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Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic Edition

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  • Jim Scheef
    Bob, Bill, all, My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
      Bob, Bill, all,

      My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
      in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
      We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
      the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
      (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
      pins and we were off to the races.

      To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
      functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
      signal as the original chip.

      Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

      Jim

      --- Bob Applegate <bob@...> wrote:

      > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to emulate it
      > with an
      > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core processors. There
      > are
      > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some very pricey
      > proprietary ones. Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players) both "give
      > away"
      > their cores. We explored doing this for some projects, but the processors
      > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
      >
      > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
      > manufacturer's
      > web sites to see if you can find something.
      >
      > Bob
      >
      > -------------------------------------------------
      > Bob Applegate
      > Senior Software Engineer
      > Embedded Development Group
      > Ulticom, Inc
      > 856-787-2761
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: billdeg@...
      > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
      > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic
      > Edition
      >
      >
      > I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're asking the
      > FPGA
      > to do, the TED is the processor as well. Or maybe I am missing your
      > point.
      > There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had markings on
      > them
      > other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well, but it's still
      > a TED
      > chip, just an earlier version. I'd have to look on the web for more
      > info.
      > Bill
      >
      > In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      > relayer@... writes:
      >
      > > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace the
      > > increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed with the
      > > same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
      > >
      > > I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with PICs right now
      > > as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have analog I/O
      > > that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see where an FPGA
      > > with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to simulate
      > > TED output.
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS Vintage computer Field trip Computer security
      > Computer training
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      >
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      >
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    • Bob Applegate
      An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device you want on a daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket. That way you can do
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
        An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device you want on a
        daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket.  That way you can do the
        new logic anyway you want, but it's still "pin compatible" with the device it's replacing.
        This was very common, especially in the 70s and 80s.  All kinds of changes to
        commercial products were done that way.
         
        Of course, this assumes you've got the room for the new PC board floating above
        the existing circuitry.  In a tight area, this might not be true.
         
        Bob
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic Edition

        Bob, Bill, all,

        My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
        in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
        We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
        the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
        (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
        pins and we were off to the races.

        To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
        functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
        signal as the original chip.

        Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

        Jim

        --- Bob Applegate <bob@...> wrote:

        > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to emulate it
        > with an
        > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core processors.  There
        > are
        > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some very pricey
        > proprietary ones.  Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players) both "give
        > away"
        > their cores.  We explored doing this for some projects, but the processors
        > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
        >
        > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
        > manufacturer's
        > web sites to see if you can find something.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------
        > Bob Applegate
        > Senior Software Engineer
        > Embedded Development Group
        > Ulticom, Inc
        > 856-787-2761
        >
        >   ----- Original Message -----
        >   From: billdeg@...
        >   To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        >   Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
        >   Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic
        > Edition
        >
        >
        >   I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're asking the
        > FPGA
        >   to do, the TED is the processor as well.  Or maybe I am missing your
        > point. 
        >   There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had markings on
        > them
        >   other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well, but it's still
        > a TED
        >   chip, just an earlier version.  I'd have to look on the web for more
        > info.
        >   Bill
        >
        >   In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        >   relayer@... writes:
        >
        >   > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace the
        >   >  increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed with the
        >   >  same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
        >   > 
        >   >  I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with PICs right now
        >   >  as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have analog I/O
        >   >  that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see where an FPGA
        >   >  with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to simulate
        >   >  TED output.
        >
        >
        >   SPONSORED LINKS Vintage computer  Field trip  Computer security 
        >         Computer training 
        >
        >
        >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >     a..  Visit your group "midatlanticretro" on the web.
        >      
        >     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >      midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >      
        >     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
        >
        >
        >
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        >

      • chrism3667
        If there was any reason not to implement a solution using FPGA s or whatever, you could build a big board ;) and run a cable inside the puter. For some designs
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
          If there was any reason not to implement a solution using FPGA's or
          whatever, you could build a big board ;) and run a cable inside the
          puter. For some designs I suppose a hand trolley would be in order
          YUCK YUCK YUCK

          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Applegate" <bob@a...>
          wrote:
          > An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device
          you want on a
          > daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket. That way
          you can do the
          > new logic anyway you want, but it's still "pin compatible" with the
          device it's replacing.
          > This was very common, especially in the 70s and 80s. All kinds of
          changes to
          > commercial products were done that way.
          >
          > Of course, this assumes you've got the room for the new PC board
          floating above
          > the existing circuitry. In a tight area, this might not be true.
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Jim Scheef
          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:42 PM
          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984
          Olympic Edition
          >
          >
          > Bob, Bill, all,
          >
          > My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to
          replace ROMs
          > in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of
          the EPROMs.
          > We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM
          Drawer' of
          > the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two
          pins too many
          > (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with
          the right
          > pins and we were off to the races.
          >
          > To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the
          same
          > functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have
          the same
          > signal as the original chip.
          >
          > Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?
          >
          > Jim
          >
          > --- Bob Applegate <bob@a...> wrote:
          >
          > > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to
          emulate it
          > > with an
          > > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core
          processors. There
          > > are
          > > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some
          very pricey
          > > proprietary ones. Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players)
          both "give
          > > away"
          > > their cores. We explored doing this for some projects, but the
          processors
          > > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
          > >
          > > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
          > > manufacturer's
          > > web sites to see if you can find something.
          > >
          > > Bob
          > >
          > > -------------------------------------------------
          > > Bob Applegate
          > > Senior Software Engineer
          > > Embedded Development Group
          > > Ulticom, Inc
          > > 856-787-2761
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: billdeg@a...
          > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4
          1984 Olympic
          > > Edition
          > >
          > >
          > > I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're
          asking the
          > > FPGA
          > > to do, the TED is the processor as well. Or maybe I am
          missing your
          > > point.
          > > There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had
          markings on
          > > them
          > > other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well,
          but it's still
          > > a TED
          > > chip, just an earlier version. I'd have to look on the web
          for more
          > > info.
          > > Bill
          > >
          > > In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard
          Time,
          > > relayer@y... writes:
          > >
          > > > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace
          the
          > > > increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed
          with the
          > > > same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
          > > >
          > > > I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with
          PICs right now
          > > > as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have
          analog I/O
          > > > that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see
          where an FPGA
          > > > with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to
          simulate
          > > > TED output.
          > >
          > >
          > > SPONSORED LINKS Vintage computer Field trip Computer
          security
          > > Computer training
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > > a.. Visit your group "midatlanticretro" on the web.
          > >
          > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          Terms of
          > > Service.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------------
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS Vintage computer Field trip Computer security
          > Computer training
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > a.. Visit your group "midatlanticretro" on the web.
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
          of Service.
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------
        • billdeg@aol.com
          All of this may be true, but from a practical perspective and specifically for the Commodore Plus/4 I have never heard of anyone successfully reproducing the
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
            All of this may be true, but from a practical perspective and specifically for the Commodore Plus/4 I have never heard of anyone successfully reproducing the TED chip.  If you have a dead TED, get another Plus/4 or C16 for $15.  It's not really worth the effort.
             
            My original point was that there is a commemorative Plus/4 out there, and that even if it's dead, you can replace the chip pretty easily by sacrificing a regular plus/4.
             
            Bill
             
             
            In a message dated 9/30/2005 1:25:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jscheef@... writes:
            Bob, Bill, all,

            My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
            in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
            We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
            the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
            (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
            pins and we were off to the races.

            To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
            functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
            signal as the original chip.

            Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

            Jim
             
          • Jim Scheef
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
              <strong chuckle>

              --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

              > Vintro.
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.