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Types of computer logic?

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  • Matt Patoray
    Hi all, I have been following a discussion on another mailing list that have brought up some questions about types of computer logic circuits and processing
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
      Hi all,

      I have been following a discussion on another mailing list that have brought up some questions about types of computer logic circuits and processing capability back in the 1970's

      The discussion is on the "cold war comms" list. The discussion is about plant power supplies in telephone switching offices. When the discussion came to the 1ESS and 1AESS Western Electric electronic (electromechanical with computer control) switching systems, 3 volt logic was mentioned.

      They called the logic ECL and said it was chosen because of the lower power requirements and also because it could switch faster then TTL 5 volt logic, it was mentioned in passing that the 1A processor variant had "higher performance then the freon cooled systems that IBM was selling at the time" the 1A processor was released in march 1976.

      So the questions that I have are, what is ECL logic? Was it possible to switch faster then 5V TTL? Does anyone have any experience or specs form these Western Electric processing systems to compare them to a general purpose computer of the same vintage?

      Thanks,

      Matt

      Sent from my iPhone
    • Mr Ian Primus
      ... ECL stands for Emitter Coupled Logic . It s another form of transistor based logic, and achieves faster switching speed by never fully turning the
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
        --- On Tue, 3/20/12, Matt Patoray <mspatoray@...> wrote:

        > So the questions that I have are, what is ECL logic? Was it
        > possible to switch faster then 5V TTL? Does anyone have any
        > experience or specs form these Western Electric processing
        > systems to compare them to a general purpose computer of the
        > same vintage?

        ECL stands for "Emitter Coupled Logic". It's another form of transistor based logic, and achieves faster switching speed by never fully turning the transistors on (bringing them to saturation), and using smaller voltage transitions (as opposed to 5v logic levels, it's closer to a volt). The transistors can switch more quickly, but they're also always drawing power, regardless of whether they're logic 1 or 0. So, ECL stuff uses lots of power, and puts out a lot of heat.

        Several machines use ECL. For example, the Prime computer I brought to VCF East that one year was an ECL mini. It uses two huge power supplies for the ECL CPU (the I/O boards and RAM are TTL, but the CPU is ECL), and they're wired in "backwards", as the ECL logic runs on negative voltage.

        -Ian
      • J. Chris Hausler
        Hi Matt, ECL stands for Emitter Coupled Logic . It switches faster because TTL is saturating logic i.e. the transistor is driven into saturation in normal
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
          Hi Matt,

          ECL stands for "Emitter Coupled Logic". It switches faster because TTL is "saturating logic" i.e. the transistor is driven into saturation in normal operation. Transistors in ECL were not. I'm no expert on ECL but I did do some TTL design 40 years ago. With saturating logic there is excess charge in the transistor. The saturation point is reached when adding more current into (or out of, NPN vs PNP) the base no longer results in more collector emitter current increase. The additional charge just builds up. This charge then needs to be removed before the transistor can switch. This slows things down a bit. Design improvements were made in TTL to reduce this effect somewhat. I never did ECL design but recall hearing that noise margins were less requiring more careful layout but again I'm no expert and even my TTL experience is ancient...

          73, Chris Hausler


          -----Original Message-----
          >From: Matt Patoray <mspatoray@...>
          >Sent: Mar 20, 2012 11:15 AM
          >To: "midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com" <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: [midatlanticretro] Types of computer logic?
          >
          >Hi all,
          >
          >I have been following a discussion on another mailing list that have brought up some questions about types of computer logic circuits and processing capability back in the 1970's
          >
          >The discussion is on the "cold war comms" list. The discussion is about plant power supplies in telephone switching offices. When the discussion came to the 1ESS and 1AESS Western Electric electronic (electromechanical with computer control) switching systems, 3 volt logic was mentioned.
          >
          >They called the logic ECL and said it was chosen because of the lower power requirements and also because it could switch faster then TTL 5 volt logic, it was mentioned in passing that the 1A processor variant had "higher performance then the freon cooled systems that IBM was selling at the time" the 1A processor was released in march 1976.
          >
          >So the questions that I have are, what is ECL logic? Was it possible to switch faster then 5V TTL? Does anyone have any experience or specs form these Western Electric processing systems to compare them to a general purpose computer of the same vintage?
          >
          >Thanks,
          >
          >Matt
          >
          >Sent from my iPhone
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Bill Sudbrink
          ... Emitter Coupled Logic ... I don t think that s right. ECL tends to use more power. ... That s correct. ECL was a fast technology. Generally, increased
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
            Matt Patoray wrote:
            > They called the logic ECL

            Emitter Coupled Logic

            > and said it was chosen because of the lower
            > power requirements

            I don't think that's right. ECL tends to use more power.

