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  • Evan Koblentz
    Brian, Jeff J., and yours truly filled the sixteen-foot truck today. Highlights are the IBM 1130, PDP-8e, three IBM keypunches, and a dozen teletypes. Lots
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2011
      Brian, Jeff J., and yours truly filled the sixteen-foot truck today. Highlights are the IBM 1130, PDP-8e, three IBM keypunches, and a dozen teletypes. Lots more too -- and still lots more for a second or third trip (in regular cars / vans / SUVs). We have a couple of months to sort through the homeowner's vast collection of books, manuals, and assorted hardware.

      We obviously do not * need * this many teletypes. The person who donated them understands that we'll sell or trade some, to ultimately benefit MARCH and its members. Various configurations and most have stands. Details of how to get one + prices to be determined ..... Also I'll take some camphone pics.
    • Evan Koblentz
      Got home safe, no damage to the truck, and only minor injuries to MARCH / InfoAge people. :) It was too dark when I tried taking pictures of the rescued gear
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 16, 2011
        Got home safe, no damage to the truck, and only minor injuries to MARCH
        / InfoAge people. :)

        It was too dark when I tried taking pictures of the rescued gear in its
        new home. I'll try again Sunday.
      • mejeep_ferret
        Here s a photo of me with an IBM 1130 around 1984 http://ferretronix.com/cucc/cucc_1130_me.jpg The IBM 1130 system we just got consists of - main CPU (desktop
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 16, 2011
          Here's a photo of me with an IBM 1130 around 1984
          http://ferretronix.com/cucc/cucc_1130_me.jpg

          The IBM 1130 system we just got consists of
          - main CPU (desktop with Selectric printer,
          keypunch kybd, blinkenlights,
          internal single platter hard drive)
          - IBM 2501 card reader http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/2501.html
          - 1132 printer
          - paper tape punch
          - Calcomp model 565 plotter!
          So MARCH now has all 3 versions:
          Calcomp 565, IBM 1627 model 1 and Bendix PA-3 X-Y plotter.

          My high school had a PDP8/e running EDU-25 basic all the time, so it was a homecoming for me to handle all this equipment again.

          AND there are HEAPS of AT&T 3b2s, I'll have to be selective about them. There's a 3b2/1000, /600, /400 and the very desirable maintenance manual with floppies.

          We also gained rolls of paper tape, spools of teletype paper and some wide greenbar fanfold.

          -- Jeff3 Jonas
        • Evan Koblentz
          ... Jeff, thanks for this summary. It s good to have all the models numbers in one place. To clarify for everyone else, re: the 3B2s: the homeowner has MANY
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 16, 2011
            > Here's a photo of me with an IBM 1130 around 1984
            > http://ferretronix.com/cucc/cucc_1130_me.jpg
            >
            > The IBM 1130 system we just got consists of
            > - main CPU (desktop with Selectric printer, keypunch kybd, blinkenlights, internal single platter hard drive)
            > - IBM 2501 card reader http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/2501.html
            > - 1132 printer
            > - paper tape punch
            > - Calcomp model 565 plotter!
            > So MARCH now has all 3 versions:
            > Calcomp 565, IBM 1627 model 1 and Bendix PA-3 X-Y plotter.
            >
            > My high school had a PDP8/e running EDU-25 basic all the time, so it was a homecoming for me to handle all this equipment again.
            >
            > AND there are HEAPS of AT&T 3b2s, I'll have to be selective about them. There's a 3b2/1000, /600, /400 and the very desirable maintenance manual with floppies.
            >
            > We also gained rolls of paper tape, spools of teletype paper and some wide greenbar fanfold.

            Jeff, thanks for this summary. It's good to have all the models numbers
            in one place.

            To clarify for everyone else, re: the 3B2s: the homeowner has MANY of
            these, in various models; we're not sure yet which or how many MARCH
            will obtain. This will be determined in the next few weeks.
          • Evan Koblentz
            ... PS - We also got a box full of tapes - the box says, 1130 Source - exciting stuff! Can someone donate a tape rack, such as the one in the picture here:
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 16, 2011
              > The IBM 1130 system we just got consists of
              > - main CPU (desktop with Selectric printer, keypunch kybd, blinkenlights, internal single platter hard drive)
              > - IBM 2501 card reader http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/2501.html
              > - 1132 printer
              > - paper tape punch
              > - Calcomp model 565 plotter!
              > So MARCH now has all 3 versions:
              > Calcomp 565, IBM 1627 model 1 and Bendix PA-3 X-Y plotter.

              PS - We also got a box full of tapes - the box says, "1130 Source" -
              exciting stuff!

