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[microhydro] Re: An American View

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  • Ghanashyam Ranjitkar
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
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    • Alan S Drake
      Dear Group, Please note that I said Smaller Pumped Storage. I have been working on a proposal (with Vincent Denis) that combines pumped storage with
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Dear Group,

        Please note that I said "Smaller" Pumped Storage. I have been
        working on a proposal (with Vincent Denis) that combines pumped storage
        with multiple wind turbines. Pumped storage will be used to match two
        variables; time of day demand and wind speed. Since we are
        "competing" with diesel power, a smaller pumped storage unit (head ~380
        m); two Peltons (~400 kW & 1,200 kW) appears to be economic.

        The cost per stored MWh is higher with smaller scale pumped storage
        because of lost economies of scale. Such smaller scale units would not
        appear to be more than marginally economic (unless one had free civil
        works such as an abandoned quarry, or pumped storage could use an existing
        hydro facility, etc.) if competing against "typical" grid power.

        The concept, in my opinion, should not be overlooked when an appropriate
        oportunity presents itself. Widespread use as an alternative to
        "grid" power does not, however, seem likely.


        Alan Drake
      • Matti Sorto
        ttoal200-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=958 ... with ... energy than ... burned. ... processes that ...
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
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          ttoal200-@... wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=958
          > "Energy ... modern life is built upon it ... is a basic factor equal
          with
          > air, water and earth". ("Small Is Beautiful"-Sep 64)
          >
          > The processes that produce energy require the injection of more
          energy than
          > released.
          >
          > FUEL represents a store of energy released in the form of heat when
          burned.
          >
          > The Real Problem is ... eliminate access to fuel and all other
          processes that
          > depend on fuel will cease.
          >
          > The Growing Problem is ... World population is growing while economic
          > expansion continues and developing countries are INCREASING energy
          > consumption.
          >
          > "... it is inevitable that fossil fuel produced power costs will
          continue to
          > increase.
          >
          > Demand will rise across the first decade of the new century, driven
          by world
          > population increases AND the rapid spread of an electrical lifestyle
          to the
          > countryside of China, Russia, Africa and South America". (Mother
          Earth News -
          > November 1997 edition)
          >
          > FACT: World energy supply is NOT increasing! Our living standards
          will be
          > jeopardized.
          >
          > Alternate energy sources:
          >
          > Hydro - the earliest reference of energy from FALLING water is found
          in Greek
          > writings of the 4th century BC. Hydropower was first used to produce
          > electricity in Appleton, Wisconsin USA on September 30, 1882.
          >
          > Since then we have discovered the amount of electricity produced at a
          site
          > depends on the volume of water available and the head, or distance
          the water
          > falls. However, the bigger the dam, the bigger the impact on the
          > environment.
          >
          > Micro-hydro development and trickle charging have less an impact on
          the
          > environment, BUT, urban development, dry seasons and freezing winters
          make
          > Micro-hydro available to only a few.
          >
          > So ... solar power. It is the most popular, unfortunately is the
          most
          > expensive alternate energy source and is only available 6-8 hours a
          day.
          > Additional batteries are required to account for the night, the time
          most
          > households are at their electricity consumption peak.
          >
          > As for wind generators, well, the wind is simply unpredictable.
          >
          > Fuels cell ... great system and are much better for the environment.
          Are they
          > an Alternate energy?
          >
          > The system emits no pollution. It uses the idea of producing the
          electricity
          > in micro plants where it is needed vice producing mega-tons and
          having to
          > distribute with huge grids.
          >
          > Unfortunately, dependence on the massive utility companies will
          remain the
          > same as electric lines are changed to dangerous gas lines to feed the
          fuel
          > cell.
          >
          > Of all the disadvantages discussed it appears hydro is the best
          alternate
          > source of home electricity. Although a constant flow and stream are
          required
          > a constant charge is produced.
          >
          > If we eliminate the need for large reservoirs and the disruption of
          the
          > environment we would have the perfect pollution solution.
          >
          > Well, if you've read this far you should be interested in the idea I
          just
          > patented. "Why not just recycle the water and simulate constant flow
          and
          > stream"? Don't just simulate "water fall", replace volume and
          gravity with
          > pressure and velocity. A system that simply stores converted energy
          created
          > by water flow between a series of tanks.
          >
          > A closed loop, pressurized concept solves a few basic problems in
          Micro-hydro
          > sites:
          >
          > - Eliminates the need for large reservoirs.
          > - Eliminates head loss due to friction.
          > - Eliminates location restraints.
          > - Eliminates distance electricity has to travel.
          > - Eliminates excess batteries.
          >
          > Therefore, creating a significant reduction in cost of piping,
          wiring,
          > batteries and prevents a loss of valuable real estate.
          >
          > My portable hydroelectric power system was originally designed to
          provide
          > FREE power for home heating and cooling.
          >
          > If you would be interested in joining me to develop a business around
          this
          > concept (local, national and international market) send me an email
          at
          > ttoal2000@...
          >
          > And "YES" I am searching for sponsors to develop my system.
          Exclusive
          > rights in your area are negotiable.
          >
          > Sincerely,
          > T. Toal
          >
          > ps - I promote non-toxic products and people only. "Take a
          challenge"; ask
          > me to mail you information about other non-toxic products.
          >
          > Copy right, T. Toal, Jan2000

