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Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!

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  • scheefj@netscape.net
    Another really interesting vintage machine on eBay. I particularly like how the first laptop computer is a Model 2. The price is a little high, but take a
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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      Another really interesting vintage machine on eBay. I particularly like
      how the "first laptop computer" is a Model 2. The price is a little
      high, but take a look: Item number: 290298346960



      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290298346960&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us



      Jim
    • Brian Cirulnick
      ... like ... ViewItem&item=290298346960&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink ... Yes, the price is a little high... I think the Zenith Laptop I was
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, scheefj@... wrote:
        >
        > Another really interesting vintage machine on eBay. I particularly
        like
        > how the "first laptop computer" is a Model 2. The price is a little
        > high, but take a look: Item number: 290298346960
        >
        >
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        ViewItem&item=290298346960&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink
        :middle:us
        -------------------------

        Yes, the price is a little high... I think the Zenith Laptop I was
        trying to GIVE AWAY at the December Party is older than that thing.
        And the Zenith's battery works...

        This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.

        It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
        gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
        have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
        pound as scrap for $499 a pop.

        Maybe I'm jaded because I remember eBay when you could get shit cheap
        there -- that was the whole point! Now you're being asked to pay more
        than what the damn thing was worth new, plus extravagant shipping,
        and guess what, no warranty, no software, and the power supply is 8
        hours from popping the caps (and the keyboard likely doesn't work).

        Not to mention scars and screen burn, and for $499! Wow, what a deal.

        I throw out stuff that "power sellers" on eBay price high. That
        causes every other seller rummaging through their attic to price high
        as well, which drives up the cost of every item. To the point that
        crap never sells. Look at all those $399 CP/M machines and see how
        many bids? Zero. And yet, they stay up there.

        I have the same problem with guys who would rather let their AMC
        Javelin rust away in their backyard than sell it for less than $5000,
        so they ignore my offer to buy at a reasonable price, and the thing
        eventually becomes unpurchase-able because the car turns into a
        planter.
      • Bill Degnan
        ... There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that most power sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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          <snip>
          >
          > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
          >
          > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
          > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
          > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
          > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
          >
          <snip>

          There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that most power
          sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay instead.
          In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher retail
          prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't know
          about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
          incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
          irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
          outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers do with
          this opportunity is another thing!

          I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible today
          to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
          migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of
          programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This has had
          an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years moved
          to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.

          Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless of what
          they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter as much
          if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to
          return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
          instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
          underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into their
          web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
          driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but believe me
          someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50 competitors
          to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products. Nothing
          against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that part of
          this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services market
          of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.

          I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
          Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00. I find
          that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay spirit,
          and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are
          stupid too from an economic standpoint.

          Bill
        • Christopher Blackmon
          My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of buyers, multiple
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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            My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of buyers, multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
            45 days to return items -  regardless of your individual TOS, buyer can take as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding with buyers, no more solicitation of paper
            payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central board on ebay... lots of stories on there.

            Christopher.



            From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@...>
            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
            Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!

            <snip>

            >
            > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
            >
            > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
            > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
            > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
            > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
            >
            <snip>

            There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that most power
            sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay instead.
            In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher retail
            prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't know
            about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
            incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
            irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
            outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers do with
            this opportunity is another thing!

            I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible today
            to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
            migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of
            programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This has had
            an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years moved
            to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.

            Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless of what
            they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter as much
            if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to
            return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
            instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
            underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into their
            web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
            driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but believe me
            someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50 competitors
            to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products. Nothing
            against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that part of
            this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services market
            of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.

            I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
            Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00. I find
            that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay spirit,
            and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are
            stupid too from an economic standpoint.

            Bill


          • fairlanefastback
            As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers almost universally abused the feedback system. Once a buyer pays quickly, his or her
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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              As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
              almost universally abused the feedback system. Once a buyer pays
              quickly, his or her obligation is over, and he/she deserves good
              feedback. Instead, almost all sellers withheld feedback, so that they
              would have more retaliatory means left to their disposal should the
              buyer give neutral or negative feedback (whether deserved or not).
              Somehow a culture developed among sellers that buyers owed them more
              than the money quickly, but that they also owed them good feedback for
              the sale as a seller before they should get good feedback as a buyer.
              Ebay saw this trend for years, and finally fixed it the only way they
              could.

              And if you want your own individual terms or sale, thats what
              craigslist is for no? And what about eBid? Are they as restrictive?

              Not saying ebay is perfect by any means. But as a buyer I feel better
              about the site now. And in the end if others feel the same way, thats
              probably better for sellers' bottom lines.

