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Anyone using vintage logic chips

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  • john_apw
    Just curious... EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits: 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I m wondering if anyone is
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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      Just curious...

      EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:

      1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I'm
      wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded
      systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO,
      SIO, DART, etc).

      2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs?

      3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs? If so what
      types?


      If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building
      logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current
      applications, for what kinds of uses/applications?


      -JohnM
    • Bob Grieb
      John,     I recently designed a plug-in board for an old Z80-based computer that allows it to talk to a compact flash card.  My board also used an Intel
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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        John,

            I recently designed a plug-in board for an old Z80-based computer
        that allows it to talk to a compact flash card.  My board also used an Intel
        8251A SIO chip (which is an old part) because that's what some existing
        software expected.  I also erase and program 27C64 and 27C256
        EPROM chips regularly for this same project.  Luckily, I already
        have enough for my own needs.  I would think anyone who does a lot
        of repair work on older systems would want a supply of the older chips
        that were used in them, although I guess it's pretty easy to steal them from a spare non-working computer.

             Bob Grieb

        --- On Mon, 10/13/08, john_apw <infomagician@...> wrote:
        From: john_apw <infomagician@...>
        Subject: [midatlanticretro] Anyone using vintage logic chips
        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 8:00 PM

        Just curious...

        EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:

        1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I'm
        wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded
        systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO,
        SIO, DART, etc).

        2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs?

        3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs? If so what
        types?

        If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building
        logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current
        applications, for what kinds of uses/applications?

        -JohnM


      • Sridhar Ayengar
        ... Up until a few years ago, I was writing software for in-house-developed motion control systems on 6502s. Peace... Sridhar
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 14, 2008
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          john_apw wrote:
          > Just curious...
          >
          > EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:
          >
          > 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I'm
          > wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded
          > systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO,
          > SIO, DART, etc).

          Up until a few years ago, I was writing software for in-house-developed
          motion control systems on 6502s.

          Peace... Sridhar
        • Dan Roganti
          john_apw wrote: Just curious... EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits: 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I m wondering if
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 14, 2008
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            john_apw wrote:
            Just curious... 
            
            EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits: 
            
            1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically, I'm 
            wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded 
            systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO, 
            SIO, DART, etc).  
            
            2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs? 
            
            3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs? If so what 
            types? 
            
            
            If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building 
            logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current 
            applications, for what kinds of uses/applications? 
            
              
            John,

            I live and breath hardware here, from whatever I get my hands on.
            After getting RIF'd from Lucent, which was always state of the art, I even live it more at the new diggs.
            At work now, it's mainly rebuilding any arcade machines, from as old as the 70's.(some even older)
            All the digital and electronics from when it was new to me back in school.
            While at home, it's mainly a hobby with designing with this old hardware.

            I think there's few people outside user groups like this that appreciate designing with old hardware.
            Sometimes when I talk to guys at the computer stores, they say 'what for' ?
            They're always into building game machines with quad core cpu's -- although I like one too :)
            Unless it's something to do with new computers, they don't seem to spend much time beyond that.

            One other reason is something that comes from the days at school, 'Designing within Constraints'
            I'm sure you remember that you always needed to build a design that met certain restrictions.
            Whether it was maximum size, maximum power, limit the chip count, limit the cost.

            Well, I find it challenging in this hobby to add one other constraint, 'Limit the Technology'
            Ask any of today's college graduates to design something with only 70's hardware --original and not some replica --
            They probably haven't touched anything other than a FPGA.-with exception to Bill D's class at Univ. Delaware
            The reason I pick this generation, personally, is this was the decade of the microcomputer chip.
            I started in school designing with tubes and finished with microcomputer design, not many kids experience that anymore.
            So I think it's good to show what was actually possible then to solve problems with the early digital hardware.


            =Dan
            [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/   ]


          • mejeep_ferret
            ... Sigh ... I had intended to breadboard lotsa such things and still have the parts in very pretty AT&T antistatic boxes (remember when RAM was DIPS and cost
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 14, 2008
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              > Just curious... excluding SBCs that re-create the old kits
              > Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets ...
              > like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO, SIO, DART, etc)

              Sigh ... I had intended to breadboard lotsa such things and still have
              the parts in very pretty AT&T antistatic boxes (remember when RAM was
              DIPS and cost enough to warrant pretty packaging?)

              It turns out that I've perpetually underestimate the time & effort
              required, and I enjoy the research and paper-designing and "thought
              experiments" a lot more than the grunt work. I'm rarely around folks
              like you with the "just do it" attitude for rapid prototyping and
              acceptance of failure/eruliaf/releasing-the-magic-smoke.

              There's also the annoying tradeoff that just learning more about
              software engineering & programming takes a lot of time & effort too,
              and that's rather worthy since it's my bread & butter.

              re: SBCs: I still plan to use the SBCs as launching points for the
              peripherals since I/O arch is my primary interest.

              > At work now, it's mainly rebuilding any arcade machines

              Ummm, where is that? any web site/URL?
              I ask because some friends are into that,
              mostly pinball machines!

              > I think there's few people outside user groups like this
              > that appreciate designing with old hardware.

              That's 'cause all the surplus stores are gone and the boneyards are
              gone. I learned a LOT from pulling apart old appliances and the
              computer graveyard at college, particulary good CONSTRUCTION and
              designing for maintenance. Things that are mostly lost on today's
              disposable appliances (although SOME server-grade things have hinged
              power supplies and built-in diagnostics, most don't).

