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what is considered a vintage apple computer?

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  • billdeg@aol.com
    The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage MAC. And while we re at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any Amigas are not
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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      The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage MAC.
      And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any Amigas are not
      vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's will never be
      vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where each year a new set of
      machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage era ended for new machine models
      that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before 1985.

      That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however, I
      just don't call them "vintage".

      Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think not.

      And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so feel
      free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in opinion.

      Thank you very much.

      Bill

      In a message dated 7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      chrism3667@... writes:

      > in my opinion, vintage macs consist of the IIs and
      > earlier machines. Some would even balk at stuff that
      > late, but I would include the II, IIX, and IIFX in
      > that they represent Apples foray into color. Possibly
      > there were add on cards for the SE with which you
      > could drive a big juicy external color monitor (and
      > have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then again
      > the SE may have been released at the same time as the
      > II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell me
      > what HMMU stands for :D
    • Evan
      This topic has come up many, many, many times before on classiccmp and elsewhere. The debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let s PLEASE avoid
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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        This topic has come up many, many, many times before on classiccmp and elsewhere.
         
        The debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let's PLEASE avoid that here).  They generally result in a three-pronged agreement: 1., no arbitrary age limit ever works; 2., the computer must be obsolete; 3., it must have been technologically unique when it was new.
         
        So an Amiga or an original Mac meet both categories and are definitely vintage -- I'm quite surprised to hear that you feel otherwise.  An original IBM PC or a "luggable" computer would also qualify because of their uniqueness when new.  But I certainly agree with you about the majority of x86 stuff, except for original 8086 stuff (again, the "unique technology when it was new" category).
         

        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
        Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:38 PM
        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

        The last vintage Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage MAC.
        And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any Amigas are not
        vintage.  It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's will never be
        vintage computers.  There is no sliding time scale where each year a new set of
        machines becomes vintage.  In short, the vintage era ended for new machine models
        that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before 1985. 

        That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however, I
        just don't call them "vintage".

        Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday?  I think not.

        And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so feel
        free to throw your beer bottles at will.  I expect differences in opinion.

        Thank you very much.

        Bill

        In a message dated 7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        chrism3667@... writes:

        > in my opinion,
        vintage macs consist of the IIs and
        >  earlier machines. Some would
        even balk at stuff that
        >  late, but I would include the II, IIX, and
        IIFX in
        >  that they represent Apples foray into color.
        Possibly
        >  there were add on cards for the SE with which
        you
        >  could drive a big juicy external color monitor
        (and
        >  have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then
        again
        >  the SE may have been released at the same time as
        the
        >  II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell
        me
        >  what HMMU stands for :D
      • billdeg@aol.com
        Evan, I was only kidding around In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... it ... original
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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          Evan,
          I was only kidding around

          In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          evan947@... writes:

          > This topic has come up many, many, many times before on classiccmp and
          > elsewhere.
          >
          > The debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let's PLEASE
          > avoid that here). They generally result in a three-pronged agreement: 1.,
          > no arbitrary age limit ever works; 2., the computer must be obsolete; 3.,
          it
          > must have been technologically unique when it was new.
          >
          > So an Amiga or an original Mac meet both categories and are definitely
          > vintage -- I'm quite surprised to hear that you feel otherwise. An
          original
          > IBM PC or a "luggable" computer would also qualify because of their
          > uniqueness when new. But I certainly agree with you about the majority of
          > x86 stuff, except for original 8086 stuff (again, the "unique technology
          > when it was new" category).
        • Evan
          Oh! Wow, that s a relief. I didn t realize that you were joking at all. _____ From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com]
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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            Oh!  Wow, that's a relief.
             
            I didn't realize that you were joking at all.


