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Re: Intermittant flow with a siphon. How?

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  • ericnoharet
    An old system to make an automatic siphon Originaly for spinkler gardening Extract in French of la nature publication See it at :
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 2, 2004
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      An old system to make an automatic siphon
      Originaly for spinkler gardening

      Extract in French of "la nature" publication

      See it at :

      http://cnum.cnam.fr/CGI/fpage.cgi?4KY28.30/62/100/432/0/0

      I think it's interisting for your case

      Eric






      --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "hwmdu" <dairvine@b...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > We have a banki 12V system. It is self starting (doesn't draw power
      > from a battery). We would like to use a siphon to run the system
      > intermittently when the flow is low. When we tried this it didn't
      > work. We got a continuous flow at a low rate through the 4 inch
      > feedpipe and got no power.
      >
      > The siphon was done by putting the pipe through the side of a
      header
      > tank and bending the inlet down by a couple of feet.
      >
      > Does anyone know how to make this work?
    • hwmdu
      Hi, thanks for comments, I think efficency is rather low. The banki is perhaps not the best and I am using an old car alternator. Also cable loss. I live above
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 3, 2004
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        Hi,
        thanks for comments,
        I think efficency is rather low. The banki is perhaps not the best
        and I am using an old car alternator. Also cable loss. I live above
        header tank.
        However its enough for washing machine, computer, TV, lights etc
        using ex-milk float batteries rewired to 12v. I don't need to wind up
        the generator in winter.

        Penstock is 2" internal diameter, not 4, sorry, and I think header
        tank is rather less than 500 gallons, it lasts for about half an hour.
        The banki inlet can be adjusted from about a quarter of the 2" pipe
        to full width of pipe. It doesn't make a huge difference to flow or
        power.

        I like ideas with toilet like systems, but am not sure how they
        work. I will try and find out. Brilliant suggestion! Thanks very much
        for that. It may even be possible to adapt one.

        If I could only get an intermittent siphon going?? Supposed to work
        ok for natural water springs.
        The system, especially the alternator needs quite a bit of power to
        just drive the field, before I get any power out. This summer the
        water pretty much dried up. The current nozzle adjustment range is
        not enough, and I would have to keep fiddling with it. Intermittent
        flow is automatic, and I think higher efficiency.

        Duncan.

        --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "JTDesign" <jtdesign@m...> wrote:
        >
        > How about an elementary simple solution with
        > minimal moving parts and failure points! A
        > previous post suggested the toilet flapper valve
        > concept. About as simple as it can get and
        > pretty well mature as a technology!
        >
        > Now, instead of using the flush handle to
        > actuate it, how about some chain and a float.
        > Set the chain length so the float will actuate
        > the valve when the tank is almost full.
        > Elegant? Of course a float valve would have to
        > be fabricated to match the pipe size of the
        > penstock, but that would not be much of a chore.
        >
        > This concept requires no special sensors,
        > electronics, or other sophisticated components
        > and would almost never need maintenance.
        >
        > Have fun,
        > Jay
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Nando" <nando37@c...>
        > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:36 AM
        > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
        > with a siphon. How?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The solution for sporadic charging is to have a
        > pressure detector to
        > determine a full tank, then an auto valve to
        > open to charge, then detecting
        > the pressure empty tank level to close the
        > valve.
        >
        > What is needed is the Banki nozzle size and the
        > water usage at good water
        > flow -- and the low water available to see what
        > type of nozzle maybe needed
        > to run the Banki under these conditions-- for
        > possible full time usage and
        > not sporadic use.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Nando
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "ReadFamily" <dtzjread@c...>
        > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:26 AM
        > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
        > with a siphon. How?
        >
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I think that the replies to this thread are
        > > getting away from the original
        > question.
        > >
        > > My understanding of the situation is this:
        > > When the water flow is adequate the Banki can
        > > be run full time (no
        > problem), but during dry spells the water flow
        > is not adequate so a scheme
        > was designed to store water in a 500 gallon tank
        > which would provide
        > intermittent full flow to run the Banki.
        > > The question is how to make this work.
        > > Initial attempt with a flexible pipe running
        > > into the side of the header
        > tank did not produce intermittent full flow, but
        > constant low flow.
        > > I dont have an answer - it sounds a bit like
        > > the solution could be along
        > the same lines as the flushing of a toilet. The
        > key thing is to have two
        > distinct states - no flow and full flow. If this
        > could be done with a
        > periodically fired flapper valve then that would
        > work, but maybe there is
        > some way to make a syphon system work where
        > there is no valve. Any ideas?
        > >
        > > Dominic Read
        > > Georgia, USA
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > > removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
        > > business directory at
        > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
        > please register free of
        > charge and be exposed to the microhydro
        > community world wide!
        > >
        > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are
        > > added by Yahoogroups who
        > provides us with free email group services. The
        > microhydro-group does not
        > endorse products or support the advertisements
        > in any way.
        > >
        > > More information on micro hydropower at
        > > http://microhydropower.net
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
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        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
        >
        > Does your company feature in the microhydro
        > business directory at
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      • Nando
        Duncan: The Flapper system is easy: Flapper needs to have a float, just large enough that pulls the flap up once the chain is pulled. the arming of the flap
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 4, 2004
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          Duncan:

