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So... Who's coming this weekend? And what should I bring?

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  • Mr Ian Primus
    I might have missed it, but I didn t see too many people confirm that yes, they are coming this weekend. I m planning on attending, and I m still trying to
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
      I might have missed it, but I didn't see too many people confirm that yes, they are coming this weekend.

      I'm planning on attending, and I'm still trying to figure out what to bring. I know two people had mentioned 3B2 software (Matt and someone else), which I have and can bring along if they're going to be there. If anything, I do intend to bring it so I can get the club's 3B2 running properly.

      I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running, but I don't know if we'll have the resources to fix it - unless someone has enough card extenders to bring a hex width card out of the chassis to troubleshoot. The problem with the computer is on the control board - M7261.

      I know there will be much Commodore-ing, I suppose I could bring along something related, but I've already fixed pretty much all my Commodore stuff.

      -Ian
    • Evan Koblentz
      ... Around a dozen people (maybe not all at once; some will trickle in/out), and probably a few more for Felsenstein s visit. ... You re welcome to use our two
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
        >> I didn't see too many people confirm that yes, they are coming this weekend.

        Around a dozen people (maybe not all at once; some will trickle in/out), and probably a few more for Felsenstein's visit.

        >> I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running

        You're welcome to use our two /05s for diagnostic purposes. At least one works fine; the other mostly works (Degnan can elaborate.) Mike Ross used them to help fix the /05 frontend to his /15 at VCF last month.
      • David Gesswein
        ... I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double will fit together. I ll try to check tonight with my 8/A. With the 11 do you have the over the
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
          On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 06:05:15AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
          >
          > I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running, but I don't know if we'll
          > have the resources to fix it - unless someone has enough card extenders
          > to bring a hex width card out of the chassis to troubleshoot.
          >
          I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double will fit together.
          I'll try to check tonight with my 8/A. With the 11 do you have the over
          the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult?
        • B. Degnan
          ... You re welcome to use our two /05s for diagnostic purposes. At least one works fine; the other mostly works (Degnan can elaborate.) Mike Ross used them to
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012

            >> I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running

            You're welcome to use our two /05s for diagnostic purposes. At least one works fine; the other mostly works (Degnan can elaborate.) Mike Ross used them to help fix the /05 frontend to his /15 at VCF last month.


            The 11/05's worked when I last had them, but they only had one core memory card to share between them.  The open unit has the bad core memory card.

            bd
          • B. Degnan
            Ian, I can bring that DataPoint terminal if you d like to take a look at it :-) At least three of us should be there by 12-1 Sat. bd ... From: Mr Ian Primus
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
              Ian,
              I can bring that DataPoint terminal if you'd like to take a look at it :-)

              At least three of us should be there by 12-1 Sat.

              bd




              From: "Mr Ian Primus" <ian_primus@...>
              Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:32 AM
              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [midatlanticretro] So... Who's coming this weekend? And what should I bring?


              I might have missed it, but I didn't see too many people confirm that yes, they are coming this weekend.

              I'm planning on attending, and I'm still trying to figure out what to bring. I know two people had mentioned 3B2 software (Matt and someone else), which I have and can bring along if they're going to be there. If anything, I do intend to bring it so I can get the club's 3B2 running properly.

              I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running, but I don't know if we'll have the resources to fix it - unless someone has enough card extenders to bring a hex width card out of the chassis to troubleshoot. The problem with the computer is on the control board - M7261.

              I know there will be much Commodore-ing, I suppose I could bring along something related, but I've already fixed pretty much all my Commodore stuff.

              -Ian


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            • Evan Koblentz
              ... the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult? I don t know. Bill? ... From: David Gesswein Sender:
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
                >> With the 11 do you have the over
                the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult?

                I don't know. Bill?

                -----Original Message-----
                From: David Gesswein <djg@...>
                Sender: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:09:30
                To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                Reply-To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] So... Who's coming this weekend? And what
                should I bring?

                On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 06:05:15AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
                >
                > I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running, but I don't know if we'll
                > have the resources to fix it - unless someone has enough card extenders
                > to bring a hex width card out of the chassis to troubleshoot.
                >
                I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double will fit together.
                I'll try to check tonight with my 8/A. With the 11 do you have the over
                the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult?