              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Blackmon
              <ckblackm@...> wrote:
              >
              > My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer
              to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of
              buyers, multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
              > 45 days to return items - regardless of your individual TOS, buyer
              can take as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding
              with buyers, no more solicitation of paper
              > payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central
              board on ebay... lots of stories on there.
              >
              > Christopher.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@...>
              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
              > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay -
              Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!
              >
              >
              > <snip>
              > >
              > > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
              > >
              > > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
              > > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
              > > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
              > > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
              > >
              > <snip>
              >
              > There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that
              most power
              > sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay
              instead.
              > In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher
              retail
              > prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't
              know
              > about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
              > incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
              > irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
              > outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers
              do with
              > this opportunity is another thing!
              >
              > I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible
              today
              > to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
              > migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of
              > programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This
              has had
              > an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years
              moved
              > to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.
              >
              > Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless
              of what
              > they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter
              as much
              > if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to
              > return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
              > instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
              > underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into
              their
              > web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
              > driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but
              believe me
              > someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50
              competitors
              > to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products.
              Nothing
              > against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that
              part of
              > this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services
              market
              > of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.
              >
              > I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
              > Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00.
              I find
              > that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay
              spirit,
              > and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are
              > stupid too from an economic standpoint.
              >
              > Bill
              >
            • Christopher Blackmon
              I always viewed it as feedback should be done only after the transaction was completed successfully by both parties. If the seller gives feedback immediately,
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I always viewed it as feedback should be done only after the transaction was completed successfully by both parties.
                If the seller gives feedback immediately, what's he to do if the buyer returns a brick instead of the laptop he bought?  Ebay/Paypal
                will always side with the fraudulent buyer... and the seller can't even warn other sellers that the buyer was a fraud.

                The feedback's not that big of a deal (except that a seller can't post negative information, even if it's true)... but
                the fact that the system is so biased against the seller.. that it's so easy to defraud the sellers.  I'd be afraid to sell
                anything of value on ebay because of that.  There is no seller protection there at all.  If you're a big powerseller,
                you can absorb the loss.. but the little guy/ part time seller has basically been shown the door.

                Christopher.



                From: fairlanefastback <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:49:57 PM
                Subject: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage Data Gen
                 

                As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                almost universally abused the feedback system. Once a buyer pays
                quickly, his or her obligation is over, and he/she deserves good
                feedback. Instead, almost all sellers withheld feedback, so that they
                would have more retaliatory means left to their disposal should the
                buyer give neutral or negative feedback (whether deserved or not).
                Somehow a culture developed among sellers that buyers owed them more
                than the money quickly, but that they also owed them good feedback for
                the sale as a seller before they should get good feedback as a buyer.
                Ebay saw this trend for years, and finally fixed it the only way they
                could.

                And if you want your own individual terms or sale, thats what
                craigslist is for no? And what about eBid? Are they as restrictive?

                Not saying ebay is perfect by any means. But as a buyer I feel better
                about the site now. And in the end if others feel the same way, thats
                probably better for sellers' bottom lines.

                --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, Christopher Blackmon
                <ckblackm@.. .> wrote:

                >
                > My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer
                to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of
                buyers, multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
                > 45 days to return items - regardless of your individual TOS, buyer
                can take as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding
                with buyers, no more solicitation of paper
                > payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central
                board on ebay... lots of stories on there.
                >
                > Christopher.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@... >
                > To: midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
                > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay -
                Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!
                >
                >
                > <snip>
                > >
                > > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
                > >
                > > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
                > > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
                > > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
                > > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
                > >
                > <snip>
                >
                > There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that
                most power
                > sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay
                instead.
                > In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher
                retail
                > prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't
                know
                > about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
                > incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
                > irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
                > outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers
                do with
                > this opportunity is another thing!
                >
                > I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible
                today
                > to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
                > migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of
                > programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This
                has had
                > an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years
                moved
                > to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.
                >
                > Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless
                of what
                > they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter
                as much
                > if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to
                > return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
                > instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
                > underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into
                their
                > web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
                > driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but
                believe me
                > someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50
                competitors
                > to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products.
                Nothing
                > against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that
                part of
                > this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services
                market
                > of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.
                >
                > I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
                > Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00.
                I find
                > that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay
                spirit,
                > and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are
                > stupid too from an economic standpoint.
                >
                > Bill
                >


              • Bill Degnan
                I have never had a problem with anyone buy or sell. My feedback is 410+ 100%. Upon receipt of payment I give feedback. As far as I am concerned that s the
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I have never had a problem with anyone buy or sell. My feedback is 410+
                  100%. Upon receipt of payment I give feedback. As far as I am concerned
                  that's the end of the transaction. I insure packages over a certain
                  amount. Maybe I am just lucky, but a nice email or phone call usually
                  works through the stickiest of problems.
                  Bill

