[microhydro] Re: An American View
- Dear Group,
Please note that I said "Smaller" Pumped Storage. I have been
working on a proposal (with Vincent Denis) that combines pumped storage
with multiple wind turbines. Pumped storage will be used to match two
variables; time of day demand and wind speed. Since we are
"competing" with diesel power, a smaller pumped storage unit (head ~380
m); two Peltons (~400 kW & 1,200 kW) appears to be economic.
The cost per stored MWh is higher with smaller scale pumped storage
because of lost economies of scale. Such smaller scale units would not
appear to be more than marginally economic (unless one had free civil
works such as an abandoned quarry, or pumped storage could use an existing
hydro facility, etc.) if competing against "typical" grid power.
The concept, in my opinion, should not be overlooked when an appropriate
oportunity presents itself. Widespread use as an alternative to
"grid" power does not, however, seem likely.
- ttoal200-@... wrote:
> "Energy ... modern life is built upon it ... is a basic factor equalwith
> air, water and earth". ("Small Is Beautiful"-Sep 64)energy than
> The processes that produce energy require the injection of more
> FUEL represents a store of energy released in the form of heat when
> The Real Problem is ... eliminate access to fuel and all other
> depend on fuel will cease.continue to
> The Growing Problem is ... World population is growing while economic
> expansion continues and developing countries are INCREASING energy
> "... it is inevitable that fossil fuel produced power costs will
> increase.by world
> Demand will rise across the first decade of the new century, driven
> population increases AND the rapid spread of an electrical lifestyleto the
> countryside of China, Russia, Africa and South America". (MotherEarth News -
> November 1997 edition)will be
> FACT: World energy supply is NOT increasing! Our living standards
> jeopardized.in Greek
> Alternate energy sources:
> Hydro - the earliest reference of energy from FALLING water is found
> writings of the 4th century BC. Hydropower was first used to producesite
> electricity in Appleton, Wisconsin USA on September 30, 1882.
> Since then we have discovered the amount of electricity produced at a
> depends on the volume of water available and the head, or distancethe water
> falls. However, the bigger the dam, the bigger the impact on thethe
> Micro-hydro development and trickle charging have less an impact on
> environment, BUT, urban development, dry seasons and freezing wintersmake
> Micro-hydro available to only a few.most
> So ... solar power. It is the most popular, unfortunately is the
> expensive alternate energy source and is only available 6-8 hours aday.
> Additional batteries are required to account for the night, the timemost
> households are at their electricity consumption peak.Are they
> As for wind generators, well, the wind is simply unpredictable.
> Fuels cell ... great system and are much better for the environment.
> an Alternate energy?electricity
> The system emits no pollution. It uses the idea of producing the
> in micro plants where it is needed vice producing mega-tons andhaving to
> distribute with huge grids.remain the
> Unfortunately, dependence on the massive utility companies will
> same as electric lines are changed to dangerous gas lines to feed thefuel
> Of all the disadvantages discussed it appears hydro is the best
> source of home electricity. Although a constant flow and stream arerequired
> a constant charge is produced.the
> If we eliminate the need for large reservoirs and the disruption of
> environment we would have the perfect pollution solution.just
> Well, if you've read this far you should be interested in the idea I
> patented. "Why not just recycle the water and simulate constant flowand
> stream"? Don't just simulate "water fall", replace volume andgravity with
> pressure and velocity. A system that simply stores converted energycreated
> by water flow between a series of tanks.Micro-hydro
> A closed loop, pressurized concept solves a few basic problems in
> - Eliminates the need for large reservoirs.
> - Eliminates head loss due to friction.
> - Eliminates location restraints.
> - Eliminates distance electricity has to travel.
> - Eliminates excess batteries.
> Therefore, creating a significant reduction in cost of piping,
> batteries and prevents a loss of valuable real estate.provide
> My portable hydroelectric power system was originally designed to
> FREE power for home heating and cooling.this
> If you would be interested in joining me to develop a business around
> concept (local, national and international market) send me an emailat
> And "YES" I am searching for sponsors to develop my system.