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              • Mr Ian Primus
                ... I already know which board is bad - it s the control board - M7261. I also know that the computer will run with a good one installed. The problem I have is
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
                  --- On Thu, 6/28/12, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:

                  > >> I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running
                  >
                  > You're welcome to use our two /05s for diagnostic purposes.
                  > At least one works fine; the other mostly works (Degnan can
                  > elaborate.) Mike Ross used them to help fix the /05 frontend
                  > to his /15 at VCF last month.

                  I already know which board is bad - it's the control board - M7261. I also know that the computer will run with a good one installed. The problem I have is trying to troubleshoot and repair the control board.

                  -Ian
                • Mr Ian Primus
                  ... No. In fact, there s nothing connected to the control board at all. The CPU consists of two boards. The front panel plugs in through the data paths board.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
                    --- On Thu, 6/28/12, David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:

                    > I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double
                    > will fit together.
                    > I'll try to check tonight with my 8/A. With the 11 do you
                    > have the over
                    > the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more
                    > difficult?

                    No. In fact, there's nothing connected to the control board at all. The CPU consists of two boards. The front panel plugs in through the data paths board. All interboard communication is done through the backplane.

                    -Ian
                  • B. Degnan
                    march s 05 is the low profile. not easy to get to the board without a riser ... From: Evan Koblentz Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:08 PM
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
                      march's 05 is the low profile.  not easy to get to the board without a riser




                      From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
                      Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:08 PM
                      To: "MARCH Yahoo Midatlanticretro" <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] So... Who's coming this weekend? And what should I bring?


                      >> With the 11 do you have the over
                      the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult?

                      I don't know. Bill?

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: David Gesswein <djg@...>
                      Sender: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:09:30
                      To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                      Reply-To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] So... Who's coming this weekend? And what
                      should I bring?

                      On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 06:05:15AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
                      >
                      > I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running, but I don't know if we'll
                      > have the resources to fix it - unless someone has enough card extenders
                      > to bring a hex width card out of the chassis to troubleshoot.
                      >
                      I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double will fit together.
                      I'll try to check tonight with my 8/A. With the 11 do you have the over
                      the top connectors that make working on 8 cpu cards more difficult?



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                    • David Gesswein
                      ... I tested with my 8/A and its tight but it looks like the quad and double will make a hex.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 28, 2012
                        On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 09:45:43AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
                        > --- On Thu, 6/28/12, David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I should be able to bring enough. I think my hex and double
                        > > will fit together.
                        >
                        I tested with my 8/A and its tight but it looks like the quad and double
                        will make a hex.
                      • s100doctor
                        ... There s really no time to Q&A you about the problem . Here s my unasked for advice. You will need an oscilloscope, docs for BOTH boards with schematics, a
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 29, 2012
                          Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > >> I really would love to get my PDP-11/05 running
                          > >
                          > I already know which board is bad - it's the control board -
                          >M7261. I also know that the computer will run with a good
                          >one installed. The problem I have is trying to troubleshoot
                          > and repair the control board.

                          There's really no time to Q&A you about "the problem". Here's my unasked for advice.

                          You will need an oscilloscope, docs for BOTH boards with schematics, a hex extender. A book of TTL logic data would help (I will bring that for my use.) And (excuse me) some clue about using these. But I don't think a public email discussion, is a very good place to discuss how to repair a control board or to describe whatever difficulties you yourself may have in its repair. Certainly not in 24 hours.

                          So I frankly think your task, is to contact privately some of the attending persons, to see how helpful they can be IN DETAIL. Someone will have to commit to bring extender cards. Evan has committed to provide the MARCH 11/05. I think you should scrounge up the M7260 Data Path Module's and M7261"s docs, but let's see.....

                          http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/

                          may have sufficient hardware docs, otherwise look around if you don't have them already. "bring" them on a laptop.

                          These old cards go by on eBay but there's none there today.

                          You will apparently have an opportunity to compare your NONworking 11/05, to a WORKING 11/05, side by side. Take advantage of that as best you can, down to the chip and logic level.

                          Herb Johnson
                        • Mike Loewen
                          I don t need these for my projects, but I can bring any of the following: Tektronix 485 scope (dual-trace, 350MHz analog) HP 1650B Logic Analyzer Advantest
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 29, 2012
                            I don't need these for my projects, but I can bring any of the
                            following:

                            Tektronix 485 scope (dual-trace, 350MHz analog)
                            HP 1650B Logic Analyzer
                            Advantest TR5823H Universal Counter
                            Data I/O 29B EPROM Programmer

                            Drop me a note if you want me to bring any of them.


