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Re: makeshift IBM monitor

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  • Brian Cirulnick
    ... Sure, we can arrange that. Let me just test that it works (I have an old Epson PC clone that uses CGA), and then I ll leave it in my kitchen so it s
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Not sure where you live, but I'm in Belleville NJ, if you're willing to take a drive to my place one evening, you can pick it up.
      > >
      > >
      > Brian, why don't I get the monitor from you, then I'll bring it to the
      > museum. Joe lives close the museum and often comes there on weekends.
      >
      -------------------

      Sure, we can arrange that. Let me just test that it works (I have an old Epson PC clone that uses CGA), and then I'll leave it in my kitchen so it's reminding me to call you to come get it...

      Now if only I hadn't thrown out all those keyboards 7 years ago. (You guys would cry hearing about all I had to throw out when I closed my business in 2002)...

      Ah well.

      Anyhow; Evan, I'm available most evenings after 8pm. I think you have my cell phone #, if not, email my home e-mail and I'll send you that and my address..
    • Evan Koblentz
      ... Brian, can we meet at the mall (or some other central location) like we did when you retrieved Chris bag?
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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        >
        > Evan, I'm available most evenings after 8pm. I think you have my cell phone #, if not, email my home e-mail and I'll send you that and my address..
        >
        Brian, can we meet at the mall (or some other central location) like we
        did when you retrieved Chris' bag?
      • Bill Degnan
        Remember when you work with the manual not to confuse the directions and settings for the 16K-64K board and the 64K-640K board. They re both in the manual. I
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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          Remember when you work with the manual not to confuse the directions and
          settings for the 16K-64K board and the 64K-640K board. They're both in the
          manual. I have more info on my web site, vintagecomputer.net/ibm. Also
          search the blog for various notes and pictures about this model. I have
          restored three of these models in the past 12 months.

          Usually what kills them is the monitor card, usually if you replace the
          card the system comes back to life. The other likely thing to go wrong is
          RAM. I can teach you some tricks to locating the bad RAM and replacing.

          Bill

          -------- Original Message --------
          > From: "Joe Giliberti" <Starbase89@...>
          > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:03 PM
          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] makeshift IBM monitor
          >
          > I downloaded a PDF copy of the technical manual last night. I'm guessing
          the
          > onboard RAM are the 27 or so small chips near the front visible corner
          of
          > the board? I'll get all relevant information you asked for, including
          switch
          > positions, and get back to you.
          > Joe
          >
          > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Bill Degnan <billdeg@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Joe,
          > > Do you have a copy of the technical reference manual? If not I can
          copy
          > > and scan the important pages. In the mean time can you take a picture
          of
          > > the motherboard switches, and RAM? If not easy to do, can you just tell
          me
          > > whether there are open RAM slots and what the switches are set to? I
          am
          > > guessing it's a 64K + 512K with the QuadRAM card = 640K. With this you
          > > could do almost anything. Lastly, what are the markings on the ROM
          chips
          > > in U33? That will tell me if it has an upgraded ROM or the original. I
          am
          > > going to guess that it's been upgraded.
          > >
          > > I don't off hand know the voltages. The 8087 coprocessor is next to
          the
          > > processor near the power connector.
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > > Bill
          > >
          > >
          > > -------- Original Message --------
          > > > From: "Joe Giliberti" <Starbase89@...
          <Starbase89%40gmail.com>>
          > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:45 PM
          > > > To:
          midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com<midatlanticretro%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] makeshift IBM monitor
          > > >
          > > > All I've done thus far is apply power to the power supply (which is
          > > > original). What are the voltages supposed to be going into the
          mainboard?
          > >
          > > I
          > > > want to check with a multimeter before hooking it to the
          motherboard.
          > > It
          > > > appears to have the co-processor installed. I do plan on doing a
          > > > methodological, slow restore on it.
          > > >
          > > > Aside from resocketing chips and removing dust, what is the
          procedure
          > > for
          > > > checking the motherboard?
          > > >
          > > > Joe
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Bill Degnan
          <billdeg@...<billdeg%40degnanco.com>>
          > >
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > May I add that this is quite a lucky find, you may never get such
          a
          > > rare
          > > > > system in the trash ever again, you take this as an opportunity to
          > > perform
          > > > > a serious restoration/save. Learn about what you have and make the
          most
          > >
          > > of
          > > > > the experience. Don't try to hook this up to the Internet, try to
          > > return
          > > > > the computer to original condition. Don't power this up until
          you're
          > > > > confident you have tested the power, removed all cards and
          unhooked
          > > power
          > > > > to the motherboard, etc.
          > > > > Bill
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > -------- Original Message --------
          > > > > > From: "Mr Ian Primus" <ian_primus@...
          <ian_primus%40yahoo.com>
          > > <ian_primus%40yahoo.com>>
          > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:08 AM
          > > > > > To:
          > > midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com <midatlanticretro%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > <midatlanticretro%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] makeshift IBM monitor
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, Joe Giliberti
          > > <Starbase89@...
          <Starbase89%40gmail.com><Starbase89%40gmail.com>>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > >there is a bit of rust on the cover, but not significant. I'm
          using
          > > a
          > > > > >random AT keyboard, as I do not have a model M
          > > > > >
          > > > > > An AT keyboard will not work on this machine. You need an XT
          > > keyboard.
          > > > > The plugs are the same, but the protocol is different. Some early
          AT
          > > > > keyboards also have a switch (sometimes hidden behind a little
          panel in
          > >
          > > th
          > > > > bottom) to switch between AT and XT modes.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The original CGA card has RCA plugs on it, and if I remember
          > > correctly,
          > > > > it should be composite video. But, I do believe that the composite
          > > video
          > > > > output does not support all video modes that the CGA card can do.
          Your
          > > best
          > > > >
          > > > > bet is to find a real monitor...
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You can't connect the CGA card to a VGA monitor, but you CAN use
          > > (with
          > > > > limited color palette), an analog RGB monitor, such as the ones
          used on
          > >
          > > the
          > > > >
          > > > > Commodore Amiga. CGA is a digital RGB, and uses an intensity line.
          The
          > > > > analog monitors will display the digital signal, but can't use the
          > > > > intensity line - so all the "light" colors come out as the same
          color
          > > as
          > > > > their "bright" counterparts. It's usable though.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -Ian
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ------------------------------------
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • Evan Koblentz
          ... Sorry to bog down the list in details. I meant to reply to Brian off-list.
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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            Evan, I'm available most evenings after 8pm. I think you have my cell phone #, if not, email my home e-mail and I'll send you that and my address..   
                