            > and also because it could switch faster then TTL 5
            > volt logic

            That's correct. ECL was a fast technology.

            Generally, increased speed will almost always result in
            higher power consumption. Think of it like this: To compute,
            you have to push electrons through the circuit. To compute
            faster you have to push more electrons through. This is
            assuming all else (component composition, scale and the like)
            being equal. I'm pretty sure that in the time period you're
            considering all else was equal.

            Bill S.
          • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
            ... Lower voltage but not necessarily lower power at that voltage. The VAX 9000, for example, was an ECL system and was designed, originally, to be water
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
              "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink@...> writes:

              >Matt Patoray wrote: > They called the logic ECL
              >
              > Emitter Coupled Logic
              >
              >> and said it was chosen because of the lower > power requirements
              >
              > I don't think that's right. ECL tends to use more power.

              Lower voltage but not necessarily lower power at that voltage. The
              VAX 9000, for example, was an ECL system and was designed, originally,
              to be water cooled because of power/heat dissipation needs.
            • Dave McGuire
              ... Still is, in fact. ;) ... To expound a bit... This is why (almost) everything moved to CMOS. CMOS uses MOSFETs as switching elements, and FETs are
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 20, 2012
                >> and also because it could switch faster then TTL 5
                >> volt logic
                >
                > That's correct. ECL was a fast technology.

                Still is, in fact. ;)

                > Generally, increased speed will almost always result in
                > higher power consumption. Think of it like this: To compute,
                > you have to push electrons through the circuit. To compute
                > faster you have to push more electrons through. This is
                > assuming all else (component composition, scale and the like)
                > being equal. I'm pretty sure that in the time period you're
                > considering all else was equal.

                To expound a bit...

                This is why (almost) everything moved to CMOS. CMOS uses MOSFETs as
                switching elements, and FETs are voltage-operated devices (like vacuum
                tubes) rather than current-operated devices (like bipolar transistors).

                The gate of a MOSFET, analogous to the base of a transistor, looks
                electrically like a capacitor. All you have to do to turn on the MOSFET
                is charge up that "capacitor". There's a trade-off between Rds(on) (the
                on-state resistance of the transistor), current handling capacity, and
                "gate charge", which is the amount of charge required to turn on the
                MOSFET. That's sometimes specified as "gate capacitance" in the
                datasheets of discrete MOSFETs. To turn it on, you charge up that
                "capacitor", and to turn it off, you discharge it.

                Of course the R/C time constant comes into play, and to charge a
                capacitor faster you need more current available...so there are a number
                of trade-offs in CMOS design.

                With all of that in mind, envision a whole series of circuits, from
                tens to even millions of MOSFETs in (say) a microprocessor, all
                switching on and off to perform their logic function. That's a lot of
                little capacitors charging and discharging. As you increase the clock
                rate, the number of charges and discharges per unit time increases, and
                the overall power consumption of the chip increases, in a linear relation.

                Therefor the power consumed by a CMOS chip directly corresponds to
                its clock frequency. That's why we turn our laptops' CPU clocks down to
                conserve battery life. It's also why, in power-constrained embedded
                designs, we sometimes use clock rates that make PC people scoff. I once
                used a processor clocked at 32KHz, yes 32 kilohertz, in a design because
                it needed long battery life, I couldn't use bigger batteries, and
                frankly, that's all the processing speed it needed to get the job done.
                The customer, who was a real prick, angrily accused me of using
                "ancient technology" (it was a cutting-edge chip at the time) because it
                was clocked so slowly. It took awhile to explain what was going on, but
                thankfully he got it...and I got paid. ;)

                -Dave

                --
                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                New Kensington, PA
              • Jeff Jonas
                ... By the 70s, 5 volt 74xx TTL chips were the workhorse of most digital electronics. But some industries such as the phone company were extremely conservative
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 21, 2012
                  > I have been following a discussion on another mailing list
                  > that have brought up some questions about
                  > types of computer logic circuits
                  > and processing capability back in the 1970's

                  By the 70s, 5 volt 74xx TTL chips were the workhorse of most digital electronics. But some industries such as the phone company were extremely conservative with their adopting new technologies and still used old tried-and-true devices which they knew to be reliable.