          dear mr T.Toal

          Being a person who tries to make a living with technical issues on
          hydropower, I must sincerely say that if yoy have found something new
          that throws the laws of present principles upside down, then you´ll be
          sure to have a nice future.

          If not, .... Anyway if you are convinced that there is something unique
          to be found, there is certainly not going to be a lack of interest,
          for sure.

          Hydro technology may not be that young, so pls watch out...

          I have, for exaple, seen with my own eyes a patent that has been
          approved for an equipment : hydro turbine, for energy recovery for a
          hydro turbine operating far enough from the optimum point of operation.

          Anyway, check your calculations once again.. and be careful to have
          some bucks and water for the march... .. .. .. ..

          After all, all conventional hydro machinery work more or less in the
          same principle , i.e. converting hydraulic energy to a torque on a
          rotating shaft to be converted to electrical energy to an AC grid.

          There the crucial factor is, simplified, the momentum of the flow in
          proportion to the rotating shaft and its speed.

          Thus the optimum head vs. flow and revs. and the general dimensions of
          the equipment can be determined.

          As mentioned, water can be pulled. But only in limited magnitude, if
          too much, then the owner of a hydro turbine has another name for it :
          cavitation.

          Hydraulic energy, for its part can be, at least theoretically,
          "upgraded" or "refined" on either hydraulic energy side ( creating a
          higher head with a low-head, (maybe unlimited) flow (rams, ejectors))
          or stepping up the shaft speed mechanically.

          Typically the former has poor efficiency and requires huge facilities
          but can be sometimes argumented for environmental and storage reasons.
          Some interesting concepts for the later exist. Ejectors are no news but
          of peressure-step-up I do not know....

          Really, for example, closed - loop resembling concepts for hydraulic
          rams have been invented, thus reducing the losses of the whole
          oscillating penstock.

          Typically the profitable factor of step-up may be high for hydraulic
          and low for mechanic.

          Waiting to see more of your concept

          regards


          matti sorto
        • Joseph Hartvigsen
          Hi Dan, dan j youngs wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=966 ... I like this point of view! ... 3 to ...
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Hi Dan,

            dan j youngs <dany1-@...> wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=966
            > Hello from another American,
            >
            > I really don't care who was first...... how about who will be next?

            I like this point of view!

            >
            > I am working on my first micohydro project, Picohydro would be more
            > correct. I need good information on design of a crossflow turbine
            ...
            > How wide, What diameter, and anything else. My site will have only
            3 to
            > 4 ft of head.
            >

            Is there any way you can get more head using a reasonable length of
            pipe, "run of the river"? As has often been noted here, the more head
            the lower the turbine cost ($/kW). Of course the pipe is not free,
            but if the land has much of a grade it is usually a good trade off.


