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Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

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  • billdeg@aol.com
    I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 31 8:29 AM
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      I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
    • Evan
      See, I don t know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they ve got a better definition ... because the one I gave just
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 31 10:56 AM
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        See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I gave just barely works.  The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
         
        *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.   ;)


        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
        Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

        I will never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
      • Jim Scheef
        Bill, Evan, all, Here s my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I m not changing. To me, vintage , in the context of computers, means something old
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 31 9:03 PM
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          Bill, Evan, all,

          Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
          me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
          relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
          unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
          from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
          believe it to be.

          I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
          'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
          is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
          200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
          serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
          and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
          upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
          problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
          another story.

          Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
          introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
          ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
          the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
          Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
          software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
          great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

          So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
          unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
          beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
          not really.

          Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
          their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
          3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

          Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

          Jim

          --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

          > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO*
          > bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I
          > gave just barely works. The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
          >
          > *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
          > ;)
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
          > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple
          > computer?
          >
          >
          > I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          >
          > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
          >
          >
          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          >
          >
          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          >
          >
        • Evan
          ... Ugh, no no no no no. I agreed mostly until this sentence. For the purpose of our hobby, vintage implies being synonomous with collectible . No special
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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            >>> Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...
             
            Ugh, no no no no no.  I agreed mostly until this sentence.
             
            For the purpose of our hobby, "vintage" implies being synonomous with "collectible".  No special categories are needed; that is how we get David G.'s PDP-8 and Bill D.'s Commodore stuff and my Psion 1 into the same room and tell attendees it's all the same hobby.  Of course they're all different categories of computing technology, but equally "vintage".  It's just a matter of personal and subjective preferences.
             
            You're right that the Deskpro 386, PS/2, and even Windows NT were rather unique when new, but I don't believe they are obsolete enough.  Let's ask again in five or ten years.  :)
             

            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
            Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:04 AM
            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

            Bill, Evan, all,

            Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
            me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
            relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
            unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
            from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
            believe it to be.

            I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
            'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
            is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
            200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
            serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
            and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
            upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
            problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
            another story.

            Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
            introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
            ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
            the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
            Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
            software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
            great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

            So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
            unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
            beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
            not really.

            Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
            their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
            3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

            Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

            Jim

            --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

            > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I
            challenge anyone TO*
            > bring it up again if they've got a better
            definition ... because the one I
            > gave just barely works.  The
            qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.

            > *Also, if
            you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
            >
            ;)
            >
            >   _____ 
            >
            > From:
            midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            >
            [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
            >
            Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
            > To:
            midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is
            considered a vintage apple
            > computer?
            >
            >
            > I will
            never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
            >
            >
            >   _____ 
            >
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            >      
            >
            *      Visit your group "midatlanticretro
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
            >  
            >
            >
            *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >  midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >  
            >
            > *      Your use
            of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            > <
            href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
            >
            >
            >   _____ 
            >
            >
            >

          • madodel@ptdprolog.net
            In , on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM, ... Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great value, I wouldn t
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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              In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
              billdeg@... said:



              >The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage
              >MAC. And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
              >Amigas are not vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
              >will never be vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where
              >each year a new set of machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage
              >era ended for new machine models that were first released no later than
              >1987, and mostly before 1985.

              >That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however,
              >I just don't call them "vintage".

              >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think
              >not.

              >And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so
              >feel free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in
              >opinion.

              >Thank you very much.


              Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
              value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff. I remember the guy who wrote
              the original documentation for the original IBM PC. They gave him the
              very first PC ever made to write it on. I asked what happened to that
              machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
              replaced it with a newer model. Can you imagine the value of the very
              first IBM PC? I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
              after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

              There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors. They fiercely defend
              the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made. I'm not a collector
              myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
              has come since. I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
              mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
              viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs. It was supposed to run
              IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware. That particular product
              line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
              the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
              Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
              get. So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
              chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
              PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
              year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
              Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


              Mark


              --

              From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

              Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
              Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

              For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

              "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
            • Evan
              Mark, ... We certainly can, and it s not high as you might think. The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                Mark,
                 
                >>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                 
                We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition, according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                 
                I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land, still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                 
                An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50 for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and collectible in another couple of years for its 20th anniversary.
                 
