods, for the wrong reasons, and - naturally - finds nothing. Why fuss over a null result?

                              The answer is, of course, the subtext of the question - how Bill Gates benefited from some business decisions, and Kildall did not. And yet, Kildall died a multimillionaire. He did other things of note than CP/M. His software ran on a million computers, when that was a lot of computers. DRI was sold for millions, its intellectual property continued to have value - and some of it is still in use today. So I'd say he did pretty well.

                              I wrote up something of Kildall's technical legacy, because it's MYlegacy, and because it's worth preservation. Why did that author of that IEEE article, write HIS article? His interests are clear, and disappointing; his results of little value.

                              Herb Johnson
                              retrotechnology.com
                            • Evan Koblentz
                              ... Good point.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
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                                >> So: in the end, the author of the IEEE article, looks at the wrong things, with familiar methods, for the wrong reasons, and - naturally - finds nothing. Why fuss over a null result?

                                Good point.
                              • Neil Cherry
                                ... I found the forensics portion to be laughable, then I found out he worked for a company that sells forensic tools and I was dumbfounded. Someone didn t
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
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                                  On 08/10/2012 06:05 PM, s100doctor wrote:

                                  > 4) The IEEE published article, is not very good technically. There's nothing particularly
                                  > modern or forensic, about doing what amounts to binary comparisons and ASCII dumps. The
                                  > code he looks at, is mostly later than the time a "copy" would have been made - when
                                  > 86-DOS was created by Tim Patterson. Any code subsequently produced by "Bill Gates"
                                  > (Microsoft) would have avoided any DRI sources and binaries for obvious reasons.

                                  I found the forensics portion to be laughable, then I found out he
                                  worked for a company that sells forensic tools and I was dumbfounded.
                                  Someone didn't live through that time and understand the context of
                                  coding in the env.

                                  If you look at the source code of much of the software written in
                                  the early portion of of the micro age you might find that many folks
                                  had similar 4, 5 or 6 character labels and variables. 8 character labels
                                  and names was a luxury (like a 4K card!). How many folks know why so
                                  much software such software uses i,j, & k for index variables? I expect
                                  more than a few on this list will.


                                  BTW, I only coded starting in 1980. So I'm more through the middle
                                  kingdom of the micro age. ;-)

                                  --
                                  Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
                                  http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
                                  http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
                                  Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
                                • Mike Loewen
                                  ... FORTRAN. I still do it, in C. Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
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                                    On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Neil Cherry wrote:

                                    > If you look at the source code of much of the software written in
                                    > the early portion of of the micro age you might find that many folks
                                    > had similar 4, 5 or 6 character labels and variables. 8 character labels
                                    > and names was a luxury (like a 4K card!). How many folks know why so
                                    > much software such software uses i,j, & k for index variables? I expect
                                    > more than a few on this list will.

                                    FORTRAN. I still do it, in C.


                                    Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                    Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
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