            > It is only 1/4 mile of the grid so economics will not justify a large
            > investment. I can run power from the grid for about $4000. I have
            set
            > myself a limit of $1000.
            >
            > Also I am looking for info on converting automoble parts for
            charging.
            >
            > I have not measured the flow yet because of ice and cold.

            The snow shouldn't stop you from doing a bit of surveying to see
            how much head is available. Twenty years ago, after two years in
            Hawaii, I had a job as a surveyors assistant, mid winter in the
            mountains around Park City Utah. It was a shock, but I survived.

            >
            > Dan
            > Binghamton, New York, USA
            > ________________________________________________________________
            > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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            Joe
          • Mark M Harris
            Hi Dan J Youngs, I was hoping to hear from and work w/ people like you. Try: Producing Your own Power (Rodale Press) CRUDE drawings of a crossflow. There is
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
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              Hi Dan J Youngs,

              I was hoping to hear from and work w/ people like you.

              Try:
              Producing Your own Power (Rodale Press) CRUDE drawings of a crossflow.

              There is a guy on the net selling plans for a 12" dia x 48" wide crossflow
              (3 foot head +/- ) NO FLOW REGULATION other than change 48"
              (sorry I don't know address try searching micro hydro etc)


              I too would love to find REAL blue prints , etc.I am a machinist ( the
              mechanical end is easy ) BUT the electric end of things is driving me up a
              wall.

              I built(and installed) a cross flow (12" dia, 22' head , 6 + cubic feet
              per second )
              Cost $60.00 (for bearings,shaft& welding ) + scrap aluminum&pipe + TIME
              Perhaps we can help each other.( I live about 1 hour from Binghamton. )

              Keep up the positive attitude and good luck! Mark (mharris@...)
            • Dan J Youngs
              Hey Mark, I think we can work together!!!!!! I am an electrical guy and would love to help you out ..... sounds like we can both benifit. :) The crossflow
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 2, 2000
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                Hey Mark,

                I think we can work together!!!!!! I am an electrical guy and would love
                to help you out ..... sounds like we can both benifit. :) The
                crossflow plans for sale on the web are at
                http://www.public.usit.net/pinecrst/text/hydro.htm . The guy who owns the
                camp where I am investagating sent for them last week. I have not seen
                them yet. This site also talks about modifying a car altenator. Does
                anyone know what he means by modify? I think he is just taking out the
                rectifiers so he can step up the voltage w/ a transformer for the long
                run back to the house. Then he uses a standard battery charger to fill
                his golf cart batteries. Back to the auto altenator I beleive the
                standard unit has 3 windings does this mean he will get three phase AC
                out?

                Mike,
                Sorry to tick you off....... I certanly did not mean any harm..... But
                thanx for the formuli.......

                Joseph,
                Thanx, for the pipe idea, I was stuck thinking the turbine had to be in
                the water as it came over the dam...... I know better...... But I had a
                picture in my head I was thinking. A partial dam exists but I intend to
                raise it about 2 feet. I can't go much more unless I want to get to the
                cabin by boat. How does the slope of the pipe effect the operation. Is
                it better to drop a little along the way or as much as possible right by
                the turbine.

                All,
                I have been interseted in Micro hydro for about 10 years but have not met
                anyone else interested. Thanx to who ever put this thing together , It
                is a bright spot for me....

                How do I look at the archives.......???

