Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock

Expand Messages
  • Jan Nelson
    40 psi. My site has a bit over 100 psi as does Tim s (based on his estimates of head). 40 is typical domestic water supply pressure, but you can get pressure
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      40 psi.

      My site has a bit over 100 psi as does Tim's (based on his estimates of head).

      40 is typical domestic water supply pressure, but you can get pressure booster pumps for osmotic systems if needed.

      Jan

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Natural Treasures Massage Products
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock


      What is the pressure gradient in osmotic filters? I think it is higher than
      what gravity fed systems are capable of , unless there has been a big shift
      in working pressures of osmotic de-ionizers. In a previous life my job was
      to maintain deionizers for a lab using prefilters, etc. Amazing amount of
      slime in industrial water.
      David Green
      www.customcharcoal.com
      American Tree Farmer
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jan Nelson" <jan@...>
      To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>; <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 12:25 PM
      Subject: RE: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock

      >I disagree. I believe osmotic filters are highly capable of this. In a
      >previous life (so to speak) I used to design and install clean rooms where
      >the HEPA filtration would scrub to .3 micron level and there are much finer
      >filters today... I use one.
      >
      > Cheers.
      >
      > Jan
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: "Natural Treasures Massage Products" <barclay@...>
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: 12/29/2006 8:17 PM
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock
      >
      > Just for your information. Viruses cannot be filtered out and a lot of
      > bacteria also. They are too small!
      > The best I have found is treating the filtered water with a UV lamp as
      > found
      > in fish ponds which will sterilize the water.
      >
      > David Green
      > www.customcharcoal.com
      > American Tree Farmer
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jan Nelson" <jan@...>
      > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:46 PM
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock
      >
      >
      >>I use a float and automatic shutoff switch for a water feature pond at my
      >>house. You can get them at any garden supply center that deals with pond
      >>supplies. Here is an example, but there are many styles:
      >>http://www.watergarden.org/s.nl/it.A/id.89/.f;jsessionid=ac112b2a1f434dd597dbf1b347bda66090ba4d5ba192.e3eSbNyQc3mLe3eRbxePah0Le6fznA5Pp7ftolbGmkTy?sc=2&category=71
      >>
      >> I guess I am wondering why you even want/need a tank unless that stream
      >> is
      >> going to run dry in the Summer/Fall seasons. I use a dedicated 1" poly
      >> line to supply all my house/garden needs at my cabin site. If you did
      >> the
      >> same, even if it were extended to 2500' (mine is 3500'), you'd have 100+
      >> psi static pressure in a 1" column of water that will provide all the
      >> flow
      >> you need for bathing, gardening, lawns, cooking ,etc... And the good
      >> news
      >> here is that 1" poly line is pretty cheap. I get it at Home Depot for
      >> about $25 per 100' which calcs out to $625 USD for a dedicated water line
      >> for non-turbine watering needs and no tank to deal with. I use screen
      >> filtering at the pickup and a sand filter at the cabin site. Then I use
      >> microfiltration for viral and bacterial elimination where potable water
      >> is
      >> required without boiling or chemical treatment.
      >>
      >> Jan
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: old_truculent_tim_mccoy
      >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:18 PM
      >> Subject: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock
      >>
      >>
      >> It's impressive how helpful everyone is with their comments, thanks.
      >> I have noticed no one has recommended that I use the hydro-gravitizer,
      >> though :)
      >>
      >> Here is another simple question now, I'm just looking for the name of
      >> a part I need; basically I'd call it a valve controlled by a float
      >> switch that opens when the level of a tank drops to a certain level
      >> and closes when the tank is full. What is the name of this item?
      >>
      >> BACKGROUND
      >> (you can skip this background part if you like and go ahead
      >> to the idea and question)
      >> Presently, there is 1900 ft. of 0.75 inch poly feeding an 800 gallon
      >> water tank. Both the line and the tank need to be replaced. The
      >> budget says the line will probably be 2" poly (though it's possible
      >> part of the run can be larger pipe, I'll definitely try to do that)
      >> and the tank will be about 2000 gallons. The tank supplies water for
      >> household purposes (previous residents drank the water with no
      >> filtration, but that will probably change now). The line comes from a
      >> small stream.
      >
      > [truncated by sender]
      >
      >
      >
      > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
      > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
      > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
      >
      > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
      > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
      > endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
      >
      > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
      >
      > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
      > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Eric Youngren
      The float valves I’ve used are basically brass versions of a toilet tank float on a rod that actuates the ¾” valve. The amount of hysteresis is
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        The float valves I’ve used are basically brass versions of a toilet tank
        float on a rod that actuates the ¾” valve. The amount of hysteresis is
        determined by the length of the rod that connects the float to the valve. A
        longer rod would need a greater drop in water level to open the valve again.
        The ones I’ve used have about 12” of rod but I suppose you could fabricate
        something longer – just make sure the valve part is well secured to your
        supply pipe so all that up and down action doesn’t wear it out or break it
        off.