            From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
            Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:44 PM
            To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

            Evan,
            I was only kidding around

            In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            evan947@... writes:

            > This topic has come up many, many, many times before on
            classiccmp and
            >  elsewhere.
            >  
            >  The
            debates are always heated and drag on for a long time (let's PLEASE
            >  avoid that here).  They generally result in a
            three-pronged agreement: 1.,
            >  no arbitrary age limit ever works;
            2., the computer must be obsolete; 3.,
            it
            >  must have been
            technologically unique when it was new.
            >  
            >  So an
            Amiga or an original Mac meet both categories and are definitely
            vintage -- I'm quite surprised to hear that you feel otherwise.  An
            original
            >  IBM PC or a "luggable" computer would also qualify
            because of their
            >  uniqueness when new.  But I certainly agree
            with you about the majority of
            >  x86 stuff, except for original 8086
            stuff (again, the "unique technology
            >  when it was new"
            category).
          • Jim Scheef
            Bill and all, Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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              Bill and all,

              Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I
              know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is vintage or
              not is immaterial to whether it is collectible or not. IOW, you're both
              right!

              As to the 1987 Sundance becoming vintage... In CT a car becomes vintage on
              it's 25th birthday. The state does not issue 'classic' plates for 25 year old
              Ferraris. If the car is 25 years or older, it is 'vintage' regardless of it's
              pedigree. While I tend to agree that there will never be a "Sundance Owners
              Club", you never know!

              Jim


              --- billdeg@... wrote:

              > The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage
              > MAC.
              > And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any Amigas are
              > not
              > vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's will never be
              > vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where each year a new
              > set of
              > machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage era ended for new machine
              > models
              > that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before 1985.
              >
              > That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however, I
              >
              > just don't call them "vintage".
              >
              > Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think not.
              >
              > And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so
              > feel
              > free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in opinion.
              >
              > Thank you very much.
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > In a message dated 7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              > chrism3667@... writes:
              >
              > > in my opinion, vintage macs consist of the IIs and
              > > earlier machines. Some would even balk at stuff that
              > > late, but I would include the II, IIX, and IIFX in
              > > that they represent Apples foray into color. Possibly
              > > there were add on cards for the SE with which you
              > > could drive a big juicy external color monitor (and
              > > have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then again
              > > the SE may have been released at the same time as the
              > > II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell me
              > > what HMMU stands for :D
              >
            • Evan
              Jim, read ahead in your MARCH messages: Bill says he was joking. :) _____ From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 30, 2005
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                Jim, read ahead in your MARCH messages: Bill says he was joking.   :)


                From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
                Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:55 AM
                To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                Bill and all,

                Are we about vintage or are we about COLLECTIBLE? Vintage is like porn, I
                know it when I see it and your mileage may vary. Whether a Mac is vintage or
                not is immaterial to whether it is collectible or not. IOW, you're both
                right!

                As to the 1987 Sundance becoming vintage... In CT a car becomes vintage on
                it's 25th birthday. The state does not issue 'classic' plates for 25 year old
                Ferraris. If the car is 25 years or older, it is 'vintage' regardless of it's
                pedigree. While I tend to agree that there will never be a "Sundance Owners
                Club", you never know!

                Jim


                --- billdeg@... wrote:

