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Check it out! Awesome new logo...

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  • Evan
    It s on our Yahoo homepage right now. ** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and creative juice into this. Moreover, Jeff was patient
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 9, 2005
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      It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.

      ** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
      creative juice into this.

      Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged opinions
      and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
      freelance projects.


      -----------------------------------------
      Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net

      Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com

      Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/
    • Joe Giliberti
      ... It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 9, 2005
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        Evan wrote:

        >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
        >
        >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
        >creative juice into this.
        >
        >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged opinions
        >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
        >freelance projects.
        >
        >
        It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
      • Evan
        Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards, t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage s site, etc. Maybe I ll check out that cafepress web site so
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 9, 2005
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          Yes indeed!  Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards, t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
           
          Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and it always turned out great.


          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Giliberti
          Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...

          Evan wrote:

          >It's on our Yahoo homepage right
          now.
          >
          >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of
          time and
          >creative juice into this.
          >
          >Moreover, Jeff was
          patient and really listened to my art-challenged opinions
          >and demands
          until it came out perfect.  I heartily endorse him for any
          >freelance
          projects.

          >
          It does indeed look awesome. Great work!

        • Dan
          Evan, While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler. The Pacman isn t in the public domain yet. Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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            Evan,

            While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
            The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
            Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
            organizations.
            I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
            Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
            about these things.
            Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.

            keeping you covered,
            =Dan

            .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
            [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
            [Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot? http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
            [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
            .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.



            Evan wrote:

            > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
            > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
            >
            > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
            > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
            > it always turned out great.
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
            > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
            > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
            >
            > Evan wrote:
            >
            > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
            > >
            > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
            > >creative juice into this.
            > >
            > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
            > opinions
            > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
            > >freelance projects.
            > >
            > >
            > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            > Vintage computer
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
            > Computer security
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
            > Computer training
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
            >
            > Field trip
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >No virus found in this incoming message.
            >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
            >
            >


            --
            No virus found in this outgoing message.
            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
          • B. Degnan
            we can use the Commodore logo (C=) if need be, I spoke with a representative of the company that purchased Commodore to find out what we were and not allowed
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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              we can use the Commodore logo (C=) if need be, I spoke with a
              representative of the company that purchased Commodore to find out what we
              were and not allowed to do as vintage computer hobbyists on printed/display
              materials.
              Bill

              At 07:30 AM 11/10/2005 -0500, you wrote:
              >Evan,
              >
              >While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
              >The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
              >Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
              >organizations.
              >I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
              >Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
              >about these things.
              >Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.
              >
              >keeping you covered,
              >=Dan
              >
              >.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
              >[My Corner of
              >Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
              >[Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got
              >Robot? http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
              >[Pittsburgh Vintage
              >Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
              >.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
              >
              >
              >
              >Evan wrote:
              >
              > > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
              > > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
              > >
              > > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
              > > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
              > > it always turned out great.
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
              > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
              > > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
              > >
              > > Evan wrote:
              > >
              > > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
              > > >
              > > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
              > > >creative juice into this.
              > > >
              > > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
              > > opinions
              > > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
              > > >freelance projects.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SPONSORED LINKS
              > > Vintage computer
              > >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
              >
              > > Computer security
              > >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
              >
              > > Computer training
              > >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
              >
              > >
              > > Field trip
              > >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
              > >
              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
              > >
              > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >No virus found in this incoming message.
              > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >--
              >No virus found in this outgoing message.
              >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Jim Scheef
              Dan, Good catch! This is not something where we can ask forgiveness rather than permission. We can t afford postage to answer a cease and desist letter! I ll
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                Dan,

                Good catch! This is not something where we can ask forgiveness rather than
                permission. We can't afford postage to answer a cease and desist letter!

                I'll see if I can figure out how to contact Namco. In the meantime, we should
                look for an alternative for that letter.

                Other than this, the logo *is* perfect.

                Jim

                --- Dan <ragooman@...> wrote:

                > Evan,
                >
                > While the logo looks great and all, I hate to be the spoiler.
                > The Pacman isn't in the public domain yet.
                > Namco (owner) has been a real pain the Arse about this with other
                > organizations.
                > I'm not sure if you had received permission from them yet.
                > Since your officially a legitimate organization now, they can get nasty
                > about these things.
                > Even thought you're a non-profit, I wouldn't think they let it slide.
                >
                > keeping you covered,
                > =Dan
                >
                >
                .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
                > [My Corner of Cyberspace
                > http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/%5d
                > [Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot?
                > http://www.pghrobotics.org/%5d
                > [Pittsburgh Vintage
                > Comp.Society.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/%5d
                >
                .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
                >
                >
                >
                > Evan wrote:
                >
                > > Yes indeed! Imagine this logo on club flyers, business cards,
                > > t-shirts, the web site(s), Infoage's site, etc.
                > >
                > > Maybe I'll check out that cafepress web site so we can all buy some
                > > logo gear -- I used them before through non-related organizations and
                > > it always turned out great.
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > *From:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Giliberti
                > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:46 PM
                > > *To:* midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > > *Subject:* Re: [midatlanticretro] Check it out! Awesome new logo...
                > >
                > > Evan wrote:
                > >
                > > >It's on our Yahoo homepage right now.
                > > >
                > > >** BIG THANKS ** to member Jeff Salzman for putting lots of time and
                > > >creative juice into this.
                > > >
                > > >Moreover, Jeff was patient and really listened to my art-challenged
                > > opinions
                > > >and demands until it came out perfect. I heartily endorse him for any
                > > >freelance projects.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > It does indeed look awesome. Great work!
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > SPONSORED LINKS
                > > Vintage computer
                > >
                >
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vintage+computer&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=yQK66sIafWZWnP-61n_BTQ>
                >
                > > Computer security
                > >
                >
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=bvgAN5EYj4oAGQSA29LvCw>
                >
                > > Computer training
                > >
                >
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=E3VSZZUZIYQJD2FP1DwFdw>
                >
                > >
                > > Field trip
                > >
                >
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Field+trip&w1=Vintage+computer&w2=Computer+security&w3=Computer+training&w4=Field+trip&c=4&s=84&.sig=6Bps2Ok95uCsZLSwdHWZfg>
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro>" on the web.
                > >
                > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                > >
                > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > >Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005
                >
                >
              • relayer
                ... Thanks for the kudos. Evan and I were chewing up the landline for a while last night tweaking the logo. The infringement possibility did come up about
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                  --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Jim Scheef <jscheef@y...> wrote:
                  > Other than this, the logo *is* perfect.

                  Thanks for the kudos.

                  Evan and I were chewing up the landline for a while last night
                  tweaking the logo. The infringement possibility did come up about
                  Pacman, but it was decided to leave it at the time pending peer
                  response to the logo.

                  I'm working on the recent suggestion of replacing the pacman with the
                  Commodore 'chicken head' logo. The vivid Commodore colors seem to
                  stand out quite a bit, so I will probably subdue the colors to match
                  the tone of the overall image while keeping the shape.

                  I'll probably submit my changes to Evan and have him release the next
                  review candidate to the group.

                  Jeff
                • Frank_OBrien
                  Hi all; For some reason, I m having trouble sending messages - Apologies if this is repeated.... Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                    Hi all;


                    For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                    this is repeated....

                    Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                    significant issues with the logo.

                    Dan is correct - On a practical level, there is *NO* way that any
                    corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                    of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                    Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                    the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                    group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                    was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                    patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                    which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                    registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                    of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                    Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                    terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                    been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                    nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                    get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                    Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                    The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                    logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                    most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                    perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                    they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                    beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                    Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                    Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                    is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                    is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                    The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                    priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                    stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                    color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                    cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                    format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are
                    struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                    able to afford the shirt.

                    Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                    All the best,

                    Frank
                  • Evan
                    Why would we want a currently trendy logo for a vintage organization? Jeff s looks nice and 70s/80s and that s why we all like it. The background image and the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                      Why would we want a currently trendy logo for a vintage organization?  Jeff's looks nice and 70s/80s and that's why we all like it.
                       
                      The background image and the M image (a front panel) are unidentifiable snippets.  No one can say, "hey that's MY random circuit board image in the background".
                       
                      For printing purposes, I'm checking out CafePress.com, which does things methodically and (more imporant) cheaply.
                       
                      Of course, anyone is welcome to submit logo ideas -- no one here is the Chief Logo Officer or anything.


                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                      Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                      Hi all;


                      For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                      this is repeated....

                      Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                      significant issues with the logo.

                      Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                      corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                      of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                      Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                      the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                      group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                      was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                      patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                      which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                      registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                      of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                      Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                      terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                      been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                      nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                      get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                      Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                      The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                      logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                      most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                      perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                      they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                      beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                      Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                      Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                      is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                      is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                      The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                      priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                      stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                      color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                      cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                      format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                      struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                      able to afford the shirt.

                      Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                      All the best,

                      Frank



                    • Bryan Pope
                      ... Oooo!! I vote for the Commodore logo! :-D Cheers, Bryan
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                        > I'm working on the recent suggestion of replacing the pacman with the
                        > Commodore 'chicken head' logo. The vivid Commodore colors seem to
                        > stand out quite a bit, so I will probably subdue the colors to match
                        > the tone of the overall image while keeping the shape.

