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RE: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...

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  • Evan
    Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards, t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage s site, etc. Maybe I ll check out that cafepress web site so
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 9, 2005
      Yes indeed!  Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards, t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
       
      Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and it always turned out great.


      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Giliberti
      Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...

      Evan wrote:

      >It's on our Yahoo homepage right
      now.
      >
      >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of
      time and
      >creative juice into this.
      >
      >Moreover, Jeff was
      patient and really listened to my art-challenged opinions
      >and demands
      until it came out perfect.  I heartily endorse him for any
      >freelance
      projects.

      >
      It does indeed look awesome. Great work!

    • Dan
      Evan, While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler. The Pacman isn t in the public domain yet. Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
        Evan,

        While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
        The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
        Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
        organizations.
        I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
        Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
        about these things.
        Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.

        keeping you covered,
        =Dan

        .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
        [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
        [Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot? http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
        [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
        .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.



        Evan wrote:

        > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
        > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
        >
        > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
        > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
        > it always turned out great.
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
        > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
        > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
        >
        > Evan wrote:
        >
        > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
        > >
        > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
        > >creative juice into this.
        > >
        > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
        > opinions
        > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
        > >freelance projects.
        > >
        > >
        > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS
        > Vintage computer
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
        > Computer security
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
        > Computer training
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
        >
        > Field trip
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >No virus found in this incoming message.
        >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
        >
        >


        --
        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
      • B. Degnan
        we can use the Commodore logo (C=) if need be, I spoke with a representative of the company that purchased Commodore to find out what we were and not allowed
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
          we can use the Commodore logo (C=) if need be, I spoke with a
          representative of the company that purchased Commodore to find out what we
          were and not allowed to do as vintage computer hobbyists on printed/display
          materials.
          Bill

          At 07:30 AM 11/10/2005 -0500, you wrote:
          >Evan,
          >
          >While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
          >The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
          >Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
          >organizations.
          >I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
          >Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
          >about these things.
          >Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.
          >
          >keeping you covered,
          >=Dan
          >
          >.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
          >[My Corner of
          >Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
          >[Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got
          >Robot? http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
          >[Pittsburgh Vintage
          >Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
          >.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
          >
          >
          >
          >Evan wrote:
          >
          > > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
          > > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
          > >
          > > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
          > > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
          > > it always turned out great.
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
          > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
          > > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
          > >
          > > Evan wrote:
          > >
          > > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
          > > >
          > > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
          > > >creative juice into this.
          > > >
          > > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
          > > opinions
          > > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
          > > >freelance projects.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > SPONSORED LINKS
          > > Vintage computer
          > >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
          >
          > > Computer security
          > >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
          >
          > > Computer training
          > >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
          >
          > >
          > > Field trip
          > >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
          > >
          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >No virus found in this incoming message.
          > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >--
          >No virus found in this outgoing message.
          >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Jim Scheef
          Dan, Good catch! This is not something where we can ask forgiveness rather than permission. We can t afford postage to answer a cease and desist letter! I ll
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
            Dan,

            Good catch! This is not something where we can ask forgiveness rather than
            permission. We can't afford postage to answer a cease and desist letter!

            I'll see if I can figure out how to contact Namco. In the meantime, we should
            look for an alternative for that letter.

            Other than this, the logo *is* perfect.

            Jim

            --- Dan <ragooman@...> wrote:

            > Evan,
            >
            > While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
            > The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
            > Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
            > organizations.
            > I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
            > Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
            > about these things.
            > Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.
            >
            > keeping you covered,
            > =Dan
            >
            >
            .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
            > [My Corner of Cyberspace
            > http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
            > [Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot?
            > http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
            > [Pittsburgh Vintage
            > Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
            >
            .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
            >
            >
            >
            > Evan wrote:
            >
            > > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
            > > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
            > >
            > > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
            > > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
            > > it always turned out great.
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
            > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
            > > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
            > >
            > > Evan wrote:
            > >
            > > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
            > > >
            > > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
            > > >creative juice into this.
            > > >
            > > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
            > > opinions
            > > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
            > > >freelance projects.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > SPONSORED LINKS
            > > Vintage computer
            > >
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
            >
            > > Computer security
            > >
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
            >
            > > Computer training
            > >
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
            >
            > >
            > > Field trip
            > >
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
            > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
            > >
            > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            > >
            > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >No virus found in this incoming message.
            > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
            >
            >
          • relayer
            ... Thanks for the kudos. Evan and I were chewing up the landline for a while last night tweaking the logo. The infringement possibility did come up about
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Jim Scheef <jscheef@y...> wrote:
              > Other than this, the logo *is* perfect.