                > The last
                vintage Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
                >
                MAC.
                > And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                Amigas are
                > not
                > vintage.  It does not matter how many years
                go by, MAC's will never be
                > vintage computers.  There is no sliding
                time scale where each year a new
                > set of
                > machines becomes
                vintage.  In short, the vintage era ended for new machine
                > models
                > that were first released no later than 1987, and mostly before
                1985. 
                >
                > That does not mean that I don't save newer
                interesting computers however, I
                >
                > just don't call them
                "vintage".
                >
                > Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
                someday?  I think not.
                >
                > And for making such statements I am
                standing behind the chicken wire so
                > feel
                > free to throw your
                beer bottles at will.  I expect differences in opinion.
                >
                >
                Thank you very much.
                >
                > Bill
                >
                > In a message dated
                7/30/2005 7:38:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                > chrism3667@...
                writes:
                >
                > > in my opinion, vintage macs consist of the IIs
                and
                > >  earlier machines. Some would even balk at stuff
                that
                > >  late, but I would include the II, IIX, and IIFX
                in
                > >  that they represent Apples foray into color.
                Possibly
                > >  there were add on cards for the SE with which
                you
                > >  could drive a big juicy external color monitor
                (and
                > >  have the mono mini me mac alongside). But then
                again
                > >  the SE may have been released at the same time as
                the
                > >  II. And Ill give someone a dollar if they can tell
                me
                > >  what HMMU stands for :D
                >
              • billdeg@aol.com
                I apologize...My point was that it seemed to me that any discussion about Windows or MACs was a little outside of the bounds of the group. Andy...I would love
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                  I apologize...My point was that it seemed to me that any discussion about
                  Windows or MACs was a little outside of the bounds of the group.

                  Andy...I would love an Amiga if you're giving one away!

                  Bill
                  In a message dated 7/30/2005 9:49:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  evan947@... writes:

                  > Oh! Wow, that's a relief.
                  >
                  > I didn't realize that you were joking at all.
                • billdeg@aol.com
                  I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                    I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
                  • Evan
                    See, I don t know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they ve got a better definition ... because the one I gave just
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                      See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO* bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I gave just barely works.  The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
                       
                      *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.   ;)


                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                      I will never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
                    • Jim Scheef
                      Bill, Evan, all, Here s my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I m not changing. To me, vintage , in the context of computers, means something old
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 31, 2005
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                        Bill, Evan, all,

                        Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
                        me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
                        relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
                        unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
                        from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
                        believe it to be.

                        I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
                        'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
                        is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
                        200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
                        serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
                        and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
                        upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
                        problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
                        another story.

                        Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
                        introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
                        ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
                        the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
                        Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
                        software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
                        great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

                        So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
                        unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
                        beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
                        not really.

                        Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
                        their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
                        3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

                        Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

                        Jim

                        --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

                        > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I challenge anyone TO*
                        > bring it up again if they've got a better definition ... because the one I
                        > gave just barely works. The qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.
                        >
                        > *Also, if you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
                        > ;)
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                        > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple
                        > computer?
                        >
                        >
                        > I will never bring this topic up again! I am embarrassed.
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > * Visit your group "midatlanticretro
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
                        >
                        >
                        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        >
                        >
                        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Evan
                        ... Ugh, no no no no no. I agreed mostly until this sentence. For the purpose of our hobby, vintage implies being synonomous with collectible . No special
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                          >>> Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...
                           
                          Ugh, no no no no no.  I agreed mostly until this sentence.
                           
                          For the purpose of our hobby, "vintage" implies being synonomous with "collectible".  No special categories are needed; that is how we get David G.'s PDP-8 and Bill D.'s Commodore stuff and my Psion 1 into the same room and tell attendees it's all the same hobby.  Of course they're all different categories of computing technology, but equally "vintage".  It's just a matter of personal and subjective preferences.
                           
                          You're right that the Deskpro 386, PS/2, and even Windows NT were rather unique when new, but I don't believe they are obsolete enough.  Let's ask again in five or ten years.  :)
                           

                          From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef
                          Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:04 AM
                          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                          Bill, Evan, all,

                          Here's my vintage philosophy. You can only accept it as I'm not changing. To
                          me, "vintage", in the context of computers, means something "old" (already a
                          relative term), obsolete by "current" (another relative term) standards and
                          unique in some way (totally subjective) when it was new. (Yes, I'm borrowing
                          from Evan here.) There can be no fixed definition. Vintage is whatever you
                          believe it to be.

