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Help request for possible pico system..

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  • frserapheim
    Hello all, this is my first message to the group so please bear with me. I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the right direction
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
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      Hello all,
      this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.

      I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
      right direction would be appreciated.

      Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
      small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
      system.

      Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
      3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
      Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
      24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
      have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.

      The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
      Flow is 1 litre a second.

      The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
      into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
      inverters/batteries!

      I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
      exists.

      Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
      turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
      then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
      if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
      option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
      turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
      inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.

      Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
      setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

      Please let me know what other information is required to make a
      decision.

      Thanks in advance
      frserapheim.
    • Nando
      What is your name ?. The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to re-certify the measurements For one, what is the pipe diameter and
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
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        What is your name ?.

        The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to re-certify the measurements

        For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.

        How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.

        Then we can proceed to see what is best -

        Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator itself.

        Nando



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: frserapheim
        To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
        Subject: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..


        Hello all,
        this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.

        I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
        right direction would be appreciated.

        Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
        small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
        system.

        Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
        3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
        Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
        24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
        have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.

        The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
        Flow is 1 litre a second.

        The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
        into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
        inverters/batteries!

        I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
        exists.

        Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
        turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
        then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
        if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
        option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
        turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
        inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.

        Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
        setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

        Please let me know what other information is required to make a
        decision.

        Thanks in advance
        frserapheim.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • fr serapheim
        Nando and group, thanks for the quick reply. Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for my name. I measured the pressure with a
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
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          Nando and group,

          thanks for the quick reply.

          Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for
          my name.

          I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The
          pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite
          difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain
          here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes length
          may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a
          pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and
          ill see what I can do to measure it.

          Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was
          done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres a
          minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each time
          I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The
          volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow of
          another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other
          turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water volume
          for us here will always be the same.

          Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted to
          generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the
          inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the
          hot out of the inverter.

          Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed
          anything info.

          fr serapheim.



          On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

          > What is your name ?.
          >
          > The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to
          > re-certify the measurements
          >
          > For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.
          >
          > How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.
          >
          > Then we can proceed to see what is best -
          >
          > Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator itself.
          >
          > Nando
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@...>
          > *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
          > *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
          >
          > Hello all,
          > this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.
          >
          > I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
          > right direction would be appreciated.
          >
          > Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
          > small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
          > system.
          >
          > Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
          > 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
          > Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
          > 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
          > have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.
          >
          > The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
          > Flow is 1 litre a second.
          >
          > The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
          > into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
          > inverters/batteries!
          >
          > I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
          > exists.
          >
          > Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
          > turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
          > then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
          > if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
          > option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
          > turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
          > inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.
          >
          > Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
          > setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Please let me know what other information is required to make a
          > decision.
          >
          > Thanks in advance
          > frserapheim.
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nando
          Fr Serapheim: It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume and that is a no-no. If you read carefully you could discover that you
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
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            Fr Serapheim:

            It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume and that is a no-no.

            If you read carefully you could discover that you need to measure or at least estimate the length of the pipe, which you say that is 1-1/4 inches.

            The diameter of the pipe defines the volume/second that can be used in a practical situation.

            For you to determine how much water you can use , you need in this case to do a different test and it is the determination of the volume of water when the static pressure you stated as 180 psi is not less than 60 % of the pressure or 108 PSI.

            This set up is done with a valve to adjust until the pressure drops to 108 PSI and then you measure the volume with this condition-- also , repeat the set up with a 65 % pressure or 117 psi.

            Normally, what we have done is to do 50 %, 55 %, 60 %, 65 % and 70 % to define the peak volume available to optimize the power harvesting, this when the length is not known or difficult to determine.

            With this values then one can calculate the peak available power for best volume under the conditions already in place.

            The connection and the generation we need to define better, so I need a detailed description of the system you have with the characteristics and specifications to see what can be done -- the most economical and the best electrically.

            Nando


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: fr serapheim
            To: Nando
            Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:56 AM
            Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..


            Nando and group,

            thanks for the quick reply.

            Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for
            my name.

            I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The
            pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite
            difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain
            here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes length
            may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a
            pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and
            ill see what I can do to measure it.

            Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was
            done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres a
            minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each time
            I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The
            volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow of
            another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other
            turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water volume
            for us here will always be the same.

            Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted to
            generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the
            inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the
            hot out of the inverter.

            Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed
            anything info.

            fr serapheim.