              > Well, I find it challenging in this hobby
              > to add one other constraint, 'Limit the Technology'

              I can think of several other arenas that limit the technology. Yacht
              racing's class-rules place limits on modifications and technologies,
              which is why the America's Cup became more of a court contest than a
              race on the water as the Aussies and USA kept bending the rules to
              allow new tech. "Classic Car" buffs might agree with you.

              > ... I started in school designing with tubes
              > and finished with microcomputer design,
              > not many kids experience that anymore.

              Sadly, I was too late to ever touch a tube in college. The EE
              curriculum was already struggling to fit into only 4 years. That's
              why you'd love the neonixie-l yahoo group: they're rediscovering tubes
              for the logic as well as the displays (nixie, gas discharge,
              fluorescent, CRT, even magic eye tubes).

              My affection for the Z80 is because you can still "see" all the major
              signals on the pins since ALL ram and I/O is external, thus the logic
              analyzers that just clip ONTO the chip to see most of what it's doing.
              Ya, I have discovered the pleasure of the PIC-18 but TOO MUCH IS
              INTERNAL MAGIC without any pins to /really see what's happening/. I
              logged many happy hours at the IBM 1130 front panel poking around
              since that had indicators for many (but not all) the registers.
              That's MY idea of machine control! It was hard adjusting to machines
              without any way to really "see" the registers. Virtual front panels
              and ROM monitors are sure easier to use, but it's just not as "real",
              not touchy-feely.
            • Stan Brewer
              Who needs chips when you can build a computer out of relays? http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/08/relay_computer_two.html I still want to know if anybody
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 14, 2008
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                Who needs chips when you can build a computer out of relays?

                http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/08/relay_computer_two.html

                I still want to know if anybody knows of a computer built using the 4004.

                                                   Stan (Still itching....)

                mejeep_ferret wrote:

                > Just curious... excluding SBCs that re-create the old kits
                > Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets ...
                > like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO, SIO, DART, etc)

                Sigh ... I had intended to breadboard lotsa such things and still have
                the parts in very pretty AT&T antistatic boxes (remember when RAM was
                DIPS and cost enough to warrant pretty packaging?)

                It turns out that I've perpetually underestimate the time & effort
                required, and I enjoy the research and paper-designing and "thought
                experiments" a lot more than the grunt work. I'm rarely around folks
                like you with the "just do it" attitude for rapid prototyping and
                acceptance of failure/eruliaf/ releasing- the-magic- smoke.

                There's also the annoying tradeoff that just learning more about
                software engineering & programming takes a lot of time & effort too,
                and that's rather worthy since it's my bread & butter.

                re: SBCs: I still plan to use the SBCs as launching points for the
                peripherals since I/O arch is my primary interest.

                > At work now, it's mainly rebuilding any arcade machines

                Ummm, where is that? any web site/URL?
                I ask because some friends are into that,
                mostly pinball machines!

                > I think there's few people outside user groups like this
                > that appreciate designing with old hardware.

                That's 'cause all the surplus stores are gone and the boneyards are
                gone. I learned a LOT from pulling apart old appliances and the
                computer graveyard at college, particulary good CONSTRUCTION and
                designing for maintenance. Things that are mostly lost on today's
                disposable appliances (although SOME server-grade things have hinged
                power supplies and built-in diagnostics, most don't).

                > Well, I find it challenging in this hobby
                > to add one other constraint, 'Limit the Technology'

                I can think of several other arenas that limit the technology. Yacht
                racing's class-rules place limits on modifications and technologies,
                which is why the America's Cup became more of a court contest than a
                race on the water as the Aussies and USA kept bending the rules to
                allow new tech. "Classic Car" buffs might agree with you.

                > ... I started in school designing with tubes
                > and finished with microcomputer design,
                > not many kids experience that anymore.

                Sadly, I was too late to ever touch a tube in college. The EE
                curriculum was already struggling to fit into only 4 years. That's
                why you'd love the neonixie-l yahoo group: they're rediscovering tubes
                for the logic as well as the displays (nixie, gas discharge,
                fluorescent, CRT, even magic eye tubes).

                My affection for the Z80 is because you can still "see" all the major
                signals on the pins since ALL ram and I/O is external, thus the logic
                analyzers that just clip ONTO the chip to see most of what it's doing.
                Ya, I have discovered the pleasure of the PIC-18 but TOO MUCH IS
                INTERNAL MAGIC without any pins to /really see what's happening/. I
                logged many happy hours at the IBM 1130 front panel poking around
                since that had indicators for many (but not all) the registers.
                That's MY idea of machine control! It was hard adjusting to machines
                without any way to really "see" the registers. Virtual front panels
                and ROM monitors are sure easier to use, but it's just not as "real",
                not touchy-feely.

              • Herb Johnson
                ... See the links below. But it s not hard to make up a Z80 chip set design from SCRATCH. Zilog and other data books, previous Z80 designs, all provide the
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                  "john_apw" <infomagician@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:
                  >
                  > 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage [Z80] chipsets?

                  See the links below. But it's not hard to make up a Z80 chip set
                  design from SCRATCH. Zilog and other data books, previous Z80 designs,
                  all provide the information. YOu can still get wire-wrap sockets and
                  wire and tools. But if you want a PC board and (maybe) the parts as a
                  kit, one or two are still available.