                          I apply 'vintage' to software as well as hardware. By my standards, there are
                          'vintage' versions of Windows. Any version of Windows running in "real" mode
                          is definitely 'vintage'. I once had Windows 3.0 running in real mode on an HP
                          200LX palmtop. This was really cool, but my stock 200LX is too slow for
                          serious use. A cottage industry grew up around the HP palmtops (95LX, 100LX
                          and 200LX) with all sorts of special software plus hardware memory and speed
                          upgrades that made runnning Windows almost feasible! Of course the next
                          problem was application software to run under real mode Windows, but that's
                          another story.

                          Now the HP palmtops are definitely vintage even though the 95LX was
                          introduced in 1991. Today the HP palmtops are just as vintage as their
                          ancestor, the HP-75C from 10 years earlier. The software vendors supporting
                          the HP palmtops were the same phenomenon as what grew up to support the Radio
                          Shack M100 in the 80's and no one would argue that the M100/M200 and the
                          software written for them are not vintage. [The M600 was so unique it is a
                          great example of how Tandy managed to shoot themselves in the foot.]

                          So is a Compaq Deskpro 386 vintage? Sure! It's old, it's obsolete and it was
                          unique when it was introduced! It's vintage status was quaranteed when Compaq
                          beat IBM to the marketplace with a 386-based PC. But is it collectible? No,
                          not really.

                          Next: Are IBM PS/2's vintage? Sure! The Microchannel architecture guarantees
                          their status as vintage for being IBM's biggest flop. What about Windows NT
                          3.1? It broke new ground on the PC with a design based on VMS.

                          Maybe we need a new category for "pioneer" computers made before 1980...

                          Jim

                          --- Evan <evan947@...> wrote:

                          > See, I don't know if you are kidding again ... but I
                          challenge anyone TO*
                          > bring it up again if they've got a better
                          definition ... because the one I
                          > gave just barely works.  The
                          qualifier: no years-based solutions allowed.

                          > *Also, if
                          you have a better solution, bring it up on classiccmp, not here.
                          >
                          ;)
                          >
                          >   _____ 
                          >
                          > From:
                          midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg@...
                          >
                          Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:29 AM
                          > To:
                          midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is
                          considered a vintage apple
                          > computer?
                          >
                          >
                          > I will
                          never bring this topic up again!  I am embarrassed.
                          >
                          >
                          >   _____ 
                          >
                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          >
                          >
                          >      
                          >
                          *      Visit your group "midatlanticretro
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro> " on the web.
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >  midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          <mailto:midatlanticretro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          >  
                          >
                          > *      Your use
                          of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                          > <
                          href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                          >
                          >
                          >   _____ 
                          >
                          >
                          >

                        • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                          In , on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM, ... Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great value, I wouldn t
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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                            In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
                            billdeg@... said:



                            >The last vintage Apple was the IIGS. There is no such thing as a vintage
                            >MAC. And while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                            >Amigas are not vintage. It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
                            >will never be vintage computers. There is no sliding time scale where
                            >each year a new set of machines becomes vintage. In short, the vintage
                            >era ended for new machine models that were first released no later than
                            >1987, and mostly before 1985.

                            >That does not mean that I don't save newer interesting computers however,
                            >I just don't call them "vintage".

                            >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car someday? I think
                            >not.

                            >And for making such statements I am standing behind the chicken wire so
                            >feel free to throw your beer bottles at will. I expect differences in
                            >opinion.

                            >Thank you very much.


                            Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
                            value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff. I remember the guy who wrote
                            the original documentation for the original IBM PC. They gave him the
                            very first PC ever made to write it on. I asked what happened to that
                            machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
                            replaced it with a newer model. Can you imagine the value of the very
                            first IBM PC? I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
                            after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

                            There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors. They fiercely defend
                            the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made. I'm not a collector
                            myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
                            has come since. I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
                            mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
                            viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs. It was supposed to run
                            IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware. That particular product
                            line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
                            the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
                            Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
                            get. So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
                            chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
                            PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
                            year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
                            Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


                            Mark


                            --

                            From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                            Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                            Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                            For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                            "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
                          • Evan
                            Mark, ... We certainly can, and it s not high as you might think. The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Mark,
                               
                              >>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                               
                              We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition, according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                               
                              I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land, still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                               
                              An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50 for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and collectible in another couple of years for its 20th anniversary.
                               
