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Re: Mini Hydropower Plant

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  • Willy Mwamba
    Dear Nando, Dear Dimitar Partenov, Dear Carlos, Dear all, Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the project is complex and huge. It requires
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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      Dear Nando,
      Dear Dimitar Partenov,
      Dear Carlos,
      Dear all,

      Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the project is complex and huge. It requires a complete study by a team of specialists. My group is presently in a process of writing a preliminary report that the Ministry of Energy of the Democratic Replubic of Congo will use to convince some financial donors to finance the project. Your contribution is and will be appreciated in that it will help us prepare this preliminary report.
      Bear with me. I still have plenty of questions to ask but let me do it by steps.

      Nando suggested a Francis turbine and a penstock of 1 meter diameter.
      Dimitar suggested a Kaplan or a propeler turbine with siphon intake and a penstock of 1.2 m.
      Carlos suggested instead an axial "S" type turbine.
      I did a bit of search on turbines and indeed all these turbines types fall in the category of turbines that can be use for this head and flow ( H: 15m, Q: 10m³). I know that through your experience you have reasons behind your selection.
      I want to know the advantages and desadvantages of using the type of selected turbines.
      Since I want to have a spare unit also installed. Will it be cheaper to have only one big turbine and a spare turbine or 2 running smaller turbines and a spare one?

      To run all the industrial machineries that are planned to be installed, almost 1MW of power will be needed. That is the reason why the selection of turbines and generators must be so as to give at the other end a 1MW power.

      Thank again for your willing to help

      Willy L. Mwamba
      hydroforce2005@...


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    • Nando
      Willy; Carlos said the S turbine, which is a Kaplan - Simplified. It probably be cheaper to have two - 1 MW each so one will be standby and the definition of
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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        Willy;
        Carlos said the S turbine, which is a Kaplan - Simplified.

        It probably be cheaper to have two - 1 MW each so one will be standby and
        the definition of what is best, it is, STILL, too early to say.

        I suggested 1 meter minimum ( rough and fast estimate) and it may be more
        1.2 or 1.5, specially if in winter times you want to have additional energy
        available and in this case utilizing both generators ( with frequency
        synchronization).
        Planning for future expansion is a MUST if properly planned; the site could
        be made to produce much more if the idea of a reservoir ( lake ) is
        implemented and planned.

        The Turbine type will depend on the site, efficiency and cost of each.

        If you need a minimum power generated, make sure that the storage area
        allows that during the summer months.

        Did you consider the transmission and conversion losses in the equation for
        the required minimum power ?.
        Depending on the area, transmission distance, load locations, Power Factor
        of the loads and some other points the 1MW may require additional 20 to 30
        % generated power.

        Regards

        Nando
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Willy Mwamba" <hydroforce2005@...>
        To: "HydroPower Forum" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:12 AM
        Subject: [microhydro] Re: Mini Hydropower Plant


        Dear Nando,
        Dear Dimitar Partenov,
        Dear Carlos,
        Dear all,

        Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the project is
        complex and huge. It requires a complete study by a team of specialists. My
        group is presently in a process of writing a preliminary report that the
        Ministry of Energy of the Democratic Replubic of Congo will use to convince
        some financial donors to finance the project. Your contribution is and will
        be appreciated in that it will help us prepare this preliminary report.
        Bear with me. I still have plenty of questions to ask but let me do it by
        steps.

        Nando suggested a Francis turbine and a penstock of 1 meter diameter.
        Dimitar suggested a Kaplan or a propeler turbine with siphon intake and a
        penstock of 1.2 m.
        Carlos suggested instead an axial "S" type turbine.
        I did a bit of search on turbines and indeed all these turbines types fall
        in the category of turbines that can be use for this head and flow ( H: 15m,
        Q: 10m³). I know that through your experience you have reasons behind your
        selection.
        I want to know the advantages and desadvantages of using the type of
        selected turbines.
        Since I want to have a spare unit also installed. Will it be cheaper to have
        only one big turbine and a spare turbine or 2 running smaller turbines and a
        spare one?

        To run all the industrial machineries that are planned to be installed,
        almost 1MW of power will be needed. That is the reason why the selection of
        turbines and generators must be so as to give at the other end a 1MW power.

        Thank again for your willing to help

        Willy L. Mwamba
        hydroforce2005@...


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      • oso954
        Willy: You should not be writing a preliminary report for a hydro-electric project. You should instead be writing a preliminary report for a Power System. In
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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          Willy:

          You should not be writing a preliminary report for a hydro-electric
          project.

