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Re: [midatlanticretro] Proposed NJ law may impact our hobby

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  • Bill Degnan
    ... be ... which ... hobbyist ... misleading ... I am sure if you don t have derelict computers in open sight of the public you re fine. We should assume the
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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      > >
      > I think he needs a better lawyer, because a >hobbyist< should not/cannot
      be
      > confused as a disposal facility - that's absurd. Hopefully the public
      > meeting will allow this policy to elaborate the differences between
      > hobbyists. It's one thing to have a pile of junk on your lawn/backyard
      which
      > can violate many city ordinances, but to confuse one's status as a
      hobbyist
      > is inexcusable. BTW, their definition of collector in that doc is
      misleading
      > since it's in the context of waste mgmt.
      >


      I am sure if you don't have derelict computers in open sight of the public
      you're fine. We should assume the same laws and precendents for old car
      collectors would apply to old tech collectors.

      bd
    • Kelly D. Leavitt
      I think he needs a better lawyer, because a hobbyist
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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        I think he needs a better lawyer, because a >hobbyist< should not/cannot be confused as a disposal facility - that's absurd. Hopefully the public meeting will allow this policy to elaborate the differences between hobbyists. It's one thing to have a pile of junk on your lawn/backyard which can violate many city ordinances, but to confuse one's status as a hobbyist is inexcusable. BTW, their definition of collector in that doc is misleading since it's in the context of waste mgmt.

        =Dan


        But that's the thing. It's harder than you think for an inspecting official to delineate where a "hobbyist" ends and a waste facility begins. I don't know about you, but I can't afford more than a few minutes of time from a lawyer that specializes in environmental law. That's why we need to think about this now.

        I'm also not saying this anything bad will result from this action in NJ, just that there may be issues and we may want to comment. Overall, recycling is an OK thing. It's may not be as green as a lot think, but it is at least better than dumping everyting into a landfill.

        A lot of the electronics we recycle are dealt with properly. However, sometimes they end up in places like this:
        http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/10/video-chinas-toxic-wastelands-of-consumer-electronics-revealed/

        Let's hope that we can prevent stuff like this with reasonable recycling policies. I know of one recycler down the road from me that just grinds everything up (including cases) and ships it by the container to China. All to the highest bidder.
      • Kelly D. Leavitt
        ... In this part of NJ, all cars visible (even under cover) on your property must be registered (with valid plates) and insured. These are local (town by town)
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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          > We should assume the same laws and precendents for old car
          > collectors would apply to old tech collectors.

          In this part of NJ, all cars visible (even under cover) on your property must be registered (with valid plates) and insured. These are local (town by town) land use ordinaces. Failure to do so can result in heavy fines.

          In some developments you can't even have a for sale sign on a car in your own driveway. These are typically restrictive covenants on your deed.
        • Mike Hatch
          As a collector across the pond here in the UK, I find our laws rather like that proposed by NJ have made NO difference to my collecting or disposal of old
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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            As a collector across the pond here in the UK, I find our laws rather like that proposed by NJ have made NO difference to my collecting or disposal of old electronics, it may even have helped in finding "new" old stuff, people now use channels like FreeCycle and CraigList rather than dumping the kit.

            We have had the WEEE (The Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive) regulations for a couple of years now, it forces manufacturers and retailers to have a returns channel for consumers to be able return their old electronics and electricals to the point of origin for correct disposal when purchasing new kit, most times free or minor cost. WEEE covers anything electrical, including all forms of batteries.

            Also our local councils usually run recycling centers where the public can return old electronics and electricals for free, but if you cannot shift it, most councils will come and get it, again usually for free.

            In my view it is a positive improvement and has not been difficult to adhere to.

            As for the use of lead solder, again no problems, it is still readily available but can only be used for the repair of older pre-non lead regulation equipment, so all of my vintage stuff can still be worked on and repaired with impunity. New builds or repair of new equipment must be with non-leaded solder, no problem.

