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Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

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  • billdeg@aol.com
    Evan, I was only kidding around In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... it ... original
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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      Evan,
      I was only kidding around

      In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      evan947@... writes:

      > This topic has come up many, many, many times before on classiccmp and
      > elsewhere.
      >
      > The debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let's PLEASE
      > avoid that here). They generally result in a three-pronged agreement: 1.,
      > no arbitrary age limit ever works; 2., the computer must be obsolete; 3.,
      it
      > must have been technologically unique when it was new.
      >
      > So an Amiga or an original Mac meet both categories and are definitely
      > vintage -- I'm quite surprised to hear that you feel otherwise. An
      original
      > IBM PC or a "luggable" computer would also qualify because of their
      > uniqueness when new. But I certainly agree with you about the majority of
      > x86 stuff, except for original 8086 stuff (again, the "unique technology
      > when it was new" category).
    • Evan
      Oh! Wow, that s a relief. I didn t realize that you were joking at all. _____ From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com]
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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        Oh!  Wow, that's a relief.
         
        I didn't realize that you were joking at all.


        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
        Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:44 PM
        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

        Evan,
        I was only kidding around

        In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        evan947@... writes:

        > This topic has come up many, many, many times before on
        classiccmp and
        >  elsewhere.
        >  
        >  The
        debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let's PLEASE
        >  avoid that here).  They generally result in a
        three-pronged agreement: 1.,
        >  no arbitrary age limit ever works;
        2., the computer must be obsolete; 3.,
        it
        >  must have been
        technologically unique when it was new.
        >  
        >  So an
        Amiga or an original Mac meet both categories and are definitely
        vintage -- I'm quite surprised to hear that you feel otherwise.  An
        original
        >  IBM PC or a "luggable" computer would also qualify
        because of their
        >  uniqueness when new.  But I certainly agree
        with you about the majority of
        >  x86 stuff, except for original 8086
        stuff (again, the "unique technology
        >  when it was new"
        category).
      • Jim Scheef
        Bill and all, Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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          Bill and all,

          Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I
          know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is vintage or
          not is immaterial to whether it is collectible or not. IOW, you're both
          right!

          As to the 1987 Sundance becoming vintage... In CT a car becomes vintage on
          it's 25th birthday. The state does not issue 'classic' plates for 25 year old
          Ferraris. If the car is 25 years or older, it is 'vintage' regardless of it's
          pedigree. While I tend to agree that there will never be a "Sundance Owners
          Club", you never know!

          Jim


          --- billdeg@... wrote:

          > The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage
          > MAC.
          > And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any Amigas are
          > not
          > vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's will never be
          > vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where each year a new
          > set of
          > machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage era ended for new machine
          > models
          > that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before 1985.
          >
          > That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however, I
          >
          > just don't call them "vintage".
          >
          > Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think not.
          >
          > And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so
          > feel
          > free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in opinion.
          >
          > Thank you very much.
          >
          > Bill
          >
          > In a message dated 7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > chrism3667@... writes:
          >
          > > in my opinion, vintage macs consist of the IIs and
          > > earlier machines. Some would even balk at stuff that
          > > late, but I would include the II, IIX, and IIFX in
          > > that they represent Apples foray into color. Possibly
          > > there were add on cards for the SE with which you
          > > could drive a big juicy external color monitor (and
          > > have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then again
          > > the SE may have been released at the same time as the
          > > II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell me
          > > what HMMU stands for :D
          >
        • Evan
          Jim, read ahead in your MARCH messages: Bill says he was joking. :) _____ From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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            Jim, read ahead in your MARCH messages: Bill says he was joking.   :)


            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
            Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:55 AM
            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

            Bill and all,

            Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I
            know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is vintage or
            not is immaterial to whether it is collectible or not. IOW, you're both
            right!

            As to the 1987 Sundance becoming vintage... In CT a car becomes vintage on
            it's 25th birthday. The state does not issue 'classic' plates for 25 year old
            Ferraris. If the car is 25 years or older, it is 'vintage' regardless of it's
            pedigree. While I tend to agree that there will never be a "Sundance Owners
            Club", you never know!

