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Re: [midatlanticretro] Speaking of building stuff ...

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  • Mr Ian Primus
    ... Yeah, but it s confusing, since the connection is not a network connection. Network implies more than two devices are capable of communicating on the same
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 1 7:30 AM
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      --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:

      > Another example: I'm always trying to explain to our young
      > visitors how terminals differ from keyboards and monitors.
      > Consider the SWTPc 6800: there's a box (the computer), a
      > standalone screen, and a large-ish thing with a keyboard.
      > Best I could come up with is to explain that keyboards and
      > monitors are just accessories that plug into PCs, while
      > terminals are separate products that "talk" to a computer
      > over a network. Seems like a decent way to explain this to
      > the masses, technical details aside, right?

      Yeah, but it's confusing, since the connection is not a network connection. Network implies more than two devices are capable of communicating on the same line. You should explain how the terminal takes care of drawing the letters on the screen, and talking to the keyboard - and simply passes the characters along to the computer, and displays the characters the computer sends to it. Explain how the terminal is a separate device, capable of displaying the text, even when the computer is disconnected or shut off.

      -Ian
    • Bruce Freeman
      ... (Gmail makes it really difficult to bottom-post, and makes a very good case for top-posting. Now that I m down here, I ll go ahead...) Just a thought --
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 1 8:19 AM
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        On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:
         

        In case some of our newer members didn't know, one of the really neat things in our collection is an unassembled Morrow S-100 kit. We plan to leave it unassembled, but maybe lay out the parts and documentation, so visitors can see the "building" a computer of that period was different than building one today. Sometimes when I mention DIY computing to museum visitors, they think it's the same as plugging in modern PC components -- "Oh I built a computer too." -- ummmm not like this kind you didn't. ;

         
        (Gmail makes it really difficult to bottom-post, and makes a very good case for top-posting.  Now that I'm down here, I'll go ahead...)

        Just a thought -- get an Arduino computer kit and put it in a petri dish (it'll fit!) next to the Morrow kit.  Then give a little rundown on the comparative abilities of the two devices.  This is NOT to put down the early computers, just to make it clear how far we've come in so short a time.  The Arduino has the advantage of being roughly comparable to the early computers, even though it's a tiny, modern thing with vastly more memory (32k Flash), etc.  Comparing an modern Apple laptop to an Apple 1 conveys nothing. 

        For fun, compare the prices too -- the ATMega chip you can buy for maybe $2.50, or the Arduino board for $10 and up.  I don't know about the early kits, but for a long time desk-top computers hovered at $2500 or so while the value of that money dropped.  I think they only got cheaper around 1990 or so.  Wikipedia has a table of the consumer price index quarterly back to 1920 or so, making correction for inflation easy.

        Now for a really neat project, use the Arduino to emulate the early computer kits.  Not even quite possible due to the switch and lamp hardware those old kits used.  Maybe those could be emulated too, like on a CRT?  You could switch between programs and emulate a whole range of early computers.
        --
        Bruce
        NJ
      • Dan Roganti
        ... There s a CP/M on AVR project online that I ve been wanting to build, just to have. While not Arduino, it s still an AVR microcontroller. It s uses a SD
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 1 8:26 AM
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          On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Bruce Freeman <freemab222@...> wrote:
          Now for a really neat project, use the Arduino to emulate the early computer kits.  Not even quite possible due to the switch and lamp hardware those old kits used.  Maybe those could be emulated too, like on a CRT?  You could switch between programs and emulate a whole range of early computers.


          There's a CP/M on AVR project online that I've been wanting to build, just to have.
          While not Arduino, it's still an AVR microcontroller.
          It's uses a SD card as storage and small enough to fit in a Altoids tin can
          http://spritesmods.com/?art=avrcpm

          =Dan
          I use desktop Gmail, top or bottom post is possible. But the Gmail phone app makes it difficult to bottom post, have to use the Browser app to bottom post.
        • Evan Koblentz
          ... Many homebrew-era kits were priced in the hundreds, not thousands. Even the Apple 1 was (quite famously) $666.66.
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 1 8:26 AM
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            >>> I don't know about the early kits, but for a long time desk-top computers hovered at $2500 or so while the value of that money dropped.  I think they only got cheaper around 1990 or so. 