            I can't speak for Europe, their regs are a bit different, but places like Germany have been doing this for some years.

            Mike.
          • Christian Liendo
            I have looked though this so far and I don t see anything that seems restrictive. Then again I am not a lawyer, no do I play one on TV. With more eyes looking
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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              I have looked though this so far and I don't see anything that seems restrictive. Then again I am not a lawyer, no do I play one on TV.

              With more eyes looking at it someone may find a line that could be a problem.

              BTW: Kelly thanks for posting this because you know there may be something that I am missing that may in fact in here. So far it looks good.
            • Systems Glitch
              Same here in Capitaland, NY...at least in some localities. I m aware of at least one old radio hobbyist who said, after getting in an argument with a neighbor,
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                Same here in Capitaland, NY...at least in some localities. I'm aware of at least one old radio hobbyist who said, after getting in an argument with a neighbor, the city paid him a visit to ask about the "hazardous electronics waste" he was storing in his shed.

                You're also not allowed to park a commercial vehicle even semi-permanently in the street. So if you're a dump truck owner/operator and you live in a house that only has street parking, you're SOL.

                A lot of these seemingly for-the-greater-good regulations do have negative impact when the law is misunderstood by authorities enforcing it or abused by those looking to do others harm. Of course, that can be said of most laws. I'd fully support a law that plainly stated, "no one is allowed to put electronics in the municipal waste."

                --Jonathan

                On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:20:26 -0400
                "Kelly D. Leavitt" <kelly@...> wrote:

                > > We should assume the same laws and precendents for old car
                > > collectors would apply to old tech collectors.
                >
                > In this part of NJ, all cars visible (even under cover) on your property must be registered (with valid plates) and insured. These are local (town by town) land use ordinaces. Failure to do so can result in heavy fines.
                >
                > In some developments you can't even have a for sale sign on a car in your own driveway. These are typically restrictive covenants on your deed.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Bob Applegate
                ... How do you define electronics? One person s old flashlight is another person s electronics. How about an LED flashlight? That uses a semiconductor. I ve
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                  > A lot of these seemingly for-the-greater-good regulations do have negative
                  > impact when the law is misunderstood by authorities enforcing it or abused
                  > by those looking to do others harm. Of course, that can be said of most
                  > laws. I'd fully support a law that plainly stated, "no one is allowed to
                  > put electronics in the municipal waste."

                  How do you define electronics? One person's old flashlight is another
                  person's electronics. How about an LED flashlight? That uses a
                  semiconductor.

                  I've put aluminum tubing into recycling (yesterday, as a matter of fact)
                  but the recycling crew refused to take it even though our township rules
                  clearly state that aluminum is to be recycled. My assumption is that they
                  assumed it was steel.

                  And yes, I've dealt a lot with the WEEE and RoHS rules at another company.
                  The leadless solder grows whiskers which can eventually cause
                  shorts/failures in the circuit, which is why there are so many exemptions
                  being allowed. It was a great rule for the environment, but didn't work
                  all that well so a lot of loopholes were put into place just to get around
                  the issues. Rules without the knowledge to understand the impact of them
                  are often bad.

                  It'll take some court cases for the NJ rule to get better defined.
                  Hopefully it won't be my lawyer helping with the definition ;-)

                  Bob
                • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                    Christian Liendo <christian_liendo@...> writes:

                    >I know people in California with racks in their houses that have more than =
                    >5 computers
                    >
                    >In fact I know a guy in NJ with the same.

                    :)
                  • Christian Liendo
                    I know,, I don t want to hear the complaints.. I know someone will want this.. It s in DEEP long Island.. http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                      I know,, I don't want to hear the complaints.. I know someone will want this..

                      It's in DEEP long Island..

                      http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html

                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... Let s not turn this thread into a cctalk-esque ramble. :)
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                        >>> A lot of these seemingly for-the-greater-good regulations do have negative impact when the law is misunderstood by authorities enforcing it or abused by those looking to do others harm. Of course, that can be said of most laws.

