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What is Vintage?

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  • Christian Liendo
    So true.. I really it s original definition was for wine and seems to be adapted for use in other things, such as cars and clothing. But if you look up the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 23, 2009
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      So true..

      I really it's original definition was for wine and seems to be adapted for use in other things, such as cars and clothing. But if you look up the Oxford English Dictionary of the term it is really for wine:

      http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/vintage?view=uk

      vintage
        • noun 1 the year or place in which wine was produced. 2 a wine of high quality made from the crop of a single identified district in a good year. 3 the harvesting of grapes for winemaking. 4 the grapes or wine of a particular season. 5 the time that something was produced.

        • adjective 1 referring to vintage wine. 2 referring to something from the past of high quality.

      Now I assume we use the following definition:
      referring to something from the past of high quality.

      Now, what is quality differs from person to person. It is subjective.

      I once stated I wanted to bring in some Silicon Graphics machines to VCF and I said my reason was that they were the pinnacle of 3D graphics at the time and thus would be "Interesting", I was told that they were not "Vintage" and couldn't be brought. The reason was that they came out in 1991.

      Yet when I look up Vintage Computer I see SGIs mentioned:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vintage_computer

      So people do believe they could be considered "Vintage"




      --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Bill Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:




      My issue is that everyone seems to have their own definition of vintage,

      therefore to me it's a weak term without context.



      Bill
    • Brian Cirulnick
      ... Which is interesting because when Evan just defined vintage, he used internet applicances (which came out in 1997-2003), and the Newton (1993) as
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
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        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was told that they were not "Vintage" and couldn't be brought. The reason was that they came out in 1991.
        >
        -------------

        Which is interesting because when Evan just defined vintage, he used "internet applicances" (which came out in 1997-2003), and the Newton (1993) as examples of interesting devices that transcend whether or not they are "old enough".

        Seriously though, I have no problem if people want to covet just systems from the 80's or earlier. I collect what interests me, whether it was made in the 60's or just last year.

        I'm a Commodore fanboy, so, I've run in that direction. Despite the apparent collectability I've yet to own anything built by Atari. And, I find the fun in now obtaining, for almost nothing, the high-end systems that cost many tens of thousands when they were new. Sun and SGI are in that realm.

        Business systems interest me because I still do real work on these old machines. I find it more fun to type out my various writings on an older machine (the way author William Gibson prefers an antique typewriter). There was even a workbench add-on for the Amiga that allowed it to make typewriter sounds when you used the keyboard.

        I recently obtained an Alphasmart, and that is killer for doing quick writing on the go. (However, just won an ebay auction for a Tandy WP-3 that might be even more fun to use).

        Anyhow, my point is: Get what you want, and worry about what others think later. If it doesn't fit someone else's preconcieved notion of what "vintage" is, screw 'em.
      • Mr Ian Primus
        ... Yes - just as the definition of vintage varies from person to person. For example. Nobody on this list will argue that the the Sinclair ZX81 is a vintage
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
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          --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo@...> wrote:
          > Now I assume we use the following definition:
          > referring to something from the past of high quality.
          >
          > Now, what is quality differs from person to person. It is
          > subjective.

          Yes - just as the definition of "vintage" varies from person to person. For example. Nobody on this list will argue that the the Sinclair ZX81 is a vintage computer. But nobody who has ever seen or used a ZX81 would ever use the word "quality" to describe it. Not even close.

          So, therefore the ZX81 would NOT fall under the definition of "something from the past of high quality". And yet it's vintage.

          <grin>

          -Ian
        • Brian Cirulnick
          ... I think I would use the word torturous to describe it. (Type a character, wait for screen refresh, type another character, wait for screen refresh).
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
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            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus@...> wrote:
            >
            > Nobody on this list will argue that the the Sinclair ZX81 is a vintage computer. But nobody who has ever seen or used a ZX81 would ever use the word "quality" to describe it. Not even close.
            >
            ---------------

            I think I would use the word "torturous" to describe it.

            (Type a character, wait for screen refresh, type another character, wait for screen refresh).