                  -------- Original Message --------
                  > From: "Christopher Blackmon" <ckblackm@...>
                  > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:01 PM
                  > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on
                  eBay - Vintage Data Gen
                  >
                  > I always viewed it as feedback should be done only after the transaction
                  was completed successfully by both parties.
                  > If the seller gives feedback immediately, what's he to do if the buyer
                  returns a brick instead of the laptop he bought? Ebay/Paypal
                  > will always side with the fraudulent buyer... and the seller can't even
                  warn other sellers that the buyer was a fraud.
                  >
                  > The feedback's not that big of a deal (except that a seller can't post
                  negative information, even if it's true)... but
                  > the fact that the system is so biased against the seller.. that it's so
                  easy to defraud the sellers. I'd be afraid to sell
                  > anything of value on ebay because of that. There is no seller protection
                  there at all. If you're a big powerseller,
                  > you can absorb the loss.. but the little guy/ part time seller has
                  basically been shown the door.
                  >
                  > Christopher.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: fairlanefastback <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:49:57 PM
                  > Subject: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay -
                  Vintage Data Gen
                  >
                  >
                  > As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                  > almost universally abused the feedback system. Once a buyer pays
                  > quickly, his or her obligation is over, and he/she deserves good
                  > feedback. Instead, almost all sellers withheld feedback, so that they
                  > would have more retaliatory means left to their disposal should the
                  > buyer give neutral or negative feedback (whether deserved or not).
                  > Somehow a culture developed among sellers that buyers owed them more
                  > than the money quickly, but that they also owed them good feedback for
                  > the sale as a seller before they should get good feedback as a buyer.
                  > Ebay saw this trend for years, and finally fixed it the only way they
                  > could.
                  >
                  > And if you want your own individual terms or sale, thats what
                  > craigslist is for no? And what about eBid? Are they as restrictive?
                  >
                  > Not saying ebay is perfect by any means. But as a buyer I feel better
                  > about the site now. And in the end if others feel the same way, thats
                  > probably better for sellers' bottom lines.
                  >
                  > --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, Christopher Blackmon
                  > <ckblackm@.. .> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer
                  > to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of
                  > buyers, multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
                  > > 45 days to return items - regardless of your individual TOS, buyer
                  > can take as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding
                  > with buyers, no more solicitation of paper
                  > > payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central
                  > board on ebay... lots of stories on there.
                  > >
                  > > Christopher.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@... >
                  > > To: midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
                  > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay -
                  > Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > <snip>
                  > > >
                  > > > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
                  > > >
                  > > > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
                  > > > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who

                  > > > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the

                  > > > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
                  > > >
                  > > <snip>
                  > >
                  > > There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that
                  > most power
                  > > sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay
                  > instead.
                  > > In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher
                  > retail
                  > > prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't
                  > know
                  > > about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
                  > > incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
                  > > irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
                  > > outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers
                  > do with
                  > > this opportunity is another thing!
                  > >
                  > > I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible
                  > today
                  > > to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
                  > > migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of

                  > > programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This
                  > has had
                  > > an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years
                  > moved
                  > > to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.
                  > >
                  > > Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless
                  > of what
                  > > they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter
                  > as much
                  > > if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to

                  > > return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
                  > > instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
                  > > underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into
                  > their
                  > > web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
                  > > driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but
                  > believe me
                  > > someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50
                  > competitors
                  > > to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products.
                  > Nothing
                  > > against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that
                  > part of
                  > > this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services
                  > market
                  > > of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.
                  > >
                  > > I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
                  > > Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00.
                  > I find
                  > > that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay
                  > spirit,
                  > > and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are

                  > > stupid too from an economic standpoint.
                  > >
                  > > Bill
                  > >
                • Brian Cirulnick
                  ... it s so easy to defraud the sellers. I d be afraid to sell ... protection there at all. If you re a big powerseller, ... basically been shown the door.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Blackmon
                    <ckblackm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > the fact that the system is so biased against the seller.. that
                    it's so easy to defraud the sellers. I'd be afraid to sell
                    > anything of value on ebay because of that. There is no seller
                    protection there at all. If you're a big powerseller,
                    > you can absorb the loss.. but the little guy/ part time seller has
                    basically been shown the door.
                    > --------------------

                    I've been on both sides, as a buyer and as a seller, and in both
                    cases, I've have the other side rip me off and get away with it.
                    Plus, as a small-time seller, now you're really at the mercy of the
                    buyer.

                    For example, I sold a phone on ebay and had to accept a return. Why?
                    Because the buyer bid on multiple phones, won mine and someone
                    else's, and then decided he liked the other one better.

                    Whatever happened to "Your bid is your contract?". I mean, when I
                    bought stuff on ebay that didn't exactly live up to my expectations,
                    I either lived with it, or turned around and resold it on ebay
                    (sometimes at a profit, I might add).

                    Nowadays, and I hate to say it, but ebay is awash with newbies, it's
                    like AOL all over again, and somehow they changed the rules to
                    benefit themselves, and people who have used ebay for a LONG time are
                    now forced to use Craigslist (which is not a bad alternative -- I
                    sold my '77 Bus on Craigslist after two failed ebay attempts).

                    Between the fees and forced paypal usage, along with the rip-offs and
                    scams, frankly, it's just not worth it to use ebay anymore, as as
                    seller or a buyer.

                    And "vintage" computers are still easy enough for me to come by -- I
                    just do not see myself paying $$$$$ for something that I know, sooner
                    or later, will come me for the price of cleaning out a basement or
                    garage, or making a lucky find at a garage sale.

                    There are still "barn find" cars, and there are still good finds out
                    there that do not require forking over hundreds, particularly for a
                    computer that is of an unknown condition because all you have is a
                    photo, and some seller going "Wow, this is old so it must be THE
                    FIRST!!!!"