            On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

            > What is your name ?.
            >
            > The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to
            > re-certify the measurements
            >
            > For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.
            >
            > How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.
            >
            > Then we can proceed to see what is best -
            >
            > Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator itself.
            >
            > Nando
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@...>
            > *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
            > *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
            >
            > Hello all,
            > this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.
            >
            > I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
            > right direction would be appreciated.
            >
            > Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
            > small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
            > system.
            >
            > Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
            > 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
            > Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
            > 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
            > have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.
            >
            > The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
            > Flow is 1 litre a second.
            >
            > The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
            > into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
            > inverters/batteries!
            >
            > I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
            > exists.
            >
            > Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
            > turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
            > then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
            > if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
            > option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
            > turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
            > inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.
            >
            > Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
            > setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.
            >
            > Please let me know what other information is required to make a
            > decision.
            >
            > Thanks in advance
            > frserapheim.
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fr serapheim
            Nando and group, thanks again for the quick reply. Yes your quite right, the volume measurement was done with the valve fully open. I will measure the flow
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
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              Nando and group,

              thanks again for the quick reply.

              Yes your quite right, the volume measurement was done with the valve fully
              open. I will measure the flow based on the percentages of total PSI you
              mentioned and get back with the results as soon as I can. It may take me
              some time since the water source (that is the neighbours turbine) only runs
              on a as needed basis! I will try to get back with answers as soon as
              possible. I will try a measurement on the length of the pipe.

              Attached are the specifications of the inverter I am using. I have 3 X
              VFX3024E inverters which provide us with 3 phases 240 / 380 vAC. Please let
              me know if these specifications surfice or if you need any other info. Note
              again that I can connect directly to the AC out / Hot out of the inverters
              as long as the generating source is in sync / phase with the inverter.

              Thanks again for all the help.

              fr serapheim
              On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

              > Fr Serapheim:
              >
              > It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume and
              > that is a no-no.
              >
              > If you read carefully you could discover that you need to measure or at
              > least estimate the length of the pipe, which you say that is 1-1/4 inches.
              >
              > The diameter of the pipe defines the volume/second that can be used in a
              > practical situation.
              >
              > For you to determine how much water you can use , you need in this case to
              > do a different test and it is the determination of the volume of water when
              > the static pressure you stated as 180 psi is not less than 60 % of the
              > pressure or 108 PSI.
              >
              > This set up is done with a valve to adjust until the pressure drops to 108
              > PSI and then you measure the volume with this condition-- also , repeat the
              > set up with a 65 % pressure or 117 psi.
              >
              > Normally, what we have done is to do 50 %, 55 %, 60 %, 65 % and 70 % to
              > define the peak volume available to optimize the power harvesting, this when
              > the length is not known or difficult to determine.
              >
              > With this values then one can calculate the peak available power for best
              > volume under the conditions already in place.
              >
              > The connection and the generation we need to define better, so I need a
              > detailed description of the system you have with the characteristics and
              > specifications to see what can be done -- the most economical and the best
              > electrically.
              >
              > Nando
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: fr serapheim
              > To: Nando
              > Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:56 AM
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
              >
              > Nando and group,
              >
              > thanks for the quick reply.
              >
              > Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for
              > my name.
              >
              > I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The
              > pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite
              > difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain
              > here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes length
              > may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a
              > pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and
              > ill see what I can do to measure it.
              >
              > Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was
              > done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres a
              > minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each time
              > I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The
              > volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow of
              > another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other
              > turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water volume
              > for us here will always be the same.
              >
              > Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted to
              > generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the
              > inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the
              > hot out of the inverter.
              >
              > Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed
              > anything info.
              >
              > fr serapheim.
              >
              > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...<nando37%40tx.rr.com>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > What is your name ?.
              > >
              > > The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to
              > > re-certify the measurements
              > >
              > > For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.
              > >
              > > How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.
              > >
              > > Then we can proceed to see what is best -
              > >
              > > Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator
              > itself.
              > >
              > > Nando
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@... <frserapheim%40gmail.com>>
              > > *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com <microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
              > > *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
              > >
              > > Hello all,
              > > this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.
              > >
              > > I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
              > > right direction would be appreciated.
              > >
              > > Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
              > > small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
              > > system.
              > >
              > > Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
              > > 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
              > > Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
              > > 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
              > > have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.
              > >
              > > The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
              > > Flow is 1 litre a second.
              > >
              > > The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
              > > into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
              > > inverters/batteries!
              > >
              > > I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
              > > exists.
              > >
              > > Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
              > > turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
              > > then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
              > > if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
              > > option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
              > > turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
              > > inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.
              > >
              > > Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
              > > setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > > Please let me know what other information is required to make a
              > > decision.
              > >
              > > Thanks in advance
              > > frserapheim.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • fr serapheim
              Nando and group, following are the averages of the flow at the percentage you asked. The distance of the piping I can only guesstimate now at about 300 meters.
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 4, 2008
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                Nando and group,

                following are the averages of the flow at the percentage you asked. The
                distance of the piping I can only guesstimate now at about 300 meters. It
                will take me some time to actually be able to measure its length. I hope
                the following flows help: .

                at 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs
                at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs
                at 60 % or 110 psi 60 liters in 143 secs
                at 65% or 120 psi 60 liters in 145 secs

                Please let me know if the specifications I sent regarding the inverter are
                what you required or if you need any other info.

