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RE: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80 Model II keyboard

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  • Kelly D. Leavitt
    I have a keyboard repair kit for a 16 around somewhere. If I can find it I ll take some pictures. Kelly ... I ll second that. The Model II keyboard has to be
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2009
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      I have a keyboard repair kit for a 16 around somewhere. If I can find it I'll take some pictures.

      Kelly




      On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:

      > Capacitive Foam. YUCK.

      I'll second that. The Model II keyboard has to be the worst
      implementation I've ever seen. Not only does the foam pad disintegrate,
      but it takes with it the metallic coating on the underside of the plastic
      disc that presses against the circuit board. On my keyboard, a total
      of FIVE keys were still working.

      Based on the articles I've read about rebuilding capacitive keyboards,
      I think I can resurrect it. Unfortunately, I don't have the materials on
      hand. I'll see what I can dig up.

      On the positive side, the 8" CP/M 2.2 boot diskette I created using IMD
      worked perfectly. :-)

      Mike Loewen mloewen@...
      Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/

      _
    • Mike Loewen
      ... Going by hints in this article about rebuilding Sol 20 keyboards: http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/ ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 9, 2009
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        On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:

        > Based on the articles I've read about rebuilding capacitive keyboards,
        > I think I can resurrect it. Unfortunately, I don't have the materials on
        > hand. I'll see what I can dig up.

        Going by hints in this article about rebuilding Sol 20 keyboards:

        http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/

        ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II keyboard. I used a
        7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly, a $3.00 Space Blanket
        from WalMart, a strip of 3/16" Track Foam from the local hobby store and a
        jar of Elmer's Rubber Cement. I used the punch to make 76 foam circles
        (use a drill press or a mill), then glued them to the conductive side of a
        sheet cut from the space blanket. I used the punch again to punch out the
        combination of foam and mylar circle, then glued the old plastic discs
        (after cleaning) to the back of the foam.

        The foam is a little stiffer than the original, but is perfectly
        usable and is not supposed to disintegrate. I think I can come up with a
        quicker procedure, by gluing a strip of mylar to a strip of foam, and a
        sheet of some sort of plastic document protector to the other side, and
        using my hand-operated punch-and-die to punch out all three at a time.
        Maybe we'll try it this weekend at VCW.


        Mike Loewen mloewen@...
        Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
      • Dan Roganti
        Mike, Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this wknd when I get there. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Mike
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 10, 2009
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          Mike,

          Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this wknd when I get there.

          =Dan
          [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/   ]


          Mike Loewen wrote:
          On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:
          
            
             Based on the articles I've read about rebuilding capacitive keyboards,
          I think I can resurrect it.  Unfortunately, I don't have the materials on
          hand.  I'll see what I can dig up.
              
              Going by hints in this article about rebuilding Sol 20 keyboards:
          
          http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/
          
              ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II keyboard.  I used a 
          7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly, a $3.00 Space Blanket 
          from WalMart, a strip of 3/16" Track Foam from the local hobby store and a 
          jar of Elmer's Rubber Cement.  I used the punch to make 76 foam circles 
          (use a drill press or a mill), then glued them to the conductive side of a 
          sheet cut from the space blanket.  I used the punch again to punch out the 
          combination of foam and mylar circle, then glued the old plastic discs 
          (after cleaning) to the back of the foam.
          
              The foam is a little stiffer than the original, but is perfectly 
          usable and is not supposed to disintegrate.  I think I can come up with a 
          quicker procedure, by gluing a strip of mylar to a strip of foam, and a 
          sheet of some sort of plastic document protector to the other side, and 
          using my hand-operated punch-and-die to punch out all three at a time. 
          Maybe we'll try it this weekend at VCW.
          
          
          Mike Loewen				mloewen@...
          Old Technology	http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
          
          
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        • Mike Loewen
          ... Oops...the vacuum ate it. :-) Seriously, what was left couldn t be removed in one piece: it crumbled at the least touch. Mike Loewen
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 10, 2009
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            On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote:

            > Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this
            > wknd when I get there.

            Oops...the vacuum ate it. :-) Seriously, what was left couldn't be
            removed in one piece: it crumbled at the least touch.


            Mike Loewen mloewen@...
            Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
          • Dan Roganti
            Mike Loewen wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote: Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this wknd when I get there.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 10, 2009
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              Mike Loewen wrote:
              On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote:
              
                
              Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this
              wknd when I get there.
                  