            Jim


            --- billdeg@... wrote:

            > The last
            vintage Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
            >
            MAC.
            > And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
            Amigas are
            > not
            > vintage.  It does not matter how many years
            go by, MAC's will never be
            > vintage computers.  There is no sliding
            time scale where each year a new
            > set of
            > machines becomes
            vintage.  In short, the vintage era ended for new machine
            > models
            > that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before
            1985. 
            >
            > That does not mean that I don't save newer
            interesting computers however, I
            >
            > just don't call them
            "vintage".
            >
            > Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
            someday?  I think not.
            >
            > And for making such statements I am
            standing behind the chicken wire so
            > feel
            > free to throw your
            beer bottles at will.  I expect differences in opinion.
            >
            >
            Thank you very much.
            >
            > Bill
            >
            > In a message dated
            7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > chrism3667@...
            writes:
            >
            > > in my opinion, vintage macs consist of the IIs
            and
            > >  earlier machines. Some would even balk at stuff
            that
            > >  late, but I would include the II, IIX, and IIFX
            in
            > >  that they represent Apples foray into color.
            Possibly
            > >  there were add on cards for the SE with which
            you
            > >  could drive a big juicy external color monitor
            (and
            > >  have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then
            again
            > >  the SE may have been released at the same time as
            the
            > >  II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell
            me
            > >  what HMMU stands for :D
            >
          • billdeg@aol.com
            I apologize...My point was that it seemed to me that any discussion about Windows or MACs was a little outside of the bounds of the group. Andy...I would love
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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              I apologize...My point was that it seemed to me that any discussion about
              Windows or MACs was a little outside of the bounds of the group.

              Andy...I would love an Amiga if you're giving one away!

              Bill
              In a message dated 7/30/2005 9:49:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              evan947@... writes:

              > Oh! Wow, that's a relief.
              >
              > I didn't realize that you were joking at all.
            • billdeg@aol.com
              I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
              • Evan
                See, I don t know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they ve got a better definition ... because the one I gave just
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                  See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I gave just barely works.  The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
                   
                  *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.   ;)


                  From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                  Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                  To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                  I will never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
                • Jim Scheef
                  Bill, Evan, all, Here s my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I m not changing. To me, vintage , in the context of computers, means something old
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                    Bill, Evan, all,

                    Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
                    me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
                    relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
                    unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
                    from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
                    believe it to be.

                    I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
                    'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
                    is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
                    200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
                    serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
                    and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
                    upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
                    problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
                    another story.

                    Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
                    introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
                    ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
                    the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
                    Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
                    software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
                    great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

                    So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
                    unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
                    beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
                    not really.

                    Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
                    their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
                    3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

                    Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

                    Jim

                    --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

                    > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO*
                    > bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I
                    > gave just barely works. The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
                    >
                    > *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
                    > ;)
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                    > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                    > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple
                    > computer?
                    >
                    >
                    > I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
                    >
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                    > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Evan
                    ... Ugh, no no no no no. I agreed mostly until this sentence. For the purpose of our hobby, vintage implies being synonomous with collectible . No special
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                      >>> Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...
                       
                      Ugh, no no no no no.  I agreed mostly until this sentence.
                       
                      For the purpose of our hobby, "vintage" implies being synonomous with "collectible".  No special categories are needed; that is how we get David G.'s PDP-8 and Bill D.'s Commodore stuff and my Psion 1 into the same room and tell attendees it's all the same hobby.  Of course they're all different categories of computing technology, but equally "vintage".  It's just a matter of personal and subjective preferences.
                       
                      You're right that the Deskpro 386, PS/2, and even Windows NT were rather unique when new, but I don't believe they are obsolete enough.  Let's ask again in five or ten years.  :)
                       

                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
                      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:04 AM
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                      Bill, Evan, all,

                      Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
                      me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
                      relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
                      unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
                      from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
                      believe it to be.

                      I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
                      'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
                      is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
                      200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
                      serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
                      and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
                      upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
                      problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
                      another story.

                      Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
                      introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
                      ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
                      the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
                      Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
                      software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
                      great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

                      So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
                      unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
                      beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
                      not really.

                      Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
                      their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
                      3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

                      Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

                      Jim

                      --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

                      > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I
                      challenge anyone TO*
                      > bring it up again if they've got a better
                      definition ... because the one I
                      > gave just barely works.  The
                      qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.

                      > *Also, if
                      you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
                      >
                      ;)
                      >
                      >   _____ 
                      >
                      > From:
                      midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                      >
                      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                      > To:
                      midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is
                      considered a vintage apple
                      > computer?
                      >
                      >
                      > I will
                      never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
                      >
                      >
                      >   _____ 
                      >
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      >
                      >      
                      >
                      *      Visit your group "midatlanticretro
                      >
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >  midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >  
                      >
                      > *      Your use
                      of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                      > <
                      href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                      >
                      >
                      >   _____ 
                      >
                      >
                      >

                    • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                      In , on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM, ... Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great value, I wouldn t
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                        In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
                        billdeg@... said:



                        >The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage
                        >MAC. And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                        >Amigas are not vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
                        >will never be vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where
                        >each year a new set of machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage
                        >era ended for new machine models that were first released no later than
                        >1987, and mostly before 1985.