                  But why exclude "recreations"? What is the difference between a
                  microKIM single board 6502, and some "new design" version using pretty
                  much the *same chips*? My search saw one old Z80 kit on eBay - they do
                  turn up, and if you only need one, that serves your purpose.

                  > 2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs?

                  That's a plug-in for the Intel 8088. So, use an 8088 design. I doubt
                  there are any current 8088 kits out there, but do a Google search.

                  > 3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs?
                  > If so what types?

                  Too vague a question. There are DECADES worth of software ROM monitors
                  for most any processor - check the Web, buy old books and magazines
                  from the era. ROMs smaller and earlier than 2732's are not compatible
                  with most ROM-burning products. Specifics depend on the design, the
                  processor.

                  > If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building
                  > logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current
                  > applications, for what kinds of uses/applications?
                  >
                  > -JohnM
                  >

                  Um, there ARE no current applications for older chipsets. (I take
                  "applications" as a commercial use, not "I can still use a Z80 to...")
                  Today's applications are satisfied by NEW chipsets. That's kinda what
                  "vintage" chipsets refer to, and why current kits for them are hard to
                  find.

                  It's simpler to answer John's questions from the other end. There are
                  plenty of single-processor boards and kits out there, many under $100.
                  Most use procs with lots of I/0 and functions on-chip. Since vintage
                  chip sets need several chips to do the same thing, kits for them are
                  at a price disadvantage. New products using vintage chip sets are just
                  not profitable for that reason. (One of the exhibits at VCF-E this
                  year included OLD products with Z80's in them.)

                  So the only "market" or "application" for vintage single-boards IS the
                  "vintage" buyer. Most of the sellers are working essentially for free,
                  as a courtesy to others. So I don't understand restricting your
                  interest to "non-recreations"; why not support these sellers?

                  Otherwise, your question seems to be "what's new with old Z80 chips?"
                  The answer is "not much but non-zero. Check the Web".

                  HErb Johnson
                  retrotechnology.com

                  --------------------

                  Google search "Z80 single board" yields two Z80 kits available today:

                  http://www.quasarelectronics.com/sc01.htm

                  SX-I - Z80 Single Board Computer Kit, 75 British Pounds with VAT.
                  Maybe they have a US importer.

                  http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/about

                  This is the N8VEM, a Z80 board on a EuroBUs connector, designed by
                  Andrew Lynch. He's done work to revive interest in a couple of S-100
                  systems including Vector Graphic. He sells the PC board for $15-$20,
                  parts are not hard to find. There's lot of talk about compatible
                  boards and add-ons. The link is to a discussion group. READ THAT SITE
                  AND ASK YOUR QUESTIONS THERE.
                • john_apw
                  There have been 6 or 7 replies to my inquiry, and rather than address each individually, I m replying to my own original message in order to avoid the thread
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                    There have been 6 or 7 replies to my inquiry, and rather than address
                    each individually, I'm replying to my own original message in order
                    to avoid the thread meandering off in to other areas...

                    First of all, thanks for the feedback. I was asking "just out of
                    curiosity", and the replies answered my curiosity.

                    I find it interesting to see that there ARE some people building new
                    solutions with the older chipsets, despite the availability of newer
                    technologies and the diferential in capabilities and cost. And I'm
                    quite pleased to see that they're being used in the kinds of
                    applications that I'd want to build myself if I were more
                    knowledgeable in designing hardware. But I must say, "Very cool!" You
                    have my support and admiration!


                    I'd like to specifically mention to Herb: I value your detailed reply
                    and the information you provided, but I'm sorry to see that I wasn't
                    clear enough to prevent my question from being misunderstood. I was
                    simply asking out of curiosity if anyone was using vintage chipsets,
                    and if so, which ones and for what kinds of applications.

                    Your reply is clear about evaluating whether or not to use old or new
                    technologies, and whether to use an original kit or a re-creation,
                    but that's far more than the scope of what I was asking. I was really
                    just inquiring, and not making some kind of argument.

                    But I have no doubt that anyone thinking about the commercial and
                    economic sense of such a project could certainly benefit from your
                    thoughts. I do appreciate them in their own context.



                    OK, so why my question? To get some sense of what to do with my
                    collection of vintage chips.

                    It would seem that my good-sized collection of older TTL DIPs and CPU
                    support chips will probably never see the work that they were
                    designed and intended for, and will wind up as some kind of art
                    exhibit somewhere... If anyone making movies wants to use a small
                    stockpile of chips as props, keep me in mind. LOL!

                    Thanks all!
                    -JohnM



                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "john_apw"
                    <infomagician@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just curious...
                    >
                    > EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:
                    >
                    > 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically,
                    I'm
                    > wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded
                    > systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO,
                    > SIO, DART, etc).
                    >
                    > 2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs?
                    >
                    > 3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs? If so
                    what
                    > types?
                    >
                    >
                    > If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building
                    > logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current
                    > applications, for what kinds of uses/applications?
                    >
                    >
                    > -JohnM
                    >
                  • Bill Dromgoole
                    I think the vintage chips are a valuable resource for repair and restoration of vintage computers. When repairing a 1977 computer I would rather use a 1977
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                      I think the vintage chips are a valuable resource for repair and restoration
                      of vintage computers.
                      When repairing a 1977 computer I would rather use a 1977 chip than a 1995
                      chip just for authenticity.

