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RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic Edition

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  • Evan
    Vintro. _____ From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:10
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
      Vintro.


      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:10 PM
      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic Edition

      Evan,

      Interesting...

      Now is a C-1 vintage or retro? :-)

      Jim

      --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

      > >>>> I'm also interested in persuing replacing unobtainium ic's with
      FPGAs.

      > Then you should most definitely buy Jeri
      Ellsworth's C1 Reconfigurable
      > Computer.

      > The
      official site: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/

      > The user forum:
      href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CommodoreOne/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CommodoreOne/

      > A "light" version of the C1 is also the core of the C64 DTV joystick --
      its
      > games are cool but there are easy tricks for actually booting it
      into C64
      > mode -- and even tricks for attaching peripherals.  I have
      one and it's
      > pretty cool.  Co-wrote a review with Bill Loguidice of
      ArmchairArcade.com
      > for my newsletter and his e-zine:
      >
      href="http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/print.php?article.75">http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/print.php?article.75

      >
      href="http://hardware.commodoreworld.com/default.aspx?i=3">http://hardware.commodoreworld.com/default.aspx?i=3
      >
      <http://hardware.commodoreworld.com/default.aspx?i=3&s=products&p=39>
      >
      &s=products&p=39

      >
      >
      >  
      _____ 
      >
      > From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      >
      [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris M
      > Sent:
      Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:24 AM
      > To:
      midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re:
      Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic
      > Edition
      >
      >
      > I'm
      also interested in persuing replacing unobtainium
      > ic's with FPGAs. I
      don't even register as a novice on
      > the subject as of yet, but believe
      me, where there's a
      > will there's a way. Digital outputs can always
      be
      > converted to analog I'm sure. And there's nothing
      > saying you
      can't use some sort of NTSC generator ic in
      > tandem with an FPGA. In that
      case a single chip
      > solution becomes a small plug in board or
      whatever.
      >
      > > I don't
      > > see where an FPGA
      > > with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL
      > > output to
      simulate
      > > TED output.
      >
      > Was that a typo - maybe "I
      don't see how" or "I don't
      > see why...couldn't". Pay better attention
      next time, ay?
      >
      >
      >            
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    • Jim Scheef
      Bob, Bill, all, My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
        Bob, Bill, all,

        My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
        in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
        We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
        the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
        (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
        pins and we were off to the races.

        To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
        functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
        signal as the original chip.

        Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

        Jim

        --- Bob Applegate <bob@...> wrote:

        > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to emulate it
        > with an
        > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core processors. There
        > are
        > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some very pricey
        > proprietary ones. Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players) both "give
        > away"
        > their cores. We explored doing this for some projects, but the processors
        > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
        >
        > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
        > manufacturer's
        > web sites to see if you can find something.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------
        > Bob Applegate
        > Senior Software Engineer
        > Embedded Development Group
        > Ulticom, Inc
        > 856-787-2761
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: billdeg@...
        > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
        > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic
        > Edition
        >
        >
        > I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're asking the
        > FPGA
        > to do, the TED is the processor as well. Or maybe I am missing your
        > point.
        > There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had markings on
        > them
        > other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well, but it's still
        > a TED
        > chip, just an earlier version. I'd have to look on the web for more
        > info.
        > Bill
        >
        > In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        > relayer@... writes:
        >
        > > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace the
        > > increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed with the
        > > same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
        > >
        > > I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with PICs right now
        > > as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have analog I/O
        > > that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see where an FPGA
        > > with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to simulate
        > > TED output.
        >
        >
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        > Computer training
        >
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      • Bob Applegate
        An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device you want on a daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket. That way you can do
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
          An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device you want on a
          daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket.  That way you can do the
          new logic anyway you want, but it's still "pin compatible" with the device it's replacing.
          This was very common, especially in the 70s and 80s.  All kinds of changes to
          commercial products were done that way.
           
          Of course, this assumes you've got the room for the new PC board floating above
          the existing circuitry.  In a tight area, this might not be true.
           
          Bob
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:42 PM
          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic Edition

          Bob, Bill, all,

          My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
          in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
          We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
          the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
          (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
          pins and we were off to the races.

          To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
          functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
          signal as the original chip.

          Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

          Jim

          --- Bob Applegate <bob@...> wrote:

          > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to emulate it
          > with an
          > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core processors.  There
          > are
          > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some very pricey
          > proprietary ones.  Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players) both "give
          > away"
          > their cores.  We explored doing this for some projects, but the processors
          > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
          >
          > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
          > manufacturer's
          > web sites to see if you can find something.
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------
          > Bob Applegate
          > Senior Software Engineer
          > Embedded Development Group
          > Ulticom, Inc
          > 856-787-2761
          >
          >   ----- Original Message -----
          >   From: billdeg@...
          >   To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          >   Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
          >   Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984 Olympic
          > Edition
          >
          >
          >   I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're asking the
          > FPGA
          >   to do, the TED is the processor as well.  Or maybe I am missing your
          > point. 
          >   There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had markings on
          > them
          >   other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well, but it's still
          > a TED
          >   chip, just an earlier version.  I'd have to look on the web for more
          > info.
          >   Bill
          >
          >   In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          >   relayer@... writes:
          >
          >   > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace the
          >   >  increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed with the
          >   >  same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
          >   > 
          >   >  I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with PICs right now
          >   >  as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have analog I/O
          >   >  that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see where an FPGA
          >   >  with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to simulate
          >   >  TED output.
          >
          >
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          >         Computer training 
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        • chrism3667
          If there was any reason not to implement a solution using FPGA s or whatever, you could build a big board ;) and run a cable inside the puter. For some designs
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
            If there was any reason not to implement a solution using FPGA's or
            whatever, you could build a big board ;) and run a cable inside the
            puter. For some designs I suppose a hand trolley would be in order
            YUCK YUCK YUCK

