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Re: Booting a NorthStar Horizon

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  • wb4jfi
    The ten sector holes are evenly spaced around the media. There is an eleventh hole midway between two others, I ve always assumed this is the index hole,
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 3, 2012
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      The ten sector holes are evenly spaced around the media. There is an eleventh hole midway between two others, I've always assumed this is the "index" hole, that resets/starts the count. Somewhere I used to have a full set of docs for both the N* controller, and the SA-400 drives, but I think that did not make the last move.
      Terry


      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, joshbensadon <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Terry,
      >
      > I can't help but to ask a little more about the hard sectored disks.
      > Do they use 10 evenly spaced holes? or is 9 evenly spaced with the 10th hole being a double holed Sector 0 index? The question I'm trying to ask is how do they determine Sector 0?
      >
      > Thanks
      > Josh
      >
      >
      <snip>
    • B Degnan
      Yes, it s the index hole used as a starting reference to id the sectors. This hole is present in both hard and soft-sectored disks.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 3, 2012
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        Yes, it's the index hole used as a starting reference to id the
        sectors. This hole is present in both hard and soft-sectored disks.


        At 02:12 PM 6/3/2012, you wrote:
        >The ten sector holes are evenly spaced around the media. There is
        >an eleventh hole midway between two others, I've always assumed this
        >is the "index" hole, that resets/starts the count. Somewhere I used
        >to have a full set of docs for both the N* controller, and the
        >SA-400 drives, but I think that did not make the last move.
        >Terry
        >
        >
        >--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, joshbensadon <no_reply@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Terry,
        > >
        > > I can't help but to ask a little more about the hard sectored disks.
        > > Do they use 10 evenly spaced holes? or is 9 evenly spaced with
        > the 10th hole being a double holed Sector 0 index? The question
        > I'm trying to ask is how do they determine Sector 0?
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > > Josh
        > >
        > >
        ><snip>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Kyle Owen
        I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram VII A board, with
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 4, 2012
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          I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram VII A board, with one of the 5 of the 6 rows of RAM fully populated. There's also a N* 16k RAM board, and the processor card, a ZPB-A2. The floppy drives are made by Tandon, and are both TM101-4s. 

          I can't find too much info the particular floppy controller, other than that it appears to be a double-density unit. I suppose it's still using hard sectors. 

          73,

          Kyle
        • Mike Loewen
          ... Here s a page and a manual for the older, MDS-AD2: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Northstar/MDS/MDS.htm Mike Loewen
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 4, 2012
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            On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Kyle Owen wrote:

            > I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk
            > controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram
            > VII A board, with one of the 5 of the 6 rows of RAM fully populated.
            > There's also a N* 16k RAM board, and the processor card, a ZPB-A2. The
            > floppy drives are made by Tandon, and are both TM101-4s.
            >
            > I can't find too much info the particular floppy controller, other than
            > that it appears to be a double-density unit. I suppose it's still using
            > hard sectors.

            Here's a page and a manual for the older, MDS-AD2:

            http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Northstar/MDS/MDS.htm


            Mike Loewen mloewen@...
            Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
          • B Degnan
            Kyle, check bitsavers.org for the manuals, but most important find the northstar horizon user manuals, they will tell you everything you need to know. This is
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 4, 2012
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              Kyle,

              check bitsavers.org for the manuals, but most important find the northstar horizon user manuals, they will tell you everything you need to know.

              This is a classic n* system.  You will need a 10-sector northstar DOS or Northstar CP/M disk to boot.  I assume the RAM is jumpered to be contiguous, but you need to be sure you have at least the first 24K filled contiguously.

              Bill

              At 08:20 PM 6/4/2012, you wrote:


              I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram VII A board, with one of the 5 of the 6 rows of RAM fully populated. There's also a N* 16k RAM board, and the processor card, a ZPB-A2. The floppy drives are made by Tandon, and are both TM101-4s.

              I can't find too much info the particular floppy controller, other than that it appears to be a double-density unit. I suppose it's still using hard sectors.

              73,

              Kyle


            • s100doctor
              For those who posted Herb will chime in ...I don t follow this mail list daily. If you think someone should contact me, please refer them to my Web site so
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 9, 2012
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                For those who posted "Herb will chime in"...I don't follow this mail list daily. If you think someone should contact me, please refer them to my Web site so they can do that. I have a specific Web page on Northstar, for instance, that would be a good link to have offered Kyle.

                Kyle, about your "northstar" system. With S-100 computers, you won't know what you have until you survey the cards. Now that you've done so, I can see it's mostly "Northstar".

                Northstar made floppy controllers as their first product, then offered whole systems. The Northstar Horizon (S-100 system) was pretty popular so there's a lot of these around. Almost all Northstar stuff used "hard sectored" diskettes, as discussed, including yours. It's 10 sector holes plus an eleventh hole as the "index". Look up "hard sectored floppy" on the Web to learn what that's about. By the way, that "10" is what Bill Degnan was probably talking about, OK?