                      So don't give up on the chips being used for their original design purpose.

                      If you don't want them, maybe you would consider them for donation to MARCH!
                      for use in repairs etc.
                      Or offer them for sale to MARCH! members.

                      Bill #3
                      ----- Original Message -----


                      From: "john_apw" <infomagician@...>
                      To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 2:20 PM
                      Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Anyone using vintage logic chips


                      >
                      > Your reply is clear about evaluating whether or not to use old or new
                      > technologies, and whether to use an original kit or a re-creation,
                      > but that's far more than the scope of what I was asking. I was really
                      > just inquiring, and not making some kind of argument.
                      >
                      > But I have no doubt that anyone thinking about the commercial and
                      > economic sense of such a project could certainly benefit from your
                      > thoughts. I do appreciate them in their own context.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > OK, so why my question? To get some sense of what to do with my
                      > collection of vintage chips.
                      >
                      > It would seem that my good-sized collection of older TTL DIPs and CPU
                      > support chips will probably never see the work that they were
                      > designed and intended for, and will wind up as some kind of art
                      > exhibit somewhere... If anyone making movies wants to use a small
                      > stockpile of chips as props, keep me in mind. LOL!
                      >
                      > Thanks all!
                      > -JohnM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "john_apw"
                      > <infomagician@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Just curious...
                      >>
                      >> EXcluding SBCs that re-create the old kits:
                      >>
                      >> 1. Is anyone doing anything with vintage chipsets? Specifically,
                      > I'm
                      >> wondering if anyone is creating standalone logic boards/embedded
                      >> systems that use things like Zilog Z80s and peripheral chips (PIO,
                      >> SIO, DART, etc).
                      >>
                      >> 2. Is anyone doing anything with NEC V20 CPUs?
                      >>
                      >> 3. Is anyone creating software and burning ROMs or EPROMs? If so
                      > what
                      >> types?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> If anyone IS doing these things, or is currently building
                      >> logic/control boards using the older chipsets for any current
                      >> applications, for what kinds of uses/applications?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -JohnM
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... MARCH! members. We re not Yahoo! ... so why the exclamation point?
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                        >>> for donation to MARCH! for use in repairs etc. Or offer them for sale to
                        MARCH! members.

                        We're not "Yahoo!" ... so why the exclamation point?
                      • Bill Dromgoole
                        Sorry for the ! I will refrain in the future. Bill #3 ... From: Evan Koblentz To: Sent: Thursday, October
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                          Sorry for the !

                          I will refrain in the future.

                          Bill #3
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
                          To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:09 PM
                          Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: Anyone using vintage logic chips


                          >>>> for donation to MARCH! for use in repairs etc. Or offer them for sale
                          >>>> to
                          > MARCH! members.
                          >
                          > We're not "Yahoo!" ... so why the exclamation point?
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Herb Johnson
                          ... restoration ... 1995 ... purpose. ... to MARCH! ... I didn t realize the original poster simply had some vintage chips and was looking for individuals
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 16, 2008
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                            "Bill Dromgoole" <drummy@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think the vintage chips are a valuable resource for repair and
                            restoration
                            > of vintage computers.
                            > When repairing a 1977 computer I would rather use a 1977 chip than a
                            1995
                            > chip just for authenticity.
                            >
                            > So don't give up on the chips being used for their original design
                            purpose.
                            >
                            > If you don't want them, maybe you would consider them for donation
                            to MARCH!
                            > for use in repairs etc.
                            > Or offer them for sale to MARCH! members.

                            I didn't realize the original poster simply had some "vintage chips"
                            and was looking for individuals who might find them useful. (I thought
                            he was looking to build a Z80 board from scratch.) By all means,
                            Bill's reply above is correct. In addition, some old chips are not
                            available today.

                            There are other venues where you might find someone interested.
                            Consider making a list, note your zip code, and let people in MARCH
                            know about that list.

                            Herb Johnson
                            retrotechnology.com
                          • john_apw
                            OK, from the responses I got here (thank you all!), it seems that the effort may be appreciated after all. Worst case, I can put them up on eBay... Rough
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                              OK, from the responses I got here (thank you all!), it seems that the
                              effort may be appreciated after all. Worst case, I can put them up on
                              eBay...

                              Rough count: I have between 400 and 500 sticks of all kinds of chips.
                              Also have more than 50 sticks of single-row header pin/sockets (3
                              sections per stick, roughly 50 pin/sockets per section), and odd
                              assortments of transistors. Even have a handful of SIPPs boards!

                              I'll inventory the lot and post it for the list but don't hold your
                              breath - it's going to take more than a few Sunday football games to
                              get this done!