            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Applegate" <bob@a...>
            wrote:
            > An easier approach, assuming there is room, is to build the device
            you want on a
            > daughterboard that simply plugs into the original socket. That way
            you can do the
            > new logic anyway you want, but it's still "pin compatible" with the
            device it's replacing.
            > This was very common, especially in the 70s and 80s. All kinds of
            changes to
            > commercial products were done that way.
            >
            > Of course, this assumes you've got the room for the new PC board
            floating above
            > the existing circuitry. In a tight area, this might not be true.
            >
            > Bob
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Jim Scheef
            > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:42 PM
            > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4 1984
            Olympic Edition
            >
            >
            > Bob, Bill, all,
            >
            > My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to
            replace ROMs
            > in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of
            the EPROMs.
            > We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM
            Drawer' of
            > the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two
            pins too many
            > (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with
            the right
            > pins and we were off to the races.
            >
            > To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the
            same
            > functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have
            the same
            > signal as the original chip.
            >
            > Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?
            >
            > Jim
            >
            > --- Bob Applegate <bob@a...> wrote:
            >
            > > I don't know anything about the TED chip, but if you want to
            emulate it
            > > with an
            > > FPGA, it's very easy to toss in one or more soft-core
            processors. There
            > > are
            > > numerous free IP processor cores out there, as well as some
            very pricey
            > > proprietary ones. Altera and Xilinx (the main FPGA players)
            both "give
            > > away"
            > > their cores. We explored doing this for some projects, but the
            processors
            > > weren't powerful enough to move the quantity of data we needed.
            > >
            > > I'm not aware of any FPGAs with DACs in them, but explore the
            > > manufacturer's
            > > web sites to see if you can find something.
            > >
            > > Bob
            > >
            > > -------------------------------------------------
            > > Bob Applegate
            > > Senior Software Engineer
            > > Embedded Development Group
            > > Ulticom, Inc
            > > 856-787-2761
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: billdeg@a...
            > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:24 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Rare Commodore Plus/4
            1984 Olympic
            > > Edition
            > >
            > >
            > > I believe that the TED chip does more than just what you're
            asking the
            > > FPGA
            > > to do, the TED is the processor as well. Or maybe I am
            missing your
            > > point.
            > > There is no replacement, but I do know that these chips had
            markings on
            > > them
            > > other than 8501R1, I think that there is a 7501R1 as well,
            but it's still
            > > a TED
            > > chip, just an earlier version. I'd have to look on the web
            for more
            > > info.
            > > Bill
            > >
            > > In a message dated 9/29/2005 10:02:21 AM Eastern Standard
            Time,
            > > relayer@y... writes:
            > >
            > > > Does anybody know if is even remotely plausable to replace
            the
            > > > increasingly rare TED chip with a FPGA that was programmed
            with the
            > > > same functionality? Do FPGA's have analog outputs?
            > > >
            > > > I know this is a far reaching concept. I'm working with
            PICs right now
            > > > as I move my way to tackling FPGA architecture. PICs have
            analog I/O
            > > > that has been used to create NTSC output. I don't see
            where an FPGA
            > > > with analog I/O couldn't generate an NTSC or PAL output to
            simulate
            > > > TED output.
            > >
            > >
            > > SPONSORED LINKS Vintage computer Field trip Computer
            security
            > > Computer training
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------
            ------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > > a.. Visit your group "midatlanticretro" on the web.
            > >
            > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            Terms of
            > > Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
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            > >
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          • billdeg@aol.com
            All of this may be true, but from a practical perspective and specifically for the Commodore Plus/4 I have never heard of anyone successfully reproducing the
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
              All of this may be true, but from a practical perspective and specifically for the Commodore Plus/4 I have never heard of anyone successfully reproducing the TED chip.  If you have a dead TED, get another Plus/4 or C16 for $15.  It's not really worth the effort.
               
              My original point was that there is a commemorative Plus/4 out there, and that even if it's dead, you can replace the chip pretty easily by sacrificing a regular plus/4.
               
              Bill
               
               
              In a message dated 9/30/2005 1:25:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jscheef@... writes:
              Bob, Bill, all,

              My extreemly limited experience in this vein involves EPROMs to replace ROMs
              in the HP Portable Plus. The problem was the pin configuration of the EPROMs.
              We needed 128K (1M bit) EPROMs to add custom software to the 'ROM Drawer' of
              the PPlus. There were plenty of such chips but they all had two pins too many
              (one extra on each side). Finally someone found a 128K EPROM with the right
              pins and we were off to the races.

              To replace the proprietary chips in anything you need both the same
              functionality and the same pin configuration. Each pin must have the same
              signal as the original chip.

              Isn't what these chips did now called digital signal processing?

              Jim
               
            • Jim Scheef
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 30, 2005
                <strong chuckle>

                --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

                > Vintro.
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.