> rights in your area are negotiable.challenge"; ask
> T. Toal
> ps - I promote non-toxic products and people only. "Take a
> me to mail you information about other non-toxic products.dear mr T.Toal
> Copy right, T. Toal, Jan2000
Being a person who tries to make a living with technical issues on
hydropower, I must sincerely say that if yoy have found something new
that throws the laws of present principles upside down, then you´ll be
sure to have a nice future.
If not, .... Anyway if you are convinced that there is something unique
to be found, there is certainly not going to be a lack of interest,
Hydro technology may not be that young, so pls watch out...
I have, for exaple, seen with my own eyes a patent that has been
approved for an equipment : hydro turbine, for energy recovery for a
hydro turbine operating far enough from the optimum point of operation.
Anyway, check your calculations once again.. and be careful to have
some bucks and water for the march... .. .. .. ..
After all, all conventional hydro machinery work more or less in the
same principle , i.e. converting hydraulic energy to a torque on a
rotating shaft to be converted to electrical energy to an AC grid.
There the crucial factor is, simplified, the momentum of the flow in
proportion to the rotating shaft and its speed.
Thus the optimum head vs. flow and revs. and the general dimensions of
the equipment can be determined.
As mentioned, water can be pulled. But only in limited magnitude, if
too much, then the owner of a hydro turbine has another name for it :
Hydraulic energy, for its part can be, at least theoretically,
"upgraded" or "refined" on either hydraulic energy side ( creating a
higher head with a low-head, (maybe unlimited) flow (rams, ejectors))
or stepping up the shaft speed mechanically.
Typically the former has poor efficiency and requires huge facilities
but can be sometimes argumented for environmental and storage reasons.
Some interesting concepts for the later exist. Ejectors are no news but
of peressure-step-up I do not know....
Really, for example, closed - loop resembling concepts for hydraulic
rams have been invented, thus reducing the losses of the whole
Typically the profitable factor of step-up may be high for hydraulic
and low for mechanic.
Waiting to see more of your concept
- Hi Dan,
dan j youngs <dany1-@...> wrote:
> Hello from another American,I like this point of view!
> I really don't care who was first...... how about who will be next?
> I am working on my first micohydro project, Picohydro would be more
> correct. I need good information on design of a crossflow turbine
> How wide, What diameter, and anything else. My site will have only3 to
> 4 ft of head.Is there any way you can get more head using a reasonable length of
pipe, "run of the river"? As has often been noted here, the more head
the lower the turbine cost ($/kW). Of course the pipe is not free,
but if the land has much of a grade it is usually a good trade off.
> It is only 1/4 mile of the grid so economics will not justify a largeset
> investment. I can run power from the grid for about $4000. I have
> myself a limit of $1000.charging.
> Also I am looking for info on converting automoble parts for
>The snow shouldn't stop you from doing a bit of surveying to see
> I have not measured the flow yet because of ice and cold.
how much head is available. Twenty years ago, after two years in
Hawaii, I had a job as a surveyors assistant, mid winter in the
mountains around Park City Utah. It was a shock, but I survived.
> Binghamton, New York, USA
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
- Hi Dan J Youngs,
I was hoping to hear from and work w/ people like you.
Producing Your own Power (Rodale Press) CRUDE drawings of a crossflow.
There is a guy on the net selling plans for a 12" dia x 48" wide crossflow
(3 foot head +/- ) NO FLOW REGULATION other than change 48"
(sorry I don't know address try searching micro hydro etc)
I too would love to find REAL blue prints , etc.I am a machinist ( the
mechanical end is easy ) BUT the electric end of things is driving me up a
I built(and installed) a cross flow (12" dia, 22' head , 6 + cubic feet
per second )
Cost $60.00 (for bearings,shaft& welding ) + scrap aluminum&pipe + TIME
Perhaps we can help each other.( I live about 1 hour from Binghamton. )
Keep up the positive attitude and good luck! Mark (mharris@...)
- Hey Mark,
I think we can work together!!!!!! I am an electrical guy and would love
to help you out ..... sounds like we can both benifit. :) The
crossflow plans for sale on the web are at
http://www.public.usit.net/pinecrst/text/hydro.htm . The guy who owns the
camp where I am investagating sent for them last week. I have not seen
them yet. This site also talks about modifying a car altenator. Does
anyone know what he means by modify? I think he is just taking out the
rectifiers so he can step up the voltage w/ a transformer for the long
run back to the house. Then he uses a standard battery charger to fill
his golf cart batteries. Back to the auto altenator I beleive the
standard unit has 3 windings does this mean he will get three phase AC
Sorry to tick you off....... I certanly did not mean any harm..... But
thanx for the formuli.......