                Thanks again for all your help.
                fr serapheim.

                On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:47 PM, fr serapheim <frserapheim@...> wrote:

                > Nando and group,
                >
                > thanks again for the quick reply.
                >
                > Yes your quite right, the volume measurement was done with the valve fully
                > open. I will measure the flow based on the percentages of total PSI you
                > mentioned and get back with the results as soon as I can. It may take me
                > some time since the water source (that is the neighbours turbine) only runs
                > on a as needed basis! I will try to get back with answers as soon as
                > possible. I will try a measurement on the length of the pipe.
                >
                > Attached are the specifications of the inverter I am using. I have 3 X
                > VFX3024E inverters which provide us with 3 phases 240 / 380 vAC. Please let
                > me know if these specifications surfice or if you need any other info. Note
                > again that I can connect directly to the AC out / Hot out of the inverters
                > as long as the generating source is in sync / phase with the inverter.
                >
                > Thanks again for all the help.
                >
                > fr serapheim
                > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Fr Serapheim:
                >>
                >> It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume
                >> and that is a no-no.
                >>
                >> If you read carefully you could discover that you need to measure or at
                >> least estimate the length of the pipe, which you say that is 1-1/4 inches.
                >>
                >> The diameter of the pipe defines the volume/second that can be used in a
                >> practical situation.
                >>
                >> For you to determine how much water you can use , you need in this case to
                >> do a different test and it is the determination of the volume of water when
                >> the static pressure you stated as 180 psi is not less than 60 % of the
                >> pressure or 108 PSI.
                >>
                >> This set up is done with a valve to adjust until the pressure drops to 108
                >> PSI and then you measure the volume with this condition-- also , repeat the
                >> set up with a 65 % pressure or 117 psi.
                >>
                >> Normally, what we have done is to do 50 %, 55 %, 60 %, 65 % and 70 % to
                >> define the peak volume available to optimize the power harvesting, this when
                >> the length is not known or difficult to determine.
                >>
                >> With this values then one can calculate the peak available power for best
                >> volume under the conditions already in place.
                >>
                >> The connection and the generation we need to define better, so I need a
                >> detailed description of the system you have with the characteristics and
                >> specifications to see what can be done -- the most economical and the best
                >> electrically.
                >>
                >> Nando
                >>
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: fr serapheim
                >> To: Nando
                >> Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:56 AM
                >> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
                >>
                >> Nando and group,
                >>
                >> thanks for the quick reply.
                >>
                >> Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for
                >> my name.
                >>
                >> I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The
                >> pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite
                >> difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain
                >> here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes
                >> length
                >> may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a
                >> pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and
                >> ill see what I can do to measure it.
                >>
                >> Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was
                >> done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres
                >> a
                >> minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each
                >> time
                >> I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The
                >> volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow
                >> of
                >> another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other
                >> turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water
                >> volume
                >> for us here will always be the same.
                >>
                >> Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted
                >> to
                >> generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the
                >> inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the
                >> hot out of the inverter.
                >>
                >> Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed
                >> anything info.
                >>
                >> fr serapheim.
                >>
                >> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...<nando37%40tx.rr.com>>
                >> wrote:
                >>
                >> > What is your name ?.
                >> >
                >> > The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to
                >> > re-certify the measurements
                >> >
                >> > For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.
                >> >
                >> > How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.
                >> >
                >> > Then we can proceed to see what is best -
                >> >
                >> > Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator
                >> itself.
                >> >
                >> > Nando
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > ----- Original Message -----
                >> > *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@... <frserapheim%40gmail.com>>
                >> > *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com <microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
                >> > *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
                >> >
                >> > Hello all,
                >> > this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.
                >> >
                >> > I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
                >> > right direction would be appreciated.
                >> >
                >> > Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
                >> > small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
                >> > system.
                >> >
                >> > Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
                >> > 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
                >> > Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
                >> > 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
                >> > have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.
                >> >
                >> > The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
                >> > Flow is 1 litre a second.
                >> >
                >> > The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
                >> > into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
                >> > inverters/batteries!
                >> >
                >> > I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
                >> > exists.
                >> >
                >> > Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
                >> > turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
                >> > then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
                >> > if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
                >> > option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
                >> > turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
                >> > inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.
                >> >
                >> > Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
                >> > setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.
                >> >
                >> > Please let me know what other information is required to make a
                >> > decision.
                >> >
                >> > Thanks in advance
                >> > frserapheim.
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nando
                at 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs ; 90/1.42 * 60/131 * 6 = 174 watts at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs; 100/1.42 * 60/137 * 6 = 185 watts at 60 %
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 4, 2008
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                  at 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs ; 90/1.42 * 60/131 * 6 = 174 watts
                  at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs; 100/1.42 * 60/137 * 6 = 185 watts
                  at 60 % or 110 psi 60 liters in 143 secs; 110/1.42 * 60/143 * 6 = 195 watts
                  at 65 % or 120 psi 60 liters in 145 secs; 120/1.42 *60/145 * 6 = 209.8 watts

                  You may need to run 70, 75 and 80 % to see if you can get a bit more power

                  I seems that your system may be around 200 watts and of course as you explained before it may run sporadic when the upper hydro operates.