                              - Evan
                               


                              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                              Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:04 PM
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                              In <f5.5675a1db.301d776f@...>, on 07/30/05 at 08:38 PM,
                                 billdeg@... said:



                              >The last vintage
                              Apple was the IIGS.  There is no such thing as a vintage
                              >MAC. And
                              while we're at it, the IBM AT or newer is not vintage, any
                              >Amigas are
                              not  vintage.  It does not matter how many years go by, MAC's
                              >will never be  vintage computers.  There is no sliding
                              time scale where
                              >each year a new set of  machines becomes
                              vintage.  In short, the vintage
                              >era ended for new machine
                              models  that were first released no later than
                              >1987, and mostly
                              before 1985. 

                              >That does not mean that I don't save newer
                              interesting computers however,
                              >I  just don't call them
                              "vintage".

                              >Will the 1987 Plymough Sundance become a vintage car
                              someday?  I think
                              >not.

                              >And for making such statements I
                              am standing behind the chicken wire so
                              >feel  free to throw your beer
                              bottles at will.  I expect differences in
                              >opinion.

                              >Thank
                              you very much.


                              Though I agree there that a lot of stuff out there will never be of great
                              value, I wouldn't discount all IBM stuff.  I remember the guy who wrote
                              the original documentation for the original IBM PC.  They gave him the
                              very first PC ever made to write it on.  I asked what happened to that
                              machine and he said he didn't know, but assumed it was junked when they
                              replaced it with a newer model.  Can you imagine the value of the very
                              first IBM PC?  I know you said AT or newer, but there are some machines
                              after that that also might be of interest to collectors.

                              There is a very active group of IBM PS/2 collectors.  They fiercely defend
                              the PS/2 as one of the best computers ever made.  I'm not a collector
                              myself, but those machines were definitely better built than anything that
                              has come since.  I'm about to acquire an IBM PowerPC PS/2 machine from the
                              mid-90s, which was when IBM and Apple were still collaborating on what was
                              viewed as the replacement for the Intel based PCs.  It was supposed to run
                              IBM OS/2 and Apple's MacOS on the same hardware.  That particular product
                              line pretty much died before it was birthed, so there are only a few of
                              the original CHRP machines around, and though IBM officially released OS/2
                              Warp Power PC, they buried it so deep that it was almost impossible to
                              get.  So you can readily locate PowerPC machines today (IBM still uses PPC
                              chips in its AIX, AS400 and I'm told some mainframes, Apple is still using
                              PowerPC in their Macs, until they switch to Intel sometime later this
                              year, also most game systems use PPC CPUs like the GameCube and the
                              Playstation), these original machines should be highly valued.


                              Mark


                              --

                              From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                              Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                              Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                              For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                            • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                              In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM, ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                >>>> Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                >
                                >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think. The original IBM
                                >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers". The book
                                >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                >

                                My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful
                                computer introduction ever. IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                275,000 over 5 years for the PC. They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                was even officially announced. And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                                >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                                >
                                >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                                >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                                >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                                >anniversary.

                                I agree. Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                original shipping box, never used. It had been in a computer dealer's
                                storage for about 15 years. That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                before I gave up. At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                just plain nuts. ;-)

                                Mark


                                --

                                From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                                Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
                              • Michael Nadeau
                                ... My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original IBM PC. The very first one. That puppy lead to the most successful computer
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM
                                  PC?
                                  >
                                  >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might
                                  think.  The original IBM
                                  >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about
                                  $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                  >according to Mike Nadeau's book
                                  "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                  >is a year or two old, but
                                  the price is fairly steady.
                                  >

                                  My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                  IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                  computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                  275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                  was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.