            Although to be fair to the ZX80 and ZX81, I built them from the kit, as they were the only things I could afford at the time (paperboy job didn't pay very well), so when I saw the VIC-20, I understood what a revolution it was.

            My friend Jeff Ford had a TRS-80 early on, but Jeff was at least 100 IQ points ahead of me, so I had only an inkling of what he was doing.
          • B Degnan
            ... http://www.wordreference.com/definition/vintage http://www.wordreference.com/definition/historical eventually vintage will lose it s meaning, historical is
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
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              Brian Cirulnick wrote:
              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Nobody on this list will argue that the the Sinclair ZX81 is a vintage computer. But nobody who has ever seen or used a ZX81 would ever use the word "quality" to describe it. Not even close.
              >>
              >>
              > ---------------
              >
              > I think I would use the word "torturous" to describe it.
              >
              > (Type a character, wait for screen refresh, type another character, wait for screen refresh).
              >
              > Although to be fair to the ZX80 and ZX81, I built them from the kit, as they were the only things I could afford at the time (paperboy job didn't pay very well), so when I saw the VIC-20, I understood what a revolution it was.
              >
              > My friend Jeff Ford had a TRS-80 early on, but Jeff was at least 100 IQ points ahead of me, so I had only an inkling of what he was doing.
              >
              >
              >

              http://www.wordreference.com/definition/vintage
              http://www.wordreference.com/definition/historical

              eventually vintage will lose it's meaning, historical is a little better
              because these things aren't antiques necessarily. Historical can be new
              or old. I added two new domains today, historicalcomputer(s).com.

              http://www.cybercrud.com
              http://www.vintagecomputer.net
              http://www.historicalcomputer.com
              http://www.historicalcompuers.com


              * * *

              I am going to write some SID music tonight as part of my VCF thingy.
              hint hint




              Bill
            • Christian Liendo
              That s cool. The only thing with Historical is that it implies that the computer(s) have a significant historical reference.. Such as but not limited to SAGE
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                That's cool.

                The only thing with "Historical" is that it implies that the computer(s) have a significant historical reference.. Such as but not limited to

                SAGE
                Keneback
                ALTAIR
                Apple I
                Apple II
                MOS KIM-1

                You would have to find historical significance for many of them, case in point
                The IMSAI 8080

                The reason it is popular is because of War Games, but it doesn't have the historical significance that the Altair might.



                --- On Wed, 6/24/09, B Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:



                http://www.wordrefe rence.com/ definition/ vintage
                http://www.wordrefe rence.com/ definition/ historical

                eventually vintage will lose it's meaning, historical is a little better
                because these things aren't antiques necessarily. Historical can be new
                or old. I added two new domains today, historicalcomputer( s).com.

                http://www.cybercru d.com
                http://www.vintagec omputer.net
                http://www.historic alcomputer. com
                http://www.historic alcompuers. com

                * * *

                I am going to write some SID music tonight as part of my VCF thingy.
                hint hint

                Bill


              • Jim Scheef
                Hello all, I m not sure where the current end of this thread is... I suspect that the term you have all forgotten is collectible . Isn t that what matters in
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                  Hello all,

                  I'm not sure where the current end of this thread is...

                  I suspect that the term you have all forgotten is "collectible". Isn't
                  that what matters in this hobby?

                  What makes something collectible is the interest of the collector - not
                  some edict from you guys. Is a Bazooka-brand baseball card more vintage
                  than some other brand of bubble gum? In the end it only matters to the
                  collector(s) involved at that moment in time. I started collecting early
                  IBM PCs back in the 80's because I thought it would be interesting and
                  they were free. No one talked about vintage or historic - they were just
                  obsolete and no one wanted to use them anymore.