                        >That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however,
                        >I just don't call them "vintage".

                        >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think
                        >not.

                        >And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so
                        >feel free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in
                        >opinion.

                        >Thank you very much.


                        Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
                        value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff. I remember the guy who wrote
                        the original documentation for the original IBM PC. They gave him the
                        very first PC ever made to write it on. I asked what happened to that
                        machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
                        replaced it with a newer model. Can you imagine the value of the very
                        first IBM PC? I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
                        after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

                        There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors. They fiercely defend
                        the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made. I'm not a collector
                        myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
                        has come since. I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
                        mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
                        viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs. It was supposed to run
                        IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware. That particular product
                        line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
                        the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
                        Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
                        get. So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
                        chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
                        PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
                        year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
                        Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


                        Mark


                        --

                        From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                        Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                        Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                        For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
                      • Evan
                        Mark, ... We certainly can, and it s not high as you might think. The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                          Mark,
                           
                          >>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                           
                          We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition, according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                           
                          I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land, still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                           
                          An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50 for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and collectible in another couple of years for its 20th anniversary.
                           
                          - Evan
                           


                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                          Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:04 PM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                          In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
                             billdeg@... said:



                          >The last vintage
                          Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
                          >MAC. And
                          while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                          >Amigas are
                          not  vintage.  It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
                          >will never be  vintage computers.  There is no sliding
                          time scale where
                          >each year a new set of  machines becomes
                          vintage.  In short, the vintage
                          >era ended for new machine
                          models  that were first released no later than
                          >1987, and mostly
                          before 1985. 

                          >That does not mean that I don't save newer
                          interesting computers however,
                          >I  just don't call them
                          "vintage".

                          >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
                          someday?  I think
                          >not.

                          >And for making such statements I
                          am standing behind the chicken wire so
                          >feel  free to throw your beer
                          bottles at will.  I expect differences in
                          >opinion.

                          >Thank
                          you very much.


                          Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
                          value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff.  I remember the guy who wrote
                          the original documentation for the original IBM PC.  They gave him the
                          very first PC ever made to write it on.  I asked what happened to that
                          machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
                          replaced it with a newer model.  Can you imagine the value of the very
                          first IBM PC?  I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
                          after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

                          There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors.  They fiercely defend
                          the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made.  I'm not a collector
                          myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
                          has come since.  I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
                          mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
                          viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs.  It was supposed to run
                          IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware.  That particular product
                          line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
                          the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
                          Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
                          get.  So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
                          chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
                          PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
                          year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
                          Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


                          Mark


                          --

                          From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                          Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                          Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                          For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                            "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                        • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                          In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM, ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                            In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                            "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                            >>>> Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                            >
                            >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think. The original IBM
                            >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                            >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers". The book
                            >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                            >

                            My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                            IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful
                            computer introduction ever. IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                            275,000 over 5 years for the PC. They had about 500,000 sold before it
                            was even officially announced. And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                            >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                            >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                            >
                            >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                            >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                            >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                            >anniversary.

                            I agree. Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                            original shipping box, never used. It had been in a computer dealer's
                            storage for about 15 years. That I was willing to go as high as $150
                            before I gave up. At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                            looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                            just plain nuts. ;-)

                            Mark


                            --

                            From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                            Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                            Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                            For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                            "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
                          • Michael Nadeau
                            ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful computer
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                              >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM
                              PC?
                              >
                              >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might
                              think.  The original IBM
                              >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about
                              $50-$150 depending on condition,
                              >according to Mike Nadeau's book
                              "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                              >is a year or two old, but
                              the price is fairly steady.
                              >

                              My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                              IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                              computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                              275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                              was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.

                              ---
                              For the 15th anniversary issue of BYTE, we were interviewing one of the original designers of the first PC when he asked, "would you like us to send you the prototype? It's in a closet around here somewhere." We got the prototype a short time later. It was just the motherboard, quite dusty. If you have the September 1990 issue, you can see a couple of photos on pages 416 and 417.
                               