                              -JohnM


                              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Johnson"
                              <herbjohnson@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "Bill Dromgoole" <drummy@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think the vintage chips are a valuable resource for repair and
                              > restoration
                              > > of vintage computers.
                              > > When repairing a 1977 computer I would rather use a 1977 chip
                              than a
                              > 1995
                              > > chip just for authenticity.
                              > >
                              > > So don't give up on the chips being used for their original design
                              > purpose.
                              > >
                              > > If you don't want them, maybe you would consider them for donation
                              > to MARCH!
                              > > for use in repairs etc.
                              > > Or offer them for sale to MARCH! members.
                              >
                              > I didn't realize the original poster simply had some "vintage chips"
                              > and was looking for individuals who might find them useful. (I
                              thought
                              > he was looking to build a Z80 board from scratch.) By all means,
                              > Bill's reply above is correct. In addition, some old chips are not
                              > available today.
                              >
                              > There are other venues where you might find someone interested.
                              > Consider making a list, note your zip code, and let people in MARCH
                              > know about that list.
                              >
                              > Herb Johnson
                              > retrotechnology.com
                              >
                            • Bill Degnan
                              John, One evening my wife and I went through a few boxes of chips. First I sorted them and then I called out the chip ID, she wrote it down. Once you get
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                John,
                                One evening my wife and I went through a few boxes of chips. First I
                                sorted them and then I called out the chip ID, she wrote it down. Once you
                                get rolling it goes quickly.
                                Bill

                                -------- Original Message --------
                                > From: "john_apw" <infomagician@...>
                                > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:31 PM
                                > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Anyone using vintage logic chips
                                >
                                > OK, from the responses I got here (thank you all!), it seems that the
                                > effort may be appreciated after all. Worst case, I can put them up on
                                > eBay...
                                >
                                > Rough count: I have between 400 and 500 sticks of all kinds of chips.
                                > Also have more than 50 sticks of single-row header pin/sockets (3
                                > sections per stick, roughly 50 pin/sockets per section), and odd
                                > assortments of transistors. Even have a handful of SIPPs boards!
                                >
                                > I'll inventory the lot and post it for the list but don't hold your
                                > breath - it's going to take more than a few Sunday football games to
                                > get this done!
                                >
                                > -JohnM
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Johnson"
                                > <herbjohnson@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > "Bill Dromgoole" <drummy@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I think the vintage chips are a valuable resource for repair and
                                > > restoration
                                > > > of vintage computers.
                                > > > When repairing a 1977 computer I would rather use a 1977 chip
                                > than a
                                > > 1995
                                > > > chip just for authenticity.
                                > > >
                                > > > So don't give up on the chips being used for their original design
                                > > purpose.
                                > > >
                                > > > If you don't want them, maybe you would consider them for donation
                                > > to MARCH!
                                > > > for use in repairs etc.
                                > > > Or offer them for sale to MARCH! members.
                                > >
                                > > I didn't realize the original poster simply had some "vintage chips"
                                > > and was looking for individuals who might find them useful. (I
                                > thought
                                > > he was looking to build a Z80 board from scratch.) By all means,
                                > > Bill's reply above is correct. In addition, some old chips are not
                                > > available today.
                                > >
                                > > There are other venues where you might find someone interested.
                                > > Consider making a list, note your zip code, and let people in MARCH
                                > > know about that list.
                                > >
                                > > Herb Johnson
                                > > retrotechnology.com
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Evan Koblentz
                                ... Then they watched ballet while eating skones and drinking tea.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                  >>> One evening my wife and I went through a few boxes of chips.

                                  Then they watched ballet while eating skones and drinking tea.
                                • john_apw
                                  Thanks for the encouragement, Bill. Please let your wife know that I ll need her help on Sunday afternoons. (LOL!) Seriously, I appreciate that having help
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                    Thanks for the encouragement, Bill. Please let your wife know that
                                    I'll need her help on Sunday afternoons. (LOL!)

                                    Seriously, I appreciate that having help will speed things up. I'll
                                    have to see if I can get my son to "volunteer"...

                                    My problem is that many chips have 2 or three numbers on them, so I
                                    have the additional step of having to look them up online. Well, I
                                    would anyway because of the info I want on hand about each...

                                    So far, it looks like my database fields will be:

                                    MFGR (
                                    Ident codes (initially, everything printed on the chip)
                                    Pin count (to help in identifying)
                                    Identifier (fill in after lookup)
                                    Description (after lookup)
                                    Qty on Hand (
                                    Value/MSRP (if found during lookup)
                                    DataSheet (hypertext link to online copy, if found)
                                    Notes (if anything special about the chip:
                                    eg, ceramic, part of larger chipset, etc.)


                                    I need magnifying visors to distinguish B from 8 and so on, so that
                                    will slow me down a bit.

                                    I'll keep you all posted on progress...

                                    -JohnM




                                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > John,
                                    > One evening my wife and I went through a few boxes of chips. First
                                    I
                                    > sorted them and then I called out the chip ID, she wrote it down.
                                    Once you
                                    > get rolling it goes quickly.
                                    > Bill
                                    >
                                    > -------- Original Message --------
                                    > > From: "john_apw" <infomagician@...>
                                    > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:31 PM
                                    > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Anyone using vintage logic chips
                                    > >
                                    > > OK, from the responses I got here (thank you all!), it seems that
                                    the
                                    > > effort may be appreciated after all. Worst case, I can put them
                                    up on
                                    > > eBay...
                                    > >
                                    > > Rough count: I have between 400 and 500 sticks of all kinds of
                                    chips.
                                    > > Also have more than 50 sticks of single-row header pin/sockets (3
                                    > > sections per stick, roughly 50 pin/sockets per section), and odd
                                    > > assortments of transistors. Even have a handful of SIPPs boards!
                                    > >
                                    > > I'll inventory the lot and post it for the list but don't hold
                                    your
                                    > > breath - it's going to take more than a few Sunday football games
                                    to
                                    > > get this done!
                                    > >
                                    > > -JohnM
                                    > >
                                  • Herb Johnson
                                    ... Your post is helpful, now we know you have *several thousand* chips (10 chips per tube X 100 tubes = 1000 chips). At another point, you might refine your
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                      "john_apw" <infomagician@...> wrote:

                                      > My problem is that many chips have 2 or three numbers on them, so I
                                      > have the additional step of having to look them up online. Well, I
                                      > would anyway because of the info I want on hand about each...