                  A simplified progression of digital logic:
                  - relays
                  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_logic
                  - RTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic
                  - DTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode%E2%80%93transistor_logic
                  - TTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic

                  As mentioned, ECL was used for high performance but it was tricky to use, consumed a lot of power and generated a lot of heat.

                  Also: MSI (medium scale integration) was starting up, so chips with 5V signals sometimes needed + or - 12V too (such as early DRAM). [that's why the Zilog Z80 quickly overtook the Intel 8080: it required only a single +5v power supply].


                  Also semi-related to that:

                  The IBM 1130 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130 used System/360 electronics packaging called Solid Logic Technology (SLT). Inside the metal squares was a ceramic substrate with a hybrid circuit of transistors & resistors. I'm unsure if that's TTL or DTL since it was early 60s. The Univac and MOBIDIC used business card sized PC boards with individual transistors.

                  For a while, tubes and transistors co-existed. Some mainframes used thyratrons for printers, tape drives and parts that required high speed high current switching.

                  The DM160 is an indicator tube that operates from 3v transistor logic, drawing only 1/2 milliamp since it's an amplifier and indicator in one!
                  http://ferretronix.com/march/dm160/
                • Jeff Jonas
                  A few more points . there s still the eternal tradeoff of speed, voltage and power consumed, thus laptops/netbooks/tablets using sophisticated power management
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 21, 2012
                    A few more points

                    . there's still the eternal tradeoff of speed, voltage and power consumed, thus laptops/netbooks/tablets using sophisticated power management of the CPU to extend battery life (usually slower CPU speeds)

                    . 5 volts is so ubiquitous that it's the power supplied by USB for devices even if they're 3.3v inside. Happily, most cellular phones and accessories now use the mini USB connector for power so there's no need to track all the proprietory power cubes & intentionally incompatible connectors.

                    . -48 volts is still the standard for telecom and Power-over-ethernet. AT&T switches and computers such as the 3B20 used -48v power supplies and battery backup (a room of batteries, or 4 Delco Freedom car batteries)
                    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_-48v_used_in_Telecom

                    -- jeffj
                  • Dan Roganti
                    ... I had to dig thru some of my old notes from when I was there designing on the 5ESS. I saved some of the Bell Labs Tech Journals - which was required
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 23, 2012
                      On 03/20/2012 11:15 AM, Matt Patoray wrote:
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > I have been following a discussion on another mailing list that have brought up some questions about types of computer logic circuits and processing capability back in the 1970's
                      >
                      > The discussion is on the "cold war comms" list. The discussion is about plant power supplies in telephone switching offices. When the discussion came to the 1ESS and 1AESS Western Electric electronic (electromechanical with computer control) switching systems, 3 volt logic was mentioned.
                      >
                      > They called the logic ECL and said it was chosen because of the lower power requirements and also because it could switch faster then TTL 5 volt logic, it was mentioned in passing that the 1A processor variant had "higher performance then the freon cooled systems that IBM was selling at the time" the 1A processor was released in march 1976.
                      >
                      > So the questions that I have are, what is ECL logic? Was it possible to switch faster then 5V TTL? Does anyone have any experience or specs form these Western Electric processing systems to compare them to a general purpose computer of the same vintage?
                      >

                      I had to dig thru some of my old notes from when I was there designing
                      on the 5ESS. I saved some of the Bell Labs Tech Journals - which was
                      required reading. The short answer is No, they did not use ECL.
                      While ECL was the fastest, it's essentially a power hog for the increase
                      in speed. That might be fine for the mainframes - but there's no concern
                      for downtime - only data crunching time. Bell Labs developed there own
                      logic family, CDI-DTTL, which sustained higher mtbf ratings. While it
                      was slightly slower than ECL, typical was still 5nsec, it was way more
                      efficient in the speed/power/noise immunity category. And the fab
                      processing of the silicon was far more reliable than any, even ECL. It
                      was made for Hi-Rel environments, where the systems operate in 80C heat
                      constantly - this enabled the high availability requirements for its day
                      - max 2min downtown per system per office.
                      =Dan
                    • William Donzelli
                      ... With mainframes, reducing downtime means *everything*. Repeat the mantra. RAS. RAS. RAS. ... There has been talk about the noise immunity concern with ECL
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 23, 2012
                        > While ECL was the fastest, it's essentially a power hog for the increase
                        > in speed. That might be fine for the mainframes - but there's no concern
                        > for downtime - only data crunching time.