                  Oops...the vacuum ate it.  :-)  Seriously, what was left couldn't be 
              removed in one piece: it crumbled at the least touch.
              
              
                

              oh ok, I'm waiting til I get there to take mine apart - maybe there's some left in m ine that's till intact and we can compare the readings - I'll bring my Cap meter too.

              =Dan
              [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/   ]

            • Mike Loewen
              ... I still think you re on the wrong track with this foam thing. According to my reading, the foam is not the dielectric, but the conformal coating over the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 10, 2009
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                On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote:

                > Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this
                > wknd when I get there.
                >
                >
                >> Oops...the vacuum ate it. :-) Seriously, what was left couldn't be
                >> removed in one piece: it crumbled at the least touch.
                >
                >
                > oh ok, I'm waiting til I get there to take mine apart - maybe there's
                > some left in m ine that's till intact and we can compare the readings -
                > I'll bring my Cap meter too.

                I still think you're on the wrong track with this foam thing.
                According to my reading, the foam is not the dielectric, but the conformal
                coating over the semicircular pads on the PCB. All you have to do is get
                the mylar pad close enough to the PCB and you have a capacitance change.
              • Dan Roganti
                Mike Loewen wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote: Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this wknd when I get there.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 10, 2009
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                  Mike Loewen wrote:
                  On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dan Roganti wrote:
                  
                    
                   Save the old foam pieces from the keyboard , I like to compare them this
                  wknd when I get there.
                  
                  
                      
                   Oops...the vacuum ate it.  :-)  Seriously, what was left couldn't be 
                  removed in one piece: it crumbled at the least touch.
                        
                  oh ok, I'm waiting til I get there to take mine apart - maybe there's
                  some left in m ine that's till intact and we can compare the readings -
                  I'll bring my Cap meter too.
                      
                      I still think you're on the wrong track with this foam thing. 
                  According to my reading, the foam is not the dielectric, but the conformal 
                  coating over the semicircular pads on the PCB.  All you have to do is get 
                  the mylar pad close enough to the PCB and you have a capacitance change.
                  
                    

                  even air can act as the dielectric of a capacitor - remember the tuning caps in a old radio.

                  =Dan
                  [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/   ]

                • Kelly D. Leavitt
                  ... From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike Loewen Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:01 PM To:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 10, 2009
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                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike Loewen
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:01 PM
                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80 Model II keyboard

                    On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:

                    > Based on the articles I've read about rebuilding capacitive keyboards,
                    > I think I can resurrect it. Unfortunately, I don't have the materials on
                    > hand. I'll see what I can dig up.

                    Going by hints in this article about rebuilding Sol 20 keyboards:

                    http://www.solivant .com/sol20kbd/

                    ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II keyboard. I used a
                    7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly, a $3.00 Space Blanket
                    from WalMart, a strip of 3/16" Track Foam from the local hobby store and a
                    jar of Elmer's Rubber Cement. I used the punch to make 76 foam circles
                    (use a drill press or a mill), then glued them to the conductive side of a
                    sheet cut from the space blanket. I used the punch again to punch out the
                    combination of foam and mylar circle, then glued the old plastic discs
                    (after cleaning) to the back of the foam.

                    The foam is a little stiffer than the original, but is perfectly
                    usable and is not supposed to disintegrate. I think I can come up with a
                    quicker procedure, by gluing a strip of mylar to a strip of foam, and a
                    sheet of some sort of plastic document protector to the other side, and
                    using my hand-operated punch-and-die to punch out all three at a time.
                    Maybe we'll try it this weekend at VCW.

                    .

                  • Kelly D. Leavitt
                    Dang, I hate compures some days. ... Mike: Any interest in making several hundred of these :-). Seriously, out of the 8 model 16/12 keyboards I have, exactly 1
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 10, 2009
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                      Dang, I hate compures some days.

                      On Tuesday, June 09, 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:

                      >> Based on the articles I've read about rebuilding capacitive keyboards,
                      >> I think I can resurrect it. Unfortunately, I don't have the materials on
                      >> hand. I'll see what I can dig up.
                      >
                      > Going by hints in this article about rebuilding Sol 20 keyboards:
                      >
                      > http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/
                      >
                      > ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II keyboard. I used a
                      > 7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly, a $3.00 Space Blanket
                      > from WalMart, a strip of 3/16" Track Foam from the local hobby store and a
                      > jar of Elmer's Rubber Cement. I used the punch to make 76 foam circles
                      > (use a drill press or a mill), then glued them to the conductive side of a
                      > sheet cut from the space blanket. I used the punch again to punch out the
                      > combination of foam and mylar circle, then glued the old plastic discs
                      > (after cleaning) to the back of the foam.