                  So low power we may need to consider just to charge the battery bank -- if the overall cost and the time it generates power is OK for you.

                  Therefore no need to consider the coupling to the 3 phase DC/AC INVERTER system.

                  Let me know

                  Nando

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: fr serapheim
                  To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com ; Nando
                  Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 3:36 PM
                  Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..


                  Nando and group,

                  following are the averages of the flow at the percentage you asked. The distance of the piping I can only guesstimate now at about 300 meters. It will take me some time to actually be able to measure its length. I hope the following flows help: .

                  at 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs
                  at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs
                  at 60 % or 110 psi 60 liters in 143 secs
                  at 65% or 120 psi 60 liters in 145 secs

                  Please let me know if the specifications I sent regarding the inverter are what you required or if you need any other info.

                  Thanks again for all your help.
                  fr serapheim.


                  On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:47 PM, fr serapheim <frserapheim@...> wrote:

                  Nando and group,

                  thanks again for the quick reply.

                  Yes your quite right, the volume measurement was done with the valve fully open. I will measure the flow based on the percentages of total PSI you mentioned and get back with the results as soon as I can. It may take me some time since the water source (that is the neighbours turbine) only runs on a as needed basis! I will try to get back with answers as soon as possible. I will try a measurement on the length of the pipe.

                  Attached are the specifications of the inverter I am using. I have 3 X VFX3024E inverters which provide us with 3 phases 240 / 380 vAC. Please let me know if these specifications surfice or if you need any other info. Note again that I can connect directly to the AC out / Hot out of the inverters as long as the generating source is in sync / phase with the inverter.

                  Thanks again for all the help.

                  fr serapheim

                  On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

                  Fr Serapheim:

                  It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume and that is a no-no.

                  If you read carefully you could discover that you need to measure or at least estimate the length of the pipe, which you say that is 1-1/4 inches.

                  The diameter of the pipe defines the volume/second that can be used in a practical situation.

                  For you to determine how much water you can use , you need in this case to do a different test and it is the determination of the volume of water when the static pressure you stated as 180 psi is not less than 60 % of the pressure or 108 PSI.

                  This set up is done with a valve to adjust until the pressure drops to 108 PSI and then you measure the volume with this condition-- also , repeat the set up with a 65 % pressure or 117 psi.

                  Normally, what we have done is to do 50 %, 55 %, 60 %, 65 % and 70 % to define the peak volume available to optimize the power harvesting, this when the length is not known or difficult to determine.

                  With this values then one can calculate the peak available power for best volume under the conditions already in place.

                  The connection and the generation we need to define better, so I need a detailed description of the system you have with the characteristics and specifications to see what can be done -- the most economical and the best electrically.

                  Nando



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: fr serapheim
                  To: Nando
                  Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:56 AM
                  Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..

                  Nando and group,

                  thanks for the quick reply.

                  Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for
                  my name.

                  I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The
                  pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite
                  difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain
                  here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes length
                  may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a
                  pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and
                  ill see what I can do to measure it.

                  Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was
                  done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres a
                  minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each time
                  I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The
                  volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow of
                  another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other
                  turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water volume
                  for us here will always be the same.

                  Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted to
                  generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the
                  inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the
                  hot out of the inverter.

                  Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed
                  anything info.

                  fr serapheim.

                  On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

                  > What is your name ?.
                  >
                  > The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to
                  > re-certify the measurements
                  >
                  > For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.
                  >
                  > How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.
                  >
                  > Then we can proceed to see what is best -
                  >
                  > Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator itself.
                  >
                  > Nando
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----

                  > *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@...>
                  > *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM
                  > *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..
                  >
                  > Hello all,
                  > this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.
                  >
                  > I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the
                  > right direction would be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very
                  > small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid
                  > system.
                  >
                  > Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:
                  > 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60
                  > Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100
                  > 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also
                  > have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.
                  >
                  > The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.
                  > Flow is 1 litre a second.
                  >
                  > The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows
                  > into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the
                  > inverters/batteries!
                  >
                  > I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one
                  > exists.
                  >
                  > Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of
                  > turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and
                  > then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine
                  > if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another
                  > option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any
                  > turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK
                  > inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.
                  >
                  > Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,
                  > setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.
                  >
                  > Please let me know what other information is required to make a
                  > decision.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance
                  > frserapheim.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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