                            Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                            Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                          • Mr Ian Primus
                            ... I ve already done a fair bit of troubleshooting. The only thing I lack is card extenders. I ve got the schematics and the microcode listings printed out,
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 29, 2012
                              --- On Fri, 6/29/12, s100doctor <hjohnson@...> wrote:

                              > You will need an oscilloscope, docs for BOTH boards with
                              > schematics, a hex extender. A book of TTL logic data would
                              > help (I will bring that for my use.) And (excuse me) some
                              > clue about using these. But I don't think a public email
                              > discussion, is a very good place to discuss how to repair a
                              > control board or to describe whatever difficulties you
                              > yourself may have in its repair. Certainly not in 24 hours.

                              I've already done a fair bit of troubleshooting. The only thing I lack is card extenders. I've got the schematics and the microcode listings printed out, and I did spend a fair bit of time checking the TTL associated with the nonworking function (deposit[1]). I do not fully understand the microcoded portion of the logic, although I have verified the bits I do understand. Another set of (experienced) eyes would also definitely be beneficial here.

                              Lacking card extenders, I've had to extend the individual signals from specific chips to probe them. This gets tedious and is difficult. I'm pretty sure I can find the fault, given full access to the board while it's installed in the computer.

                              > Someone will have to commit to bring extender cards.

                              One person has already mentioned that they'll bring some extenders.

                              > You will apparently have an opportunity to compare your
                              > NONworking 11/05, to a WORKING 11/05, side by side. Take
                              > advantage of that as best you can, down to the chip and
                              > logic level.

                              That was how I was able to quickly and easily verify that my fault lies on the Control board. I've got a friend that has a working machine. We've compared some things between the machines, and done some swapping and testing, but again, lack of card extenders makes individual logic checks tedious and difficult. I DO know that my computer works properly when a functional Control board is installed. And that the symptoms move to a working computer when my faulty Control board is installed.

                              But yes, having card extenders, and a working control board borrowed from one of MARCH's machines would greatly help to clarify what is supposed to be happening on the board when the deposit switch is pressed.

                              -Ian


                              [1] For those of you playing along at home, the fault is that when the deposit switch is pressed, the address increments but nothing is written to memory. Examine works. The CPU can write to memory itself - if you write a program that will alter memory when run, toggle it in with a good Control board, then swap in the faulty Control board, and run the program, it WILL write to memory. The only fault is that the deposit switch itself does not write to memory. I've tested the flip flops and gates connected directly to the deposit switch, and everything appears to function correctly. *Part* of the problem is that I don't fully understand exactly how the microcoded portion of the logic is supposed to work, however. Another difficulty is that the available schematics are of very poor quality and are difficult to read in places. Either they're bad scans, or just good scans of bad photocopies. Either way, they do add an extra level of frustration to an already
                              difficult process.
                            • Dave McGuire
                              ... 11/05 CPU cards don t. Precisely three have hit eBay in the past 4-5 years. The 11/05 is one of the earliest PDP-11s, from 1972. Not many of these
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 29, 2012
                                On 06/29/2012 11:06 AM, s100doctor wrote:
                                > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/
                                >
                                > may have sufficient hardware docs, otherwise look around if you don't have them already. "bring" them on a laptop.
                                >
                                > These old cards go by on eBay but there's none there today.

                                11/05 CPU cards don't. Precisely three have hit eBay in the past 4-5
                                years. The 11/05 is one of the earliest PDP-11s, from 1972. Not many
                                of these systems were made (comparatively speaking), and they dried up
                                many years ago.

                                Other Unibus cards, appropriate for use in that system, aren't tough
                                to find. The two CPU boards, though, really need to be repaired because
                                finding replacements is nearly impossible now.

                                -Dave

                                --
                                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                New Kensington, PA
                              • s100doctor
                                Glad Ian has done a fair amount of testing and diagnosis down to the chips. But...it s too much work to diagnose chips by email. (shrug) so I respect his
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 30, 2012
                                  Glad Ian has done a fair amount of testing and diagnosis down to the chips. But...it's too much work to diagnose chips by email. (shrug) so I respect his analysis but won't reply to it.

                                  Reading between the lines, Ian needs a set of bus extenders to expedite his work, and maybe better schematics. Someone with 11/05 prints or photocopies of them would expedite his work.

                                  I misplaced my DEC bus extenders, I actually looked for them. But Gesswein will bring his.

                                  Herb
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