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RE: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

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  • Soumendu Nandi
    If you can give me the site conditions I can give you a quote if you are interested in buying a readymade turbine.... ... From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 28 11:52 AM
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      If you can give me the site conditions I can give you a quote if you
      are interested in buying a readymade turbine....

      -----Original Message-----
      From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Soumendu Nandi
      Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:29 PM
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

      Hello nils,
      I have done this .. And I used a venus (www.venuspumps.com) boiler feed
      multistage centrifugal pump coupled to a bys/t2 cross flow turbine
      (using a gbx to increase speed)(I believe the complete drawings & plans
      of the turbine are available at the groups files area) .Also I used a
      hartvigsen runner coulpled directly with a pump..but using a turgo is
      not very effective as a turgo requires a higher drive head but it is
      more efficient though.. Now... my system was designed for 120lps flow
      using a 180mm wide * 400mm dia Xflow runner it used a 315mm PVC pipe as
      buried penstock.....a 7:1 helical gbx was used for speed increasing...
      from 200 rpm approx to 1400 rpm ... power generated is around 4.5hp
      theoretically ...it lifted water to 120m height from a fall of 6m
      approx.......around 70 kl/day...i can post to the group the pictures
      once I get my patent... Sometime in june.. it can be done and is no big
      deal...unlike a hydram a clean water source can be used as pumped
      water..i believe the cost of such an option is cheaper than a hydram.a
      hydram is cheap upto 40mt over that range..steel drive pipes have to be
      used and these will make it cost-ineffective
      Regards,
      Soumendu nandi



      -----Original Message-----
      From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Nils Adams
      Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:55 PM
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

      Hello,

      Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
      plan to
      couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can lift
      drinking water into a village at higher altitude

      regards,
      Nils


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • yassi yousef
      Hi,Nils,this is Yousef speaking!!!! Idea of using pumps working reversed as a turbine is quite well known and experienced, but other way round I have not
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 29 7:05 AM
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        Hi,Nils,this is Yousef speaking!!!! Idea of using pumps working reversed as a turbine is quite well known and experienced, but other way round I have not heard of,yet,still I think coupling the turbine and a pump serves better than using the turbine inversly.
        I may be of some help if required.

        Regards
        Yousef Yassi



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      • Max Enfield
        ... We have also have installed a number of crossflow turbines for pumping water. Please refer to the group s archives - message numbers 6850 and 6858 where
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 29 11:56 PM
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          > Hello,
          >
          > Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
          > plan to
          > couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can lift
          > drinking water into a village at higher altitude
          >
          > regards,
          > Nils


          Soumendu Nandi replied:
          >
          > Hello nils,
          > I have done this .. And I used a venus (www.venuspumps.com) boiler feed
          > multistage centrifugal pump coupled to a bys/t2 cross flow turbine ... ...
          >

          We have also have installed a number of crossflow turbines for pumping water.
          Please refer to the group's archives - message numbers 6850 and 6858 where
          earlier this year I responded to a previous posting from Soumendu Nandi on this
          topic.

          Regards,

          Max Enfield
          Planetary Power
          http://www.planetarypower.com.au
        • Nils Adams
          I thank you all for your contribution. With ram pump, it seems to be that to recieves larger discharge and deliver smaller discharge, unless it is complemented
          Message 4 of 14 , May 2, 2006
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            I thank you all for your contribution.

            With ram pump, it seems to be that to recieves larger discharge and deliver
            smaller discharge, unless it is complemented with a high head for the water
            entering the pump. I need the inverse. the entering discharge at higher
            head is smaller than the discharge of the water I want to lift.

            I also have site constraints to use larger equipement. I can use one
            turbine but it would require me a huge constraction costs for the
            discharging water to a river. Yes, I am evaluating the information related
            to turbine pumps.


            Soumendu, what is PAT ? I know that abrevation for pump-and-treat. Can you
            explain me a bit more ?

            Regards,
            Nils



            On 4/28/06, Soumendu Nandi <sngroup_slg@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey has anybody checked out the idea of using a PAT to drive a separate
            > multistage pump...well that would indeed be something...it will be very
            > cost effective..
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com ] On
            > Behalf Of Nils Adams
            > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:55 PM
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?
            >
            > Hello,
            >
            > Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
            > plan to
            > couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can lift
            > drinking water into a village at higher altitude
            >
            > regards,
            > Nils
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Nils Adams
            Soumendu, well, I got the information what PAT mean: pump as turbine http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=196&PgId=1309 But it says that it is good
            Message 5 of 14 , May 2, 2006
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              Soumendu,
              well, I got the information what PAT mean: pump as turbine

              http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=196&PgId=1309

              But it says that it is good for head in the range 13 to 75 m. The gross
              head in the site cannot exceed 6 meters.