          You should instead be writing a preliminary report for a Power
          System. In it, you can identify that you have industry loads of about
          1000kW and an undetermined amount of rural electric needs. You can
          also say that there is a hydro-electric resource that is
          preliminarily estimated as being in the 1000-1500kW range.

          The site survey that has been mentioned several times has nothing to
          do with surveying instruments. It is the overall look at the how much
          load, the nature of that load, and how much of that load can be
          supported by the hydro resource. Where the dam/penstock/powerhouse
          can be sited, etc. Size and numbers of generators, what type of
          turbines, spares, etc. Future growth/expansion possibilities.
          The end product of this site survey will be a report that will answer
          all of the questions that you are now asking. It will also answer a
          lot of equally important questions that you have not asked, or even
          thought of.
          It may also include some alternatives, to do a better job, save
          money, etc.

          It was already pointed out that you may need 30 percent more power
          due to Power Factor, transmission distances, etc. Another critical
          item is starting surges. Depending on the industry and the size of
          the motors used, you may need some other type of generation
          paralleled to it, to support the starting surges. Otherwise, you risk
          some periods of severe undervoltage. This may damage other sensitive
          equipment.
          The biggest risk (worst case) is that the starting surges could knock
          the hydro plant off-line. (I've done that, it is not fun)

          The route that you are taking, where you have 1)mis-identified the
          project 2) are concentrating only on the biggest piece 3) attempting
          to over specify what that biggest piece consists of, generally
          results in total project failure. The best you can hope for is a
          mediocre project.

          Answering your additional questions is not "helping you" with the
          project. It is helping YOU, set the project up to FAIL.

          The Minister of Energy, should either provide you with A) persons
          that are capable of doing the site survey report, or B) provide you
          with the funding to get it done.

          Oso

          --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Willy Mwamba <hydroforce2005@y...>
          wrote:
          > Dear Nando,
          > Dear Dimitar Partenov,
          > Dear Carlos,
          > Dear all,
          >
          > Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the
          project is complex and huge. It requires a complete study by a team
          of specialists. My group is presently in a process of writing a
          preliminary report that the Ministry of Energy of the Democratic
          Replubic of Congo will use to convince some financial donors to
          finance the project. Your contribution is and will be appreciated in
          that it will help us prepare this preliminary report.
          > Bear with me. I still have plenty of questions to ask but let me do
          it by steps.
          >
          > Nando suggested a Francis turbine and a penstock of 1 meter
          diameter.
          > Dimitar suggested a Kaplan or a propeler turbine with siphon intake
          and a penstock of 1.2 m.
          > Carlos suggested instead an axial "S" type turbine.
          > I did a bit of search on turbines and indeed all these turbines
          types fall in the category of turbines that can be use for this head
          and flow ( H: 15m, Q: 10m³). I know that through your experience you
          have reasons behind your selection.
          > I want to know the advantages and desadvantages of using the type
          of selected turbines.
          > Since I want to have a spare unit also installed. Will it be
          cheaper to have only one big turbine and a spare turbine or 2 running
          smaller turbines and a spare one?
          >
          > To run all the industrial machineries that are planned to be
          installed, almost 1MW of power will be needed. That is the reason why
          the selection of turbines and generators must be so as to give at the
          other end a 1MW power.
          >
          > Thank again for your willing to help
          >
          > Willy L. Mwamba
          > hydroforce2005@y...
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • himani goyal
          Hello Everybody I am working in the area of small hydro power plant.I have a doubt.Can anyone help me ? What are the advantages / disadvantages of placing a
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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            Hello Everybody
            I am working in the area of small hydro power plant.I
            have a doubt.Can anyone help me ?
            What are the advantages / disadvantages of placing a
            Gate/ Valve at the top of penstock (i.e. before the
            penstock and after forebay tank) as compared to
            placing the Gate / Valve after the penstock (i.e. at
            the bottom of penstock and before the turbine) for
            load frequency flow control ?
            Kindly reply me back asap.
            Many thanks
            Himani

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          • Dan
            Dear Willy: From a financing/economic/commercial perspective, I would be happy to look at your proposal to get donor financing. Come to think of it, attached
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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              Dear Willy:



              From a financing/economic/commercial perspective, I would be happy to look
              at your proposal to get donor financing. Come to think of it, attached is
              a checklist of issues the donors would like to see.