              Thanks for the kudos.

              Evan and I were chewing up the landline for a while last night
              tweaking the logo. The infringement possibility did come up about
              Pacman, but it was decided to leave it at the time pending peer
              response to the logo.

              I'm working on the recent suggestion of replacing the pacman with the
              Commodore 'chicken head' logo. The vivid Commodore colors seem to
              stand out quite a bit, so I will probably subdue the colors to match
              the tone of the overall image while keeping the shape.

              I'll probably submit my changes to Evan and have him release the next
              review candidate to the group.

              Jeff
            • Frank_OBrien
              Hi all; For some reason, I m having trouble sending messages - Apologies if this is repeated.... Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                Hi all;


                For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                this is repeated....

                Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                significant issues with the logo.

                Dan is correct - On a practical level, there is *NO* way that any
                corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are
                struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                able to afford the shirt.

                Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                All the best,

                Frank
              • Evan
                Why would we want a currently trendy logo for a vintage organization? Jeff s looks nice and 70s/80s and that s why we all like it. The background image and the
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                  Why would we want a currently trendy logo for a vintage organization?  Jeff's looks nice and 70s/80s and that's why we all like it.
                   
                  The background image and the M image (a front panel) are unidentifiable snippets.  No one can say, "hey that's MY random circuit board image in the background".
                   
                  For printing purposes, I'm checking out CafePress.com, which does things methodically and (more imporant) cheaply.
                   
                  Of course, anyone is welcome to submit logo ideas -- no one here is the Chief Logo Officer or anything.


                  From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                  Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                  To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                  Hi all;


                  For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                  this is repeated....

                  Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                  significant issues with the logo.

                  Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                  corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                  of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                  Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                  the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                  group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                  was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                  patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                  which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                  registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                  of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                  Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                  terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                  been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                  nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                  get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                  Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                  The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                  logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                  most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                  perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                  they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                  beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                  Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                  Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                  is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                  is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                  The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                  priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                  stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                  color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                  cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                  format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                  struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                  able to afford the shirt.

                  Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                  All the best,

                  Frank



                • Bryan Pope
                  ... Oooo!! I vote for the Commodore logo! :-D Cheers, Bryan
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                    > I'm working on the recent suggestion of replacing the pacman with the
                    > Commodore 'chicken head' logo. The vivid Commodore colors seem to
                    > stand out quite a bit, so I will probably subdue the colors to match
                    > the tone of the overall image while keeping the shape.

                    Oooo!! I vote for the Commodore logo! :-D

                    Cheers,

                    Bryan
                  • Evan
                    Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products. (Logos, yes, but not pictures.) After all, newspapers and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                      Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                       
                      After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                      Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                      Hi all;


                      For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                      this is repeated....

                      Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                      significant issues with the logo.

                      Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                      corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                      of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                      Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                      the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                      group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                      was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                      patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                      which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                      registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                      of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                      Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                      terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                      been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                      nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                      get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                      Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                      The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                      logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                      most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                      perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                      they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                      beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                      Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                      Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                      is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                      is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                      The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                      priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                      stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                      color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                      cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                      format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                      struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                      able to afford the shirt.

                      Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                      All the best,

                      Frank



                    • Evan
                      Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer s DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                        Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer's DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists entirely of an ACTUAL BARN (complete with pigs and other farmland creatures) and most of his computers sit atop wooden tables with red-and-white checkered tableclothes of the sort you'd see in a pizzeria.
                         
                        It doesn't take anything too fancy to have a cool display.   :)


                        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                        Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:31 PM
                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                        Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                         
                        After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                        Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                        Hi all;


                        For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                        this is repeated....

                        Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                        significant issues with the logo.

                        Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                        corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                        of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                        Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                        the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                        group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                        was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                        patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                        which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                        registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                        of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                        Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                        terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                        been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                        nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                        get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                        Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                        The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                        logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                        most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                        perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                        they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                        beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                        Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                        Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                        is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                        is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                        The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                        priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                        stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                        color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                        cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                        format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                        struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                        able to afford the shirt.

                        Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                        All the best,

                        Frank



                      • Evan
                        LOL, addendum to the addendum... the comments about DigiBarn were supposed to be attached to my own message about InfoAge expectations, not the the message
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                          LOL, addendum to the addendum... the comments about DigiBarn were supposed to be attached to my own message about InfoAge expectations, not the the message about permissions and stuff.  My bad.


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                          Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:38 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                          Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer's DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists entirely of an ACTUAL BARN (complete with pigs and other farmland creatures) and most of his computers sit atop wooden tables with red-and-white checkered tableclothes of the sort you'd see in a pizzeria.
                           