                        Let's not turn this thread into a cctalk-esque ramble. :)
                      • Bill Degnan
                        If anyone gets this let me know I have software and if you bring the system to InfoAge for the party, or my office whenever I can make copies, etc. Bill Degnan
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                          If anyone gets this let me know I have software and if you bring the system
                          to InfoAge for the party, or my office whenever I can make copies, etc.

                          Bill Degnan

                          -------- Original Message --------
                          > From: "Christian Liendo" <christian_liendo@...>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:27 PM
                          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Xerox 820 on Craigslist $75
                          >
                          > I know,, I don't want to hear the complaints.. I know someone will want
                          this..
                          >
                          > It's in DEEP long Island..
                          >
                          > http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html
                        • Bill Degnan
                          By the way, thanks Christian. This is worth posting. I am going tonight to pick up a PDP 11/34 with cabinet and twin RL01 drives that I got from craigslist.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                            By the way, thanks Christian. This is worth posting.

                            I am going tonight to pick up a PDP 11/34 with cabinet and twin RL01 drives
                            that I got from craigslist. $150. I am surprised no one saw that. I just
                            happened to see the listing, it's an older one and I emailed the guy on a
                            whim. To my surprise it was still available.

                            Bill Degnan

                            -------- Original Message --------
                            > From: "Christian Liendo" <christian_liendo@...>
                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:27 PM
                            > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Xerox 820 on Craigslist $75
                            >
                            > I know,, I don't want to hear the complaints.. I know someone will want
                            this..
                            >
                            > It's in DEEP long Island..
                            >
                            > http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html
                          • Mike Loewen
                            ... I hate you.... :-) Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                              On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Bill Degnan wrote:

                              > I am going tonight to pick up a PDP 11/34 with cabinet and twin RL01 drives
                              > that I got from craigslist. $150. I am surprised no one saw that. I just
                              > happened to see the listing, it's an older one and I emailed the guy on a
                              > whim. To my surprise it was still available.

                              I hate you.... :-)


                              Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                              Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                            • RonK
                              My questions is, Why didn t the Government see this coming, and plan for electronic recycling in advance? What really irked me was that the Digital TV
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 27, 2010
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                                My questions is, "Why didn't the Government see this coming, and plan for electronic recycling in advance?"

                                What really irked me was that the Digital TV transition was in the works for ten years. Didn't any of our Government reps realize that when the transition day hit, that millions of TV's were going to get dumped? Yea, I know there were converter boxes made available, and cable and satellite are common, but the digital transition and the cost reduction of flat-screen and HD sets really put "a whole-lota-TVs" into the dumpsters. How 'bout a little "Planning Ahead", Government guys?
                              • system@great-escape.tmesis.com
                                ... C mon. Your question is self-answering. Government. ... Not that many TVs were dumped; most of the TVs sold in the past several years were capable. Only
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 28, 2010
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                                  "RonK" <rkushnier@...> writes:

                                  >My questions is, "Why didn't the Government see this coming, and plan for e=
                                  >lectronic recycling in advance?"=20

                                  C'mon. Your question is self-answering. Government.



                                  >What really irked me was that the Digital TV transition was in the works fo=
                                  >r ten years. Didn't any of our Government reps realize that when the transi=
                                  >tion day hit, that millions of TV's were going to get dumped? Yea, I know t=
                                  >here were converter boxes made available, and cable and satellite are commo=
                                  >n, but the digital transition and the cost reduction of flat-screen and HD =
                                  >sets really put "a whole-lota-TVs" into the dumpsters. How 'bout a little =

                                  Not that many TVs were dumped; most of the TVs sold in the past several
                                  years were capable. Only Grandmas and Grandpas watching reruns of "The
                                  Golden Girls" on their old Philco portable (on a TV cart portable) with
                                  rabbit ears would have been affected.