              All the best,

              Dan



              Daniel A. Potash

              Sigma Capital / EECE / AEAI
              <http://www.powerprojectfinancing.com/> www.PowerProjectFinancing.com

              70A Longview Avenue
              San Anselmo, CA 94960
              1-415-457-3251 Tel
              93-70-161-755 (Kabul)

              _____

              From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Willy Mwamba
              Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:42 AM
              To: HydroPower Forum
              Subject: [microhydro] Re: Mini Hydropower Plant



              Dear Nando,
              Dear Dimitar Partenov,
              Dear Carlos,
              Dear all,

              Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the project is
              complex and huge. It requires a complete study by a team of specialists. My
              group is presently in a process of writing a preliminary report that the
              Ministry of Energy of the Democratic Replubic of Congo will use to convince
              some financial donors to finance the project. Your contribution is and will
              be appreciated in that it will help us prepare this preliminary report.
              Bear with me. I still have plenty of questions to ask but let me do it by
              steps.

              Nando suggested a Francis turbine and a penstock of 1 meter diameter.
              Dimitar suggested a Kaplan or a propeler turbine with siphon intake and a
              penstock of 1.2 m.
              Carlos suggested instead an axial "S" type turbine.
              I did a bit of search on turbines and indeed all these turbines types fall
              in the category of turbines that can be use for this head and flow ( H: 15m,
              Q: 10m³). I know that through your experience you have reasons behind your
              selection.
              I want to know the advantages and desadvantages of using the type of
              selected turbines.
              Since I want to have a spare unit also installed. Will it be cheaper to have
              only one big turbine and a spare turbine or 2 running smaller turbines and a
              spare one?

              To run all the industrial machineries that are planned to be installed,
              almost 1MW of power will be needed. That is the reason why the selection of
              turbines and generators must be so as to give at the other end a 1MW power.

              Thank again for your willing to help

              Willy L. Mwamba
              hydroforce2005@...


              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carlos Bonifetti
              Willy, Nando, all: OK. Concepts below are a good advice. Willy: Take in account that one turbine set is cheaper than two of half power. Flexibility operation
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 2, 2005
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                Willy, Nando, all:

                OK. Concepts below are a good advice.
                Willy: Take in account that one turbine set is cheaper than two of half
                power. Flexibility operation flexibility will be considered for the scheme
                choice, one or two machines. I think that 3 machines must be discarded.
                Regards,
                Carlos
                --------------------------------


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
                To: "HydroPower Forum" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                Cc: <hydroforce2005@...>
                Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:18 PM
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Mini Hydropower Plant


                Willy;
                Carlos said the S turbine, which is a Kaplan - Simplified.

                It probably be cheaper to have two - 1 MW each so one will be standby and
                the definition of what is best, it is, STILL, too early to say.

                I suggested 1 meter minimum ( rough and fast estimate) and it may be more
                1.2 or 1.5, specially if in winter times you want to have additional energy
                available and in this case utilizing both generators ( with frequency
                synchronization).
                Planning for future expansion is a MUST if properly planned; the site could
                be made to produce much more if the idea of a reservoir ( lake ) is
                implemented and planned.

                The Turbine type will depend on the site, efficiency and cost of each.

                If you need a minimum power generated, make sure that the storage area
                allows that during the summer months.

                Did you consider the transmission and conversion losses in the equation for
                the required minimum power ?.
                Depending on the area, transmission distance, load locations, Power Factor
                of the loads and some other points the 1MW may require additional 20 to 30
                % generated power.

                Regards

                Nando
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Willy Mwamba" <hydroforce2005@...>
                To: "HydroPower Forum" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:12 AM
                Subject: [microhydro] Re: Mini Hydropower Plant


                Dear Nando,
                Dear Dimitar Partenov,
                Dear Carlos,
                Dear all,

                Thank you very much for your feedback. It is clear that the project is
                complex and huge. It requires a complete study by a team of specialists. My
                group is presently in a process of writing a preliminary report that the
                Ministry of Energy of the Democratic Replubic of Congo will use to convince
                some financial donors to finance the project. Your contribution is and will
                be appreciated in that it will help us prepare this preliminary report.
                Bear with me. I still have plenty of questions to ask but let me do it by
                steps.

                Nando suggested a Francis turbine and a penstock of 1 meter diameter.
                Dimitar suggested a Kaplan or a propeler turbine with siphon intake and a
                penstock of 1.2 m.
                Carlos suggested instead an axial "S" type turbine.
                I did a bit of search on turbines and indeed all these turbines types fall
                in the category of turbines that can be use for this head and flow ( H: 15m,
                Q: 10m³). I know that through your experience you have reasons behind your
                selection.
                I want to know the advantages and desadvantages of using the type of
                selected turbines.
                Since I want to have a spare unit also installed. Will it be cheaper to have
                only one big turbine and a spare turbine or 2 running smaller turbines and a
                spare one?

                To run all the industrial machineries that are planned to be installed,
                almost 1MW of power will be needed. That is the reason why the selection of
                turbines and generators must be so as to give at the other end a 1MW power.