                        With mainframes, reducing downtime means *everything*. Repeat the
                        mantra. RAS. RAS. RAS.

                        > While it
                        > was slightly slower than ECL, typical was still 5nsec, it was way more
                        > efficient in the speed/power/noise immunity category.

                        There has been talk about the noise immunity concern with ECL in this
                        thread - and it is true. ECL is sort of crummy in that respect,
                        partially due to the way logic transitions are handled. While
                        propagation delays are made as short as possible, the logic edges are
                        purposefully made slow, almost sloppy. On a high speed scope, you will
                        see that an ECL high to low (or low to high) transition is not very
                        fast. This is kept this way to avoid reflections in the traces in the
                        circuit boards, especially at corners or bends. Having a super fast
                        transition would lead to ringing, as the electrons bounce off the
                        walls of the copper before the termination at the end of the trace.
                        Having a slow transition greatly reduces the ringing. Unfortunately,
                        having slow transitions generally means crummy noise immunity.

                        However, noise is generally not a problem in systems made with only
                        ECL. The power supply draw, while very high, is extremely constant.
                        There is very little noise generated by the chips themselves. If an
                        engineer follows all the rules of ECL design, with a minimum of three
                        solid power planes in every circuit board (power, ground, and the
                        termination voltage) and uses transmission lines for all the
                        connections, noise really is not much of an issue, as there really is
                        very little floating around to cause problems. In mixed logic systems,
                        especially where TTL and ECL meet - noise can be a real gremlin. TTL
                        makes it, and ECL sucks it up.

                        Also, as a bonus - ECL is inherently rad-hard.

                        --
                        Will
                      • Dan Roganti
                        ... that goes with any system. But Telelcom systems have a FCC mandate to meet availability. ... this is signal integrity 101 ;) ... Also, as a bonus - ECL is
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012



                          On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 1:46 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> wrote:
                          > While ECL was the fastest, it's essentially a power hog for the increase
                          > in speed. That might be fine for the mainframes - but there's no concern
                          > for downtime - only data crunching time.

                          With mainframes, reducing downtime means *everything*. Repeat the
                          mantra. RAS. RAS. RAS.
                           
                          that goes with any system. But Telelcom systems have a FCC mandate to meet availability.
                           

                          > While it
                          > was slightly slower than ECL, typical was still 5nsec, it was way more
                          > efficient in the speed/power/noise immunity category.

                          There has been talk about the noise immunity concern with ECL in this
                          thread - and it is true. ECL is sort of crummy in that respect,
                          partially due to the way logic transitions are handled. While
                          propagation delays are made as short as possible, the logic edges are
                          purposefully made slow, almost sloppy. On a high speed scope, you will
                          see......
                           
                          this is signal integrity 101 ;)
                           
                           

                          Also, as a bonus - ECL is inherently rad-hard.

                           
                          well, there's no FCC mandate for this, especially when there's no people around to use a phone after a nuke strike :)
                           
                           
                        • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                          ... ... It was? Then, GE could have put that into the Mars Observer when I was at GE AstroSpace; of course, GE
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                            William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> writes:

                            >> While ECL was the fastest, it's essentially a power hog for the
                            >increase > in speed. That might be fine for the mainframes - but there's
                            >no concern > for downtime - only data crunching time.
                            >
                            >With mainframes, reducing downtime means *everything*. Repeat the
                            >mantra. RAS. RAS. RAS.

                            <http://www.openvms.org/images/ovms_tag.jpg>



                            >Also, as a bonus - ECL is inherently rad-hard.