                                  ---
                                  For the 15th anniversary issue of BYTE, we were interviewing one of the original designers of the first PC when he asked, "would you like us to send you the prototype? It's in a closet around here somewhere." We got the prototype a short time later. It was just the motherboard, quite dusty. If you have the September 1990 issue, you can see a couple of photos on pages 416 and 417.
                                   
                                  --Mike
                                • Evan
                                  I m confused. Do mean THE original as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM s first microcomputer long before
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                    I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                     
                                    If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                    From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                    In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                       "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                    >>>>  Can you
                                    imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                    >
                                    >We certainly can,
                                    and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                    >PC - aka the
                                    Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                    >according to
                                    Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                    >is a year
                                    or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                    >

                                    My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                    IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                    computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                    275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                    was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                    >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and
                                    elsewhere in x86-land,
                                    >still consider themselves "users" more than
                                    "collectors".
                                    >
                                    >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying
                                    any more than about $50
                                    >for in great condition - might be considered
                                    really vintage and
                                    >collectible in another couple of years for its
                                    20th
                                    >anniversary.

                                    I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                    original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                    storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                    before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                    looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                    just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                    Mark


                                    --

                                    From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                    Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                    Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                    For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                      "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                                  • Bob Applegate
                                    The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk. BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the spelling
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                      The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                                       
                                      BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                                      spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                                      Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                                      west doing something.
                                       
                                      Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                                      directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                       
                                      Bob
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Evan
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                      I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                       
                                      If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                      From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                      In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                         "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                      >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                      >
                                      >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                      >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                      >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                      >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                      >

                                      My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                      IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                      computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                      275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                      was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                      >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                                      >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                                      >
                                      >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                                      >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                                      >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                                      >anniversary.

                                      I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                      original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                      storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                      before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                      looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                      just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                      Mark


                                      --

                                      From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                      Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                      Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                      For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                                    • Evan
                                      ... probably share some of their experiences/knowledge. Very interesting! Speak up, people! ... It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >>> There are others on this list who worked directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                         
                                        Very interesting!  Speak up, people!
                                         
                                        Here's a story I wrote for the Feb. 2, 2004 issue of Computer Collector:
                                         
                                        -----------------------------------------------
                                         
                                        It was either Ctrl-Alt-Del, or shorting two contacts with a screwdriver.

                                        David Bradley chose the former method for doing a warm reboot of IBM's original PC, and he did a lot more.

                                        "Early in '81, we were dealing with prototype software, prototype hardware, and as you would attempt to try things out it would hang up. We needed a faster way than turning the power off, waiting a moment, turning it back on. I stuffed a specific value in a location in memory and jumped to the reset vector," he explained, in an interview with Computer Collector today.

                                        But why'd he pick those three keys? "It's not as if somebody said 'we need you to pick out three keys to reboot the machine'," he explained. "Two of them had to be shift keys," since most of the IBM PC's memory was already spoken for. "I'm already tracking whether these four shift keys are up or down. So I picked Ctrl and Alt as the two newest, least used keys. Ctrl-Alt-Delete has a better mnemonic feel than Ctrl-Alt-Plus," he said.

                                        "The systems we had in the lab, it was easy to reset them, you just struck a screwdriver across a couple of contacts."

                                        For Bradley, now 55, it was hardly the highlight of his career. He graduated in 1971 from the University of Dayton (Ohio), the same year as Intel released the 4004 chip, and received his Ph.D. from Purdue in 1975, the year of MITS' Altair kit. "The first computer I ever used would have been a [IBM] 360," he said. He joined IBM in June 1975 and worked on the System/23 Datamaster in 1978 - IBM's first computer with a non-IBM processor. For the IBM PC, he wrote the entire BIOS. "I wrote virtually all of the code that's there with the exception of the cassette and the power-on self-test," he said.