                Thank again for your willing to help

                Willy L. Mwamba
                hydroforce2005@...


                ---------------------------------
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              • rkweir@aol.com
                Himani, It might be best to have two valves, one at the top of the penstock for isolation and one at the bottom for the control that you mention. It is
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 2, 2005
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                  Himani,

                  It might be best to have two valves, one at the top of the penstock for
                  isolation and one at the bottom for the control that you mention. It is difficult
                  and extremely unwise to try and control from the valve at the top of the
                  penstock, like trying to push a string. The likely scenario would be to
                  partially drain the penstock and then open the valve at the top. When the water
                  columns collide you will develop a water hammer such as you have never seen and
                  don't want to see. If you don't have enough money for two valves go with a
                  single valve at the bottom of the penstock. S l o w l y is operating rule number
                  1, avoid shutting the valve down too rapidly. Some of my big penstocks require
                  1/2 hour to make a major rate change. Your small Hydro is a bit more
                  forgiving but the same physics apply. Good luck.

                  Bob

                  Robert K. Weir P.E.
                  Hydroscreen CO.
                  _www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rob_linschoten@telus.net
                  In my very small setup I have a couple of 6 gate valves situated at both ends of the pipe, as proposed.In addition to Robert s cautionary notes I would also
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 3, 2005
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                    In my very small setup I have a couple of 6" gate valves situated at both ends
                    of the pipe, as proposed.In addition to Robert's cautionary notes I would also
                    remind you to have a adequately-sized vacuum release/surge tank just behind the
                    penstock valve in case that is ever closed before the turbine one is.

                    Rob





                    Quoting rkweir@...:

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Himani,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It might be best to have two valves, one at the top of the penstock for 
                    >
                    > isolation and one at the bottom for the control that you mention. It is 
                    > difficult
                    >
                    > and extremely unwise to try and control from the valve at the top of  the
                    >
                    > penstock, like trying to push a string. The likely scenario would be to 
                    >
                    > partially drain the penstock and then open the valve at the top. When the
                    > water 
                    >
                    > columns collide you will develop a water hammer such as you have never seen
                    > and 
                    >
                    > don't want to see. If you don't have enough money for two valves go with a 
                    >
                    > single valve at the bottom of the penstock. S l o w l y is operating rule
                    > number 
                    >
                    > 1, avoid shutting the valve down too rapidly. Some of my big penstocks
                    > require
                    >
                    > 1/2 hour to make a major rate change. Your small Hydro is a bit more
                    >
                    > forgiving  but the same physics apply.  Good luck.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bob
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Robert K. Weir P.E.
                    >
                    > Hydroscreen CO.
                    >
                    > _www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                    > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge
                    > and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                  • Nando
                    Himani: The penstock should have a valve and at the same time a T with a piece of pipe above the intake level for cleaning purposes, there are many pipes that
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 3, 2005
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                      Himani:

                      The penstock should have a valve and at the same time a T with a piece of
                      pipe above the intake level for cleaning purposes, there are many pipes that
                      are clogged with algae and debris, specially if a good filter is not
                      installed to the intake, also at the end of the pipe run another valve to
                      close the system when in repairs or maintenance, in some cases a T has been
                      installed with a valve for a secondary use of the pressured water.

                      The added cost of the upper arrangement is minimum compared the usefulness
                      of the posterior use of it.
                      Closing or opening either valve should be done slowly for at least 10
                      seconds for about every 20 meters of head and pipe run.

                      Regards

                      Nando


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <rkweir@...>
                      To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:52 PM
                      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Gates/Valves at top of penstock


                      > Himani,
                      >
                      > It might be best to have two valves, one at the top of the penstock for
                      > isolation and one at the bottom for the control that you mention. It is
                      difficult
                      > and extremely unwise to try and control from the valve at the top of the
                      > penstock, like trying to push a string. The likely scenario would be to
                      > partially drain the penstock and then open the valve at the top. When the
                      water
                      > columns collide you will develop a water hammer such as you have never
                      seen and
                      > don't want to see. If you don't have enough money for two valves go with a
                      > single valve at the bottom of the penstock. S l o w l y is operating rule
                      number
                      > 1, avoid shutting the valve down too rapidly. Some of my big penstocks
                      require
                      > 1/2 hour to make a major rate change. Your small Hydro is a bit more
                      > forgiving but the same physics apply. Good luck.
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > Robert K. Weir P.E.
                      > Hydroscreen CO.
                      > _www.hydroscreen.com_ (http://www.hydroscreen.com)
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                      http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                      charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                      >
                      > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                      provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                      endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                      >
                      > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
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                      >
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                      >
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