                            It was? Then, GE could have put that into the Mars Observer when I was at
                            GE AstroSpace; of course, GE would have had to send Three Mile Island into
                            space with it to power it. :)
                          • Bob Applegate
                            ... I spent more than 10 years at a telecom company, and the telcos are extremely concerned with up-time. We had to offer SLA (Service Level Agreements) for
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012

                              On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:28 AM, Dan Roganti wrote:

                               




                              On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 1:46 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> wrote:
                              > While ECL was the fastest, it's essentially a power hog for the increase
                              > in speed. That might be fine for the mainframes - but there's no concern
                              > for downtime - only data crunching time.

                              With mainframes, reducing downtime means *everything*. Repeat the
                              mantra. RAS. RAS. RAS.
                               
                              that goes with any system. But Telelcom systems have a FCC mandate to meet availability.

                              I spent more than 10 years at a telecom company, and the telcos are extremely concerned with up-time.  We had to offer SLA (Service Level Agreements) for most of our customers that involved incredibly steep penalties for problems we couldn't resolve in a few hours.  "Five nines" (99.999% uptime) is being replaced with "six nines", which amounts to a tad over 31 seconds of downtime PER YEAR.

                              If the downtime was caused by our equipment, the fines would be measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars per day.

                              Bob


                            • William Donzelli
                              ... Any system? Your PC? ... Yes - but I would not be surprised if there are banking laws buried in the books concerning uptime and integrity of financial
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                > that goes with any system.

                                Any system? Your PC?

                                > But Telelcom systems have a FCC mandate to meet availability.

                                Yes - but I would not be surprised if there are banking laws buried in
                                the books concerning uptime and integrity of financial computing
                                systems.

                                > this is signal integrity 101 ;)

                                Yes, but in this class, the professor had not mentioned it yet.

                                --
                                Will
                              • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                ... ROTFLMFAO ... There it s the law of the consumer that drives it more than any government legislation. During one keynote address given by one of the
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                  William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> writes:

                                  >> that goes with any system.
                                  >
                                  >Any system? Your PC?

                                  ROTFLMFAO


                                  >> But Telelcom systems have a FCC mandate to meet availability.
                                  >
                                  >Yes - but I would not be surprised if there are banking laws buried in
                                  >the books concerning uptime and integrity of financial computing
                                  >systems.

                                  There it's the law of the consumer that drives it more than any government
                                  legislation. During one keynote address given by one of the world's large
                                  securities and commodities exchanges, the presenter reported never having
                                  downtime or ever losing a transaction. Could you imagine the hell they'd
                                  have to pay if their trading systems were unavailable during some crucial
                                  sell-off or buy-up period? In the business world, money has greater power
                                  than the government. ;)
                                • William Donzelli
                                  ... Oh, you mean like when the main NASDAQ node in New York was soaked and destroyed about 12 years back, when a pipe broke above it? The ANS/AOL stuff I was
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                    > There it's the law of the consumer that drives it more than any government
                                    > legislation. During one keynote address given by one of the world's large
                                    > securities and commodities exchanges, the presenter reported never having
                                    > downtime or ever losing a transaction. Could you imagine the hell they'd
                                    > have to pay if their trading systems were unavailable during some crucial
                                    > sell-off or buy-up period?

                                    Oh, you mean like when the main NASDAQ node in New York was soaked and
                                    destroyed about 12 years back, when a pipe broke above it? The ANS/AOL
                                    stuff I was working on was in the next row over, but we only got a few
                                    sprinkles and a resulting few dead router cards. The NASDAQ stuff (DEC
                                    and Motorola, almost exclusively) was dead dead dead - about 8 rack
                                    footprints of it. I saw the pile of parts later, and pretty much every
                                    board had little black blast marks from former components.

                                    What amazed me is that their guys completely built up a replacement
                                    node in about two days, ready for the stock market to open up after
                                    the long weekend. Yes, long weekend - it was the New Years weekend,
                                    and that first day of any new year is always very heavy in trades.

                                    And then, the next year, over Christmas, another pipe broke and soaked
                                    our stuff.