                              --Mike
                            • Evan
                              I m confused. Do mean THE original as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM s first microcomputer long before
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                 
                                If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                   "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                >>>>  Can you
                                imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                >
                                >We certainly can,
                                and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                >PC - aka the
                                Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                >according to
                                Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                >is a year
                                or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                >

                                My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and
                                elsewhere in x86-land,
                                >still consider themselves "users" more than
                                "collectors".
                                >
                                >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying
                                any more than about $50
                                >for in great condition - might be considered
                                really vintage and
                                >collectible in another couple of years for its
                                20th
                                >anniversary.

                                I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                Mark


                                --

                                From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                  "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                              • Bob Applegate
                                The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk. BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the spelling
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                  The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                                   
                                  BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                                  spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                                  Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                                  west doing something.
                                   
                                  Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                                  directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                   
                                  Bob
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Evan
                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                  I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                   
                                  If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                  From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                  To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                  In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                     "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                  >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                  >
                                  >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                  >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                  >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                  >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                  >

                                  My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                  IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                  computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                  275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                  was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                  >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                                  >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                                  >
                                  >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                                  >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                                  >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                                  >anniversary.

                                  I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                  original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                  storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                  before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                  looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                  just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                  Mark


                                  --

                                  From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                  Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                  Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                  For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                    "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                                • Evan
                                  ... probably share some of their experiences/knowledge. Very interesting! Speak up, people! ... It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                    >>> There are others on this list who worked directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                     
                                    Very interesting!  Speak up, people!
                                     
                                    Here's a story I wrote for the Feb. 2, 2004 issue of Computer Collector:
                                     
                                    -----------------------------------------------
                                     
                                    It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a screwdriver.

                                    David Bradley chose the former method for doing a warm reboot of IBM's original PC, and he did a lot more.

                                    "Early in '81, we were dealing with prototype software, prototype hardware, and as you would attempt to try things out it would hang up. We needed a faster way than turning the power off, waiting a moment, turning it back on. I stuffed a specific value in a location in memory and jumped to the reset vector," he explained, in an interview with Computer Collector today.

                                    But why'd he pick those three keys? "It's not as if somebody said 'we need you to pick out three keys to reboot the machine'," he explained. "Two of them had to be shift keys," since most of the IBM PC's memory was already spoken for. "I'm already tracking whether these four shift keys are up or down. So I picked Ctrl and Alt as the two newest, least used keys. Ctrl-Alt-Delete has a better mnemonic feel than Ctrl-Alt-Plus," he said.

                                    "The systems we had in the lab, it was easy to reset them, you just struck a screwdriver across a couple of contacts."

                                    For Bradley, now 55, it was hardly the highlight of his career. He graduated in 1971 from the University of Dayton (Ohio), the same year as Intel released the 4004 chip, and received his Ph.D. from Purdue in 1975, the year of MITS' Altair kit. "The first computer I ever used would have been a [IBM] 360," he said. He joined IBM in June 1975 and worked on the System/23 Datamaster in 1978 - IBM's first computer with a non-IBM processor. For the IBM PC, he wrote the entire BIOS. "I wrote virtually all of the code that's there with the exception of the cassette and the power-on self-test," he said.

                                    Had they known it'd last 20 years, some things would have been done differently. For example, "The interrupts on what's now called the ISA bus are positive-edge triggered and we should have made them negative. The consequence of that decision is it was impossible to share interrupts," he said.

                                    Bradley said he doesn't maintain a personal collection, but has owned various significant machines over the years. "For a while I had one of the original lab-built IBM PCs, but unfortunately in a move, I have no idea what happened to it. I may still have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 sitting around somewhere.


                                    From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Applegate
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:59 AM
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                    The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                                     
                                    BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                                    spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                                    Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                                    west doing something.
                                     
                                    Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                                    directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                     
                                    Bob
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Evan
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                    I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                     
                                    If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                    From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                    In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                       "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                    >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                    >
                                    >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                    >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                    >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                    >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                    >

                                    My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                    IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                    computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                    275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                    was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                    >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                                    >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                                    >
                                    >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                                    >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                                    >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                                    >anniversary.

                                    I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                    original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                    storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                    before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                    looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                    just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                    Mark


                                    --

                                    From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                    Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                    Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                    For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                      "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                                  • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                                    In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM, ... According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM,
                                      "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                      >I'm confused. Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or
                                      >do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer
                                      >long before the "PC" series?
                                      >
                                      >If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum --
                                      >like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters
                                      >in Armonk, NY.

                                      According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly
                                      line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what documentation it
                                      needed.

                                      Mark

                                      --

                                      From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                      Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                                      Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                      For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                      "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
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