              Can someone donate a tape rack, such as the one in the picture here:
              http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/mak-IBM-1130.html

              ... Or if not, are they still available to purchase new?
            • David Gesswein
              ... Are you referring to the disk cartridge storage rack in the picture or am I not seeing a tape rack? If so the packs are the same size as DEC RK05 so DEC
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 17, 2011
                > Can someone donate a tape rack, such as the one in the picture here:
                > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/mak-IBM-1130.html
                >
                > ... Or if not, are they still available to purchase new?
                >
                Are you referring to the disk cartridge storage rack in the picture or am
                I not seeing a tape rack?

                If so the packs are the same size as DEC RK05 so DEC racks whould work.

                How many storage slots are you needing?
              • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                ... Good day yesterday; not so good day today... at least for this old guy. Oil can! Oil can!
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 17, 2011
                  Evan Koblentz <evan@...> writes:

                  >Got home safe, no damage to the truck, and only minor injuries to MARCH
                  >/ InfoAge people. :)

                  Good day yesterday; not so good day today... at least for this old guy.

                  Oil can! Oil can!
                • mejeep_ferret
                  ... You re correct: the photo shows a disk platter rack and I m afraid we don t have any of the IBM 1130 platters. There s ONE drive in the main cabinet. I
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 18, 2011
                    >> Can someone donate a tape rack, such as the one in the picture here:
                    >> http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/mak-IBM-1130.html

                    > Are you referring to the disk cartridge storage rack

                    You're correct: the photo shows a disk platter rack
                    and I'm afraid we don't have any of the IBM 1130 platters.
                    There's ONE drive in the main cabinet.

                    I didn't have time to look in the box of tapes
                    labelled 1130 source, but I'd love to check the tapes
                    and read them to CD if possible.
                    Who has a tape drive RUNNING?

                    We also have 55 boxes of punched cards
                    labelled DM2 V12 source (Disk Monitor 12 version 12).

                    -- Jeff3 Jonas
                  • David Gesswein
                    ... DEC RK05 cartridges are mechanically compatible. They are hard sectored. I didn t find the number of sectors the 1130 used in a quick search. DEC used 12
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
                      On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:08:30PM -0000, mejeep_ferret wrote:
                      > >> Can someone donate a tape rack, such as the one in the picture here:
                      > >> http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/mak-IBM-1130.html
                      >
                      > > Are you referring to the disk cartridge storage rack
                      >
                      > You're correct: the photo shows a disk platter rack
                      > and I'm afraid we don't have any of the IBM 1130 platters.
                      > There's ONE drive in the main cabinet.
                      >
                      DEC RK05 cartridges are mechanically compatible. They are hard sectored.
                      I didn't find the number of sectors the 1130 used in a quick search.
                      DEC used 12 and 16.

                      > I didn't have time to look in the box of tapes
                      > labelled 1130 source, but I'd love to check the tapes
                      > and read them to CD if possible.
                      > Who has a tape drive RUNNING?
                      >
                      I have the TU10 800 BPI vacuum column drive that I brought to VCF and a PC
                      servo drive that does 1600/3200. For the TU10 I need to write a dumping
                      program and would want to run it some more before trying to read a
                      valuable tape. This would need to be an after VCF project unless by some
                      miracle I'm not still getting things ready at the last minute. All my drives
                      are 9 track.

                      Depending on the brand and storage the tapes may have oxide sticking/shedding
                      problems. One random tape I pulled from my stock for testing the drive
                      worked for a while then I though the servos had gone funny again since it
                      was jumping around. Closer inspection showed the tape was sticking to the
                      head then releasing in jumps. A different tape showed the drive was fine.
                    • Mike Loewen
                      ... I have an IBM 9348-012 9-track which will do 1600 and 6250 bpi. Nothing that will read 800 bpi, if that s what these are. Mike Loewen
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
                        On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:08:30PM -0000, mejeep_ferret wrote:
                        >
                        > I didn't have time to look in the box of tapes
                        > labelled 1130 source, but I'd love to check the tapes
                        > and read them to CD if possible.
                        > Who has a tape drive RUNNING?

                        I have an IBM 9348-012 9-track which will do 1600 and 6250 bpi.
                        Nothing that will read 800 bpi, if that's what these are.