                                    --
                                    Will
                                  • Ray Sills
                                    ... I guess the lesson here is to locate your racks very far away from pipes that carry water... or other fluids. Or enclose them with some sort of protective
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                      On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

                                      >> There it's the law of the consumer that drives it more than any
                                      >> government
                                      >> legislation. During one keynote address given by one of the
                                      >> world's large
                                      >> securities and commodities exchanges, the presenter reported never
                                      >> having
                                      >> downtime or ever losing a transaction. Could you imagine the hell
                                      >> they'd
                                      >> have to pay if their trading systems were unavailable during some
                                      >> crucial
                                      >> sell-off or buy-up period?
                                      >
                                      > Oh, you mean like when the main NASDAQ node in New York was soaked and
                                      > destroyed about 12 years back, when a pipe broke above it? The ANS/AOL
                                      > stuff I was working on was in the next row over, but we only got a few
                                      > sprinkles and a resulting few dead router cards. The NASDAQ stuff (DEC
                                      > and Motorola, almost exclusively) was dead dead dead - about 8 rack
                                      > footprints of it. I saw the pile of parts later, and pretty much every
                                      > board had little black blast marks from former components.
                                      >
                                      > What amazed me is that their guys completely built up a replacement
                                      > node in about two days, ready for the stock market to open up after
                                      > the long weekend. Yes, long weekend - it was the New Years weekend,
                                      > and that first day of any new year is always very heavy in trades.
                                      >
                                      > And then, the next year, over Christmas, another pipe broke and soaked
                                      > our stuff.
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Will
                                      >

                                      I guess the lesson here is to locate your racks very far away from
                                      pipes that carry water... or other fluids.
                                      Or enclose them with some sort of protective sheath to divert any
                                      possible fluid invasion. :)

                                      73 de Ray
                                    • Dan Roganti
                                      ... What is utterly absurd is equating a PC to a fault tolerant duplex high availability system.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012


                                        On Mar 24, 2012 10:04 AM, <system@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> writes:
                                        >
                                        > >> that goes with any system.
                                        > >
                                        > >Any system? Your PC?
                                        >
                                        > ROTFLMFAO

                                        What is utterly absurd is equating a PC to a fault tolerant duplex high availability system.

                                      • Mike Loewen
                                        ... The attitude of our OPP (Office of Physical Plant) used to be, Who gave you permission to put your equipment under our pipes? Mike Loewen
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                          On Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Ray Sills wrote:

                                          > I guess the lesson here is to locate your racks very far away from
                                          > pipes that carry water... or other fluids.
                                          > Or enclose them with some sort of protective sheath to divert any
                                          > possible fluid invasion. :)

                                          The attitude of our OPP (Office of Physical Plant) used to be, "Who
                                          gave you permission to put your equipment under our pipes?"


                                          Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                          Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                                        • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                          ... Odd. I didn t hear much about that. However, I know many NYC VMS sites that DO need to survive a disaster that have a disaster-tolerant cluster
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                            Ray Sills <raysills3@...> writes:

                                            >On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
                                            >{...snip...}
                                            > Oh, you mean like when the main NASDAQ node in New York was soaked and
                                            > destroyed about 12 years back, when a >pipe broke above it? The ANS/AOL
                                            > stuff I was working on was in the next row over, but we only got a few
                                            > sprinkles and a resulting few dead router cards. The NASDAQ stuff (DEC
                                            > and Motorola, almost
                                            >exclusively) was dead dead dead - about 8 rack
                                            > footprints of it. I saw
                                            >the pile of parts later, and pretty much every
                                            > board had little black
                                            >blast marks from former components.
                                            > What amazed me is that their
                                            >guys completely built up a replacement
                                            > node in about two days, ready
                                            >for the stock market to open up after
                                            > the long weekend. Yes, long
                                            >weekend - it was the New Years weekend,
                                            > and that first day of any new
                                            >year is always very heavy in trades.

                                            Odd. I didn't hear much about that. However, I know many NYC VMS sites
                                            that DO need to survive a disaster that have a disaster-tolerant cluster
                                            configuration with systems across the river in Jersey City (Harborside)
                                            or in other places outside of the city. 9/11, there were sites lost in
                                            and near the WTC but externally users didn't know because their disaster
                                            tolerant clusters just kept on running for them with nary a glitch.

                                            However, WRT your comment, any computer -- it doesn't have to be the DEC
                                            kit you wanted to dis -- will not work very well when it's been immersed
                                            under water. You too wouldn't run for too long if you were under water;
                                            why would you think a computer would?