                - Evan
                 


                From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:04 PM
                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
                   billdeg@... said:



                >The last vintage
                Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
                >MAC. And
                while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                >Amigas are
                not  vintage.  It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
                >will never be  vintage computers.  There is no sliding
                time scale where
                >each year a new set of  machines becomes
                vintage.  In short, the vintage
                >era ended for new machine
                models  that were first released no later than
                >1987, and mostly
                before 1985. 

                >That does not mean that I don't save newer
                interesting computers however,
                >I  just don't call them
                "vintage".

                >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
                someday?  I think
                >not.

                >And for making such statements I
                am standing behind the chicken wire so
                >feel  free to throw your beer
                bottles at will.  I expect differences in
                >opinion.

                >Thank
                you very much.


                Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
                value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff.  I remember the guy who wrote
                the original documentation for the original IBM PC.  They gave him the
                very first PC ever made to write it on.  I asked what happened to that
                machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
                replaced it with a newer model.  Can you imagine the value of the very
                first IBM PC?  I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
                after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

                There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors.  They fiercely defend
                the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made.  I'm not a collector
                myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
                has come since.  I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
                mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
                viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs.  It was supposed to run
                IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware.  That particular product
                line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
                the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
                Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
                get.  So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
                chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
                PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
                year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
                Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


                Mark


                --

                From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                  "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

              • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM, ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                  In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                  "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                  >>>> Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                  >
                  >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think. The original IBM
                  >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                  >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers". The book
                  >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                  >

                  My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                  IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful
                  computer introduction ever. IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                  275,000 over 5 years for the PC. They had about 500,000 sold before it
                  was even officially announced. And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                  >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                  >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                  >
                  >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                  >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                  >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                  >anniversary.

                  I agree. Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                  original shipping box, never used. It had been in a computer dealer's
                  storage for about 15 years. That I was willing to go as high as $150
                  before I gave up. At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                  looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                  just plain nuts. ;-)

                  Mark


                  --

                  From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                  Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                  Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                  For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                  "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
                • Michael Nadeau
                  ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful computer
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                    >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM
                    PC?
                    >
                    >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might
                    think.  The original IBM
                    >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about
                    $50-$150 depending on condition,
                    >according to Mike Nadeau's book
                    "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                    >is a year or two old, but
                    the price is fairly steady.
                    >

                    My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                    IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                    computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                    275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                    was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.

                    ---
                    For the 15th anniversary issue of BYTE, we were interviewing one of the original designers of the first PC when he asked, "would you like us to send you the prototype? It's in a closet around here somewhere." We got the prototype a short time later. It was just the motherboard, quite dusty. If you have the September 1990 issue, you can see a couple of photos on pages 416 and 417.
                     
                    --Mike
                  • Evan
                    I m confused. Do mean THE original as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM s first microcomputer long before
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                      I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                       
                      If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                      In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                         "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                      >>>>  Can you
                      imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                      >
                      >We certainly can,
                      and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                      >PC - aka the
                      Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                      >according to
                      Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                      >is a year
                      or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                      >

                      My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                      IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                      computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                      275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                      was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                      >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and
                      elsewhere in x86-land,
                      >still consider themselves "users" more than
                      "collectors".
                      >
                      >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying
                      any more than about $50
                      >for in great condition - might be considered
                      really vintage and
                      >collectible in another couple of years for its
                      20th
                      >anniversary.