                        Oooo!! I vote for the Commodore logo! :-D

                        Cheers,

                        Bryan
                      • Evan
                        Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products. (Logos, yes, but not pictures.) After all, newspapers and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                          Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                           
                          After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                          Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                          Hi all;


                          For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                          this is repeated....

                          Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                          significant issues with the logo.

                          Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                          corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                          of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                          Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                          the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                          group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                          was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                          patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                          which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                          registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                          of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                          Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                          terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                          been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                          nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                          get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                          Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                          The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                          logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                          most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                          perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                          they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                          beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                          Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                          Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                          is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                          is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                          The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                          priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                          stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                          color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                          cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                          format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                          struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                          able to afford the shirt.

                          Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                          All the best,

                          Frank



                        • Evan
                          Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer s DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                            Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer's DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists entirely of an ACTUAL BARN (complete with pigs and other farmland creatures) and most of his computers sit atop wooden tables with red-and-white checkered tableclothes of the sort you'd see in a pizzeria.
                             
                            It doesn't take anything too fancy to have a cool display.   :)


                            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                            Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:31 PM
                            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                            Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                             
                            After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                            Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                            Hi all;


                            For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                            this is repeated....

                            Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                            significant issues with the logo.

                            Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                            corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                            of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                            Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                            the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                            group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                            was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                            patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                            which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                            registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                            of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                            Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                            terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                            been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                            nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                            get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                            Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                            The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                            logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                            most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                            perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                            they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                            beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                            Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                            Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                            is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                            is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                            The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                            priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                            stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                            color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                            cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                            format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                            struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                            able to afford the shirt.

                            Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                            All the best,

                            Frank



                          • Evan
                            LOL, addendum to the addendum... the comments about DigiBarn were supposed to be attached to my own message about InfoAge expectations, not the the message
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                              LOL, addendum to the addendum... the comments about DigiBarn were supposed to be attached to my own message about InfoAge expectations, not the the message about permissions and stuff.  My bad.


                              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                              Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:38 PM
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                              Addendum ... I forgot to mention that Bruce Damer's DigiBarn (digibarn.com), which is the most successful private computer museum in the country, consists entirely of an ACTUAL BARN (complete with pigs and other farmland creatures) and most of his computers sit atop wooden tables with red-and-white checkered tableclothes of the sort you'd see in a pizzeria.
                               
                              It doesn't take anything too fancy to have a cool display.   :)


                              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Evan
                              Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:31 PM
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                              Sorry to dwell on this but -- permission is not required to use pictures of public products.  (Logos, yes, but not pictures.)
                               
                              After all, newspapers and computer books like Mike Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" have LOTS of pictures of products, for commercial purposes, and they don't need to seek permission each time.  (Although I'm just not speculating; this is from experience.)


                              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank_OBrien
                              Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:30 PM
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: copyright - trademark

                              Hi all;


                              For some reason, I'm having trouble sending messages - Apologies if
                              this is repeated....

                              Now, I hate to be a *REAL* spoiler on this, but there are additional,
                              significant issues with the logo.

                              Dan is correct - On a practical level,  there is *NO* way that any
                              corporate intellectual property will be given away. Don't even think
                              of it. The fact that MARCH is a non-profit is completely irelevant.

                              Additionally, there are two other infringement issues - one for
                              the "M", and the "H". Unless it was a picture taken by one of the
                              group members it is certainly owned by someone else. And even if it
                              was, there are copyrights on design of the panel and Apple II (design
                              patents also exist, but I doubt if these are covered by patents),
                              which could be applied. Remember, a copyright does *not* have to be
                              registered in order to be in force. Is this picky? Well, just ask any
                              of the folks who are being busted for file-sharing.

                              Also, remember that there isn't much of "formal" relationship (in
                              terms of a legal contract) between MARCH and Infoage. Right now it's
                              been wonderfully casual. What happens though, is that since there is
                              nothing saying that MARCH will indemnify Infoage, then everyone can
                              get sued - Fred and myself included. Don't belive it? Try again.
                              Honestly, it can get pretty ugly.

                              The other issue I have is with the basic layout. The current trend in
                              logos / logotypes are ones that can be represented in one or (at
                              most) two colors, and a single, somewhat abstracted image with
                              perhaps the name of the organization. Case in point: Apple. Long ago
                              they abandoned the "rainbow" logo for a single color - and it works
                              beautifully. Take a look at the giants of industry - IBM, ADM,
                              Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, Exxon, Infoage or even the one I work for -
                              Colgate-Palmolive - they all use a clean, clear, simple logotype that
                              is easily and immediately recognizeable. And, assuming that the logo
                              is unique, all the copyright / trademark issues go away.