                    If he really wants to prove it's "The First" ask him if the serial
                    number is #0000001.
                  • fairlanefastback
                    Once a buyer pays, his/her part of the transaction is complete. Do you wait 45 days as a seller before posting feedback to make sure they did not seek a
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                      Once a buyer pays, his/her part of the transaction is complete. Do
                      you wait 45 days as a seller before posting feedback to make sure they
                      did not seek a return on an item? And even if they did seek a return
                      what bearing does this have on them doing the right thing by paying
                      right away? To my understanding thats what update comments to
                      feedback were for. If something changed later you could note it for
                      all to see back in the day. What happened in reality was instead that
                      buyers, even if they were not totally satisfied, they often gave good
                      feedback, figuring the retaliation they would get was not worth it.
                      Indeed, it even started an interesting trend offolks checking the
                      positive box, but the text comment being less than positive, to at
                      least hint at issue(s) they had. Neutral was left to almost never
                      being used, as anything less than a positive from the buyer would buy
                      you a negative back almost all the time. Part of running a business
                      dealing with the public is dealing with the occasional jerk. But
                      instead this became the way almost all buyers got treated by almost
                      all sellers. You get your good buyer feedback only when you sing me
                      praises as a seller for the world to read was the norm. And to me,
                      that seems extreme.

                      There was always plenty of posts from buyers about how paypal would
                      not honor their claims in regard to merchandise not being as claimed
                      by the seller. I've never heard of them always siding with the buyer
                      as you say. Here is just one example:

                      http://tinyurl.com/b67f7e

                      Anyway, just another perspective to consider.

                      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Blackmon
                      <ckblackm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I always viewed it as feedback should be done only after the
                      transaction was completed successfully by both parties.
                      > If the seller gives feedback immediately, what's he to do if the
                      buyer returns a brick instead of the laptop he bought? Ebay/Paypal
                      > will always side with the fraudulent buyer... and the seller can't
                      even warn other sellers that the buyer was a fraud.
                      >
                      > The feedback's not that big of a deal (except that a seller can't
                      post negative information, even if it's true)... but
                      > the fact that the system is so biased against the seller.. that it's
                      so easy to defraud the sellers. I'd be afraid to sell
                      > anything of value on ebay because of that. There is no seller
                      protection there at all. If you're a big powerseller,
                      > you can absorb the loss.. but the little guy/ part time seller has
                      basically been shown the door.
                      >
                      > Christopher.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: fairlanefastback <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:49:57 PM
                      > Subject: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on
                      eBay - Vintage Data Gen
                      >
                      >
                      > As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                      > almost universally abused the feedback system. Once a buyer pays
                      > quickly, his or her obligation is over, and he/she deserves good
                      > feedback. Instead, almost all sellers withheld feedback, so that they
                      > would have more retaliatory means left to their disposal should the
                      > buyer give neutral or negative feedback (whether deserved or not).
                      > Somehow a culture developed among sellers that buyers owed them more
                      > than the money quickly, but that they also owed them good feedback for
                      > the sale as a seller before they should get good feedback as a buyer.
                      > Ebay saw this trend for years, and finally fixed it the only way they
                      > could.
                      >
                      > And if you want your own individual terms or sale, thats what
                      > craigslist is for no? And what about eBid? Are they as restrictive?
                      >
                      > Not saying ebay is perfect by any means. But as a buyer I feel better
                      > about the site now. And in the end if others feel the same way, thats
                      > probably better for sellers' bottom lines.
                      >
                      > --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, Christopher Blackmon
                      > <ckblackm@ .> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer
                      > to jerk around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of
                      > buyers, multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
                      > > 45 days to return items - regardless of your individual TOS, buyer
                      > can take as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding
                      > with buyers, no more solicitation of paper
                      > > payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central
                      > board on ebay... lots of stories on there.
                      > >
                      > > Christopher.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > > From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@ >
                      > > To: midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
                      > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay -
                      > Vintage Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <snip>
                      > > >
                      > > > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
                      > > > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers"
                      who
                      > > > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by
                      the
                      > > > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
                      > > >
                      > > <snip>
                      > >
                      > > There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that
                      > most power
                      > > sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay
                      > instead.
                      > > In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher
                      > retail
                      > > prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't
                      > know
                      > > about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
                      > > incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
                      > > irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
                      > > outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers
                      > do with
                      > > this opportunity is another thing!
                      > >
                      > > I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible
                      > today
                      > > to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
                      > > migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the
                      overhead of
                      > > programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This
                      > has had
                      > > an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years
                      > moved
                      > > to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.
                      > >
                      > > Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless
                      > of what
                      > > they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter
                      > as much
                      > > if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want
                      Ebay to
                      > > return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
                      > > instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
                      > > underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into
                      > their
                      > > web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
                      > > driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but
                      > believe me
                      > > someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50
                      > competitors
                      > > to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products.
                      > Nothing
                      > > against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that
                      > part of
                      > > this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services
                      > market
                      > > of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.
                      > >
                      > > I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
                      > > Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00.
                      > I find
                      > > that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay
                      > spirit,
                      > > and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them
                      anyway, are
                      > > stupid too from an economic standpoint.
                      > >
                      > > Bill
                      > >
                      >
                    • William Donzelli
                      ... Thanks for painting all of us with such a wide brush. Buyers also abused (and keep abusing) the feedback system. Feedback extortion is the term. It is in
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                        > As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                        > almost universally abused the feedback system.

