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RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

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  • Evan
    Mark, ... We certainly can, and it s not high as you might think. The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Mark,
       
      >>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
       
      We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition, according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
       
      I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land, still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
       
      An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50 for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and collectible in another couple of years for its 20th anniversary.
       
      - Evan
       


      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:04 PM
      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

      In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
         billdeg@... said:



      >The last vintage
      Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
      >MAC. And
      while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
      >Amigas are
      not  vintage.  It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
      >will never be  vintage computers.  There is no sliding
      time scale where
      >each year a new set of  machines becomes
      vintage.  In short, the vintage
      >era ended for new machine
      models  that were first released no later than
      >1987, and mostly
      before 1985. 

      >That does not mean that I don't save newer
      interesting computers however,
      >I  just don't call them
      "vintage".

      >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
      someday?  I think
      >not.

      >And for making such statements I
      am standing behind the chicken wire so
      >feel  free to throw your beer
      bottles at will.  I expect differences in
      >opinion.

      >Thank
      you very much.


      Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
      value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff.  I remember the guy who wrote
      the original documentation for the original IBM PC.  They gave him the
      very first PC ever made to write it on.  I asked what happened to that
      machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
      replaced it with a newer model.  Can you imagine the value of the very
      first IBM PC?  I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
      after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

      There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors.  They fiercely defend
      the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made.  I'm not a collector
      myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
      has come since.  I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
      mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
      viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs.  It was supposed to run
      IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware.  That particular product
      line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
      the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
      Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
      get.  So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
      chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
      PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
      year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
      Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


      Mark


      --

      From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

      Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
      Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

      For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

    • madodel@ptdprolog.net
      In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM, ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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        In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
        "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



        >>>> Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
        >
        >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think. The original IBM
        >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
        >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers". The book
        >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
        >

        My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
        IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful
        computer introduction ever. IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
        275,000 over 5 years for the PC. They had about 500,000 sold before it
        was even officially announced. And now IBM is out of the PC business.


        >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
        >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
        >
        >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
        >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
        >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
        >anniversary.

        I agree. Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
        original shipping box, never used. It had been in a computer dealer's
        storage for about 15 years. That I was willing to go as high as $150
        before I gave up. At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
        looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
        just plain nuts. ;-)

        Mark


        --

        From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

        Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
        Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

        For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
      • Michael Nadeau
        ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful computer
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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          >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM
          PC?
          >
          >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might
          think.  The original IBM
          >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about
          $50-$150 depending on condition,
          >according to Mike Nadeau's book
          "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
          >is a year or two old, but
          the price is fairly steady.
          >

          My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
          IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
          computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
          275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
          was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.

          ---
          For the 15th anniversary issue of BYTE, we were interviewing one of the original designers of the first PC when he asked, "would you like us to send you the prototype? It's in a closet around here somewhere." We got the prototype a short time later. It was just the motherboard, quite dusty. If you have the September 1990 issue, you can see a couple of photos on pages 416 and 417.
           
          --Mike
        • Evan
          I m confused. Do mean THE original as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM s first microcomputer long before
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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            I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
             
            If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
            Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

            In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
               "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



            >>>>  Can you
            imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
            >
            >We certainly can,
            and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
            >PC - aka the
            Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
            >according to
            Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
            >is a year
            or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
            >

            My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
            IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
            computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
            275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
            was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


            >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and
            elsewhere in x86-land,
            >still consider themselves "users" more than
            "collectors".
            >
            >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying
            any more than about $50
            >for in great condition - might be considered
            really vintage and
            >collectible in another couple of years for its
            20th
            >anniversary.

            I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
            original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
            storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
            before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
            looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
            just plain nuts. ;-) 

            Mark


            --

            From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

            Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
            Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

            For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

              "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

          • Bob Applegate
            The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk. BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the spelling
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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              The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
               
              BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
              spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
              Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
              west doing something.
               
              Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
              directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
               
              Bob
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Evan
              Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
              Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

              I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
               
              If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
              Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

              In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                 "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



              >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
              >
              >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
              >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
              >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
              >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
              >

              My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
              IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
              computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
              275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
              was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


              >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
              >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
              >
              >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
              >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
              >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
              >anniversary.

              I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
              original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
              storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
              before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
              looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
              just plain nuts. ;-) 

              Mark


              --

              From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

              Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
              Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

              For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

            • Evan
              ... probably share some of their experiences/knowledge. Very interesting! Speak up, people! ... It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                >>> There are others on this list who worked directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                 
                Very interesting!  Speak up, people!
                 
                Here's a story I wrote for the Feb. 2, 2004 issue of Computer Collector:
                 
                -----------------------------------------------
                 
                It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a screwdriver.

                David Bradley chose the former method for doing a warm reboot of IBM's original PC, and he did a lot more.

                "Early in '81, we were dealing with prototype software, prototype hardware, and as you would attempt to try things out it would hang up. We needed a faster way than turning the power off, waiting a moment, turning it back on. I stuffed a specific value in a location in memory and jumped to the reset vector," he explained, in an interview with Computer Collector today.

                But why'd he pick those three keys? "It's not as if somebody said 'we need you to pick out three keys to reboot the machine'," he explained. "Two of them had to be shift keys," since most of the IBM PC's memory was already spoken for. "I'm already tracking whether these four shift keys are up or down. So I picked Ctrl and Alt as the two newest, least used keys. Ctrl-Alt-Delete has a better mnemonic feel than Ctrl-Alt-Plus," he said.

                "The systems we had in the lab, it was easy to reset them, you just struck a screwdriver across a couple of contacts."

                For Bradley, now 55, it was hardly the highlight of his career. He graduated in 1971 from the University of Dayton (Ohio), the same year as Intel released the 4004 chip, and received his Ph.D. from Purdue in 1975, the year of MITS' Altair kit. "The first computer I ever used would have been a [IBM] 360," he said. He joined IBM in June 1975 and worked on the System/23 Datamaster in 1978 - IBM's first computer with a non-IBM processor. For the IBM PC, he wrote the entire BIOS. "I wrote virtually all of the code that's there with the exception of the cassette and the power-on self-test," he said.

                Had they known it'd last 20 years, some things would have been done differently. For example, "The interrupts on what's now called the ISA bus are positive-edge triggered and we should have made them negative. The consequence of that decision is it was impossible to share interrupts," he said.

                Bradley said he doesn't maintain a personal collection, but has owned various significant machines over the years. "For a while I had one of the original lab-built IBM PCs, but unfortunately in a move, I have no idea what happened to it. I may still have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 sitting around somewhere.


                From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Applegate
                Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:59 AM
                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                 
                BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                west doing something.
                 
                Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                 
                Bob
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Evan
                Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                 
                If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                   "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                >
                >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                >

                My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                >
                >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                >anniversary.

                I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                just plain nuts. ;-) 

                Mark


                --

                From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                  "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

              • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM, ... According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                  In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM,
                  "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                  >I'm confused. Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or
                  >do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer
                  >long before the "PC" series?
                  >
                  >If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum --
                  >like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters
                  >in Armonk, NY.

                  According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly
                  line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what documentation it
                  needed.

                  Mark

                  --

                  From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                  Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                  Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                  For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                  "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
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