                        Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                        Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                      • mejeep_ferret
                        ... I m afraid the hard sectors in the hub do not match: http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/DiskStorage.html The single platter IBM 2315 Disk is: 200 Cylinders
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
                          > DEC RK05 cartridges are mechanically compatible

                          I'm afraid the hard sectors in the hub do not match:

                          http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/DiskStorage.html

                          The single platter IBM 2315 Disk is:
                          200 Cylinders
                          2 tracks per cylinder (both disk surfaces)
                          4 Sectors per track
                          320: 16 bit Data Words per sector
                          (321: 16 bit words are stored per sector:
                          the first word is the sector address)

                          > > I didn't have time to look in the box of tapes
                          > > labelled 1130 source,

                          > Depending on the brand and storage the tapes may have
                          > oxide sticking/shedding problems

                          Understood. I can visually inspect them a little
                          but that may not reveal sticking.

                          -- jeff3 jonas
                        • David Gesswein
                          ... The tape I had problem with nothing was obvious by inspection. If its obvious recovery will be a challenge. From the description humidity was an issue for
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
                            > > Depending on the brand and storage the tapes may have
                            > > oxide sticking/shedding problems
                            >
                            > Understood. I can visually inspect them a little
                            > but that may not reveal sticking.
                            >
                            The tape I had problem with nothing was obvious by inspection. If its
                            obvious recovery will be a challenge. From the description humidity
                            was an issue for some of the stuff. Look for mildew evidence.

                            It would be good to check if any are labeled with density and 7 or 9
                            track. The certified to that the tape manufacturer labeled it with isn't
                            necessarily the density they are recorded at so a label associated with
                            the contents is a better indication.
                          • Ray Sills
                            In the professional audio world, it is often the case that long- archived tapes need to be baked . The process is just that.. spending time in a warm (not
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                              In the professional audio world, it is often the case that long-
                              archived tapes need to be "baked". The process is just that..
                              spending time in a warm (not too hot) oven. It seems to revitalize
                              the plasticizers in the tape formulation, so that they can be
                              properly played, without binding or shedding oxide (which is almost
                              always fatal for the tape). The job after baking is to re-record the
                              material on new media or to digitize the playback.

                              I don't know if this works for digital tapes, but it might. I think
                              there is a place in Freehold that specializes in the process of
                              restoring tapes, but their focus is on audio, not digital, AFAIK.

                              73 de Ray

                              On Feb 20, 2011, at 10:31 PM, David Gesswein wrote:

                              >>> Depending on the brand and storage the tapes may have
                              >>> oxide sticking/shedding problems
                              >>
                              >> Understood. I can visually inspect them a little
                              >> but that may not reveal sticking.
                              >>
                              > The tape I had problem with nothing was obvious by inspection. If its
                              > obvious recovery will be a challenge. From the description humidity
                              > was an issue for some of the stuff. Look for mildew evidence.
                              >
                              > It would be good to check if any are labeled with density and 7 or 9
                              > track. The certified to that the tape manufacturer labeled it with
                              > isn't
                              > necessarily the density they are recorded at so a label associated
                              > with
                              > the contents is a better indication.
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • David Gesswein
                              ... That method works for computer tapes also. Assuming that others haven t archived tapes with similar contents it might be good to consult with others who
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                                On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 08:28:02AM -0500, Ray Sills wrote:
                                > In the professional audio world, it is often the case that long-
                                > archived tapes need to be "baked". The process is just that..
                                > spending time in a warm (not too hot) oven. It seems to revitalize
                                > the plasticizers in the tape formulation, so that they can be
                                > properly played, without binding or shedding oxide (which is almost
                                > always fatal for the tape). The job after baking is to re-record the
                                > material on new media or to digitize the playback.
                                >
                                > I don't know if this works for digital tapes, but it might. I think
                                > there is a place in Freehold that specializes in the process of
                                > restoring tapes, but their focus is on audio, not digital, AFAIK.
                                >
                                That method works for computer tapes also. Assuming that others haven't
                                archived tapes with similar contents it might be good to consult with others
                                who have archvied tapes to find out if they know how to tell which tapes
                                should be baked first (brand etc), if they always bake or only if
                                problems. If the tape is bad enough the oxide can stick to the head or
                                other parts and be removed. Waiting until you have problem can mean that
                                portion of the tape is unrecoverable. My tape didn't shed oxide when it stuck.

                                I think Al Kossow has been dealing with this and if not should
                                know who.

                                Some more info from quick search.
                                http://ibm-1401.info/TricksForMagTapes.html
                                http://www.imaginar.org/dppd/DPPD/126%20pp%20Magnetic%20Tape%20Storage.pdf
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky-shed_syndrome
                              • Dan Roganti
                                ... Just a quick thought here, The analog signal on audio tapes tend to be more resilient in the presence of heat, the human ear is tolerable to the slight
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                                  > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 08:28:02AM -0500, Ray Sills wrote:
                                  >> In the professional audio world, it is often the case that long-
                                  >> archived tapes need to be "baked".  The process is just that..
                                  >> spending time in a warm (not too hot) oven.  It seems to revitalize
                                  >> the plasticizers in the tape formulation, so that they can be
                                  >> properly played, without binding or shedding oxide (which is almost
                                  >> always fatal for the tape).