                      I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                      original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                      storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                      before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                      looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                      just plain nuts. ;-) 

                      Mark


                      --

                      From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                      Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                      Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                      For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                    • Bob Applegate
                      The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk. BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the spelling
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                        The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                         
                        BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                        spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                        Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                        west doing something.
                         
                        Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                        directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                         
                        Bob
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Evan
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                        Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                        I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                         
                        If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                        In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                           "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                        >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                        >
                        >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                        >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                        >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                        >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                        >

                        My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                        IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                        computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                        275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                        was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                        >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                        >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                        >
                        >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                        >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                        >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                        >anniversary.

                        I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                        original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                        storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                        before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                        looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                        just plain nuts. ;-) 

                        Mark


                        --

                        From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                        Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                        Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                        For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                          "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                      • Evan
                        ... probably share some of their experiences/knowledge. Very interesting! Speak up, people! ... It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                          >>> There are others on this list who worked directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                           
                          Very interesting!  Speak up, people!
                           
                          Here's a story I wrote for the Feb. 2, 2004 issue of Computer Collector:
                           
                          -----------------------------------------------
                           
                          It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a screwdriver.

                          David Bradley chose the former method for doing a warm reboot of IBM's original PC, and he did a lot more.

                          "Early in '81, we were dealing with prototype software, prototype hardware, and as you would attempt to try things out it would hang up. We needed a faster way than turning the power off, waiting a moment, turning it back on. I stuffed a specific value in a location in memory and jumped to the reset vector," he explained, in an interview with Computer Collector today.

                          But why'd he pick those three keys? "It's not as if somebody said 'we need you to pick out three keys to reboot the machine'," he explained. "Two of them had to be shift keys," since most of the IBM PC's memory was already spoken for. "I'm already tracking whether these four shift keys are up or down. So I picked Ctrl and Alt as the two newest, least used keys. Ctrl-Alt-Delete has a better mnemonic feel than Ctrl-Alt-Plus," he said.

                          "The systems we had in the lab, it was easy to reset them, you just struck a screwdriver across a couple of contacts."

                          For Bradley, now 55, it was hardly the highlight of his career. He graduated in 1971 from the University of Dayton (Ohio), the same year as Intel released the 4004 chip, and received his Ph.D. from Purdue in 1975, the year of MITS' Altair kit. "The first computer I ever used would have been a [IBM] 360," he said. He joined IBM in June 1975 and worked on the System/23 Datamaster in 1978 - IBM's first computer with a non-IBM processor. For the IBM PC, he wrote the entire BIOS. "I wrote virtually all of the code that's there with the exception of the cassette and the power-on self-test," he said.

                          Had they known it'd last 20 years, some things would have been done differently. For example, "The interrupts on what's now called the ISA bus are positive-edge triggered and we should have made them negative. The consequence of that decision is it was impossible to share interrupts," he said.

                          Bradley said he doesn't maintain a personal collection, but has owned various significant machines over the years. "For a while I had one of the original lab-built IBM PCs, but unfortunately in a move, I have no idea what happened to it. I may still have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 sitting around somewhere.


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Applegate
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:59 AM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                          The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                           
                          BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                          spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                          Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                          west doing something.
                           
                          Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                          directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                           
                          Bob
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Evan
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                          I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                           
                          If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                          In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                             "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                          >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                          >
                          >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                          >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                          >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                          >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                          >

                          My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                          IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                          computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                          275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                          was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                          >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                          >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                          >
                          >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                          >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                          >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                          >anniversary.

                          I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                          original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                          storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                          before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                          looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                          just plain nuts. ;-) 

                          Mark


                          --

                          From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                          Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                          Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                          For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                            "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                        • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                          In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM, ... According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM,
                            "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                            >I'm confused. Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or
                            >do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer
                            >long before the "PC" series?
                            >
                            >If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum --
                            >like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters
                            >in Armonk, NY.

                            According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly
                            line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what documentation it
                            needed.

                            Mark

                            --

                            From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                            Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                            Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                            For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                            "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
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