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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Today is 11111

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  • Dan Roganti
    ... Because you re still thinking in Flip Flops. There s no rule saying you can t use 5bits. Also, you don t need any hardware to use Binary math -- paper
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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      On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:17 AM, <system@...> wrote:
      Dan Roganti <ragooman@...> writes:

      >On Nov 1, 2011 10:25 AM, <system@...> wrote: > > Dan
      >Roganti <ragooman@...> writes: > > >It's  -1 Day > > > >Or,
      >Euler's Identity Day,  e^(i*pi)= -1 Or even,     Complex Number > >Day,
      >x^2= -1 > > > >The holiest of numbers ;) > > > >And both days this
      >month, actually > > How do you figure?  You haven't identified the
      >field.  Neither would be > negative on most modern byte designated
      >architectures nor in most of the > typed languages.  Are you a BLISS
      >coder? ;) >
      >
      >It's all relative. The Binary number system has no restrictive fields.
      >Binary can be any length. It's first a mathematical number system,
      >before you ever define a computer system. That's why you don't see
      >leading zeros. You must be a real party pooper ;)

      But in number theory and abstract algebra, you need a field to interpret
      your value and or apply any field axioms.  So, I guess what I'm trying to
      understand is how 11111 and 111111 are equivalent. ;)


      Because you're still thinking in Flip Flops. There's no rule saying you can't use 5bits. Also,  you don't need any hardware to use Binary math -- paper works just fine  -- or to make this joke work ;) 

      I think the term "Field Axiom" in number theory can be misconstrued - the word 'Field' doesn't elude to Flip-Flops, thus, octal or hex coding. The origin is called Axioms whenever you postulate when using math.

      =Dan




       
    • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
      ... Flip-flops? Me. I realize that you can use 5 bits; hence, my comment WRT BLISS. ;) ... I don t understand where your Flip-Flops comes into this nor have
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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        Dan Roganti <ragooman@...> writes:

        >Because you're still thinking in Flip Flops. There's no rule saying you
        >can't use 5bits. Also, you don't need any hardware to use Binary math
        >-- paper works just fine -- or to make this joke work ;)

        Flip-flops? Me. I realize that you can use 5 bits; hence, my comment
        WRT BLISS. ;)



        >I think the term "Field Axiom" in number theory can be misconstrued -
        >the word 'Field' doesn't elude to Flip-Flops, thus, octal or hex coding.
        >The origin is called Axioms whenever you postulate when using math.

        I don't understand where your Flip-Flops comes into this nor have you
        answered how 11111 = 111111.
      • Dan Roganti
        ... Because it s a joke, remember, its when your supposed to laugh ;) Twos Complement is not bound to any field, or number coding on whatever system. It s how
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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          On Nov 1, 2011 12:47 PM, <system@...> wrote:

          > I don't understand where your Flip-Flops comes into this nor have you
          > answered how 11111 = 111111.
          >

          Because it's a joke, remember, its when your supposed to laugh ;)

          Twos Complement is not bound to any field, or number coding on whatever system. It's how you implement it in hardware.

          The only rule (in shorthand) to get 2's Comp is simply
          1. Invert Binary Number
          2. Add 1

          11/1/11: 11111 is 5bit binary math - and it's still -1
          11/11/11: 111111 is 6bit binary math - and it's also -1

          The two have no logic, digital, or electronic system in common - its just math.

          =Dan

        • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
          ... 7(dec)+1(dec) is 8(dec) 111(bin)+1(bin) is 1000(bin). 8 or -8??? 2 s comp is a contrivance and has nothing to do with implementation in hardware. So, what
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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            Dan Roganti <ragooman@...> writes:

            >On Nov 1, 2011 12:47 PM, <system@...> wrote:
            >
            >> I don't understand where your Flip-Flops comes into this nor have you
            >> answered how 11111 = 111111. >
            >
            >Because it's a joke, remember, its when your supposed to laugh ;)
            >
            >Twos Complement is not bound to any field, or number coding on whatever
            >system. It's how you implement it in hardware.
            >
            >The only rule (in shorthand) to get 2's Comp is simply 1. Invert Binary
            >Number 2. Add 1

            7(dec)+1(dec) is 8(dec)

            111(bin)+1(bin) is 1000(bin).