                      Mike:
                      Any interest in making several hundred of these :-).

                      Seriously, out of the 8 model 16/12 keyboards I have, exactly 1 works. I'm hoping to get one more working for VCF, then sitting down and making a whole bunch of these. I don't have a drill press, but I can make them manually I guess.

                      Kelly
                    • Mike Loewen
                      ... I think I have a better way of making them, by gluing the mylar to one side of the foam strip and a sheet of thin plastic (report cover) to the other side,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                        On Mon, 10 Aug 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:

                        > On Tuesday, June 09, 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:
                        >
                        >> ...I was 100% successful in rebuilding my Model II keyboard. I used a
                        >> 7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly, a $3.00 Space Blanket
                        >> from WalMart, a strip of 3/16" Track Foam from the local hobby store and a
                        >> jar of Elmer's Rubber Cement. I used the punch to make 76 foam circles
                        >> (use a drill press or a mill), then glued them to the conductive side of a
                        >> sheet cut from the space blanket. I used the punch again to punch out the
                        >> combination of foam and mylar circle, then glued the old plastic discs
                        >> (after cleaning) to the back of the foam.
                        >
                        > Mike:
                        > Any interest in making several hundred of these :-).
                        >
                        > Seriously, out of the 8 model 16/12 keyboards I have, exactly 1 works.
                        > I'm hoping to get one more working for VCF, then sitting down and making
                        > a whole bunch of these. I don't have a drill press, but I can make them
                        > manually I guess.

                        I think I have a better way of making them, by gluing the mylar to one
                        side of the foam strip and a sheet of thin plastic (report cover) to the
                        other side, then using a 7/16" hole punch to punch all three layers. The
                        first batch I tried came out too wrinkly (the mylar layer) for my taste
                        but a little experimentation should take care of that.

                        That being said, I don't think I'll have time to get a batch made
                        before VCF. If I get my exhibit project done, I'll see what I can do.


                        Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                        Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                      • Kelly D. Leavitt
                        ... Which punch set did you use, the $4 one or the $18 one? Based on the name, I m guessing it was the $4 one. In case you can t recall, here is a link to the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                          >> I used a
                          >> 7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly,
                          Which punch set did you use, the $4 one or the $18 one? Based on the name, I'm guessing it was the $4 one.

                          In case you can't recall, here is a link to the page listing the two punch sets:
                          http://grizzly.com/products/Gasket-Punch-Set/H3329
                        • Mike Loewen
                          ... It was the G9845 set ($3.95). The hand punch I m using for the new procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953). I normally use it for punching holes in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                            On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:

                            >>> I used a
                            >>> 7/16" hollow punch purchased in a set from Grizzly,
                            > Which punch set did you use, the $4 one or the $18 one? Based on the name, I'm guessing it was the $4 one.
                            >
                            > In case you can't recall, here is a link to the page listing the two punch sets:
                            > http://grizzly.com/products/Gasket-Punch-Set/H3329

                            It was the G9845 set ($3.95). The hand punch I'm using for the new
                            procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953). I normally use it for
                            punching holes in aluminum panels.


                            Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                            Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                          • Kelly D. Leavitt
                            ... That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that s the thickness of metal it can handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard pads. Is the opening
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                              > The hand punch I'm using for the new
                              > procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953).
                              That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that's the thickness of metal it can handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard pads. Is the opening actually high enough for the 1/4" foam sandwich?

                              Thanks,
                              Kelly
                            • Mike Loewen
                              ... Easily. I ve already tried it. The only problem with that punch is that it has a small point in the middle of the punch section, so you have to lay the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:

                                >> The hand punch I'm using for the new
                                >> procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953).
                                > That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that's the thickness of metal it can
                                > handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard pads. Is the
                                > opening actually high enough for the 1/4" foam sandwich?

                                Easily. I've already tried it. The only problem with that punch is
                                that it has a small point in the middle of the punch section, so you have
                                to lay the sandwich face down so that resulting small hole is in the
                                plastic piece, not the mylar face.