            Many homebrew-era kits were priced in the hundreds, not thousands. Even the Apple 1 was (quite famously) $666.66.
          • Evan Koblentz
            ... Just copy and paste the part you re quoting, put some carrots before it, type your reply, and delete the original message. That s what I have been doing
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 1 8:30 AM
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              >>> Gmail phone app makes it difficult to bottom post

              Just copy and paste the part you're quoting, put some carrots before it, type your reply, and delete the original message. That's what I have been doing all morning via BlackBerry (albeit not using Gmail.)
            • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
              ... Top-posting never makes sense! ;) http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 1 9:16 AM
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                Bruce Freeman <freemab222@...> writes:

                >On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:
                >
                >> > > In case some of our newer members didn't know, one of the really
                >neat > things in our collection is an unassembled Morrow S-100 kit. We
                >plan to > leave it unassembled, but maybe lay out the parts and
                >documentation, so > visitors can see the "building" a computer of that
                >period was different than > building one today. Sometimes when I mention
                >DIY computing to museum > visitors, they think it's the same as plugging
                >in modern PC components -- > "Oh I built a computer too." -- ummmm not
                >like this kind you didn't. ; >
                >
                >(Gmail makes it really difficult to bottom-post, and makes a very good
                >case for top-posting. Now that I'm down here, I'll go ahead...)

                Top-posting never makes sense! ;)

                http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost
              • murphnj
                ... For that matter, there is a Google labs feature Quote selected text in gmail in which you can highlight the text you want to quote, and only that text
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 1 9:37 AM
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                  On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:
                  Just copy and paste the part you're quoting, put some carrots before it, type your reply, and delete the original message. That's what I have been doing all morning via BlackBerry (albeit not using Gmail.)

                  For that matter, there is a Google labs feature "Quote selected text" in gmail in which you can highlight the text you want to quote, and only that text will show up when you click "reply."  Then you only have to click or cursor to the end to properly bottom-quote.  Very handy.

                  --
                  Team Amiga  New Jersey - The less that I speak, the smarter I sound.
                • Bruce Freeman
                  ... carried-over messages, but by its nature makes it very awkward to bottom-post. I can be just as adamant on this point as you hide-bound bottom posters! I
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 1 9:39 AM
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                    >(Gmail makes it really difficult to bottom-post, and makes a very good
                    >case for top-posting. Now that I'm down here, I'll go ahead...)

                    Top-posting never makes sense! ;)

                    http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost


                    No, it makes very good sense with Gmail.  Try it.  Gmail hides all the carried-over messages, but by its nature makes it very awkward to bottom-post.  I can be just as adamant on this point as you hide-bound bottom posters!

                    I will try to remember to bottom-post on this forum, but don't hold your breath!
                    --
                    Bruce
                    NJ
                  • Mr Ian Primus
                    ... While you re at it - lose the HTML email. HTML has no place in civilized conversation. :D -Ian
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 1 9:45 AM
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                      --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Bruce Freeman <freemab222@...> wrote:

                      >No, it makes very good sense with Gmail. Try it. Gmail hides all the
                      >carried-over messages, but by its nature makes it very awkward to
                      >bottom-post. I can be just as adamant on this point as you hide-bound
                      >bottom posters!

                      >I will try to remember to bottom-post on this forum, but don't hold your
                      >breath!