        Best,

        Eric





        _____

        From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of old_truculent_tim_mccoy
        Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 11:03 AM
        To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [microhydro] Re: drinking water tank tied with penstock



        Thanks for the ideas...

        I think a water storage tank is necessary here because the peak use
        will be pretty high. For several months, especially during the dry
        season, there will be 20+ people living at the site. There will also
        be a few garden beds and a couple of small greenhouses. (And, to be
        on the safe side, there should be storage for firefighting...)
        Probably those demands could be well satisfied with 39 gpm filling up
        a 2" penstock (or more flow, if some of the pipe is larger); however,
        though I don't have hard data yet, I am not too optimistic that there
        is enough flow in the stream in the dry season to sustainably supply
        that flow rate. There could be, but I don't want to gamble on it. In
        any case, I definitely don't want to be greedy and take too much flow
        out of the stream in the dry season. (Also, power shortage in the
        summer would not be an issue since there is a good solar array,
        battery bank, and inverter.) So, everything considered, a storage
        tank seems wise. (But, considering your advice, it also seems wise to
        get data on the summer and fall flows before installing a tank!)

        I did consider having two lines running from the stream -- one
        dedicated to supplying the turbine, another supplying household/other
        demands -- but I think it would be more economical and simple to use
        only one pipe for as much of the length as possible.

        Wrt (with respect to!) the float valve, my understanding is that most
        float valves open up as soon as the water level drops even a slight
        amount. I was looking for a float valve that opens only after the
        level has dropped by a more substantial amount. Rather than filling
        the tank with a slow trickle quite often, the feeder line (which
        branches off from the penstock) to the tank would open up less often
        and fill up the tank with a somewhat higher flow (still just a few
        gpm). But perhaps there is no great advantage to this kind of
        arrangement (I saw one such valve called a "diferential level float
        valve") -- maybe a regular float valve would work fine? What do you
        think?