                          It doesn't take anything too fancy to have a cool display.   :)


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                          Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:31 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                          Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                           
                          After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                          Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                          Hi all;


                          For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                          this is repeated....

                          Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                          significant issues with the logo.

                          Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                          corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                          of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                          Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                          the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                          group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                          was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                          patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                          which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                          registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                          of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                          Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                          terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                          been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                          nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                          get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                          Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                          The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                          logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                          most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                          perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                          they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                          beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                          Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                          Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                          is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                          is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                          The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                          priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                          stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                          color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                          cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                          format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                          struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                          able to afford the shirt.

                          Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                          All the best,

                          Frank



                        • relayer
                          ... Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo on a shirt. And the logo doesn t need to always be in the alligator position. Even
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Frank_OBrien <no_reply@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                            > priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                            > stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single

                            Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo
                            on a shirt. And the logo doesn't need to always be in the "alligator"
                            position. Even on a polo shirt, the logo scales down fairly well.

                            CafePress was the suggested source for shirts. Their process is
                            similar to the iron-on printer transfers used since the 90's. However,
                            the technology has improved greatly since then, where image detail and
                            color saturation can be preserved. You can also get buttons,
                            mousepads, mugs, hats, etc. Try to stitch a logo on a mug.

                            Almost all of the items at CafePress are less than $30 with the logo.
                            And to pre-emptively answer the durability question, my wife bought a
                            cloth apron from CafePress three years ago with her soapmaking logo on
                            it. It still looks good after three years of wear and washings.

                            > color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                            > cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                            > format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are

                            I disagree. I printed the logo on a 600dpi color laser printer which
                            is inferior to the card printing systems used at Kinko's, Office Max,
                            etc. I was able to scale the image down to 1.5 x 0.6 inches and I
                            could still make out the text and graphics. I expect the business card
                            printing services at the office supply print shops to be at least
                            1200dpi. More than enough resolution to maintain detail. Prices on
                            full color business cards are also much closer to that of single color
                            cards than they were years ago.

                            I'm not trying to aggressively defend the logo as-is because I helped
                            to develop it. I'm simply arguing the point that even though the
                            computer collections we have may be old, the technology to use for
                            promoting the group and logo doesn't need to be. There are newer,
                            cheaper, and better methods.
                          • Sridhar Ayengar
                            ... I ll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon. Just putting the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn t mind donating half the proceeds to
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                              relayer wrote:
                              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Frank_OBrien <no_reply@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >>The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                              >>priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                              >>stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                              >
                              >
                              > Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo
                              > on a shirt. And the logo doesn't need to always be in the "alligator"
                              > position. Even on a polo shirt, the logo scales down fairly well.
                              >
                              > CafePress was the suggested source for shirts. Their process is
                              > similar to the iron-on printer transfers used since the 90's. However,
                              > the technology has improved greatly since then, where image detail and
                              > color saturation can be preserved. You can also get buttons,
                              > mousepads, mugs, hats, etc. Try to stitch a logo on a mug.
                              >
                              > Almost all of the items at CafePress are less than $30 with the logo.
                              > And to pre-emptively answer the durability question, my wife bought a
                              > cloth apron from CafePress three years ago with her soapmaking logo on
                              > it. It still looks good after three years of wear and washings.
                              >
                              >
                              >>color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                              >>cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                              >>format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are
                              >
                              >
                              > I disagree. I printed the logo on a 600dpi color laser printer which
                              > is inferior to the card printing systems used at Kinko's, Office Max,
                              > etc. I was able to scale the image down to 1.5 x 0.6 inches and I
                              > could still make out the text and graphics. I expect the business card
                              > printing services at the office supply print shops to be at least
                              > 1200dpi. More than enough resolution to maintain detail. Prices on
                              > full color business cards are also much closer to that of single color
                              > cards than they were years ago.
                              >
                              > I'm not trying to aggressively defend the logo as-is because I helped
                              > to develop it. I'm simply arguing the point that even though the
                              > computer collections we have may be old, the technology to use for
                              > promoting the group and logo doesn't need to be. There are newer,
                              > cheaper, and better methods.

                              I'll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon. Just putting
                              the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn't mind donating half the
                              proceeds to the club. Would the club be interested?

                              Peace... Sridhar
                            • Evan
                              What kind of stuff do you plan to sell? ... the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn t mind donating half the proceeds to the club. Would the club be
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
                                What kind of stuff do you plan to sell?
                                 
                                >>>> I'll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon.  Just putting the final touches on the graphics.  I wouldn't mind donating half the proceeds to the club.  Would the club be interested?

                                Peace...  Sridhar

                                 
                                 
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