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Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025

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  • Hoppy
    Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a cheap way to set up a small system... Could you please keep me informed? Chris ... From:
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 29, 2004
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      Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a cheap
      way to set up a small system...

      Could you please keep me informed?

      Chris

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
      To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
      Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025


      >
      >
      >
      > Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
      > when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
      > idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
      > The Dragon
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear all,
      > >
      > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
      > > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
      > > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
      > >
      > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
      > > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
      > replacement
      > > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
      > >
      > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
      > supplied,
      > > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
      > plastic
      > > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
      > > previous ones.
      > >
      > > Let us talk...
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > Max
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Evans Engineering
      With regard to water turbine runners, it is not necessary to go to one piece lost wax castings, although this is a nice solution for small complex shapes. I
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 1, 2004
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        With regard to water turbine runners, it is not necessary to go to 'one
        piece' lost wax castings, although this is a nice solution for small
        complex shapes. I started with sand cast (cast iron and later steel)
        components that are welded together. On moderate heads the epoxy pain
        was still in place on the runner after 10 years!

        If you don't keep the silt out, it will destroy any runner in a very
        short time. Carbon steel is fine for most installations and will
        probably out live the owner. Stainless steel and bronze are nice but not
        necessary for basic projects and it is much easier to weld. If people
        also want to make the dreaded crossflow, I would suggest that runner is
        cast in a similar way.

        If enough people are interested, I will try and get funding to write it
        all down (it is rather difficult to run a small business and provide a
        free information service for NGOs, which is what I have being trying to
        do)

        I could produce a batch of cheap steel runners or help you get started
        with foundry patterns. Anyway, let me know if I can help and what time
        scale you are looking at.
        Regards
        Rupert
        info@...
      • Nando
        The future of Plastic Buckets depends on the head and the debris content in the water, especially sand like material. The head and nozzle diameter enter in the
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 1, 2004
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          The future of Plastic Buckets depends on the head and the debris content in
          the water, especially sand like material.
          The head and nozzle diameter enter in the play, as well, the design of the
          bucket for neck breaks, or even the buckets themselves.

          NO plastic buckets were available for the work indicated below, Pelton and
          Quasi-Turgo Turbines made on Bronze and some in cast iron.
          The most damaging effect is the sand in the water, in some sites two tanks
          in series, we had to determine the desanding time of the water to define the
          desanding tanks volume before delivering the water to the pipe - also, the
          construction of the TWO tanks to include proper delivery of the water to
          REDUCE stirring action of any sand, already settled. in the first or
          second tank.

          Both tanks, in series, the first tank, receiving the water not in a stream
          through a pipe but the water delivered on a wide flat leveled surface to
          reduce water stirring action, same way for the second tank.

          One critical aspect was the length of the tank, the longer the better for
          the water to have the time to allow the sand to settle on the bottom. some
          times we had a ratio of 1 to 10 ( width to length).

          The second tank to do final very small debris cleaning, ratio 1 to 5.
          Incredibly the amount of "dust" sand deposited in the second tank.

          Volume of the first tank :settling time (to attain better than 80 % sand
          reduction) times (liter/sec)^2.5 = (liter-second)/1000 =M^3 of the tank.
          Turbine with 10 liter/sec
          So: 30 seconds for 80 % desanding time, times 10^2.5 = (9486 l-sec)/1000 =
          9.5 M^3 tank

          This was an empirical formula that was derived observing the local streams
          carrying sand and other materials and in some cases the volume of the first
          tank was increased to the third power.
          Most of the sand was deposited close to the intake area, with the finer
          deposited farther from the intake.
          Sand removal was done sometimes automatically via a large pipe placed on the
          bottom close to the intake area.

          Washed sand ideal for concrete work.

          Regards

          Nando




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...>
          To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:50 AM
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025




          Hi Michael, Max and all:

          Well friends, time and more thinking would be the future for plastic
          buckets. In a 8 kW, 200 m head vertical Pico Pelton direct drive in a
          Switzerland dairy I can see, in 1992, that plastic buckets were broken
          frequently; the high head would be the problem. We must introduce first the
          most cheaper and reliable pico sets for the chilean geographic condition. We
          have a very very long country and trips/communication are a big problem, as
          Max said.
          I'm involved in a rural microhydro project in central Chile, wih 2 MPH
          Plants small villages and hat needs five picohydro sets 1 - 1.5 kW for
          isolated peasant dwellers. Enginnering is ready since some 6 month ago. This
          is an opportunity for use standard kits for electricity and direct drive
          tools. I'm following up this project that will be implemented about
          November. Dicember 2004.