                              The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                              priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                              stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                              color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                              cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                              format like a business card anyway....  )? If you folks are
                              struggling to cover the cost of incorporation, you certainly won't be
                              able to afford the shirt.

                              Anyway, just my USD $0.02.


                              All the best,

                              Frank



                            • relayer
                              ... Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo on a shirt. And the logo doesn t need to always be in the alligator position. Even
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Frank_OBrien <no_reply@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                                > priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                                > stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single

                                Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo
                                on a shirt. And the logo doesn't need to always be in the "alligator"
                                position. Even on a polo shirt, the logo scales down fairly well.

                                CafePress was the suggested source for shirts. Their process is
                                similar to the iron-on printer transfers used since the 90's. However,
                                the technology has improved greatly since then, where image detail and
                                color saturation can be preserved. You can also get buttons,
                                mousepads, mugs, hats, etc. Try to stitch a logo on a mug.

                                Almost all of the items at CafePress are less than $30 with the logo.
                                And to pre-emptively answer the durability question, my wife bought a
                                cloth apron from CafePress three years ago with her soapmaking logo on
                                it. It still looks good after three years of wear and washings.

                                > color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                                > cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                                > format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are

                                I disagree. I printed the logo on a 600dpi color laser printer which
                                is inferior to the card printing systems used at Kinko's, Office Max,
                                etc. I was able to scale the image down to 1.5 x 0.6 inches and I
                                could still make out the text and graphics. I expect the business card
                                printing services at the office supply print shops to be at least
                                1200dpi. More than enough resolution to maintain detail. Prices on
                                full color business cards are also much closer to that of single color
                                cards than they were years ago.

                                I'm not trying to aggressively defend the logo as-is because I helped
                                to develop it. I'm simply arguing the point that even though the
                                computer collections we have may be old, the technology to use for
                                promoting the group and logo doesn't need to be. There are newer,
                                cheaper, and better methods.
                              • Sridhar Ayengar
                                ... I ll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon. Just putting the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn t mind donating half the proceeds to
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                  relayer wrote:
                                  > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Frank_OBrien <no_reply@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>The other related issue is a bit more practical. Have anyone ever
                                  >>priced or had to set up a job to have a detailed, multicolored logo
                                  >>stitched on a polo shirt? The Infoage ones, which were just a single
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Somewhat irrelevant. Stitching is not the only way to get a nice logo
                                  > on a shirt. And the logo doesn't need to always be in the "alligator"
                                  > position. Even on a polo shirt, the logo scales down fairly well.
                                  >
                                  > CafePress was the suggested source for shirts. Their process is
                                  > similar to the iron-on printer transfers used since the 90's. However,
                                  > the technology has improved greatly since then, where image detail and
                                  > color saturation can be preserved. You can also get buttons,
                                  > mousepads, mugs, hats, etc. Try to stitch a logo on a mug.
                                  >
                                  > Almost all of the items at CafePress are less than $30 with the logo.
                                  > And to pre-emptively answer the durability question, my wife bought a
                                  > cloth apron from CafePress three years ago with her soapmaking logo on
                                  > it. It still looks good after three years of wear and washings.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>color, were almost $30 each, plus the shirt. Or full color business
                                  >>cards (by the way, the logo is *FAR* to busy to work in a small
                                  >>format like a business card anyway.... )? If you folks are
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I disagree. I printed the logo on a 600dpi color laser printer which
                                  > is inferior to the card printing systems used at Kinko's, Office Max,
                                  > etc. I was able to scale the image down to 1.5 x 0.6 inches and I
                                  > could still make out the text and graphics. I expect the business card
                                  > printing services at the office supply print shops to be at least
                                  > 1200dpi. More than enough resolution to maintain detail. Prices on
                                  > full color business cards are also much closer to that of single color
                                  > cards than they were years ago.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not trying to aggressively defend the logo as-is because I helped
                                  > to develop it. I'm simply arguing the point that even though the
                                  > computer collections we have may be old, the technology to use for
                                  > promoting the group and logo doesn't need to be. There are newer,
                                  > cheaper, and better methods.

                                  I'll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon. Just putting
                                  the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn't mind donating half the
                                  proceeds to the club. Would the club be interested?

                                  Peace... Sridhar
                                • Evan
                                  What kind of stuff do you plan to sell? ... the final touches on the graphics. I wouldn t mind donating half the proceeds to the club. Would the club be
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                    What kind of stuff do you plan to sell?
                                     
                                    >>>> I'll probably be bringing my own CafePress store up soon.  Just putting the final touches on the graphics.  I wouldn't mind donating half the proceeds to the club.  Would the club be interested?

                                    Peace...  Sridhar

                                     
                                     
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