                                  These laws, the one that spawned this thread, only lead to more illegal
                                  dumping as people get entangled in the verbiage of them. Taxes on our
                                  homes -- colloquially termed "permits" (if it smells like a tax, it's a
                                  tax) -- are like this new law. People are flocking to their local Home
                                  Depots and Lowes these days doing home renovation projects requiring the
                                  application for a permit without ever doing so, and to cover up that they
                                  have done any permit required improvements, they hide, illegally dump or
                                  bury many materials that should be recycled. Don't think so? Drive in
                                  the more rural areas of my town or down through "the barrens" and look in
                                  the wooded areas just off the roadways at all of the trash -- electrical,
                                  plumbing, furnaces and water heaters, roofing materials, asbestos siding,
                                  etc. -- that's been put there by over-zealous government regulation and
                                  permit taxes.



                                  >"Planning Ahead", Government guys?

                                  They do... to their re-election. Anything else they do is just to pass
                                  the time until re-election campaigning and, more and more, that becomes
                                  their full-time occupation.

                                  Hold your nose on Tuesday and vote employing the GROIN-PAIN methodology!
                                  Get Rid Of Incumbent Nitwit Politicians And Install New. Sorry, but if
                                  anyone thinks the Dumborats or Repungnantcans do anything, you're fooling
                                  yourselves. Oust the Ds with Rs and the Rs with Ds or some other party's
                                  candidate not affilated with either, and continue to do so until they get
                                  back to a "government of the people, by the people, for the people" or it
                                  will "perish from the earth."

                                  The solution isn't more Government; the problem is more Government!

                                  The opposite of progress is Congress.

                                  Brian, who's somewhere on the political spectrum between libertarianism
                                  and total anarchy.
                                • Bob Schwier
                                  It offered a twenty dollar coupon for forty dollar translation boxes. bs ... From: RonK Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Proposed NJ law
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 28, 2010
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                                    It offered a twenty dollar coupon for forty dollar translation boxes.
                                    bs

                                    --- On Wed, 10/27/10, RonK <rkushnier@...> wrote:

                                    From: RonK <rkushnier@...>
                                    Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Proposed NJ law may impact our hobby
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 6:13 PM

                                     



                                    My questions is, "Why didn't the Government see this coming, and plan for electronic recycling in advance?"

                                    What really irked me was that the Digital TV transition was in the works for ten years. Didn't any of our Government reps realize that when the transition day hit, that millions of TV's were going to get dumped? Yea, I know there were converter boxes made available, and cable and satellite are common, but the digital transition and the cost reduction of flat-screen and HD sets really put "a whole-lota-TVs" into the dumpsters. How 'bout a little "Planning Ahead", Government guys?


                                  • Sridhar Ayengar
                                    ... I would sue if they even *spoke* those words with me. Those words being spoken by a representative of my local government has a reasonable possibility of
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 28, 2010
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                                      Systems Glitch wrote:
                                      > Same here in Capitaland, NY...at least in some localities. I'm aware
                                      > of at least one old radio hobbyist who said, after getting in an
                                      > argument with a neighbor, the city paid him a visit to ask about the
                                      > "hazardous electronics waste" he was storing in his shed.

                                      I would sue if they even *spoke* those words with me. "Those words
                                      being spoken by a representative of my local government has a reasonable
                                      possibility of doing me material harm by devaluing my collection."

                                      Peace... Sridhar
                                    • Christian Liendo
                                      Did anyone ever contact this guy? The listing is still up http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                        Did anyone ever contact this guy? The listing is still up

                                        http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html
                                      • Jason T
                                        On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Christian Liendo ... Gone now?
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                          On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Christian Liendo
                                          <christian_liendo@...> wrote:
                                          > Did anyone ever contact this guy? The listing is still up
                                          >
                                          > http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028169994.html

                                          Gone now?
                                        • Christian Liendo
                                          I guess it is gone now.. Someone here must have gotten it. ... Gone now?
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                            I guess it is gone now.. Someone here must have gotten it.

                                            --- On Tue, 11/2/10, Jason T <silent700@...> wrote:
                                            Gone now?
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.