                                      > Rough count: I have between 400 and 500 sticks of all
                                      > kinds of chips. Also have more than 50 sticks of single-row
                                      > header pin/sockets (3 sections per stick, roughly 50
                                      > pin/sockets per section), and odd assortments of transistors.
                                      > Even have a handful of SIPPs boards!

                                      Your post is helpful, now we know you have *several thousand* chips
                                      (10 chips per tube X 100 tubes = 1000 chips). At another point, you
                                      might refine your general description but keep it short. "Several
                                      hundred TTL chips, 50 RAM/ROM/CPU type chips, 200 analog/regulators
                                      chips, 100 small transistors, 100 TO-3 transistors", like that by
                                      kind. ANY sort of refinement past "all kinds of chips" would be helpful.

                                      But it's clear you aren't selling a handful of chips one at a time.
                                      You want to sell tubes of chips, or the whole lot. And you've already
                                      suggested they are not of great value to you.

                                      Rather than for me to go on at length here, about how you might go
                                      about assessing this collection of chips you have; I suggest you find
                                      some person very familiar with what these chips are and how they
                                      function. Ask them privately for a little guidance as to what would be
                                      useful information to provide.

                                      Myself, I'd want to know chip model number and count, maybe brand,
                                      probably physical condition. THat's enough for common parts: for
                                      specific, odd items in quantity (like those SIPPS boards and
                                      "headers"), it's worth more description - provide a part number and
                                      brand or equivalent modern part if your part is too old to find on the
                                      Web. Mabye a photo. Don't bother with such detail for a dozen cheap
                                      parts. Again, you may need some informed guidance.

                                      But if you want my advice: don't create a plan for a lot of work, only
                                      to find it's too much work, and *nothing gets done* as a result.
                                      Partial results trump no results. Do a little, get some feedback, some
                                      specific advice...then move forward. COuld save you time and grief.

                                      Finally, you might contact Evan privately before posting a long list
                                      of chips here in this maillist, much less photos or a database
                                      "report". I"ve just not seen much of that kind of selling here, but
                                      Evan will inform you.

                                      Herb Johnson
                                      retrotechnology.com
                                    • Evan Koblentz
                                      ... and *nothing gets done* as a result. Partial results trump no results. Do a little, get some feedback, some specific advice...then move forward. COuld save
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                        >>> don't create a plan for a lot of work, only to find it's too much work,
                                        and *nothing gets done* as a result. Partial results trump no results. Do a
                                        little, get some feedback, some specific advice...then move forward. COuld
                                        save you time and grief.

                                        Good advice!

                                        >>> you might contact Evan privately before posting a long list of chips
                                        here in this maillist, much less photos or a database "report". I"ve just
                                        not seen much of that kind of selling here

                                        My answer is, "be prudent" .... Similar to Herb's advice, we'd rather all
                                        see fewer, more informative posts, vs. many posts with minor updates.

                                        But in general there's no problem with our members posting for sale / wanted
                                        / trade messages, as long as it's on-topic and all the pics/databases are
                                        hosted externally.

                                        Of course, if some newb (not John!) comes along JUST to sell things, and/or
                                        if people post ridiculous prices here, then I'll have a problem with it.
                                        (In the local Miata club, there's an unwritten rule that members are
                                        expected to offer a "club discount" to each other for car parts. I'm not
                                        saying that is a rule here in MARCH, but some people may decide individually
                                        that it's the right thing to do.)
                                      • john_apw
                                        Good suggestions, Herb, thanks! I won t be putting up any status reports unless I ve got significant progress, so I m giving myself till the New Year... Hey! I
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 20, 2008
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                                          Good suggestions, Herb, thanks!

                                          I won't be putting up any status reports unless I've got significant
                                          progress, so I'm giving myself till the New Year... Hey! I do have a
                                          life outside of vintage computers, you know! (Gasp!)