                                            > And then, the next year, over
                                            >Christmas, another pipe broke and soaked
                                            > our stuff.

                                            Obviously, your group is not concerned with business continuity or they'd
                                            not be putting the corporate jewels in harms way.
                                          • Dave McGuire
                                            ... When employees (and departments) that are basically overhead get that sort of ego and sense of self-importance, it really galls me. The same thing
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                              On 03/24/2012 02:13 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
                                              >> I guess the lesson here is to locate your racks very far away from
                                              >> pipes that carry water... or other fluids.
                                              >> Or enclose them with some sort of protective sheath to divert any
                                              >> possible fluid invasion. :)
                                              >
                                              > The attitude of our OPP (Office of Physical Plant) used to be, "Who
                                              > gave you permission to put your equipment under our pipes?"

                                              When employees (and departments) that are basically "overhead" get
                                              that sort of ego and sense of self-importance, it really galls me. The
                                              same thing happens, seemingly universally, with upper management.
                                              Overpaid AND overhead!

                                              -Dave

                                              --
                                              Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                              New Kensington, PA
                                            • William Donzelli
                                              ... Well, you said any ! -- Will
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                > What is utterly absurd is equating a PC to a fault tolerant duplex high availability system.

                                                Well, you said "any"!

                                                --
                                                Will
                                              • William Donzelli
                                                ... Across the river is not good enough. You need to be 20 megatons away, at least. ... 60 Hudson Street. Welcome to New York. Try telling that to the union
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                  > Odd. I didn't hear much about that. However, I know many NYC VMS sites
                                                  > that DO need to survive a disaster that have a disaster-tolerant cluster
                                                  > configuration with systems across the river in Jersey City (Harborside)
                                                  > or in other places outside of the city.

                                                  "Across the river" is not good enough. You need to be 20 megatons
                                                  away, at least.

                                                  > Obviously, your group is not concerned with business continuity or they'd
                                                  > not be putting the corporate jewels in harms way.

                                                  60 Hudson Street. Welcome to New York. Try telling that to the union
                                                  guys in the building. I will help pay for your medical bills.

                                                  --
                                                  Will
                                                • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                                  ... It s nice to see that we have some other things in common too! I ve never held most upper-level management in high regard.
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                    Dave McGuire <Mcguire@...> writes:

                                                    >On 03/24/2012 02:13 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> I guess the lesson here is
                                                    >to locate your racks very far away from >> pipes that carry water... or
                                                    >other fluids. >> Or enclose them with some sort of protective sheath to
                                                    >divert any >> possible fluid invasion. :) > > The attitude of our
                                                    >OPP (Office of Physical Plant) used to be, "Who > gave you permission to
                                                    >put your equipment under our pipes?"
                                                    >
                                                    > When employees (and departments) that are basically "overhead" get
                                                    >that sort of ego and sense of self-importance, it really galls me. The
                                                    >same thing happens, seemingly universally, with upper management.
                                                    >Overpaid AND overhead!

                                                    It's nice to see that we have some other things in common too!

                                                    I've never held most upper-level management in high regard.
                                                  • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                                    ... If NYC, or any other major city for that matter, is nuked, I can assure you that I d have very minimal concern for business continuity and much greater
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                      William Donzelli <wdonzelli@...> writes:

                                                      >> Odd. I didn't hear much about that. However, I know many NYC VMS sites
                                                      >> that DO need to survive a disaster that have a disaster-tolerant
                                                      >cluster > configuration with systems across the river in Jersey City
                                                      >(Harborside) > or in other places outside of the city.
                                                      >
                                                      >"Across the river" is not good enough. You need to be 20 megatons away,
                                                      >at least.

                                                      If NYC, or any other major city for that matter, is nuked, I can assure
                                                      you that I'd have very minimal concern for business continuity and much
                                                      greater concerns for the whole of humanity -- at least, for the several
                                                      minutes we'd all have left. ;)



                                                      >> Obviously, your group is not concerned with business continuity or
                                                      >they'd > not be putting the corporate jewels in harms way.
                                                      >
                                                      >60 Hudson Street. Welcome to New York. Try telling that to the union
                                                      >guys in the building. I will help pay for your medical bills.