          Regards,

          Carlos
          ----------------------------------------------------------------


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Max Klohn
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:35 AM
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



          Hi Michael,


          The failed runners I am talking of are injection moulded individual
          buckets which are then assembled on a metallic or metal-plastic axis
          then glued with epoxy. They do not stand up to vibrations.

          I am not ruling plastic out, especially monobloc, but given the previous
          local experience of CLIENTS it would be hard to sell anything "plastic".
          Especially if people have to add an expensive and burdensome trip for
          each replacement. As Carlos Bonifetti stated, stuff in remote places has
          to be sturdy and need as little replacements as possible. Just think of
          the additional problems in communications, access etc.

          The low RPM Smartdrives and plastic runners certainly fit a slot in
          relatively low head/high flow situations.

          Max

          El mié, 27 de 10 de 2004 a las 17:06, Michael Lawley escribió:
          > Hi,
          >
          > Rather than rule out a particular material based on a previous
          experience it might be prudent to take up my offer to try a free sample. We
          use plastic runners on our Pelton turbines and do not have problems. They
          are perfectly balanced, low mass, low cost and very easy and simple to
          replace if after several years they do need replacing. We supply all our
          customers with a spare set of Pelton spoons for when that day arrives.
          >
          > We can supply volume orders of 25 kg at a time (about 1000 of them) at a
          very good price. Local labour can then assemble them onto steel disc hubs.
          We've been making them for nearly 2 years and to date have not had any
          problems.
          >
          > I think you might be comparing the cast epoxy type runner with injection
          moulded ones.
          >
          > We can also supply volume smart drive generators at a very good price
          and would even consider sharing the risk if there are some entrepreneurs
          out three looking to set up business making good low cost Pelton turbines
          with efficient low speed PMG generators. Making this type of equipment
          affordable, simple and easy to fix using parts that are plentiful is
          important.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Regards
          >
          >
          >
          > Michael Lawley
          > Renewable Energy Engineer
          > EcoInnovation
          > 671 Kent Road
          > R.D.1
          > New Plymouth
          > New Zealand
          >
          > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
          > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
          > email: ecoinn@...
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Max Klohn
          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:48 AM
          > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear all,
          >
          > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
          > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
          > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
          >
          > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
          > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
          replacement
          > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
          >
          > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally supplied,
          > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more plastic
          > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
          > previous ones.
          >
          > Let us talk...
          > Regards,
          >
          > Max
          >
          > El lun, 25 de 10 de 2004 a las 16:07, Carlos Bonifetti escribió:
          > > Thanks to all; Peltric sets from Mr. A.M. Nakarmi industry could be
          a good alternative for mountain dwellers.
          > > For plastic runners from Michael, let me study and talk about them
          with Max, first.
          > > Regards,
          > > Carlos
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Stewart Craine
          > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 2:12 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Can I also suggest a complete unit from Kathmandu Metal
          Industries, which is boxed up and ready to operate - called a Peltric set.
          > >
          > > www.nepalmicrohydropower.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > microhydro@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > There are 2 messages in this issue.
          > >
          > > Topics in this digest:
          > >
          > > 1. Re: chinese turbine sets
          > > From: Michael Lawley
          > > 2. Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
          > > From: Ron and Diane
          > >
          > >
          > >
          ________________________________________________________________________
          > >
          ________________________________________________________________________
          > >
          > > Message: 1
          > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:30:16 +1300
          > > From: Michael Lawley
          > > Subject: Re: chinese turbine sets
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Carlos,
          > >
          > > Have you tried one of our plastic Pelton rotors? The buckets can
          be quickly replaced and are very cheap to purchase if bought in bulk. We use
          them commonly in the 45-80m range without significance ware issues. Above
          100m accelerated wear be expected but the cost to replace them is little.
          > >
          > > I am happy to send you a set for testing. We can make them in just
          about any plastic type you like but the minimum run is 1000.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Michael Lawley
          > > Renewable Energy Engineer
          > > EcoInnovation
          > > 671 Kent Road
          > > R.D.1
          > > New Plymouth
          > > New Zealand
          > >
          > > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
          > > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
          > > email: ecoinn@...
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Carlos Bonifetti
          > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > > Cc: Max Klohn
          > > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 3:41 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Max and all:
          > >
          > > Thanks for your comments. Yes, the PowerPals "high head" sets are
          relatively in the lower range for most picohydro sites in chilean mountains.
          We need heads grater than, say about 45 m, when we can harness only very
          small flows.
          > >
          > > As Nando thinks, plastic runners can be used but made with good
          quality plastic compounds. We have here in Concepcion good foundry
          facilities for making small metal turgo & Pelton runners.
          > >
          > > Engineer Mauricio Gnecco mjgnecco@... , in Colombia, makes
          small Pelton runners with recicled aluminum in 1 piece using the "lost wax"
          method. It's good but very much time consuming.
          > >
          > > Thanks for your hospitality. When I can program a trip to the
          south I can tell you for fix a date in common.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Carlos
          > > -------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Max Klohn
          > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:22 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Carlos and microhydro list,
          > >
          > > Thank you for the specs. Powerpal gear looks good. I believe those
          are
          > > slightly retooled vietnamese sets. Looking at the specs, even
          their
          > > "high heads" are quite low by our local standards. The rest of the
          stuff
          > > is geared to more substantial flows.
          > > Some more facts to consider:
          > > * In spite it rains 3 to 4 m yearly here (!), summer months can be
          quite
          > > dry and most streamlets tend to run very low. That would be a
          problem.
          > > This incited me to research higher head/low flow solutions.
          > > * There is *no* road in most of the places where we would like to
          see
          > > sets installed. The maximum diameter of HDP tubing that it is
          reasonable
          > > to carry in those conditions is about 2 inches. Agreed, a couple
          of
          > > those could be run in paralell, but this increases the costs.
          > >
          > >
          > > Someone in the list proposed DC gear. While I (like most of the
          local
          > > people that have installed something here) currently have this
          (550 W
          > > with 100 m net head and 1.7 l/s), and it is easier on constraints
          there
          > > are some clear limits:
          > >
          > > * the kind of inverter that is needed to run fridges, congelators
          and
          > > washing machines is way too expensive for most of the rural
          > > people budgets, and cheap square-wave inverters just tend to fry
          with
          > > small tools and fridges.
          > > * The main stimulus for replacing the currently installed base of
          > > installations would be the ability to run fridges and congelators.
          That
          > > could in turn improve the possibility for additional earnings
          (i.e.
          > > working with "agrotourism"). That is a typical "hen and egg"
          problem.
          > > * The main annual cost for the installations is the replacement of
          old
          > > battery sets (people use cheap casr batteries that only last a
          couple of
          > > years)
          > > * Disposal of old batteries is a big ecological problem
          > > * Plastic runners just do not cut it with high heads (I had one
          that
          > > barely lasted one week)
          > >
          > > In brief, we do need a way to generate 220V AC directly.
          > > I have thought that for most cases with high head, a 3000 RPM Weg
          > > induction motor coupled with condensators and an IGC (a la Nigel
          Smith)
          > > could do. Fridges would probably need to be power-corrected
          though.
          > >
          > > I have been training a local metalworks to make small bolted,
          polished
          > > pelton runners, after some trial-and-error the results are
          starting to
          > > look decent. "Chill-casting" or "two step casting" as advocated in
          > > jeremy Thake's book did not work, it would have significantly
          reduced
          > > fabrication costs.
          > >
          > > I'd be very glad to meet you in Puerto Varas when you come, but
          let's
          > > fix the date in advance: I live way out in Todos los Santos, so
          you also
          > > have the option to come here, stay at my home, and see a couple of
          > > installations.
          > >
          > > Greetings,
          > >
          > > Max
          > >
          > >
          > > El mar, 19 de 10 de 2004 a las 10:37, Carlos Bonifetti escribió:
          > > > Dear Max:
          > > >
          > > > I'm Carlos from MTF LTDA., Concepcion. I was thinking in your
          trial for pico-hydro set for low income peasants in the northern chilean
          Patagonia since a lot of time, but the long distance is a trouble for
          marketing in site planning. Minimun qty. for low price sets is a must
          looking for good import discounts. I can offer Turgo or Pelton sets from APR
          PowerPal www.powerpal.com as we are their representatives in Chile. I was in
          trouble for answer you because an updating Windows XP had thow away several
          mail adresses from my directory.
          > > >
          > > > I know chinese sets from Maqchin, Santiago, but not in practice.
          The technical specs. and data for those turbine sets are poor an too general
          for heigth, flow ranges, control, etc., for a safe application. Permanent
          magnet alternators can be used only for light en uses as lamps, TV and video
          sets, radio, and very small domestic electical powered devices; I think that
          refrigerator can't connected because the high starting current.
          > > >
          > > > Our experience with PowerPal is good with the low head MHG-LH
          sets for 200, 500 & 1000 Watts, permanent magnet alternators running at 1000
          RPM. Water flow needed for those are 35, 70 and 130 l/s respectively for 1.5
          m gross head. We have, installed by us, a MHG-1000 in the Quinquen Valley
          rural school (near Lonquimay) and works well since 1991.
          > > >
          > > > Perhaps will be good that we can both program a meeting in
          Puerto Varas for talk, face to face, about this interesting and very
          important and common task.
          > > >
          > > > Best regards,
          > > >
          > > > Carlos Bonifetti
          > > > Concepción, Chile
          > >


          > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: Max Klohn
          > > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:37 AM
          > > > Subject: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Dear all,
          > > >
          > > > For a project oriented at low-income, isolated mountain dwellers
          in
          > > > northern patagonia, I have been looking at ready-made, low cost
          peltric
          > > > sets, or the possibility to import or have built Induction Motor
          > > > Controllers. Typical parameters are 1-5 l/s and 30 to 100 m
          head. The
          > > > equipment has to be low cost, low maintainance and robust, and
          involves
          > > > a significant component of technology transfer to the rural
          dwellers who
          > > > must be able to maintain their equipment.
          > > >
          > > > I have recently come upon the following chinese sets, who
          feature a
          > > > permanent magnet alternator, a controller and a dump load
          (integrated in
          > > > the base).
          > > >
          http://www.maqchin.com/maqchin/pages/maquinaria_china_ltda_productos_centrales_hidroelectricas.htm
          > > > models of interest are XJL 13-2 x 4.5 (750 W) and XJL 1 x 3.0
          (3000 W)
          > > >
          > > > In the model I could examine, the rotor was a relatively crudely
          built
          > > > (unpolished) turgo. The nozzle is huge and it is geared towards
          lower
          > > > heights and bigger flows. I am trying to get the parameters of
          the
          > > > rotational speed etc.
          > > >
          > > > * does someone have more data and a practical experience with
          those
          > > > sets? lessons learned?
          > > > * any experiences into adapting this equipment to higher
          heads/lower
          > > > flows?
          > > >
          > > > Thank you, and best regards
          > > >
          > > > Max Klohn
          > > >
          > > > Puerto Varas, Chile
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
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          ________________________________________________________________________
          > >
          > > Message: 2
          > > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:55:27 -0400
          > > From: Ron and Diane
          > > Subject: Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello Carlos,
          > >
          > > Perhaps you have seen my www.watermotor.net site. We make bronze
          > > turgo wheels here in Bolivia for our patented Watermotors. I will
          send you
          > > a photo. These have been tested and certified here at the
          University of San
          > > Andres Hydraulic Institute at 75% efficiency. The one in the photo
          has a
          > > 150 mm hydraulic diameter, or about 200 mm overall diameter. You
          may notice
          > > our patented power control switch that makes it possible to use
          the
          > > Watermotor to directly drive machines.
          > > All the best,
          > > Ron Davis,
          > > Campo Nuevo,
          > > La Paz, Bolivia
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          ________________________________________________________________________
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        • Hoppy
          Carlos - thank you for the information... I have a small Do-it-yourself system using a squirrel cage fan. 27 feet head. 4 inch penstock 430 feet long. Works
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Carlos - thank you for the information...

            I have a small Do-it-yourself system using a squirrel cage fan. 27 feet
            head. 4 inch penstock 430 feet long. Works best as an overshot wheel. I go
            from 4 inch pipe to a 3 inch round nozzle aimed at the top center of the
            blades. Gives me about 250 rpm at the turbine and enough torque to drive an
            old generator.