                        Thanks for painting all of us with such a wide brush.

                        Buyers also abused (and keep abusing) the feedback system. "Feedback
                        extortion" is the term. It is in the Ebay rulebook, and yes, I have
                        busted buyers that have tried to pull this crap with me.

                        --
                        Will - never below 99.7 percent, with nearly 7000 feedbacks.
                      • Evan Koblentz
                        ... number is #0000001. The seller isn t claiming it is the first of that particular model, he/she is claiming it s the first model of laptop computer ....
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                          >>> If he really wants to prove it's "The First" ask him if the serial
                          number is #0000001.

                          The seller isn't claiming it is the first of that particular model, he/she
                          is claiming it's the first model of laptop computer .... Which is very funny
                          because of what Jim pointed out ("Model 2") and also because there were LOTS
                          of laptops on the market from 81 - 83 .... Before this one came around in
                          84.
                        • fairlanefastback
                          Interesting. I clearly did not say all. I said almost universally because in my experience since being a member since 1995 that is so, that almost all
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                            Interesting. I clearly did not say all. I said "almost universally"
                            because in my experience since being a member since 1995 that is so,
                            that almost all sllers would withhold feedback until you gave them
                            good feedback. Rather than giving good feedback upon quick payment
                            (which is holding up your end of the transaction as a buyer). I don't
                            know you. So I certainly never said you were among that very large
                            majority that I have witnesed for the last 14 years. If you were one
                            of the few good ones in that regard, bravo! I never said you did not
                            exist.

                            So how could this be painting you personally, in any way?

                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, William Donzelli
                            <wdonzelli@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                            > > almost universally abused the feedback system.
                            >
                            > Thanks for painting all of us with such a wide brush.
                            >
                            > Buyers also abused (and keep abusing) the feedback system. "Feedback
                            > extortion" is the term. It is in the Ebay rulebook, and yes, I have
                            > busted buyers that have tried to pull this crap with me.
                            >
                            > --
                            > Will - never below 99.7 percent, with nearly 7000 feedbacks.
                            >
                          • Christopher Blackmon
                            So what s a seller supposed to do when it takes 7 days (not exactly quickly) for the buyer to pay? Give negative feedback then? What do you think the buyer is
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                              So what's a seller supposed to do when it takes 7 days (not exactly quickly) for the buyer to pay?
                              Give negative feedback then?  What do you think the buyer is going to do... respond that they're
                              happy with the transaction?

                              Christopher.



                              From: fairlanefastback <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:47:12 PM
                              Subject: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage Data Gen

                              Interesting. I clearly did not say all. I said "almost universally"
                              because in my experience since being a member since 1995 that is so,
                              that almost all sllers would withhold feedback until you gave them
                              good feedback. Rather than giving good feedback upon quick payment
                              (which is holding up your end of the transaction as a buyer). I don't
                              know you. So I certainly never said you were among that very large
                              majority that I have witnesed for the last 14 years. If you were one
                              of the few good ones in that regard, bravo! I never said you did not
                              exist.

                              So how could this be painting you personally, in any way?

                              --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, William Donzelli
                              <wdonzelli@. ..> wrote:

                              >
                              > > As a buyer though I welcome one sided feedback. Only because sellers
                              > > almost universally abused the feedback system.
                              >
                              > Thanks for painting all of us with such a wide brush.
                              >
                              > Buyers also abused (and keep abusing) the feedback system. "Feedback
                              > extortion" is the term. It is in the Ebay rulebook, and yes, I have
                              > busted buyers that have tried to pull this crap with me.
                              >
                              > --
                              > Will - never below 99.7 percent, with nearly 7000 feedbacks.
                              >


                            • William Donzelli
                              ... Close enough to get the point across. ... Whenever people paint dealers (Ebay or otherwise) negatively with such a broad stroke, all dealers suffer. Now, I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                > Interesting. I clearly did not say all. I said "almost universally"

                                Close enough to get the point across.

                                > So how could this be painting you personally, in any way?

                                Whenever people paint dealers (Ebay or otherwise) negatively with such
                                a broad stroke, all dealers suffer. Now, I have a very good reputation
                                in my field, and very good ratings - but I still get people that think
                                I am trying to rip them off. They believe all the negative crap that
                                many people say (like your previous statement) over the hard data and
                                numbers of the feedback system. About every other week I have to calm
                                some customer down because of some idea they have in their head that I
                                am going to [fill in the evil Ebay seller dirty deed du jour] and
                                screw them. Where are they getting these ideas? Yes, maybe they have
                                been screwed in the past, but maybe it is because some people spew all
                                the negative crap to public lists (well...like your previous
                                statement). Sometimes I ask these worried customers why they feel like
                                they do - if they have been scammed in the past - and most either shut
                                up or say "well, I heard that...".