                                  Just a quick thought here,
                                  The analog signal on audio tapes tend to be more resilient in the
                                  presence of heat, the human ear is tolerable to the slight inaudible
                                  imperfections of the signal in this regard - without using a digital
                                  editing station of course .
                                  But digital tapes, while they still use analog to record binary, are
                                  really not so resilient - the data is packed ever so tightly versus an
                                  audio tape so heat can have a huge degrading effect on the microscopic
                                  circles of magnetic flux rather quickly to where you start losing
                                  bits.
                                  Which is why they usually kept in a controlled environment to maintain
                                  their reliability, and not where there's any heat, humidity, etc. Then
                                  you just have to worry about the typical magnetic flux degrading after
                                  30-40yrs :)
                                • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                  ... This is why backup programs which were intended to be used for recovery and restoration, and not as time wasting operations for tape operators, used BCH
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                                    Dan Roganti <ragooman@...> writes:

                                    >> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 08:28:02AM -0500, Ray Sills wrote: >> In the
                                    >professional audio world, it is often the case that long- >> archived
                                    >tapes need to be "baked". =A0The process is just that.. >> spending time
                                    >in a warm (not too hot) oven. =A0It seems to revitalize >> the
                                    >plasticizers in the tape formulation, so that they can be >> properly
                                    >played, without binding or shedding oxide (which is almost >> always
                                    >fatal for the tape).
                                    >
                                    >Just a quick thought here, The analog signal on audio tapes tend to be
                                    >more resilient in the presence of heat, the human ear is tolerable to
                                    >the slight inaudible imperfections of the signal in this regard -
                                    >without using a digital editing station of course . But digital tapes,
                                    >while they still use analog to record binary, are really not so
                                    >resilient - the data is packed ever so tightly versus an audio tape so
                                    >heat can have a huge degrading effect on the microscopic circles of
                                    >magnetic flux rather quickly to where you start losing bits. Which is
                                    >why they usually kept in a controlled environment to maintain their
                                    >reliability, and not where there's any heat, humidity, etc. Then you
                                    >just have to worry about the typical magnetic flux degrading after
                                    >30-40yrs :)

                                    This is why backup programs which were intended to be used for recovery
                                    and restoration, and not as time wasting operations for tape operators,
                                    used BCH EDC codes and a blocking factor when writing data to the tape.
                                  • David Gesswein
                                    ... The BCH error correcting codes did exist in the 1130 time frame but expect were not used for these tapes. I didn t run across hardware/programs that used
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                                      >> Much cut on baking tapes etc to recover from binder deterioration

                                      On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:03:14AM -0500, system@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > This is why backup programs which were intended to be used for recovery
                                      > and restoration, and not as time wasting operations for tape operators,
                                      > used BCH EDC codes and a blocking factor when writing data to the tape.
                                      >
                                      The BCH error correcting codes did exist in the 1130 time frame but expect
                                      were not used for these tapes. I didn't run across hardware/programs that
                                      used them until much later systems. How far back did you see them in use?
                                      The 1130 is 1965 time frame. Anybody know when the machine was retired?

                                      Since the system we got didn't have a tape drive do we know what the tapes
                                      were used on/for? Are these IBM labeled distribution tapes or user backup
                                      tapes? Were their pictures of the tapes I missed?
                                    • Dan Roganti
                                      ... While I m not familiar with this machine, I worked on Tape controller designs that originated from 75 where it s common to include hardware for this. In
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 21, 2011
                                        On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:37 AM, David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
                                        >> Much cut on baking tapes etc to recover from binder deterioration

                                        On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:03:14AM -0500, system@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > This is why backup programs which were intended to be used for recovery
                                        > and restoration, and not as time wasting operations for tape operators,
                                        > used BCH EDC codes and a blocking factor when writing data to the tape.
                                        >
                                        The BCH error correcting codes did exist in the 1130 time frame but expect
                                        were not used for these tapes. I didn't run across hardware/programs that
                                        used them until much later systems. How far back did you see them in use?
                                        The 1130 is 1965 time frame. Anybody know when the machine was retired?

                                        While I'm not familiar with this machine, I worked on Tape controller designs that originated from '75 where it's common to include hardware for this. In general, the Linear Feedback Shift Register circuits generating BCH codes go back as far the 1950's along with the decoding algorithms. I would expect IBM too would have this in their system.



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