                                Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                              • Kelly D. Leavitt
                                Want to bring the punch to VCF? I ll bring a mylar/foam/plastic sandwich. Kelly
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                  Want to bring the punch to VCF? I'll bring a mylar/foam/plastic sandwich.

                                  Kelly
                                • Mike Loewen
                                  ... Can do. Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                    On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:

                                    > Want to bring the punch to VCF? I'll bring a mylar/foam/plastic sandwich.

                                    Can do.


                                    Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                    Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                                  • Mike Loewen
                                    ... One thing - you mentioned 1/4 in a previous post: I used 3/16 foam. I think 1/4 would be too thick, and might lead to spurious keystrokes. Mike Loewen
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                      On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Mike Loewen wrote:

                                      > On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Want to bring the punch to VCF? I'll bring a mylar/foam/plastic sandwich.
                                      >
                                      > Can do.

                                      One thing - you mentioned 1/4" in a previous post: I used 3/16" foam.
                                      I think 1/4" would be too thick, and might lead to spurious keystrokes.


                                      Mike Loewen mloewen@...
                                      Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
                                    • evan@snarc.net
                                      ... Now we know how you lost so much weight last year! :)
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                        >>> I'll bring a mylar/foam/plastic sandwich.

                                        Now we know how you lost so much weight last year! :)
                                      • Win Heagy
                                        Since this thread, has anyone found a source of pre-made capacitive foam keyboard inserts? I have a Sol 20 that I m rebuilding and the keyboard is shot. I
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 1, 2011
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                                          Since this thread, has anyone found a source of pre-made capacitive foam keyboard inserts? I have a Sol 20 that I'm rebuilding and the keyboard is shot. I saw the page showing how to make them, just wondering if anyone knows of a source of pre-made pads?

                                          Thanks,

                                          Win

                                          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly D. Leavitt" <kelly@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > The hand punch I'm using for the new
                                          > > procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953).
                                          > That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that's the thickness of metal it can handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard pads. Is the opening actually high enough for the 1/4" foam sandwich?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          > Kelly
                                          >
                                        • B Degnan
                                          I have seen kits on Ebay from time to time, none recently. $60 each or something like that. Bill
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 3, 2011
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                                            I have seen kits on Ebay from time to time, none recently. $60 each
                                            or something like that.
                                            Bill

                                            At 09:01 PM 8/1/2011, you wrote:
                                            >Since this thread, has anyone found a source of pre-made capacitive
                                            >foam keyboard inserts? I have a Sol 20 that I'm rebuilding and the
                                            >keyboard is shot. I saw the page showing how to make them, just
                                            >wondering if anyone knows of a source of pre-made pads?
                                            >
                                            >Thanks,
                                            >
                                            >Win
                                            >
                                            >--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly D. Leavitt" <kelly@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > The hand punch I'm using for the new
                                            > > > procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953).
                                            > > That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that's the thickness of metal
                                            > it can handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard
                                            > pads. Is the opening actually high enough for the 1/4" foam sandwich?
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks,
                                            > > Kelly
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • jack99rubin
                                            Check with Erik Klein - Vintage Computer Forum - he s been selling kits of the inserts occasionally. Jack
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 5, 2011
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                                              Check with Erik Klein - Vintage Computer Forum - he's been selling kits of the inserts occasionally.

                                              Jack

                                              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, B Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I have seen kits on Ebay from time to time, none recently. $60 each
                                              > or something like that.
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              > At 09:01 PM 8/1/2011, you wrote:
                                              > >Since this thread, has anyone found a source of pre-made capacitive
                                              > >foam keyboard inserts? I have a Sol 20 that I'm rebuilding and the
                                              > >keyboard is shot. I saw the page showing how to make them, just
                                              > >wondering if anyone knows of a source of pre-made pads?
                                              > >
                                              > >Thanks,
                                              > >
                                              > >Win
                                              > >
                                              > >--- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly D. Leavitt" <kelly@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > The hand punch I'm using for the new
                                              > > > > procedure is this one (Ebay #360177115953).
                                              > > > That says it handles 14 AWG. I know that's the thickness of metal
                                              > > it can handle. That is no where near the thickness of the keyboard
                                              > > pads. Is the opening actually high enough for the 1/4" foam sandwich?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Thanks,
                                              > > > Kelly
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >------------------------------------
                                              > >
                                              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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