            Brian, can we meet at the mall (or some other central location) like we 
            did when you retrieved Chris' bag?
              
            Sorry to bog down the list in details.  I meant to reply to Brian off-list.
          • Joe Giliberti
            Here s as much info as I can pull off the mainboard Machine Serial: 0177038 On the planar: SW1 on on on on off on on off SW2 on off on on off off off off U28
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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              Here's as much info as I can pull off the mainboard

              Machine Serial:
              0177038

              On the planar:

              SW1
              on on on on off on on off

              SW2
              on off on on off off off off

              U28
              Empty Socket

              U29
              MK35748 J
              5700019
              ZA
              (copyright) IBM 1981
              D Malaysia
              8135 Q

              U30
              5700027
              (copyright) IBM 1981
              XE
              (motorola symbol) 8201BNM

              U31
              (motorola symbol) 5700035
              (copyright) IBM 1981
              XE8135ANM

              U32
              MK36728 P
              5700043
              ZA
              (copyright) IBM 1981
              D Malaysia
              8142 D

              U33
              MK36C35N-4
              1501476
              ZA
              (copyright) IBM CORP
              1981, 1983
              D Malaysia

              U34
              (not socketed)
              NEC
              PIY229-147
              D8253C-5

              Has a total of 36 of what I believe to be memory chips. Nine are soldered direct to the board, the remaining 27 are socketed
              The chips are marked:

              (AMD symbol) AM9016DPC
              8144WPP

              All 36 are the same chips


            • B Degnan
              U33 MK36C35N-4 1501476 ZA (copyright) IBM CORP 1981, 1983 D Malaysia Tells you it s a 2nd REV16K-64K (upgraded) ROM set. The first rev did not have a routine
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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                U33
                MK36C35N-4
                1501476
                ZA
                (copyright) IBM CORP
                1981, 1983
                D Malaysia

                Tells you it's a 2nd REV16K-64K (upgraded) ROM set.  The first rev did not have a routine for using hard drives, and some other things so most people upgraded the ROMS so they could use newer parts and memory.



                Here's as much info as I can pull off the mainboard

                Machine Serial:
                0177038
                this year I worked on the following other 16-64K boards, so yours is right in there among them, definitely an original, probably from late 1981 early 1983.:

                0159618
                0239462
                0192592 (MARCH's with original ROMS)

                On the planar:

                SW1
                on on on on off on on off

                SW2
                on off on on off off off off


                you have a full complement of RAM (64K) on the motherboard. 

                I assume you have SW1 reversed.  Up means "on" if facing from the front looking down. 
                If you have a co-processor, two drives, CGA monitor then SW1 should be: [off on -- -- on off off on] (where pertains to RAM).

                If SW1's 5 is up and 6 down  - that means CGA display.  Monochrome 5 and 6 are down.  Never mix and match without first changing the switches before powering on.  Otherwise you will fry the board and short the system.

                Math co-processor 2 = up/on.

                In a nutshell it looks like you have a standard configuration, no changes needed assuming you use a CGA monitor.  Don't try to use monochrome with these settings.  Someone did that to MARCH's 5150, and we had to replace the display card as a result. 

                Hope this helps.

                Bill

              • Joe Giliberti
                Thanks for the info, Bill Some more questions Does it matter whether I take video from the CGA port or the composite? So I could, if I wished, install an MFM
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 1, 2009
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                  Thanks for the info, Bill
                  Some more questions

                  Does it matter whether I take video from the CGA port or the composite?
                  So I could, if I wished, install an MFM hard drive/controller, or perhaps a hardcard. Correct?
                  Also, due to the different ROM, will it support a full 640k, or the 544k from the first gen?