                                        Had they known it'd last 20 years, some things would have been done differently. For example, "The interrupts on what's now called the ISA bus are positive-edge triggered and we should have made them negative. The consequence of that decision is it was impossible to share interrupts," he said.

                                        Bradley said he doesn't maintain a personal collection, but has owned various significant machines over the years. "For a while I had one of the original lab-built IBM PCs, but unfortunately in a move, I have no idea what happened to it. I may still have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 sitting around somewhere.


                                        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Applegate
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:59 AM
                                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                        The PC was designed in Boca Raton, not Armonk.
                                         
                                        BTW, one of the main architects of the original PC was a guy named Lew Eggebrecht (hope I got the
                                        spelling right).  He floated around southern NJ at high-tech companies after leaving IBM.  He was at
                                        Franklin Computer from around 83 to 84, then DGM&S in the late 80s.  The last I heard, he was out
                                        west doing something.
                                         
                                        Lew personally designed MUCH of the original PC.  There are others on this list who worked
                                        directly for him and can probably share some of their experiences/knowledge.
                                         
                                        Bob
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Evan
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:53 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                        I'm confused.  Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer long before the "PC" series?
                                         
                                        If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum -- like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters in Armonk, NY.


                                        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of madodel@...
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:09 AM
                                        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] what is considered a vintage apple computer?

                                        In, on 08/02/05 at 12:17 AM,
                                           "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                        >>>>  Can you imagine the value of the very first IBM PC?
                                        >
                                        >We certainly can, and it's not high as you might think.  The original IBM
                                        >PC - aka the Model 5150 - is worth about $50-$150 depending on condition,
                                        >according to Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers".  The book
                                        >is a year or two old, but the price is fairly steady.
                                        >

                                        My point was not that it was an original IBM PC, but it was THE original
                                        IBM PC. The very first one.  That puppy lead to the most successful
                                        computer introduction ever.  IBM had predicted a total life sales of about
                                        275,000 over 5 years for the PC.  They had about 500,000 sold before it
                                        was even officially announced.  And now IBM is out of the PC business.


                                        >I believe most people in the PS/2 universe, and elsewhere in x86-land,
                                        >still consider themselves "users" more than "collectors".
                                        >
                                        >An original PS/2 - which I hope you're not paying any more than about $50
                                        >for in great condition - might be considered really vintage and
                                        >collectible in another couple of years for its 20th
                                        >anniversary.

                                        I agree.  Though there was just a model 55SX on eBay that was still in the
                                        original shipping box, never used.  It had been in a computer dealer's
                                        storage for about 15 years.  That I was willing to go as high as $150
                                        before I gave up.  At $150 I thought it was way too high, however I'm
                                        looking for vintage PS/2's for a specific reason, but some collectors are
                                        just plain nuts. ;-) 

                                        Mark


                                        --

                                        From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                        Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005  http://www.warpstock.org
                                        Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                        For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                          "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself.   That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938

                                      • madodel@ptdprolog.net
                                        In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM, ... According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In, on 08/02/05 at 08:53 AM,
                                          "Evan" <evan947@...> said:



                                          >I'm confused. Do mean "THE original" as in IBM PC, serial number 1, or
                                          >do you mean a machine like the 5100, which was IBM's first microcomputer
                                          >long before the "PC" series?
                                          >
                                          >If it's the former, serial number 1, then it should reside in a museum --
                                          >like ours, since we'll be the nearest computer museum to IBM headquarters
                                          >in Armonk, NY.

                                          According to David Both, it was the very first IBM PC off the assembly
                                          line. They gave it to him so he could figure out what documentation it
                                          needed.

                                          Mark

                                          --

                                          From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                          Warpstock 2005, Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6 - 9, 2005 http://www.warpstock.org
                                          Warpstock Europe 2005, Dresden, Germany, Nov. 18-20 http://www.warpstock.net

                                          For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org

                                          "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
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