            8 or -8???

            2's comp is a contrivance and has nothing to do with implementation in
            hardware.

            So, what you're saying is that if I add enough to 'n' it will eventually
            become negative? I don't remember the number line folding back.
          • Dan Roganti
            ... Dude, did you get any sleep??? When one specifies a size, in this case 5bit and
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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              On Nov 1, 2011 2:58 PM, <system@...> wrote:
              >

              >
              > 7(dec)+1(dec) is 8(dec)
              >
              > 111(bin)+1(bin) is 1000(bin).
              >
              > 8 or -8???

              Dude, did you get any sleep???
              When one specifies a size, in this case 5bit >>and<< signed integers (namely 2's comp), your number range is limited from
                -(2^(n-1)) to (2^(n-1))-1
              Unless of course, you intend to use doubles(or any multiple) - but then it still applies

              >
              > 2's comp is a contrivance and has nothing to do with implementation in
              > hardware.

              jeesh, we know who failed Digital 101 now do we ;)
              Don't tell me, did you actually build an Full Adder >>and<< Subtractor Logic inside your ALU for class ??

              Two's Complement is the main reason you don't need extra hardware for Subtractor logic. You simply use Adder Logic only - even in Multipliers/Dividers. And so became the prevailing dominant method -- among several reasons -- over other signed integer notation, such as, Signed Magnitude, One's Comp, etc  -- beginning in the early 60's.
              Even DEC knew that ;)

              =Dan

            • Dave McGuire
              ... Hey. HEY. Watch it there, mister! ;) -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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                On 11/01/2011 04:10 PM, Dan Roganti wrote:
                > Two's Complement is the main reason you don't need extra hardware for
                > Subtractor logic. You simply use Adder Logic only - even in
                > Multipliers/Dividers. And so became the prevailing dominant method --
                > among several reasons -- over other signed integer notation, such as,
                > Signed Magnitude, One's Comp, etc -- beginning in the early 60's.
                > Even DEC knew that ;)

                Hey. HEY. Watch it there, mister! ;)

                --
                Dave McGuire
                New Kensington, PA
              • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                ... Were did one specify the size? We re back at my first post. ... No shite sherlock but I don t have to treat that addition as producing a negative. I m
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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                  Dan Roganti <ragooman@...> writes:

                  >On Nov 1, 2011 2:58 PM, <system@...> wrote: >
                  >
                  >> > 7(dec)+1(dec) is 8(dec) > > 111(bin)+1(bin) is 1000(bin). > > 8 or
                  >-8???
                  >
                  >Dude, did you get any sleep??? When one specifies a size, in this case

                  Were did one specify the size? We're back at my first post.



                  >5bit >>and<< signed integers (namely 2's comp), your number range is
                  >limited from -(2^(n-1)) to (2^(n-1))-1 Unless of course, you intend to
                  >use doubles(or any multiple) - but then it still applies
                  >
                  >> > 2's comp is a contrivance and has nothing to do with implementation
                  >in > hardware.
                  >
                  >jeesh, we know who failed Digital 101 now do we ;) Don't tell me, did
                  >you actually build an Full Adder >>and<< Subtractor Logic inside your
                  >ALU for class ??
                  >
                  >Two's Complement is the main reason you don't need extra hardware for
                  >Subtractor logic. You simply use Adder Logic only - even in
                  >Multipliers/Dividers. And so became the prevailing dominant method --
                  >among several reasons -- over other signed integer notation, such as,

                  No shite sherlock but I don't have to treat that addition as producing
                  a negative. I'm perfectly happy, with my example, to continue counting
                  to 15 (1111) and then start it all over again. Of course, I'd generate
                  an OVERFLOW exception or set some overflow flag/status bit but I don't
                  necessarily have to. And, yes, I do understand digital logic... 1000
                  is not negative unless I intend to treat it as negative. Hence, it's a
                  contrivance.



                  >Signed Magnitude, One's Comp, etc -- beginning in the early 60's. Even
                  >DEC knew that ;)

                  where and why did they have to do with this?
                • Dan Roganti
                  ... Dude, Today is 11111 ;)
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 1, 2011
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                    On Nov 1, 2011 4:33 PM, <system@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > No shite sherlock
                    >

                    Dude,
                    Today is 11111 ;)

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