                Kyle, you can't write to hard-sectored disks with a modern computer, not even one with a 5.25-inch drive. You'll have to find someone with a Northstar Horizon, to make you a "boot disk". The Horizons ran either NorthStar DOS, or CP/M. Contact me c/o my retrotechnology.com Web site to get a CP/M N* boot disk from me, for a modest fee. (there's an alternative way to create a bootable disk but you won't likely need to do that.) There's many N* owners around, welcome to the club!

                There's talk about "punching your own disks". Could someone who has actually SUCCEEDED in punching their own disks and producing USABLE disks, please contact me? All I've heard is negative reports. 10-sector hard sectored disks sometimes are sold on eBay, or ask around for them. I don't have many to offer right now.

                Documentation for the N* is readily available on on-line archives. "northstar horizon manuals" in Google will find them. You may find my Web page of manuals too, that way. Check my list of docs on my site, for ones that may not be available on line (mine are off-line, no apologies). I find it awkward to have to explain that reading a manual is important, and why, in the 21st century. So I'll put it this way: I'll insist on it, if you contact me more than a few times.

                I've found the N* Horizons to be fairly easy to get back into service. If your machine is working, on reset (the red toggle switch in the back), one of the two floppy drives should start rotating and light up, for many seconds, then stop if there's no diskette. Clean the heads on your floppy drives and if you can, remove the drives and verify the drives on another machine. It would be sad if your drives had dirty heads, and the crap on the head scraped off the magnetic coating on your only boot diskette. Yes, that happens.

                There's all sorts of things one can do to restore one of these systems. I discuss things I and others have done, on my Web site's "restoration" pages at:

                http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/r_restore.html

                My Northstar manuals list and some N* discussion is at

                http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_nstar.htm

                Floppy disk hard sector stuff (and other details) is at

                http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#facts

                I'll let my Web pages do the talking from here.

                Herb


                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Owen <kylevowen@...> wrote:
                >
                > I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk
                > controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram
                > VII A board, with one of the 5 of the 6 rows of RAM fully populated.
                > There's also a N* 16k RAM board, and the processor card, a ZPB-A2. The
                > floppy drives are made by Tandon, and are both TM101-4s.
                >
                > I can't find too much info the particular floppy controller, other than
                > that it appears to be a double-density unit. I suppose it's still using
                > hard sectors.
                >
                > 73,
                >
                > Kyle
                >
              • wb4jfi
                Herb: I will contact you separately as well, but I can report that I have very successfully punched both 5-1/4 N* and regular 8-inch CP/M floppy disks and used
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 9, 2012
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                  Herb:

                  I will contact you separately as well, but I can report that I have very successfully punched both 5-1/4 N* and regular 8-inch CP/M floppy disks and used both sides (single density). There were brands that this was a good practice with, and brands that were bad. Memorex were bad, 3M and Verbatim were OK, for example.

                  One issue was that you needed to make sure that the felt pad opposite the head was clean and in good shape. Otherwise, you ended up with scratches which did not affect the "main" side, but could cause severe problems when flipped to the head.

                  I made a small spatula-like thing from a business card, by cutting one long-edge into a rounded end. Next, I flipped a regular floppy upside down (after finding the index hole), and marking the place to punch on the target envelope with a Sharpie. Do this on both sides of the target floppy. Then, carefully put the rounded end of the business card betweem the envelope and the media (through the large center hole), to make a space between them. Punch the new hole where marked using a small, single-hole paper punch, while making sure the business card is between the metal punch and the media itself. The business card prevents the metal punch from scratching the media. I used to boxes at a time while watching TV. Now, I would have done it while waiting for a Windows machine to boot (ha ha).

                  As of two years ago, many of my "punched" 8-inch single-density 241k CP/M disks were still readable, even after almost 30 years. I don't have a N* system, so I can't authentiate those disks anymore.

                  My biggest problem with my main CP/M system is the old Tarbell whack-the-media-during-power-up syndrome. I've destroyed more disks by forgetting to open the drive door before powering up the IMSAI. Then, upon power-up, I hear that sickening clank, and I know another CP/M boot floppy has bit the dust...
                  Terry, WB4JFI