                                          -JohnM


                                          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Johnson"
                                          <herbjohnson@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > "john_apw" <infomagician@> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > My problem is that many chips have 2 or three numbers on them, so
                                          I
                                          > > have the additional step of having to look them up online. Well,
                                          I
                                          > > would anyway because of the info I want on hand about each...
                                          >
                                          > > Rough count: I have between 400 and 500 sticks of all
                                          > > kinds of chips. Also have more than 50 sticks of single-row
                                          > > header pin/sockets (3 sections per stick, roughly 50
                                          > > pin/sockets per section), and odd assortments of transistors.
                                          > > Even have a handful of SIPPs boards!
                                          >
                                          > Your post is helpful, now we know you have *several thousand* chips
                                          > (10 chips per tube X 100 tubes = 1000 chips). At another point, you
                                          > might refine your general description but keep it short. "Several
                                          > hundred TTL chips, 50 RAM/ROM/CPU type chips, 200 analog/regulators
                                          > chips, 100 small transistors, 100 TO-3 transistors", like that by
                                          > kind. ANY sort of refinement past "all kinds of chips" would be
                                          helpful.
                                          >
                                          > But it's clear you aren't selling a handful of chips one at a time.
                                          > You want to sell tubes of chips, or the whole lot. And you've
                                          already
                                          > suggested they are not of great value to you.
                                          >
                                          > Rather than for me to go on at length here, about how you might go
                                          > about assessing this collection of chips you have; I suggest you
                                          find
                                          > some person very familiar with what these chips are and how they
                                          > function. Ask them privately for a little guidance as to what would
                                          be
                                          > useful information to provide.
                                          >
                                          > Myself, I'd want to know chip model number and count, maybe brand,
                                          > probably physical condition. THat's enough for common parts: for
                                          > specific, odd items in quantity (like those SIPPS boards and
                                          > "headers"), it's worth more description - provide a part number and
                                          > brand or equivalent modern part if your part is too old to find on
                                          the
                                          > Web. Mabye a photo. Don't bother with such detail for a dozen cheap
                                          > parts. Again, you may need some informed guidance.
                                          >
                                          > But if you want my advice: don't create a plan for a lot of work,
                                          only
                                          > to find it's too much work, and *nothing gets done* as a result.
                                          > Partial results trump no results. Do a little, get some feedback,
                                          some
                                          > specific advice...then move forward. COuld save you time and grief.
                                          >
                                          > Finally, you might contact Evan privately before posting a long list
                                          > of chips here in this maillist, much less photos or a database
                                          > "report". I"ve just not seen much of that kind of selling here, but
                                          > Evan will inform you.
                                          >
                                          > Herb Johnson
                                          > retrotechnology.com
                                          >
                                        • Mike Willegal
                                          Just a comment here from someone who has built a replica 1977 Apple II era motherboard. Chips that are out of production and have been out of production for a
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 23, 2008
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                                            Just a comment here from someone who has built a replica 1977 Apple
                                            II era motherboard. Chips that are out of production and have been
                                            out of production for a while might have significant value. Common
                                            chips that were made in the millions, like DRAM, are less valuable
                                            than complex logic chips made in more modest quantities. My take is
                                            that most 74LSxx series chips have low value, since most of these
                                            chips seem to still be in production. Some folks may care about date
                                            codes, but I would consider that group of folks to be pretty tiny.
                                            74XX series chips may have more value, since they don't seem to be
                                            too readily available. Some chips are very hard to find to today.
                                            Examples include Signetics 25xx series and some relatively complex
                                            logic chips like keyboard decoders. If you have MM5740 keyboard
                                            decoders, let me know, because I can't find them anywhere. 8Txx
                                            series bus drivers/transceivers are scarce. Modern equivalents are
                                            available, but some folks would prefer the original oart number.

                                            Regards,
                                            Mike Willegal
                                            www.willegal.net
                                          • Bryan Pope
                                            ... 74XX are still readily available from Unicorn Electronics ( http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ ) nnd Jameco ( http://www.jameco.com/ ). Cheers, Bryan
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 23, 2008
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                                              Mike Willegal wrote:
                                              > Just a comment here from someone who has built a replica 1977 Apple
                                              > II era motherboard. Chips that are out of production and have been
                                              > out of production for a while might have significant value. Common
                                              > chips that were made in the millions, like DRAM, are less valuable
                                              > than complex logic chips made in more modest quantities. My take is
                                              > that most 74LSxx series chips have low value, since most of these
                                              > chips seem to still be in production. Some folks may care about date
                                              > codes, but I would consider that group of folks to be pretty tiny.
                                              > 74XX series chips may have more value, since they don't seem to be
                                              > too readily available. Some chips are very hard to find to today.
                                              >
                                              74XX are still readily available from Unicorn Electronics (
                                              http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ ) nnd Jameco ( http://www.jameco.com/ ).

                                              Cheers,

                                              Bryan

                                              > Examples include Signetics 25xx series and some relatively complex
                                              > logic chips like keyboard decoders. If you have MM5740 keyboard
                                              > decoders, let me know, because I can't find them anywhere. 8Txx
                                              > series bus drivers/transceivers are scarce. Modern equivalents are
                                              > available, but some folks would prefer the original oart number.
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              > Mike Willegal
                                              > www.willegal.net
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                              > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                              > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release Date: 10/23/2008 7:54 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • john_apw
                                              Thanks for your input Mike, I ll make note of your interests so as I go through I can set them aside, if I find any... -JohnM ... Apple ... been ... Common ...
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 23, 2008
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                                                Thanks for your input Mike,

                                                I'll make note of your interests so as I go through I can set them
                                                aside, if I find any...