                                And for painting me personally? Yes, the damage is done. It may be
                                miniscule, but it does translate into lost sales. I have heard on some
                                lists people say that no one should bid on anything unless the seller
                                has a 99.9 plus feedback. There are probably a few people that have
                                followed that rather ultra-strict advice. Maybe they held back a bid
                                on something. Maybe it was one of my things. Lost sales because of
                                unreasonable advice from someone that painted all sellers as potential
                                crooks.

                                So, please use more care when expressing opinions. You are certainly
                                allowed to say what you want, short of libel, but there is such a
                                thing as responsibility.

                                --
                                Will
                              • fairlanefastback
                                ... My point was exactly what I stated. It was not anything further than what I stated. I already made that clear, so please don t continue to state
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                  --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, William Donzelli
                                  <wdonzelli@...> wrote:
                                  > Close enough to get the point across.

                                  My point was exactly what I stated. It was not anything further than
                                  what I stated. I already made that clear, so please don't continue to
                                  state otherwise. Almost all sellers I dealt with would withhold
                                  feedback until you gave them positive feedback. Most were brazen
                                  enough to specifically state such in communications. A few did the
                                  right thing and would give positive feedback upon quick payment. They
                                  were the minority. But I never said they did not exist. If you are
                                  part of that minority, god bless!

                                  > Whenever people paint dealers (Ebay or otherwise) negatively with >such
                                  > a broad stroke, all dealers suffer.

                                  There is no reason to alter a statement of fact. You don't need to be
                                  very savvy at all as a buyer to understand that saying almost all is
                                  not the same as saying all. And I did not say that all of these
                                  sellers who did this were rip-offs. Far from it. I got most items in
                                  the condition as stated and quickly, but where they still did this
                                  feedback hostage thing, where you'd only be given good positive
                                  feedback as a buyer if you did so for them first. Even though you are
                                  the one as the buyer who has to extend yourself first by paying, and
                                  where you've done your duty to the transaction right away. Quid pro
                                  quo is I pay you out of trust. You give me good feedback for paying
                                  you quickly out of trust. I get item as described. You get my good
                                  feedback in return.

                                  > ...rip them off. They believe all the negative crap that
                                  > many people say (like your previous statement) over the hard data and
                                  > numbers of the feedback system.

                                  Two issues here. Again, I did not say in any shape or form that most
                                  ebay sellers were rip-off artists. I said almost all would not give
                                  feedback until you gave feedback first. That does not make them
                                  rip-offs. It just means the selling community, for the most part, had
                                  the wrong attitude on how the feedback system should work. The
                                  selling community hurt itself with this defensive posture that the
                                  majority took.

                                  The second issue, the "hard data" of the feedback system. Plenty of
                                  buyers withheld negative feedback because they did not want the
                                  retribution on their accounts. Even though they deserved positive
                                  feedback for quickly paying. That was part of the point of the change
                                  by ebay, to make it so seller ratings would get more realistic.

                                  > About every other week I have to calm
                                  > some customer down because of some idea they have in their head that I
                                  > am going to [fill in the evil Ebay seller dirty deed du jour] and
                                  > screw them. Where are they getting these ideas? Yes, maybe they have
                                  > been screwed in the past, but maybe it is because some people spew all
                                  > the negative crap to public lists (well...like your previous
                                  > statement). Sometimes I ask these worried customers why they feel like
                                  > they do - if they have been scammed in the past - and most either shut
                                  > up or say "well, I heard that...".

                                  I'm sorry, but me sharing my opinion of what I have seen over 14 years
                                  does not make me responsible for someone who does this. AGAIN, where
                                  did I say anything about scamming???? The answer is nowhere. You are
                                  projecting.


                                  > And for painting me personally? Yes, the damage is done. It may be
                                  > miniscule, but it does translate into lost sales. I have heard on some
                                  > lists people say that no one should bid on anything unless the seller
                                  > has a 99.9 plus feedback. There are probably a few people that have
                                  > followed that rather ultra-strict advice. Maybe they held back a bid
                                  > on something. Maybe it was one of my things. Lost sales because of
                                  > unreasonable advice from someone that painted all sellers as potential
                                  > crooks.
                                  >
                                  > So, please use more care when expressing opinions. You are certainly
                                  > allowed to say what you want, short of libel, but there is such a
                                  > thing as responsibility.

                                  If someone applies something to you that does not apply, thats their
                                  fault, not mine. Thats responsibility (or the lack thereof). If you
                                  give positive feedback upon quick payment what I said does not apply
                                  to you. Period, end.
                                • fairlanefastback
                                  http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/unpaid-items.html This seems pretty clear. After 7 days you contact the buyer. You can even initiate a unpaid item case at
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                    http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/unpaid-items.html

                                    This seems pretty clear. After 7 days you contact the buyer.

                                    You can even initiate a unpaid item case at that point. They don't
                                    even make you wait for any buyer response after 7 days post auction close.

                                    From that point the buyer is given 7 days to respond.

                                    Regardless, this has nothing to do with my point. Which was that I am
                                    glad they changed the feedback system. Since I am a buyer who almost
                                    always paid immediately. You brought this issue up. Its just my
                                    opinion back.