                  --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "s100doctor" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For those who posted "Herb will chime in"...I don't follow this mail list daily. If you think someone should contact me, please refer them to my Web site so they can do that. I have a specific Web page on Northstar, for instance, that would be a good link to have offered Kyle.
                  >
                  > Kyle, about your "northstar" system. With S-100 computers, you won't know what you have until you survey the cards. Now that you've done so, I can see it's mostly "Northstar".
                  >
                  > Northstar made floppy controllers as their first product, then offered whole systems. The Northstar Horizon (S-100 system) was pretty popular so there's a lot of these around. Almost all Northstar stuff used "hard sectored" diskettes, as discussed, including yours. It's 10 sector holes plus an eleventh hole as the "index". Look up "hard sectored floppy" on the Web to learn what that's about. By the way, that "10" is what Bill Degnan was probably talking about, OK?
                  >
                  > Kyle, you can't write to hard-sectored disks with a modern computer, not even one with a 5.25-inch drive. You'll have to find someone with a Northstar Horizon, to make you a "boot disk". The Horizons ran either NorthStar DOS, or CP/M. Contact me c/o my retrotechnology.com Web site to get a CP/M N* boot disk from me, for a modest fee. (there's an alternative way to create a bootable disk but you won't likely need to do that.) There's many N* owners around, welcome to the club!
                  >
                  > There's talk about "punching your own disks". Could someone who has actually SUCCEEDED in punching their own disks and producing USABLE disks, please contact me? All I've heard is negative reports. 10-sector hard sectored disks sometimes are sold on eBay, or ask around for them. I don't have many to offer right now.
                  >
                  > Documentation for the N* is readily available on on-line archives. "northstar horizon manuals" in Google will find them. You may find my Web page of manuals too, that way. Check my list of docs on my site, for ones that may not be available on line (mine are off-line, no apologies). I find it awkward to have to explain that reading a manual is important, and why, in the 21st century. So I'll put it this way: I'll insist on it, if you contact me more than a few times.
                  >
                  > I've found the N* Horizons to be fairly easy to get back into service. If your machine is working, on reset (the red toggle switch in the back), one of the two floppy drives should start rotating and light up, for many seconds, then stop if there's no diskette. Clean the heads on your floppy drives and if you can, remove the drives and verify the drives on another machine. It would be sad if your drives had dirty heads, and the crap on the head scraped off the magnetic coating on your only boot diskette. Yes, that happens.
                  >
                  > There's all sorts of things one can do to restore one of these systems. I discuss things I and others have done, on my Web site's "restoration" pages at:
                  >
                  > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/r_restore.html
                  >
                  > My Northstar manuals list and some N* discussion is at
                  >
                  > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_nstar.htm
                  >
                  > Floppy disk hard sector stuff (and other details) is at
                  >
                  > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#facts
                  >
                  > I'll let my Web pages do the talking from here.
                  >
                  > Herb
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Owen <kylevowen@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I got a chance to look at the N* again today. It looks like the disk
                  > > controller is an MDS-AD3, from N*. Also installed is a CompuKit Econoram
                  > > VII A board, with one of the 5 of the 6 rows of RAM fully populated.
                  > > There's also a N* 16k RAM board, and the processor card, a ZPB-A2. The
                  > > floppy drives are made by Tandon, and are both TM101-4s.
                  > >
                  > > I can't find too much info the particular floppy controller, other than
                  > > that it appears to be a double-density unit. I suppose it's still using
                  > > hard sectors.
                  > >
                  > > 73,
                  > >
                  > > Kyle
                  > >
                  >
                • s100doctor
                  ... Kyle contacted me, and we discussed what he s talking about. Turns out, he s talking about flippy disk technology. In the old OLD days, floppy drives
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 13, 2012
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                    "wb4jfi" <wb4jfi@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Herb:
                    >
                    > I will contact you separately as well, but I can report that I have very successfully punched both 5-1/4 N* and regular 8-inch CP/M floppy disks and used both sides (single density). There were brands that this was a good practice with, and brands that were bad. Memorex were bad, 3M and Verbatim were OK, for example.
                    >
                    > One issue was that you needed to make sure that the felt pad opposite the head was clean and in good shape. Otherwise, you ended up with scratches which did not affect the "main" side, but could cause severe problems when flipped to the head.
                    > Kyle


                    Kyle contacted me, and we discussed what he's talking about. Turns out, he's talking about "flippy disk" technology. In the old OLD days, floppy drives were single sided. But most diskettes and all double-sided disks, have magnetic coatings on BOTH sides of the "cookie". Punching a hole through the ENVELOPE on the "opposite side" where the index hole is punched, lets you "flip" the disk over and use either side on a single sided drive. On a double sided drive this is moot.

                    What is in discussion in this thread, is 10-sector HARD SECTORED diskettes. The holes are sector holes in the "cookie", not a access hole in the envelope. Very different. Now I have to add "flippy disks" to my online collection of floppy information; another "lost art" of 20th century computing.

                    Herb Johnson
                  • David Gesswein
                    ... I hadn t realized disks were sold prepunched for flipping until I found a 3M box of them. Back in the day I punched them (poorly) myself.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 13, 2012
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                      On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:30:51PM -0000, s100doctor wrote:
                      > Punching a hole through the ENVELOPE on the "opposite side" where the
                      > index hole is punched, lets you "flip" the disk over and use either
                      > side on a single sided drive. On a double sided drive this is moot.
                      >
                      I hadn't realized disks were sold prepunched for flipping until I found a
                      3M box of them. Back in the day I punched them (poorly) myself.
                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... 3M box of them. Back in the day I punched them (poorly) myself. The first computer product I ever bought with my own money, vs. my parents, was a disk
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 13, 2012
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                        >> I hadn't realized disks were sold prepunched for flipping until I found a
                        3M box of them. Back in the day I punched them (poorly) myself.

                        The first computer product I ever bought with my own money, vs. my parents, was a disk notcher.
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