        thanks

        --- In microhydro@yahoogro <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
        "Jan Nelson" <jan@...> wrote:
        >
        > I use a float and automatic shutoff switch for a water feature pond
        at my house. You can get them at any garden supply center that deals
        with pond supplies. Here is an example, but there are many styles:
        http://www.watergar
        <http://www.watergarden.org/s.nl/it.A/id.89/.f;jsessionid=ac112b2a1f434dd597
        dbf1b347bda66090ba4d5ba192.e3eSbNyQc3mLe3eRbxePah0Le6fznA5Pp7ftolbGmkTy?sc=2
        &category=71>
        den.org/s.nl/it.A/id.89/.f;jsessionid=ac112b2a1f434dd597dbf1b347bda66090ba4d
        5ba192.e3eSbNyQc3mLe3eRbxePah0Le6fznA5Pp7ftolbGmkTy?sc=2&category=71
        >
        > I guess I am wondering why you even want/need a tank unless that
        stream is going to run dry in the Summer/Fall seasons. I use a
        dedicated 1" poly line to supply all my house/garden needs at my cabin
        site. If you did the same, even if it were extended to 2500' (mine is
        3500'), you'd have 100+ psi static pressure in a 1" column of water
        that will provide all the flow you need for bathing, gardening, lawns,
        cooking ,etc... And the good news here is that 1" poly line is pretty
        cheap. I get it at Home Depot for about $25 per 100' which calcs out
        to $625 USD for a dedicated water line for non-turbine watering needs
        and no tank to deal with. I use screen filtering at the pickup and a
        sand filter at the cabin site. Then I use microfiltration for viral
        and bacterial elimination where potable water is required without
        boiling or chemical treatment.
        >
        > Jan
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: old_truculent_tim_mccoy
        > To: microhydro@yahoogro <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:18 PM
        > Subject: [microhydro] drinking water tank tied with penstock
        >
        >
        > It's impressive how helpful everyone is with their comments, thanks.
        > I have noticed no one has recommended that I use the hydro-gravitizer,
        > though :)
        >
        > Here is another simple question now, I'm just looking for the name of
        > a part I need; basically I'd call it a valve controlled by a float
        > switch that opens when the level of a tank drops to a certain level
        > and closes when the tank is full. What is the name of this item?
        >
        > BACKGROUND
        > (you can skip this background part if you like and go ahead
        > to the idea and question)
        > Presently, there is 1900 ft. of 0.75 inch poly feeding an 800 gallon
        > water tank. Both the line and the tank need to be replaced. The
        > budget says the line will probably be 2" poly (though it's possible
        > part of the run can be larger pipe, I'll definitely try to do that)
        > and the tank will be about 2000 gallons. The tank supplies water for
        > household purposes (previous residents drank the water with no
        > filtration, but that will probably change now). The line comes from a
        > small stream.
        >
        > The intake of the new line will move to a slightly larger stream. The
        > new line will be about 2500 ft. (a bit less if possible) of 2" poly.
        > The gross head will be somewhere in the ballpark of 240 to 280 ft.
        > The flow of the stream will easily keep the pipe full in the winter,
        > but I'm not sure about the summer flow yet. It's possible that I'd
        > have to change to smaller nozzles (even though it's just a 2" pipe).
        > (or use ball valves on the nozzles as David Green suggested)
        >
        > The water tank will be placed somewhere around 80 to 100 ft. above the
        > house and the turbine (topography of the site limits how high the tank
        > can go; also, the turbine will actually be a little lower than the
        > house). The tank can't go below the turbine since I want to use
        > gravity to feed water from the tank to the house and gardens.
        >
        > (of course, there is the possibility that the tank could be placed
        > in-line with the penstock if it were a pressure tank, but I have an
        > intuition that would be a wee bit expensive and troublesome...but at
        > least I wouldn't have to worry about insufficient household water
        > pressure)
        >
        > IDEA
        > Therefore, a short branch line will come off the penstock and feed the
        > potable water tank which will be located a good height above the
        > house. A valve on that tank feeder line would be kept
        > turned down all the time to keep the flow into the tank relatively
        > low, just a few gpm. However, rather than have water flowing
        > continuously into the tank, I would have have a second valve on that
        > feeder line. The inflow to the tank would be controlled by some kind
        > of float switch (is that the correct term?) so the tank only fills
        > when the tank level drops a bit. That way, there wouldn't always be a
        > flow into the tank constantly making the hydraulic grade line above
        > the tank drop more steeply; there would only be that pressure drop
        > when the tank feeder is actually opened by the float switch filling
        > the tank. That way, the tank feeder line would not be running often,
        > it would be flowing as seldom as possible; and there would be maximum
        > available pressure at the turbine as much of the time as possible.
        >
        > The nozzle at the turbine would of course be sized so the penstock
        > would be kept full at all times, including when the line to the water
        > tank is open and filling the tank.
        >
        > QUESTION
        > what is the name of the part I need? Basically, I need a valve that
        > opens up the tank feeder when the tank level has dropped a bit
        > (perhaps 10 gallons? or 20? 50? etc.), and then shuts of the tank
        > feeder when the tank is full.
        >
        > Thanks for the feedback
        >
        > (On another note, another idea also occurred to me, it might be a
        > little bit wacky, and probably violates the famous K.I.S.S. advice
        > (for non-native English speakers, "Keep It Simple, Stupid!") but I'll
        > mention it anyway, why not -- the water tank could serve as a one-way
        > surge tank for the penstock if the tank were connected to the penstock
        > by a pipe with a check valve that opens only when penstock pressure
        > drops below a certain amount; when the check valve opens, water from
        > the tank feeds the penstock...
        >
        > ...similarly, you could put a small surge tank like this somewhere
        > along the line, and if you could conveniently measure the water level
        > in the tank, you'd be able to see whether any low-pressure events had
        > happened in that area of the penstock while you were away...then you
        > could set it up again by refilling it through a line that bypasses the
        > check valve...)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.