                      While you're at it - lose the HTML email. HTML has no place in civilized conversation. :D

                      -Ian
                    • Bob Schwier
                        ... When I have time, I m going to build a vintage SBC kit I have, a SD Systems Z80 Starter Kit from 1978/79:
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 1 9:58 AM
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                        On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote:

                        > In case some of our newer members didn't know, one of the really neat
                        > things in our collection is an unassembled Morrow S-100 kit. We plan to
                        > leave it unassembled, but maybe lay out the parts and documentation, so
                        > visitors can see the "building" a computer of that period was different
                        > than building one today. Sometimes when I mention DIY computing to
                        > museum visitors, they think it's the same as plugging in modern PC
                        > components -- "Oh I built a computer too." -- ummmm not like this kind
                        > you didn't. ;)

                        When I have time, I'm going to build a vintage SBC kit I have, a SD
                        Systems Z80 Starter Kit from 1978/79:

                        http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/S100/Z80Starter.jpg

                        I believe all the parts are present. It has two S-100 slots, a
                        wirewrap area, Kansas City Tape interface, 2758/2716 EPROM burner,
                        7-segment display and hex keypad, with the ZBUG monitor in ROM.

                        Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                        Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/



                        Is there a source for simple components?  It seems that bread boarding modern equivalents of the chips used at the time
                        might do the trick.  It's probably easier to get the discrete components up to the basic ttl chips than it is to get the
                        micro processor and other more advanced integrated chips.
                        bs
                      • Gene Buckle
                        ... Hey! We *like* our hide-binding! It s shiny! ... S ok, we ll be happy to remind you all the time. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 1 10:23 AM
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                          On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Bruce Freeman wrote:

                          >>
                          >>
                          >>> (Gmail makes it really difficult to bottom-post, and makes a very good
                          >>> case for top-posting. Now that I'm down here, I'll go ahead...)
                          >>
                          >> Top-posting never makes sense! ;)
                          >>
                          >> http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> No, it makes very good sense with Gmail. Try it. Gmail hides all the
                          > carried-over messages, but by its nature makes it very awkward to
                          > bottom-post. I can be just as adamant on this point as you hide-bound
                          > bottom posters!
                          >
                          Hey! We *like* our hide-binding! It's shiny!

                          > I will try to remember to bottom-post on this forum, but don't hold your
                          > breath!

                          S'ok, we'll be happy to remind you all the time. :D

                          g.


                          --
                          Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
                          http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
                          http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project

                          ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
                          A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
                          http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

                          Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
                          minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
                          holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
                          by the clean end.
                        • brian_cirulnick
                          ... Ask the kids if they know what a modem is... If they know, tell them that once upon a time, people didn t *have* COMPUTERS in the house, they were too big,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 1 11:43 AM
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                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >>> My kids are baffled by that
                            > concept.
                            >
                            > Another example: I'm always trying to explain to our young visitors how terminals differ from keyboards and monitors. Consider the SWTPc 6800: there's a box (the computer), a standalone screen, and a large-ish thing with a keyboard. Best I could come up with is to explain that keyboards and monitors are just accessories that plug into PCs, while terminals are separate products that "talk" to a computer over a network. Seems like a decent way to explain this to the masses, technical details aside, right?
                            >

                            Ask the kids if they know what a modem is... If they know, tell them that once upon a time, people didn't *have* COMPUTERS in the house, they were too big, so, terminals allowed people to connect, over the modem, to a distant computer.

                            These days we use computers to connect to the internet. But back in the old days, a single computer was kind of like a small, self-contained internet in that many people shared it's resources and worked collaboratively within a computer system. They could even "chat" with each other using a chat program on the computer that sent messages from terminal to terminal.

                            When computers got smaller, but were still housed in separate boxes from the keyboard and monitor, the terminals acted as keyboard/monitor "emulators" via a serial connection.
                          • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                            ... Does this imply that it is OK for uncivilized conversation?
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 1 1:11 PM
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                              Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus@...> writes:

                              >>No, it makes very good sense with Gmail. Try it. Gmail hides all the
                              >>carried-over messages, but by its nature makes it very awkward to
                              >>bottom-post. I can be just as adamant on this point as you hide-bound
                              >>bottom posters!
                              >
                              >>I will try to remember to bottom-post on this forum, but don't hold
                              >your >breath!
                              >
                              >
                              >While you're at it - lose the HTML email. HTML has no place in civilized
                              >conversation. :D

                              Does this imply that it is OK for uncivilized conversation?
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