              On 5/2/06, Nils Adams <nilsadams@...> wrote:
              >
              > I thank you all for your contribution.
              >
              > With ram pump, it seems to be that to recieves larger discharge and
              > deliver smaller discharge, unless it is complemented with a high head for
              > the water entering the pump. I need the inverse. the entering discharge at
              > higher head is smaller than the discharge of the water I want to lift.
              >
              > I also have site constraints to use larger equipement. I can use one
              > turbine but it would require me a huge constraction costs for the
              > discharging water to a river. Yes, I am evaluating the information related
              > to turbine pumps.
              >
              >
              > Soumendu, what is PAT ? I know that abrevation for pump-and-treat. Can
              > you explain me a bit more ?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Nils
              >
              >
              >
              > On 4/28/06, Soumendu Nandi <sngroup_slg@... > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey has anybody checked out the idea of using a PAT to drive a separate
              > > multistage pump...well that would indeed be something...it will be very
              > > cost effective..
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto: microhydro@yahoogroups.com ]
              > > On
              > > Behalf Of Nils Adams
              > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:55 PM
              > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?
              > >
              > > Hello,
              > >
              > > Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
              > > plan to
              > > couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can lift
              > >
              > > drinking water into a village at higher altitude
              > >
              > > regards,
              > > Nils
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
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            • Soumendu Nandi
              Pat is pump as turbine ........ Nils I don t think you can lift more water than is available at a lower elevation ... the ratio :- (head to be lifted * volume
              Message 6 of 14 , May 2, 2006
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                Pat is pump as turbine ........
                Nils I don't think you can lift more water than is available at a lower
                elevation ... the ratio :- (head to be lifted * volume to be
                lifted)/(head available for powering * volume of water available for
                powering) is typically less than .5 ( in our case it was .43 ) ie eff is
                43% ... now if you want more water you would have to augment your scheme
                with electric / diesel drivenpumpsets..... typical cost for a hydro
                driven pump is 4000 usd .. Our total cost involved ... lifts water for
                making concrete of a larger 800 kw micro hydro project.....




                -----Original Message-----
                From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Nils Adams
                Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:59 PM
                To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

                I thank you all for your contribution.

                With ram pump, it seems to be that to recieves larger discharge and
                deliver
                smaller discharge, unless it is complemented with a high head for the
                water
                entering the pump. I need the inverse. the entering discharge at
                higher
                head is smaller than the discharge of the water I want to lift.

                I also have site constraints to use larger equipement. I can use one
                turbine but it would require me a huge constraction costs for the
                discharging water to a river. Yes, I am evaluating the information
                related
                to turbine pumps.


                Soumendu, what is PAT ? I know that abrevation for pump-and-treat. Can
                you
                explain me a bit more ?

                Regards,
                Nils



                On 4/28/06, Soumendu Nandi <sngroup_slg@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey has anybody checked out the idea of using a PAT to drive a
                separate
                > multistage pump...well that would indeed be something...it will be
                very
                > cost effective..
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com ]
                On
                > Behalf Of Nils Adams
                > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:55 PM
                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?
                >
                > Hello,
                >
                > Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
                > plan to
                > couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can
                lift
                > drinking water into a village at higher altitude
                >
                > regards,
                > Nils
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              • Soumendu Nandi
                Nils your problem is similar to the one I faced...I had to pump water up 100mts to the intake of a larger microhydro project.. As there was no ready way for
                Message 7 of 14 , May 2, 2006
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                  Nils your problem is similar to the one I faced...I had to pump water up
                  100mts to the intake of a larger microhydro project.. As there was no
                  ready way for providing construction water there ...... now I had a
                  feeble fall some 100mts below on a small mountain stream on the other
                  valley to my site .. Pats can be used provided a belt drive / gbx is
                  used to increase speed...

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Nils Adams
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:22 PM
                  To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

                  Soumendu,
                  well, I got the information what PAT mean: pump as turbine

                  http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=196
                  <http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=196&PgId=1309>
                  &PgId=1309

                  But it says that it is good for head in the range 13 to 75 m. The gross
                  head in the site cannot exceed 6 meters.




                  On 5/2/06, Nils Adams <nilsadams@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I thank you all for your contribution.
                  >
                  > With ram pump, it seems to be that to recieves larger discharge and
                  > deliver smaller discharge, unless it is complemented with a high head
                  for
                  > the water entering the pump. I need the inverse. the entering
                  discharge at
                  > higher head is smaller than the discharge of the water I want to lift.
                  >
                  > I also have site constraints to use larger equipement. I can use one
                  > turbine but it would require me a huge constraction costs for the
                  > discharging water to a river. Yes, I am evaluating the information
                  related
                  > to turbine pumps.
                  >
                  >
                  > Soumendu, what is PAT ? I know that abrevation for pump-and-treat.
                  Can
                  > you explain me a bit more ?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Nils
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 4/28/06, Soumendu Nandi <sngroup_slg@... > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hey has anybody checked out the idea of using a PAT to drive a
                  separate
                  > > multistage pump...well that would indeed be something...it will be
                  very
                  > > cost effective..
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  ]
                  > > On
                  > > Behalf Of Nils Adams
                  > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:55 PM
                  > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?
                  > >
                  > > Hello,
                  > >
                  > > Is there a turbine that can serve as pump ? If not, as an option, I
                  > > plan to
                  > > couple a turbine (with the available head) to power a pump that can
                  lift
                  > >
                  > > drinking water into a village at higher altitude
                  > >
                  > > regards,
                  > > Nils
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                • Soumendu Nandi
                  A type of turbine called deriaz turbine works both ways ........... contra rotating the turbine will pump up the water and use the turbine as a pump.. ...
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 2, 2006
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                    A type of turbine called deriaz turbine works both ways ...........
                    contra rotating the turbine will pump up the water and use the turbine
                    as a pump..



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of yassi yousef
                    Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 7:35 PM
                    To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] Turbine-Pump ?

                    Hi,Nils,this is Yousef speaking!!!! Idea of using pumps working
                    reversed as a turbine is quite well known and experienced, but other way
                    round I have not heard of,yet,still I think coupling the turbine and a
                    pump serves better than using the turbine inversly.
                    I may be of some help if required.

                    Regards
                    Yousef Yassi



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