                                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Blackmon
                                    <ckblackm@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > So what's a seller supposed to do when it takes 7 days (not exactly
                                    quickly) for the buyer to pay?
                                    > Give negative feedback then? What do you think the buyer is going
                                    to do... respond that they're
                                    > happy with the transaction?
                                    >
                                    > Christopher.
                                  • William Donzelli
                                    You do not seem to get that what you said reflects ALL sellers in a bad light. We, the honest (vast) majority, do not need this bad PR. We get plenty. All day,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                      You do not seem to get that what you said reflects ALL sellers in a
                                      bad light. We, the honest (vast) majority, do not need this bad PR. We
                                      get plenty. All day, all lists, all the time. Yes, I used some extreme
                                      examples - but they were to get the point across. Just please think
                                      about what you have said, and what may become of it, no matter how
                                      insignificant.

                                      By the way, it is really not a good idea to piss off a dealer. WE do
                                      the legwork for most of you collectors. The dumbest thing a collector
                                      of classic computers can do is piss off their local scrapper/antiques
                                      dealer/flea marketter/whatever. We remember these things. Hint - a
                                      little respect can go a long way. People of MARCH should have figured
                                      this out by now.

                                      Oh, and as for withholding getting feedback up - did you ever think
                                      that maybe we sellers are too busy fulfilling orders and finding new
                                      stock? Giving feedback tends to be shoved off to the last minute,
                                      simply due to priorities. We make no money on leaving feedback - all
                                      it does is suck away precious time.

                                      Speaking of time, I think I am done with this conversation. I do not
                                      think I will change your mind.

                                      End.

                                      --
                                      Will
                                    • Christopher Blackmon
                                      That wasn t my question... maybe I shouldn t have put a time qualifier. You keep saying that once a buyer has made their quick payment.. they should receive
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                        That wasn't my question... maybe I shouldn't have put a time qualifier.  You keep
                                        saying that once a buyer has made their quick payment.. they should receive feedback.... ok,
                                        so what happens if a buyer doesn't make a quick payment?  Or, perhaps they decide after
                                        the auction has been won, they want to "renegotiate" for a lower price, or lower shipping?

                                        What's a seller supposed to do to avoid feedback extortion?

                                        You favor the new feedback probably because you don't sell... so of course you prefer something
                                        that puts all the power on the buyers side.  It's very difficult to have a marketplace when the market
                                        is so one-sided.  Perhaps that's why ebay's been going downhill so much.

                                        Christopher.



                                        From: fairlanefastback <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:00:56 PM
                                        Subject: OT: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage Data Gen

                                        http://pages. ebay.com/ help/sell/ unpaid-items. html

                                        This seems pretty clear. After 7 days you contact the buyer.

                                        You can even initiate a unpaid item case at that point. They don't
                                        even make you wait for any buyer response after 7 days post auction close.

                                        From that point the buyer is given 7 days to respond.

                                        Regardless, this has nothing to do with my point. Which was that I am
                                        glad they changed the feedback system. Since I am a buyer who almost
                                        always paid immediately. You brought this issue up. Its just my
                                        opinion back.

                                        --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, Christopher Blackmon
                                        <ckblackm@.. .> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > So what's a seller supposed to do when it takes 7 days (not exactly
                                        quickly) for the buyer to pay?
                                        > Give negative feedback then? What do you think the buyer is going
                                        to do... respond that they're
                                        > happy with the transaction?
                                        >
                                        > Christopher.


                                      • William Donzelli
                                        ... Report them, with supporting emails and messages. It works well, actually. EBay will never tell what the results of such an investigation are, but most of
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                          > What's a seller supposed to do to avoid feedback extortion?

                                          Report them, with supporting emails and messages. It works well,
                                          actually. EBay will never tell what the results of such an
                                          investigation are, but most of the time, in a few days the deal looks
                                          a whole lot better to the seller. And sometimes, the troublesome
                                          buyer's account gets suspended.

                                          > You favor the new feedback probably because you don't sell...

                                          A very common issue. Things are very different when a mortgage payment
                                          depends on dealer sales.

                                          --
                                          Will
                                        • fairlanefastback
                                          ... Lets be clear here. I don t want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying you would blacklist buyers who pay on-time with no haggling because you don t
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
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                                            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, William Donzelli
                                            <wdonzelli@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > By the way, it is really not a good idea to piss off a dealer. WE do
                                            > the legwork for most of you collectors. The dumbest thing a collector
                                            > of classic computers can do is piss off their local scrapper/antiques
                                            > dealer/flea marketter/whatever.
                                            > We remember these things. Hint - a
                                            > little respect can go a long way. People of MARCH should have figured
                                            > this out by now.

                                            Lets be clear here. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you
                                            saying you would blacklist buyers who pay on-time with no haggling
                                            because you don't like their opinion in regard to how the majority of
                                            sellers previously worked with the ebay feedback system?