                  Joe

                  On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:45 PM, B Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:


                  U33
                  MK36C35N-4
                  1501476
                  ZA
                  (copyright) IBM CORP
                  1981, 1983
                  D Malaysia

                  Tells you it's a 2nd REV16K-64K (upgraded) ROM set.  The first rev did not have a routine for using hard drives, and some other things so most people upgraded the ROMS so they could use newer parts and memory.




                  Here's as much info as I can pull off the mainboard

                  Machine Serial:
                  0177038
                  this year I worked on the following other 16-64K boards, so yours is right in there among them, definitely an original, probably from late 1981 early 1983.:

                  0159618
                  0239462
                  0192592 (MARCH's with original ROMS)


                  On the planar:

                  SW1
                  on on on on off on on off

                  SW2
                  on off on on off off off off


                  you have a full complement of RAM (64K) on the motherboard. 

                  I assume you have SW1 reversed.  Up means "on" if facing from the front looking down. 
                  If you have a co-processor, two drives, CGA monitor then SW1 should be: [off on -- -- on off off on] (where pertains to RAM).

                  If SW1's 5 is up and 6 down  - that means CGA display.  Monochrome 5 and 6 are down.  Never mix and match without first changing the switches before powering on.  Otherwise you will fry the board and short the system.

                  Math co-processor 2 = up/on.

                  In a nutshell it looks like you have a standard configuration, no changes needed assuming you use a CGA monitor.  Don't try to use monochrome with these settings.  Someone did that to MARCH's 5150, and we had to replace the display card as a result. 

                  Hope this helps.

                  Bill


                • B Degnan
                  ... only use a real cga monitor in the CGA port. do not use the composite. ... yes but this system did not come with a hard drive and would not be in the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 2, 2009
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                    Joe Giliberti wrote:
                    Thanks for the info, Bill
                    Some more questions

                    Does it matter whether I take video from the CGA port or the composite?
                    only use a real cga monitor in the CGA port.  do not use the composite.

                    So I could, if I wished, install an MFM hard drive/controller, or perhaps a hardcard. Correct?
                    yes but this system did not come with a hard drive and would not be in the spirit of what it was originally.

                    Also, due to the different ROM, will it support a full 640k, or the 544k from the first gen?

                    full 640.  Should be at 640K now.
                    Joe


                    P.S. - Evan - the disk you gave me for the IBM at MARCH has some bare spots, the drive needs to be cleaned or replaced.    Do we have any replacement Tandon 100-2a drives at MARCH?

                    Bill
                  • Evan Koblentz
                    ... I don t know.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 2, 2009
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                      > Evan - the disk you gave me for the IBM at MARCH has some bare spots,
                      > the drive needs to be cleaned or replaced. Do we have any
                      > replacement Tandon 100-2a drives at MARCH?
                      I don't know.
                    • Mr Ian Primus
                      ... The drive probably just needs a good cleaning. I ve never seen a Tandon in an IBM fail so badly as to scrape up disks. The heads are probably just really
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 2, 2009
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                        --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:

                        > > Evan - the disk you gave me for
                        > the IBM at MARCH has some bare spots,
                        > > the drive needs to be cleaned or replaced. 
                        >   Do we have any
                        > > replacement Tandon 100-2a drives at MARCH?
                        > I don't know.

                        The drive probably just needs a good cleaning. I've never seen a Tandon in an IBM fail so badly as to scrape up disks. The heads are probably just really dirty. Also, the disk itself could have been compromised - some brands are more apt to start shedding oxide with age.

                        -Ian
                      • Bill Degnan
                        ... in an IBM fail so badly as to scrape up disks. The heads are probably just really dirty. Also, the disk itself could have been compromised - some brands
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 2, 2009
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                          -------- Original Message --------
                          > From: "Mr Ian Primus" <ian_primus@...>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:56 PM
                          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: makeshift IBM monitor
                          >
                          > --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Evan Koblentz <evan@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > > Evan - the disk you gave me for
                          > > the IBM at MARCH has some bare spots,
                          > > > the drive needs to be cleaned or replaced.
                          > > Do we have any
                          > > > replacement Tandon 100-2a drives at MARCH?
                          > > I don't know.
                          >
                          > The drive probably just needs a good cleaning. I've never seen a Tandon
                          in an IBM fail so badly as to scrape up disks. The heads are probably just
                          really dirty. Also, the disk itself could have been compromised - some
                          brands are more apt to start shedding oxide with age.
                          >

                          True on all counts. I was just curious about whether we had another drive
                          if next time I come up and I can't fix the problem, I can bring a spare
                          drive if I have one. Hopefully you're right and a good cleaning will
                          suffice, or a new disk. The disk in question is a copy of DOS 2.11 with a
                          few scratched tracks, but not completely bare. I never had issues with
                          these drives when I was working with the system myself, but I was mostly
                          focused on the hardware and did not do much disk exercising other than
                          format a disk in both drives.

                          bd
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