                Dan


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              • Joseph Hartvigsen
                Dan, ES&D has a nice discussion on INTAKE, PIPELINE, AND TAILRACE in their manual at http://www.microhydropower.com/manual.html The simplest answer is that
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 3, 2000
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                  Dan,

                  ES&D has a nice discussion on "INTAKE, PIPELINE, AND TAILRACE" in
                  their manual at http://www.microhydropower.com/manual.html
                  The simplest answer is that the static head at any point along
                  the pipeline should be greater than the accumulated entrance, fitting,
                  and friction losses to that point. In general this means it is
                  more important to pick up a little extra head near the top of the
                  pipe than near the turbine. If the terrain doesn't cooperate in
                  this regard, you can compensate by digging the trench for the pipe
                  deeper at first (just remember to stay out of unsupported trenches).
                  Canyon Industries has an nice picture of how to measure (survey)
                  the fall (&flow) at your site. http://www.geocities.com/~canyon5/
                  Click on (systems) -> (Residential & Commercial Systems) ->
                  (how to measure flow and head). You can get a small hand level
                  that works like the transit shown for as little as $20. Let me
                  know if you want help calculating pipe losses and sizing the pipe.

                  And yes, thanks to Wim for starting this group. All the postings
                  are available at http://www.egroups.com/list/microhydro/ if you
                  normally get them by email only.

                  Joe



                  dan j youngs <dany1-@...> wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=990
                  >
                  > ...
                  >
                  > Joseph,
                  > Thanx, for the pipe idea, I was stuck thinking the turbine had to
                  be in
                  > the water as it came over the dam...... I know better...... But I
                  had a
                  > picture in my head I was thinking. A partial dam exists but I intend
                  to
                  > raise it about 2 feet. I can't go much more unless I want to get to
                  the
                  > cabin by boat. How does the slope of the pipe effect the operation.
                  Is
                  > it better to drop a little along the way or as much as possible right
                  by
                  > the turbine.
                  >
                  > All,
                  > I have been interseted in Micro hydro for about 10 years but have not
                  met
                  > anyone else interested. Thanx to who ever put this thing together ,
                  It
                  > is a bright spot for me....
                  >
                  > How do I look at the archives.......???
                  >
                  > Dan
                  >
                • David Green
                  Hi Matti Sorto, In your reply to T.Toal you mentioned higher efficiency methods (see below). I am using older rams to raise water to ponds (which then flows
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 3, 2000
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                    Hi Matti Sorto,
                    In your reply to T.Toal you mentioned higher efficiency methods (see
                    below). I am using older rams to raise water to ponds (which then
                    flows downhill). One of the design factors for my turbine system I am
                    installing is to use it for pumping water in the summer to these ponds.

                    You mentioned ejectors and closed-loop rams. You have my interest! If
                    these can produce volume with unlimited in-flow that is much improved
                    from the rams I use I would love to look into it. Right now each ram
                    is delivering 4 gallons with a throughput of 14 gallons. I use banks
                    of them. The maintenence is frustating me. Please provide some more
                    info or where to get info.
                    Thanks in advance.
                    -David



                    "matti sorto" <matti.sort-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=980
                    > ttoal200-@... wrote:
                    > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=958

                    ><BIG Snip>
                    > There the crucial factor is, simplified, the momentum of the flow in
                    > proportion to the rotating shaft and its speed.
                    >
                    > Thus the optimum head vs. flow and revs. and the general dimensions of
                    > the equipment can be determined.
                    >
                    > As mentioned, water can be pulled. But only in limited magnitude, if
                    > too much, then the owner of a hydro turbine has another name for it :
                    > cavitation.
                    >
                    > Hydraulic energy, for its part can be, at least theoretically,
                    > "upgraded" or "refined" on either hydraulic energy side ( creating a
                    > higher head with a low-head, (maybe unlimited) flow (rams, ejectors))
                    > or stepping up the shaft speed mechanically.
                    >
                    > Typically the former has poor efficiency and requires huge facilities
                    > but can be sometimes argumented for environmental and storage reasons.
                    > Some interesting concepts for the later exist. Ejectors are no news
                    but
                    > of peressure-step-up I do not know....
                    >
                    > Really, for example, closed - loop resembling concepts for hydraulic
                    > rams have been invented, thus reducing the losses of the whole
                    > oscillating penstock.
                    >
                    > Typically the profitable factor of step-up may be high for hydraulic
                    > and low for mechanic.
                    >
                    > Waiting to see more of your concept
                    >
                    > regards
                    >
                    >
                    > matti sorto
                    >
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