          The Flapper system is easy:

          Flapper needs to have a float, just large enough that pulls the flap up once
          the chain is pulled. the arming of the flap needs to belong enough to allow
          raising the flap at least two pipe diameters high to move away from the
          water suction action.

          The way to do an automatic flap pulling is using a float that pulls at least
          3 times the flap area time the height of the tank ( feet * 0.45) .

          Now the fast flap action: if the pull is allowed by raising water, then the
          flap will raise just enough to allow water to escape at low rate and the
          flap will not raise high enough to allow full flow.

          You need a snap action : large float with a weight ( for re-arming) and a
          second weight for the snap action; a fast push up to raise the Flap full
          open when this weight is pushed away from the float.

          If you are really interested in this set up ( if you are going to build it
          then let me know)

          Nando








          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "hwmdu" <dairvine@...>
          To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:44 PM
          Subject: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow with a siphon. How?


          >
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          > thanks for comments,
          > I think efficency is rather low. The banki is perhaps not the best
          > and I am using an old car alternator. Also cable loss. I live above
          > header tank.
          > However its enough for washing machine, computer, TV, lights etc
          > using ex-milk float batteries rewired to 12v. I don't need to wind up
          > the generator in winter.
          >
          > Penstock is 2" internal diameter, not 4, sorry, and I think header
          > tank is rather less than 500 gallons, it lasts for about half an hour.
          > The banki inlet can be adjusted from about a quarter of the 2" pipe
          > to full width of pipe. It doesn't make a huge difference to flow or
          > power.
          >
          > I like ideas with toilet like systems, but am not sure how they
          > work. I will try and find out. Brilliant suggestion! Thanks very much
          > for that. It may even be possible to adapt one.
          >
          > If I could only get an intermittent siphon going?? Supposed to work
          > ok for natural water springs.
          > The system, especially the alternator needs quite a bit of power to
          > just drive the field, before I get any power out. This summer the
          > water pretty much dried up. The current nozzle adjustment range is
          > not enough, and I would have to keep fiddling with it. Intermittent
          > flow is automatic, and I think higher efficiency.
          >
          > Duncan.
          >
          > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "JTDesign" <jtdesign@m...> wrote:
          > >
          > > How about an elementary simple solution with
          > > minimal moving parts and failure points! A
          > > previous post suggested the toilet flapper valve
          > > concept. About as simple as it can get and
          > > pretty well mature as a technology!
          > >
          > > Now, instead of using the flush handle to
          > > actuate it, how about some chain and a float.
          > > Set the chain length so the float will actuate
          > > the valve when the tank is almost full.
          > > Elegant? Of course a float valve would have to
          > > be fabricated to match the pipe size of the
          > > penstock, but that would not be much of a chore.
          > >
          > > This concept requires no special sensors,
          > > electronics, or other sophisticated components
          > > and would almost never need maintenance.
          > >
          > > Have fun,
          > > Jay
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Nando" <nando37@c...>
          > > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:36 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
          > > with a siphon. How?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The solution for sporadic charging is to have a
          > > pressure detector to
          > > determine a full tank, then an auto valve to
          > > open to charge, then detecting
          > > the pressure empty tank level to close the
          > > valve.
          > >
          > > What is needed is the Banki nozzle size and the
          > > water usage at good water
          > > flow -- and the low water available to see what
          > > type of nozzle maybe needed
          > > to run the Banki under these conditions-- for
          > > possible full time usage and
          > > not sporadic use.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Nando
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "ReadFamily" <dtzjread@c...>
          > > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:26 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
          > > with a siphon. How?
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I think that the replies to this thread are
          > > > getting away from the original
          > > question.
          > > >
          > > > My understanding of the situation is this:
          > > > When the water flow is adequate the Banki can
          > > > be run full time (no
          > > problem), but during dry spells the water flow
          > > is not adequate so a scheme
          > > was designed to store water in a 500 gallon tank
          > > which would provide
          > > intermittent full flow to run the Banki.
          > > > The question is how to make this work.
          > > > Initial attempt with a flexible pipe running
          > > > into the side of the header
          > > tank did not produce intermittent full flow, but
          > > constant low flow.
          > > > I dont have an answer - it sounds a bit like
          > > > the solution could be along
          > > the same lines as the flushing of a toilet. The
          > > key thing is to have two
          > > distinct states - no flow and full flow. If this
          > > could be done with a
          > > periodically fired flapper valve then that would
          > > work, but maybe there is
          > > some way to make a syphon system work where
          > > there is no valve. Any ideas?
          > > >
          > > > Dominic Read
          > > > Georgia, USA
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > > removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
          > > > business directory at
          > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
          > > please register free of
          > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro
          > > community world wide!
          > > >
          > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are
          > > > added by Yahoogroups who
          > > provides us with free email group services. The
          > > microhydro-group does not
          > > endorse products or support the advertisements
          > > in any way.
          > > >
          > > > More information on micro hydropower at
          > > > http://microhydropower.net
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
          > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
          > >
          > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
          > > business directory at
          > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
          > > please register free of charge and be exposed to
          > > the microhydro community world wide!
          > >
          > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
          > > by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email
          > > group services. The microhydro-group does not
          > > endorse products or support the advertisements
          > > in any way.
          > >
          > > More information on micro hydropower at
          > > http://microhydropower.net
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
          > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > > microhydro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
          http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
          charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
          >
          > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
          provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
          endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
          >
          > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
          >
          > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
          microhydro-unsubscribe@...
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          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
        • Ricardo Tsukamoto
          Dear Duncan, Your problem of starting the siphon can probably be solved by the solutions proposed in the article: GARRETT, Roger E.. 1991. Principles of
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 4, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Duncan,
            Your problem of starting the siphon can probably be solved by the
            solutions proposed in the article:

            GARRETT, Roger E.. 1991. Principles of Siphons. Journal of the World
            Aquaculture Society, 22(1): 1-9. March 1991.

            According to Garrett, "the simple siphon is convenient for some
            applications, but it does not lend itself to automatic cycling
            operations". For that he describes the "covered standpipe" and the
            "trapped-outlet" siphon designs.

            In case you have difficulty in obtaining the article, I may scan it and
            and send it to you.

            Regards,
            Ricardo Y. Tsukamoto
            Sao Paulo, Brazil

            hwmdu wrote:

            >Hi,
            >thanks for comments,
            >I think efficency is rather low. The banki is perhaps not the best
            >and I am using an old car alternator. Also cable loss. I live above
            >header tank.
            >However its enough for washing machine, computer, TV, lights etc
            >using ex-milk float batteries rewired to 12v. I don't need to wind up
            >the generator in winter.
            >
            >Penstock is 2" internal diameter, not 4, sorry, and I think header
            >tank is rather less than 500 gallons, it lasts for about half an hour.
            >The banki inlet can be adjusted from about a quarter of the 2" pipe
            >to full width of pipe. It doesn't make a huge difference to flow or
            >power.
            >
            > I like ideas with toilet like systems, but am not sure how they
            >work. I will try and find out. Brilliant suggestion! Thanks very much
            >for that. It may even be possible to adapt one.
            >
            >If I could only get an intermittent siphon going?? Supposed to work
            >ok for natural water springs.
            >The system, especially the alternator needs quite a bit of power to
            >just drive the field, before I get any power out. This summer the
            >water pretty much dried up. The current nozzle adjustment range is
            >not enough, and I would have to keep fiddling with it. Intermittent
            >flow is automatic, and I think higher efficiency.
            >
            >Duncan.
            >
            >--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "JTDesign" <jtdesign@m...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>How about an elementary simple solution with
            >>minimal moving parts and failure points! A
            >>previous post suggested the toilet flapper valve
            >>concept. About as simple as it can get and
            >>pretty well mature as a technology!
            >>
            >>Now, instead of using the flush handle to
            >>actuate it, how about some chain and a float.
            >>Set the chain length so the float will actuate
            >>the valve when the tank is almost full.
            >>Elegant? Of course a float valve would have to
            >>be fabricated to match the pipe size of the
            >>penstock, but that would not be much of a chore.
            >>
            >>This concept requires no special sensors,
            >>electronics, or other sophisticated components
            >>and would almost never need maintenance.
            >>
            >>Have fun,
            >>Jay
            >>
            >>
            >>----- Original Message -----
            >>From: "Nando" <nando37@c...>
            >>To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
            >>Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:36 AM
            >>Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
            >>with a siphon. How?
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>The solution for sporadic charging is to have a
            >>pressure detector to
            >>determine a full tank, then an auto valve to
            >>open to charge, then detecting
            >>the pressure empty tank level to close the
            >>valve.
            >>
            >>What is needed is the Banki nozzle size and the
            >>water usage at good water
            >>flow -- and the low water available to see what
            >>type of nozzle maybe needed
            >>to run the Banki under these conditions-- for
            >>possible full time usage and
            >>not sporadic use.
            >>
            >>Regards
            >>
            >>Nando
            >>
            >>----- Original Message -----
            >>From: "ReadFamily" <dtzjread@c...>
            >>To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
            >>Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:26 AM
            >>Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Intermittant flow
            >>with a siphon. How?
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>>I think that the replies to this thread are
            >>>getting away from the original
            >>>
            >>>
            >>question.
            >>
            >>
            >>>My understanding of the situation is this:
            >>>When the water flow is adequate the Banki can
            >>>be run full time (no
            >>>
            >>>
            >>problem), but during dry spells the water flow
            >>is not adequate so a scheme
            >>was designed to store water in a 500 gallon tank
            >>which would provide
            >>intermittent full flow to run the Banki.
            >>
            >>
            >>>The question is how to make this work.
            >>>Initial attempt with a flexible pipe running
            >>>into the side of the header
            >>>
            >>>
            >>tank did not produce intermittent full flow, but
            >>constant low flow.
            >>
            >>
            >>>I dont have an answer - it sounds a bit like
            >>>the solution could be along
            >>>
            >>>
            >>the same lines as the flushing of a toilet. The
            >>key thing is to have two
            >>distinct states - no flow and full flow. If this
            >>could be done with a
            >>periodically fired flapper valve then that would
            >>work, but maybe there is
            >>some way to make a syphon system work where
            >>there is no valve. Any ideas?
            >>
            >>
            >>>Dominic Read
            >>>Georgia, USA
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been
            >>>removed]
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>Does your company feature in the microhydro
            >>>business directory at
            >>>
            >>>
            >>http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
            >>please register free of
            >>charge and be exposed to the microhydro
            >>community world wide!
            >>
            >>
            >>>NOTE: The advertisements in this email are
            >>>added by Yahoogroups who
            >>>
            >>>
            >>provides us with free email group services. The
            >>microhydro-group does not
            >>endorse products or support the advertisements
            >>in any way.
            >>
            >>
            >>>More information on micro hydropower at
            >>>http://microhydropower.net
            >>>
            >>>To unsubscribe: send empty message to
            >>>
            >>>
            >>microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
            >>
            >>
            >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
            >>
            >>Does your company feature in the microhydro
            >>business directory at
            >>http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
            >>please register free of charge and be exposed to
            >>the microhydro community world wide!
            >>
            >>NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
            >>by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email
            >>group services. The microhydro-group does not
            >>endorse products or support the advertisements
            >>in any way.
            >>
            >>More information on micro hydropower at
            >>http://microhydropower.net
            >>
            >>To unsubscribe: send empty message to
            >>microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
            >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >> microhydro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
            >
            >NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
            >
            >More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
            >
            >To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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