                                            This is a hobby. I'm not going to die if you don't want to sell
                                            something to me. I'm probably better off putting it in the kid's
                                            college fund anyway. If I am reading you correctly you are working
                                            off an odd sense of spite IMHO. Nobody personally attacked you or
                                            called anything you do into question. A seller gave his perspective
                                            in a post, and I as a buyer gave mine in return. Big whoop!

                                            > Oh, and as for withholding getting feedback up - did you ever think
                                            > that maybe we sellers are too busy fulfilling orders and finding new
                                            > stock? Giving feedback tends to be shoved off to the last minute,
                                            > simply due to priorities. We make no money on leaving feedback - all
                                            > it does is suck away precious time.

                                            I clearly stated that many were brazen enough to state it up front (or
                                            in later communications) that they would grant buyers positive
                                            feedback only upon first giving positive feedback themselves. And
                                            most other positive feedback from sellers was quite timely, not with
                                            payment, but only after they got positive feedback from me. Most
                                            obviously had the time.

                                            And lets be realistic here. It does not only suck away time for a
                                            seller. It shows customer appreciation William. And it reminds
                                            buyers that there is a feedback system and can inspire more positive
                                            feedback for your business, which in turn increases consumer
                                            confidence. You yourself took the time to post your feedback stats in
                                            your first response.


                                            >
                                            > Speaking of time, I think I am done with this conversation. I do not
                                            > think I will change your mind.

                                            Cool. Adios.
                                          • Bob Schwier
                                            I admit that I ve heard the debate from the front and am replying to something further in the past. My wife put something in her shopping basket and it was
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 23, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I admit that I've heard the debate from the front and am replying to something
                                              further in the past.

                                              My wife put something in her shopping basket and it was conveniently sent out
                                              fairly quickly even though she thought she had actually canceled the
                                              transaction. We are stuck with a TIVO type 2 which does not seem to work
                                              with antenna systems.
                                              bs






                                              Quoting Christopher Blackmon <ckblackm@...>:

                                              > My biggest problem as a seller is how easy it has become for a buyer to jerk
                                              > around/defraud sellers: One sided feedback, no verification of buyers,
                                              > multiple NPB's to be disqualified,
                                              > 45 days to return items - regardless of your individual TOS, buyer can take
                                              > as much time as they wish to pay, paypal almost always siding with buyers, no
                                              > more solicitation of paper
                                              > payments... the list goes on... just check out the seller central board on
                                              > ebay... lots of stories on there.
                                              >
                                              > Christopher.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Bill Degnan <billdeg@...>
                                              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:40:18 PM
                                              > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Another first laptop on eBay - Vintage
                                              > Data General One Model 2 - 1st Laptop Computer!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > <snip>
                                              > >
                                              > > This is something I was trying to point out on Friday -- eBay sucks.
                                              > >
                                              > > It's gone haywire. Everybody now posts crap trying to sell it like
                                              > > gold. And the only sellers left are professional "power sellers" who
                                              > > have computer recycling centers and are selling crap they buy by the
                                              > > pound as scrap for $499 a pop.
                                              > >
                                              > <snip>
                                              >
                                              > There are many who agree with you about Ebay. I would add that most power
                                              > sellers used to have their own web sites, now they just use Ebay instead.
                                              > In other words, people who had been trying to sell items at higher retail
                                              > prices elsewhere have almost all migrated to Ebay. You just didn't know
                                              > about them as much. That does not make Ebay itself a bad thing. The
                                              > incredible cost savings of letting Ebay be your business web site is
                                              > irresistible. Ebay has made small business competitive with larger
                                              > outfits, it's an excellent playing field leveler...now what sellers do with
                                              > this opportunity is another thing!
                                              >
                                              > I am in the web design business since 1995. It's almost impossible today
                                              > to have an eCommerce web site on the cheap, the small sellers are all
                                              > migrating to Ebay and Amazon because they can't afford the overhead of
                                              > programming, secure keys, security programming, design, etc. This has had
                                              > an impact on my business, and our focus has for the past three years moved
                                              > to larger clients who can afford professional level web services.
                                              >
                                              > Small power sellers pay the same amount for a warehouse regardless of what
                                              > they put in it, and they pick a price and wait, it does not matter as much
                                              > if the item sells quickly, no extra cost to them. If you want Ebay to
                                              > return to what it was, it ain't going to happen. Use craigslist.com
                                              > instead, if you prefer the flea market approach. I think that people
                                              > underestimate the amount of programming and support Ebay puts into their
                                              > web site, and complain about it. You're mad at the road and not the
                                              > driver, if you get my meaning. You can complain about fees, but believe me
                                              > someone else would have taken their place by now. There are 50 competitors
                                              > to Ebay, and none of them even come close in volume or products. Nothing
                                              > against those who don't like Ebay personally, but I believe that part of
                                              > this animosity is due to a lack in understanding of the web services market
                                              > of which I am a veteran and quite experienced.
                                              >
                                              > I have sold thousands of dollars of stuff on Ebay, and aside from my
                                              > Commodore poster, I almost always set the starting price at $1.00. I find
                                              > that I get a better selling price that way. I have the old Ebay spirit,
                                              > and it works. I think that the power sellers, some of them anyway, are
                                              > stupid too from an economic standpoint.
                                              >
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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