Thanx, for the pipe idea, I was stuck thinking the turbine had to be in
the water as it came over the dam...... I know better...... But I had a
picture in my head I was thinking. A partial dam exists but I intend to
raise it about 2 feet. I can't go much more unless I want to get to the
cabin by boat. How does the slope of the pipe effect the operation. Is
it better to drop a little along the way or as much as possible right by
I have been interseted in Micro hydro for about 10 years but have not met
anyone else interested. Thanx to who ever put this thing together , It
is a bright spot for me....
How do I look at the archives.......???
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
ES&D has a nice discussion on "INTAKE, PIPELINE, AND TAILRACE" in
their manual at http://www.microhydropower.com/manual.html
The simplest answer is that the static head at any point along
the pipeline should be greater than the accumulated entrance, fitting,
and friction losses to that point. In general this means it is
more important to pick up a little extra head near the top of the
pipe than near the turbine. If the terrain doesn't cooperate in
this regard, you can compensate by digging the trench for the pipe
deeper at first (just remember to stay out of unsupported trenches).
Canyon Industries has an nice picture of how to measure (survey)
the fall (&flow) at your site. http://www.geocities.com/~canyon5/
Click on (systems) -> (Residential & Commercial Systems) ->
(how to measure flow and head). You can get a small hand level
that works like the transit shown for as little as $20. Let me
know if you want help calculating pipe losses and sizing the pipe.
And yes, thanks to Wim for starting this group. All the postings
are available at http://www.egroups.com/list/microhydro/ if you
normally get them by email only.
dan j youngs <dany1-@...> wrote:
> Thanx, for the pipe idea, I was stuck thinking the turbine had to
> the water as it came over the dam...... I know better...... But Ihad a
> picture in my head I was thinking. A partial dam exists but I intendto
> raise it about 2 feet. I can't go much more unless I want to get tothe
> cabin by boat. How does the slope of the pipe effect the operation.Is
> it better to drop a little along the way or as much as possible rightby
> the turbine.met
> I have been interseted in Micro hydro for about 10 years but have not
> anyone else interested. Thanx to who ever put this thing together ,It
> is a bright spot for me....
> How do I look at the archives.......???
- Hi Matti Sorto,
In your reply to T.Toal you mentioned higher efficiency methods (see
below). I am using older rams to raise water to ponds (which then
flows downhill). One of the design factors for my turbine system I am
installing is to use it for pumping water in the summer to these ponds.
You mentioned ejectors and closed-loop rams. You have my interest! If
these can produce volume with unlimited in-flow that is much improved
from the rams I use I would love to look into it. Right now each ram
is delivering 4 gallons with a throughput of 14 gallons. I use banks
of them. The maintenence is frustating me. Please provide some more
info or where to get info.
Thanks in advance.
"matti sorto" <matti.sort-@...> wrote:
> ttoal200-@... wrote:but
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/microhydro/?start=958
> There the crucial factor is, simplified, the momentum of the flow in
> proportion to the rotating shaft and its speed.
> Thus the optimum head vs. flow and revs. and the general dimensions of
> the equipment can be determined.
> As mentioned, water can be pulled. But only in limited magnitude, if
> too much, then the owner of a hydro turbine has another name for it :
> Hydraulic energy, for its part can be, at least theoretically,
> "upgraded" or "refined" on either hydraulic energy side ( creating a
> higher head with a low-head, (maybe unlimited) flow (rams, ejectors))
> or stepping up the shaft speed mechanically.
> Typically the former has poor efficiency and requires huge facilities
> but can be sometimes argumented for environmental and storage reasons.
> Some interesting concepts for the later exist. Ejectors are no news
> of peressure-step-up I do not know....
> Really, for example, closed - loop resembling concepts for hydraulic
> rams have been invented, thus reducing the losses of the whole
> oscillating penstock.
> Typically the profitable factor of step-up may be high for hydraulic
> and low for mechanic.
> Waiting to see more of your concept
> matti sorto