                                                      Unions... government sanctioned organized crime syndicates.
                                                    • Dave McGuire
                                                      ... Heh. In what world does it not? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                        On 03/24/2012 09:56 AM, system@... wrote:
                                                        > There it's the law of the consumer that drives it more than any government
                                                        > legislation. During one keynote address given by one of the world's large
                                                        > securities and commodities exchanges, the presenter reported never having
                                                        > downtime or ever losing a transaction. Could you imagine the hell they'd
                                                        > have to pay if their trading systems were unavailable during some crucial
                                                        > sell-off or buy-up period? In the business world, money has greater power
                                                        > than the government. ;)

                                                        Heh. In what world does it not? ;)

                                                        -Dave

                                                        --
                                                        Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                                        New Kensington, PA
                                                      • Dave McGuire
                                                        ... s/Unions/Unions and banks/ There. Fixed that for ya. ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Mar 24, 2012
                                                          On 03/24/2012 04:10 PM, system@... wrote:
                                                          >> 60 Hudson Street. Welcome to New York. Try telling that to the union
                                                          >> guys in the building. I will help pay for your medical bills.
                                                          >
                                                          > Unions... government sanctioned organized crime syndicates.

                                                          s/Unions/Unions and banks/

                                                          There. Fixed that for ya. ;)

                                                          --
                                                          Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                                          New Kensington, PA
                                                        • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                                          ... ;) I think I will be taking BofA to court to recover stolen funds that should, according to their zero liability clause, be restored to my account. I ve
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Mar 25, 2012
                                                            Dave McGuire <Mcguire@...> writes:

                                                            >On 03/24/2012 04:10 PM, system@... wrote: >> 60
                                                            >Hudson Street. Welcome to New York. Try telling that to the union >>
                                                            >guys in the building. I will help pay for your medical bills. > >
                                                            >Unions... government sanctioned organized crime syndicates.
                                                            >
                                                            > s/Unions/Unions and banks/
                                                            >
                                                            > There. Fixed that for ya. ;)

                                                            ;)

                                                            I think I will be taking BofA to court to recover stolen funds that should,
                                                            according to their zero liability clause, be restored to my account. I've
                                                            been fighting with them for nearly 6 weeks for $4,800+. So, I'm not going
                                                            to complain if you lump them in the "government sanctioned organized crime
                                                            syndicates" class.
                                                          • Neil Cherry
                                                            ... In the 90 s my managed network customers wanted designs for networks that included backup and fault tolerance. We had some customers that backed up to
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Mar 25, 2012
                                                              On 03/24/2012 03:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >> Odd. I didn't hear much about that. However, I know many NYC VMS sites
                                                              >> that DO need to survive a disaster that have a disaster-tolerant cluster
                                                              >> configuration with systems across the river in Jersey City (Harborside)
                                                              >> or in other places outside of the city.
                                                              >
                                                              > "Across the river" is not good enough. You need to be 20 megatons
                                                              > away, at least.

                                                              In the 90's my managed network customers wanted designs for networks
                                                              that included backup and fault tolerance. We had some customers that
                                                              backed up to Philadelphia, some to Princeton others to Northern NJ
                                                              and finally one to the central US. Most of these were top 50 customers
                                                              and downtime was measured in millions/hour. Backup design at the network
                                                              could get to be a whole lot of fun because you had to consider physical
                                                              diversity (layer 1) all the way up to layer 4. I wasn't concerned with
                                                              the high layers.

                                                              --
                                                              Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@...
                                                              http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
                                                              http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
                                                              Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
                                                            • Dave McGuire
                                                              ... Wow, that sounds like a mess. Good luck! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Mar 25, 2012
                                                                On 03/25/2012 08:51 AM, system@... wrote:
                                                                >> s/Unions/Unions and banks/
                                                                >>
                                                                >> There. Fixed that for ya. ;)
                                                                >
                                                                > ;)
                                                                >
                                                                > I think I will be taking BofA to court to recover stolen funds that should,
                                                                > according to their zero liability clause, be restored to my account. I've
                                                                > been fighting with them for nearly 6 weeks for $4,800+. So, I'm not going
                                                                > to complain if you lump them in the "government sanctioned organized crime
                                                                > syndicates" class.

                                                                Wow, that sounds like a mess. Good luck!

                                                                -Dave

                                                                --
                                                                Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
                                                                New Kensington, PA
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