            For the home enthusiast, the squirrel fan has allowed me to create a system
            and learn all about generating electricity without costing me an arm and a
            leg.

            The next step would be to upgrade the various parts to get better
            efficiency - including a proper turbine - all in good time...

            Chris



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...>
            To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025


            >
            >
            > Hi Chris:
            >
            > As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers,
            'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel
            fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow wide
            could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow turbine
            runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and small
            power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be used so
            it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be made
            with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates and
            without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy paint,
            some 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion protection.
            The water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc. Ball
            bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.
            >
            > Best Regards,
            >
            > Carlos Bonifetti
            > Chile
            > ---------------------------------------------------------
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Hoppy
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
            >
            >
            >
            > Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a
            cheap
            > way to set up a small system...
            >
            > Could you please keep me informed?
            >
            > Chris
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
            > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
            > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
            > > when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
            > > idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
            > > The Dragon
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear all,
            > > >
            > > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
            > > > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
            > > > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
            > > >
            > > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
            > > > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
            > > replacement
            > > > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
            > > >
            > > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
            > > supplied,
            > > > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
            > > plastic
            > > > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
            > > > previous ones.
            > > >
            > > > Let us talk...
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Max
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
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          • John Herring
            wattage ????? can any one tell me what to exspect to get from a 4 pipe with a 6 head filtered water 24/7 no debre Thank you !! --- PLEASE Respond elsa
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 12, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              wattage ????? can any one tell me what to exspect to get from a 4" pipe with a 6" head filtered water 24/7 "no debre" Thank you !! --- PLEASE Respond "elsa"

              Carlos Bonifetti <cbonifetti@...> wrote:
              Hello Rupert, Max and all:

              Many thanks for your hints. My knowledge about 'Peltric' sets start at the 'First MHPG Hydropower Training Course' in Churwalden and St. Gallen, Switzerland, from Aug. 29 to Sep. 26, 1992 and HYDRONET, HIDRORED magazines related articles.
              Mr. A.M. Nakarmi - who had you tech. transfer about Pelton wheels received - was a pupil in the course among other 18 NGO's and Universities people, from Africa, Asia, and South America (I included).
              Here in Chile there are good foundries for make one piece Pelton runners. By now, the buckets are made one by one for to be bolted to disc plate. But I think that's best to have some standard pitch diameter (..200, 300, 400 mm) and bucket width runners made in one piece, and use belt drives for setting RPM to head available. I'm going in this sense. Does it right?
              Lost wax foundry is used by Mauricio Gnecco for aluminum small runners (150 - 200 mm), as I tell all in a former message. Quality is good enough for battery chargers pico turbines.
              Regards,
              Carlos Bonifetti
              MTF LTDA.- Chile
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Evans Engineering
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:29 AM
              Subject: RE: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



              Hello,
              I did the original design on which the peltric units are base some 25
              years ago and was also asked to look at redesigning the Chinese units
              that you have been discussing, for the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture
              (because of acute problems with quality control) May I tactfully suggest
              that before you jump in and experience the problems experienced by a
              dozen other groups with poor quality equipment, that you lay the
              foundations for a good local engineering capability. I make lost wax
              cast stainless steel Pelton runners which are good for well over a
              hundred metres of head, and I suggest that you do the same. In recent
              years many people have become wedded to this turbine or that turbine and
              have fallen down on the basics of good engineering, good bearings and
              good seals. I have had my share of disasters and problems and my only
              wish is to try and stop others falling into the same holes!! I have a
              new series of packaged microhydro unit 'Hydropack' that concentrates on
              getting the electrics and mechanics right and onto which a wide number
              of 'wet end' turbines can be fixed (similar the pump industry) The
              turbines are interchangeable and cater for heads from about 1 metre up
              to 200 metres and power ratings up to about 50 kW. Above this it is
              worth adapting the designs for the particular project. Several patents
              are pending on this system but there will be no costs associated with
              local manufacture for those who wish to cooperate or are NGOs working to
              help the rural poor.
              Regards
              Rupert Evans Engineering UK
              re@...


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Stewart Craine [mailto:stewcraine@...]
              Sent: 25 October 2004 06:12
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



              Can I also suggest a complete unit from Kathmandu Metal Industries,
              which is boxed up and ready to operate - called a Peltric set.

              www.nepalmicrohydropower.com



              microhydro@yahoogroups.com wrote:


              There are 2 messages in this issue.