                  Jim

                  Mr Ian Primus wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo@...
                  > <mailto:christian_liendo%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                  > > Now I assume we use the following definition:
                  > > referring to something from the past of high quality.
                  > >
                  > > Now, what is quality differs from person to person. It is
                  > > subjective.
                  >
                  > Yes - just as the definition of "vintage" varies from person to
                  > person. For example. Nobody on this list will argue that the the
                  > Sinclair ZX81 is a vintage computer. But nobody who has ever seen or
                  > used a ZX81 would ever use the word "quality" to describe it. Not even
                  > close.
                  >
                  > So, therefore the ZX81 would NOT fall under the definition of
                  > "something from the past of high quality". And yet it's vintage.
                  >
                  > <grin>
                  >
                  > -Ian
                  >
                  > _
                • jack99rubin
                  ... Usually I just lurk quietly out here in the Midwest and let youse guys whack each other over the head on this stuff, but I can t let the presumption that
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                    >
                    > You would have to find historical significance for many of them, case in point
                    > The IMSAI 8080
                    >
                    > The reason it is popular is because of War Games, but it doesn't have the historical significance that the Altair might.
                    >

                    Usually I just lurk quietly out here in the Midwest and let "youse guys" whack each other over the head on this stuff, but I can't let the presumption that the IMSAI's only claim to fame is a movie appearance nearly 10 years after it's introduction! Even ignoring the corporate incubator that gave rise to Computerland, Businessland and Wordstar among other things, the fact that it was the first commercial system to use CP/M and a scad of other stuff - well documented by Todd Fischer at www.imsai.net - one major difference between the IMSAI and the Altair was that the IMSAI actually worked! It had the power and reliability to form a reliable foundation for business, scientific and industrial applications. It was a major step in moving from "hobby" to "serious" microcomputing. Damn you young whippershappers!

                    Jack
                  • Christian Liendo
                    I too read Once upon a time in ComputerLand , which by the way was a great book. I don t know if it can be said that it was first commercial system to use
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                      I too read "Once upon a time in ComputerLand", which by the way was a great book.

                      I don't know if it can be said that it was "first commercial system to use CP/M" I think that title still goes to MITS.. The IMSAI was a clone. Was it a better clone, that could be argued. It was better marketed and it looked better.. What about Vector? They were also a sucessful clone company?

                      I have a Northstar which was the 1st to have dual intergrated 5.25 drives, but I don't think thats all that historical.

                      Now Computerland was another company from William H Millard.. He pretty much butchered IMS assoc for Computerland. But does that still make the IMSAI 8080 historical?

                      As for Wordstar, Wordstar was a Micropro product and not IMS Assoc.  If I remember the book correctly the reason why MicroPro was started was because Robb Barnaby the programmer couldn't get company support for his project and Seymour Rubenstein saw the potental and created the company.

                      So yes, IMS Assoc has some historical significance, but does the IMSAI 8080?

                      --- On Thu, 6/25/09, jack99rubin <jack.rubin@...> wrote:

                      From: jack99rubin <jack.rubin@...>
                      Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: What is Vintage?
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 4:47 PM

                      >
                      > You would have to find historical significance for many of them, case in point
                      > The IMSAI 8080
                      >
                      > The reason it is popular is because of War Games, but it doesn't have the historical significance that the Altair might.
                      >

                      Usually I just lurk quietly out here in the Midwest and let "youse guys" whack each other over the head on this stuff, but I can't let the presumption that the IMSAI's only claim to fame is a movie appearance nearly 10 years after it's introduction! Even ignoring the corporate incubator that gave rise to Computerland, Businessland and Wordstar among other things, the fact that it was the first commercial system to use CP/M and a scad of other stuff - well documented by Todd Fischer at www.imsai.net - one major difference between the IMSAI and the Altair was that the IMSAI actually worked! It had the power and reliability to form a reliable foundation for business, scientific and industrial applications. It was a major step in moving from "hobby" to "serious" microcomputing. Damn you young whippershappers!

                      Jack


                    • mouse_059
                      ... I do believe (with Ian P s help and physical hardware) I ll be able to assemble an interactive exhibit for this year that will complement the music
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, B Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:

                        > I am going to write some SID music tonight as part of my VCF thingy.
                        > hint hint

                        I do believe (with Ian P's help and physical hardware) I'll be able to assemble an interactive exhibit for this year that will complement the music exhibits nicely. This is a fun side theme we have going!

