- View SourceHello all,

this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.

I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the

right direction would be appreciated.

Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very

small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid

system.

Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:

3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60

Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100

24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also

have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.

The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.

Flow is 1 litre a second.

The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows

into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the

inverters/batteries!

I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one

exists.

Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of

turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and

then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine

if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another

option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any

turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK

inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.

Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,

setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

Please let me know what other information is required to make a

decision.

Thanks in advance

frserapheim. - View Sourceat 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs ; 90/1.42 * 60/131 * 6 = 174 watts

at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs; 100/1.42 * 60/137 * 6 = 185 watts

at 60 % or 110 psi 60 liters in 143 secs; 110/1.42 * 60/143 * 6 = 195 watts

at 65 % or 120 psi 60 liters in 145 secs; 120/1.42 *60/145 * 6 = 209.8 watts

You may need to run 70, 75 and 80 % to see if you can get a bit more power

I seems that your system may be around 200 watts and of course as you explained before it may run sporadic when the upper hydro operates.

So low power we may need to consider just to charge the battery bank -- if the overall cost and the time it generates power is OK for you.

Therefore no need to consider the coupling to the 3 phase DC/AC INVERTER system.

Let me know

Nando

----- Original Message -----

From: fr serapheim

To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com ; Nando

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 3:36 PM

Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..

Nando and group,

following are the averages of the flow at the percentage you asked. The distance of the piping I can only guesstimate now at about 300 meters. It will take me some time to actually be able to measure its length. I hope the following flows help: .

at 50 % or 90 psi 60 liters in 131 secs

at 55 % or 100 psi 60 liters in 137 secs

at 60 % or 110 psi 60 liters in 143 secs

at 65% or 120 psi 60 liters in 145 secs

Please let me know if the specifications I sent regarding the inverter are what you required or if you need any other info.

Thanks again for all your help.

fr serapheim.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:47 PM, fr serapheim <frserapheim@...> wrote:

Nando and group,

thanks again for the quick reply.

Yes your quite right, the volume measurement was done with the valve fully open. I will measure the flow based on the percentages of total PSI you mentioned and get back with the results as soon as I can. It may take me some time since the water source (that is the neighbours turbine) only runs on a as needed basis! I will try to get back with answers as soon as possible. I will try a measurement on the length of the pipe.

Attached are the specifications of the inverter I am using. I have 3 X VFX3024E inverters which provide us with 3 phases 240 / 380 vAC. Please let me know if these specifications surfice or if you need any other info. Note again that I can connect directly to the AC out / Hot out of the inverters as long as the generating source is in sync / phase with the inverter.

Thanks again for all the help.

fr serapheim

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

Fr Serapheim:

It seems that you had a fully open facucet when you measured the volume and that is a no-no.

If you read carefully you could discover that you need to measure or at least estimate the length of the pipe, which you say that is 1-1/4 inches.

The diameter of the pipe defines the volume/second that can be used in a practical situation.

For you to determine how much water you can use , you need in this case to do a different test and it is the determination of the volume of water when the static pressure you stated as 180 psi is not less than 60 % of the pressure or 108 PSI.

This set up is done with a valve to adjust until the pressure drops to 108 PSI and then you measure the volume with this condition-- also , repeat the set up with a 65 % pressure or 117 psi.

Normally, what we have done is to do 50 %, 55 %, 60 %, 65 % and 70 % to define the peak volume available to optimize the power harvesting, this when the length is not known or difficult to determine.

With this values then one can calculate the peak available power for best volume under the conditions already in place.

The connection and the generation we need to define better, so I need a detailed description of the system you have with the characteristics and specifications to see what can be done -- the most economical and the best electrically.

Nando

----- Original Message -----

From: fr serapheim

To: Nando

Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:56 AM

Subject: Re: [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..

Nando and group,

thanks for the quick reply.

Sorry first off I should have put a space between the fr and serapheim for

my name.

I measured the pressure with a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe. The

pipe is 1 and 1/4 inch poly. As for its exact distance it would be quite

difficult for me to measure it because of the difficulty of the terrain

here. Please tell me if I am wrong here but I thought that the pipes length

may not be needed if we already know the static pressure since we have a

pressure gauge? If the pipes length is truly needed please let me know and

ill see what I can do to measure it.

Volume was measured by filling a drum of known volume: 60 liters. This was

done a number of times. The average of all the measurements was 60 litres a

minute or 1 liter a second. It varied very little from this value each time

I measured. Other times it took 55 secs to fill other times 65 secs. The

volume will be the same throughout the year because it is the water flow of

another turbine some 200 meters up the mountain from here. This other

turbine works from a storage tank on a as needed basis. So the water volume

for us here will always be the same.

Just another newbie question, the Turgo with a induction motor converted to

generator or a generator itself - how will they be in phase with the

inverters I am using here? Note that I can only really connect them to the

hot out of the inverter.

Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if I have missed

anything info.

fr serapheim.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

> What is your name ?.

>

> The pressure and the volume gives you around 720 watts BUT we need to

> re-certify the measurements

>

> For one, what is the pipe diameter and its length.

>

> How did you measure the volume?. details set up carefully.

>

> Then we can proceed to see what is best -

>

> Turgo with a induction motor converted to generator or a generator itself.

>

> Nando

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* frserapheim <frserapheim@...>

> *To:* microhydro@yahoogroups.com

> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:01 PM

> *Subject:* [microhydro] Help request for possible pico system..

>

> Hello all,

> this is my first message to the group so please bear with me.

>

> I know very little about micro hydro so any help or steering in the

> right direction would be appreciated.

>

> Im looking at our options (if of course its feasible) for a very

> small pico system to help charge our batteries in our off grid

> system.

>

> Our current setup up if this information is at all useful is:

> 3 phase (3 X VFX3024E Outback 230Vac 50htz inverters, 3 X MX60

> Outback charge controllers, 4.6 kwatt PV array, 3300 amp/hr at C100

> 24 vDC battery bank), thats been running for about a year. We also

> have 2 X 3 phase gensets (20 kw) as bakcup power.

>

> The Static pressure from an already existing penstock is 180 PSI.

> Flow is 1 litre a second.

>

> The problem I am facing is that the water from our new penstock flows

> into our water storage tank some 150 meters away from the

> inverters/batteries!

>

> I am looking for a ready off the shelf product/solution if one

> exists.

>

> Could someone help with what sort of options I have in the way of

> turbines / setups. I think I may need either a high vDC turbine and

> then convert down to 24V at the battery bank or a 230/240 vAC turbine

> if one exists for the little water that we have availible. Another

> option I am thinking is perhaps if it is an AC unit, are there any

> turbines that I can AC Couple with the HOT OUT of the OUTBACK

> inverters? The OUTBACK inverters are bidirectional.

>

> Again any help with products (turbine options) that I could look at,

> setups or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Please let me know what other information is required to make a

> decision.

>

> Thanks in advance

> frserapheim.

>

>

>

>

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