                                                -JohnM



                                                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Mike Willegal <mike@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Just a comment here from someone who has built a replica 1977
                                                Apple
                                                > II era motherboard. Chips that are out of production and have
                                                been
                                                > out of production for a while might have significant value.
                                                Common
                                                > chips that were made in the millions, like DRAM, are less valuable
                                                > than complex logic chips made in more modest quantities. My take
                                                is
                                                > that most 74LSxx series chips have low value, since most of these
                                                > chips seem to still be in production. Some folks may care about
                                                date
                                                > codes, but I would consider that group of folks to be pretty
                                                tiny.
                                                > 74XX series chips may have more value, since they don't seem to be
                                                > too readily available. Some chips are very hard to find to
                                                today.
                                                > Examples include Signetics 25xx series and some relatively complex
                                                > logic chips like keyboard decoders. If you have MM5740 keyboard
                                                > decoders, let me know, because I can't find them anywhere. 8Txx
                                                > series bus drivers/transceivers are scarce. Modern equivalents
                                                are
                                                > available, but some folks would prefer the original oart number.
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                > Mike Willegal
                                                > www.willegal.net
                                                >
                                              • Mike Willegal
                                                Unicorn Electronics is a great source for vintage era parts, but if you look at their catalog, a lot of the 74xx series parts are listed with as discontinued,
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 23, 2008
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                                                  Unicorn Electronics is a great source for vintage era parts, but if
                                                  you look at their catalog, a lot of the 74xx series parts are listed
                                                  with as discontinued, stock conditions may vary,, what ever that
                                                  means. In any case I had a hard time finding a reliable 74166 for my
                                                  Apple II replica and that is the only 74xx series part used on the
                                                  board. I must admit that I didn't initially know about Unicorn
                                                  Electronics, though.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Mike Willegal
                                                • B Degnan
                                                  ... The other day, I was taking a walk downtown in Wilmington and I came upon a place called D&M Electronics. Their inventory was a little spotty, but they
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 24, 2008
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                                                    Mike Willegal wrote:
                                                    > Unicorn Electronics is a great source for vintage era parts, but if
                                                    > you look at their catalog, a lot of the 74xx series parts are listed
                                                    > with as discontinued, stock conditions may vary,, what ever that
                                                    > means. In any case I had a hard time finding a reliable 74166 for my
                                                    > Apple II replica and that is the only 74xx series part used on the
                                                    > board. I must admit that I didn't initially know about Unicorn
                                                    > Electronics, though.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards,
                                                    > Mike Willegal
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    The other day, I was taking a walk downtown in Wilmington and I came
                                                    upon a place called D&M Electronics. Their inventory was a little
                                                    spotty, but they had a rare item - The barrel shaped 3.6 V battery for
                                                    the Amiga 2000-4000 series. I would compare D&M to a Radioshak without
                                                    the commercial items and toys, and more electronics. I also bought some
                                                    heat sink compound and a 25-pin male to female RS232 cable. They are
                                                    not a chip seller per se, but it's nice that there is still a
                                                    "traditional" electronics shop in Wilmington, Delaware.

                                                    Bill
                                                  • Bryan Pope
                                                    ... I hate to be a pain, but do these 3.6V barrel shaped batteries have the two pieces of metal welded to them so that you can solder the battery to the
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 24, 2008
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                                                      B Degnan wrote:
                                                      > Mike Willegal wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> Unicorn Electronics is a great source for vintage era parts, but if
                                                      >> you look at their catalog, a lot of the 74xx series parts are listed
                                                      >> with as discontinued, stock conditions may vary,, what ever that
                                                      >> means. In any case I had a hard time finding a reliable 74166 for my
                                                      >> Apple II replica and that is the only 74xx series part used on the
                                                      >> board. I must admit that I didn't initially know about Unicorn
                                                      >> Electronics, though.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Regards,
                                                      >> Mike Willegal
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      > The other day, I was taking a walk downtown in Wilmington and I came
                                                      > upon a place called D&M Electronics. Their inventory was a little
                                                      > spotty, but they had a rare item - The barrel shaped 3.6 V battery for
                                                      > the Amiga 2000-4000 series. I would compare D&M to a Radioshak without
                                                      > the commercial items and toys, and more electronics. I also bought some
                                                      > heat sink compound and a 25-pin male to female RS232 cable. They are
                                                      > not a chip seller per se, but it's nice that there is still a
                                                      > "traditional" electronics shop in Wilmington, Delaware.
                                                      >
                                                      I hate to be a pain, but do these 3.6V barrel shaped batteries have the
                                                      two pieces of metal welded to them so that you can solder the battery to
                                                      the motherboard?

                                                      Cheers,

                                                      Bryan
                                                    • Herb Johnson
                                                      ... battery to ... Brian, 3.6V batteries are not rare , they are just not carried in-store by Radio Shack. They can be bought, with metal tabs or without,
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Oct 27, 2008
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                                                        Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...> wrote:

                                                        > I hate to be a pain, but do these 3.6V barrel shaped batteries have the
                                                        > two pieces of metal welded to them so that you can solder the
                                                        battery to
                                                        > the motherboard?
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        >
                                                        > Bryan
                                                        >

                                                        Brian, 3.6V batteries are not "rare", they are just not carried
                                                        in-store by Radio Shack. They can be bought, with metal tabs or
                                                        without, from a number of commercial electronic parts distributors.
                                                        Digikey and Jameco and Mouser come to mind, there are others on the
                                                        Web. Typically one has to order $25 or so in parts, which only makes
                                                        sense because who wants to pay $7 shipping for a $5 battery? Shipping
                                                        costs usually have a several dollar minimum.

                                                        Appropos of the thread about "vintage logic", these vendors sell many
                                                        older TTL chips and many older microprocessors. Jameco sells 8080's
                                                        amnd "straight" TTL (74XX) from the catalog for instance.

                                                        Bottom line - I'd advise everyone to get a Jameco and a Digikey
                                                        catalog, as a source of prices and availability of small electronic parts.

                                                        Herb JOhnson
                                                        retrotechnology.com
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