                        -m
                      • B Degnan
                        Chris. I am speechless. Bill
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 25, 2009
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                          Chris. I am speechless.

                          Bill

                          Christian Liendo wrote:
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                          >
                          > I too read "Once upon a time in ComputerLand", which by the way was a
                          > great book.
                          >
                          > I don't know if it can be said that it was "first commercial system to
                          > use CP/M" I think that title still goes to MITS.. The IMSAI was a
                          > clone. Was it a better clone, that could be argued. It was better
                          > marketed and it looked better.. What about Vector? They were also a
                          > sucessful clone company?
                          >
                          > I have a Northstar which was the 1st to have dual intergrated 5.25
                          > drives, but I don't think thats all that historical.
                          >
                          > Now Computerland was another company from William H Millard.. He
                          > pretty much butchered IMS assoc for Computerland. But does that still
                          > make the IMSAI 8080 historical?
                          >
                          > As for Wordstar, Wordstar was a Micropro product and not IMS Assoc.
                          > If I remember the book correctly the reason why MicroPro was started
                          > was because Robb Barnaby the programmer couldn't get company support
                          > for his project and Seymour Rubenstein saw the potental and created
                          > the company.
                          >
                          > So yes, IMS Assoc has some historical significance, but does the IMSAI
                          > 8080?
                          >
                          > --- On *Thu, 6/25/09, jack99rubin /<jack.rubin@...>/* wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: jack99rubin <jack.rubin@...>
                          > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: What is Vintage?
                          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 4:47 PM
                          >
                          > >
                          > > You would have to find historical significance for many of them,
                          > case in point
                          > > The IMSAI 8080
                          > >
                          > > The reason it is popular is because of War Games, but it doesn't
                          > have the historical significance that the Altair might.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Usually I just lurk quietly out here in the Midwest and let "youse
                          > guys" whack each other over the head on this stuff, but I can't
                          > let the presumption that the IMSAI's only claim to fame is a movie
                          > appearance nearly 10 years after it's introduction! Even ignoring
                          > the corporate incubator that gave rise to Computerland,
                          > Businessland and Wordstar among other things, the fact that it was
                          > the first commercial system to use CP/M and a scad of other stuff
                          > - well documented by Todd Fischer at www.imsai.net - one major
                          > difference between the IMSAI and the Altair was that the IMSAI
                          > actually worked! It had the power and reliability to form a
                          > reliable foundation for business, scientific and industrial
                          > applications. It was a major step in moving from "hobby" to
                          > "serious" microcomputing. Damn you young whippershappers!
                          >
                          > Jack
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • christian_liendo@yahoo.com
                          What part made you speechless? The part that I believe that the reason why the IMSAI 8080 is popular is War Games or that it s not historical? Or me just
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 26, 2009
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                            What part made you speechless?

                            The part that I believe that the reason why the IMSAI 8080 is popular is War Games or that it's not historical?

                            Or me just calling it a clone?

                            I mean please let me know.

                            --- On Thu, 6/25/09, B Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:

                            From: B Degnan <billdeg@...>
                            Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: What is Vintage?
                            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 10:47 PM

















                            Chris. I am speechless.



                            Bill



                            Christian Liendo wrote:
                          • Evan Koblentz
                            ... Not to speak for Bill, but I m guessing his reply will be, Both. The IMSAI was extremely popular when it was new and all through the late 1970s.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 26, 2009
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                              >
                              > What part made you speechless?
                              >
                              > The part that I believe that the reason why the IMSAI 8080 is popular is War Games or that it's not historical?
                              >
                              Not to speak for Bill, but I'm guessing his reply will be, "Both."

                              The IMSAI was extremely popular when it was new and all through the late
                              1970s. WarGames made it popular in mainstream culture (to people who
                              didn't know computers other than Apple / Commodore / Tandy), but it's
                              not like the IMSAI was uncommon vs. its direct competition of Altair,
                              Cromemco, SWTPC, etc.

                              As for "not historic" I think that completely misses the mark.

                              But as I said, I'll let Bill front that battle. :)
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