              Topics in this digest:

              1. Re: chinese turbine sets
              From: Michael Lawley
              2. Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
              From: Ron and Diane


              ________________________________________________________________________
              ________________________________________________________________________

              Message: 1
              Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:30:16 +1300
              From: Michael Lawley
              Subject: Re: chinese turbine sets


              Hi Carlos,

              Have you tried one of our plastic Pelton rotors? The buckets can be
              quickly replaced and are very cheap to purchase if bought in bulk. We
              use them commonly in the 45-80m range without significance ware issues.
              Above 100m accelerated wear be expected but the cost to replace them is
              little.

              I am happy to send you a set for testing. We can make them in just about
              any plastic type you like but the minimum run is 1000.

              Regards



              Michael Lawley
              Renewable Energy Engineer
              EcoInnovation
              671 Kent Road
              R.D.1
              New Plymouth
              New Zealand

              Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
              Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
              email: ecoinn@...


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Carlos Bonifetti
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Max Klohn
              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 3:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets



              Dear Max and all:

              Thanks for your comments. Yes, the PowerPals "high head" sets are
              relatively in the lower range for most picohydro sites in chilean
              mountains. We need heads grater than, say about 45 m, when we can
              harness only very small flows.

              As Nando thinks, plastic runners can be used but made with good quality
              plastic compounds. We have here in Concepcion good foundry facilities
              for making small metal turgo & Pelton runners.

              Engineer Mauricio Gnecco mjgnecco@... , in Colombia, makes small
              Pelton runners with recicled aluminum in 1 piece using the "lost wax"
              method. It's good but very much time consuming.

              Thanks for your hospitality. When I can program a trip to the south I
              can tell you for fix a date in common.

              Regards,

              Carlos
              -------------------------------------------------------------


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Max Klohn
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:22 AM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets



              Dear Carlos and microhydro list,

              Thank you for the specs. Powerpal gear looks good. I believe those are
              slightly retooled vietnamese sets. Looking at the specs, even their
              "high heads" are quite low by our local standards. The rest of the stuff
              is geared to more substantial flows.
              Some more facts to consider:
              * In spite it rains 3 to 4 m yearly here (!), summer months can be quite
              dry and most streamlets tend to run very low. That would be a problem.
              This incited me to research higher head/low flow solutions.
              * There is *no* road in most of the places where we would like to see
              sets installed. The maximum diameter of HDP tubing that it is reasonable
              to carry in those conditions is about 2 inches. Agreed, a couple of
              those could be run in paralell, but this increases the costs.


              Someone in the list proposed DC gear. While I (like most of the local
              people that have installed something here) currently have this (550 W
              with 100 m net head and 1.7 l/s), and it is easier on constraints there
              are some clear limits:

              * the kind of inverter that is needed to run fridges, congelators and
              washing machines is way too expensive for most of the rural
              people budgets, and cheap square-wave inverters just tend to fry with
              small tools and fridges.
              * The main stimulus for replacing the currently installed base of
              installations would be the ability to run fridges and congelators. That
              could in turn improve the possibility for additional earnings (i.e.
              working with "agrotourism"). That is a typical "hen and egg" problem.
              * The main annual cost for the installations is the replacement of old
              battery sets (people use cheap casr batteries that only last a couple of
              years)
              * Disposal of old batteries is a big ecological problem
              * Plastic runners just do not cut it with high heads (I had one that
              barely lasted one week)

              In brief, we do need a way to generate 220V AC directly.
              I have thought that for most cases with high head, a 3000 RPM Weg
              induction motor coupled with condensators and an IGC (a la Nigel Smith)
              could do. Fridges would probably need to be power-corrected though.

              I have been training a local metalworks to make small bolted, polished
              pelton runners, after some trial-and-error the results are starting to
              look decent. "Chill-casting" or "two step casting" as advocated in
              jeremy Thake's book did not work, it would have significantly reduced
              fabrication costs.

              I'd be very glad to meet you in Puerto Varas when you come, but let's
              fix the date in advance: I live way out in Todos los Santos, so you also
              have the option to come here, stay at my home, and see a couple of
              installations.

              Greetings,

              Max


              El mar, 19 de 10 de 2004 a las 10:37, Carlos Bonifetti escribi�:
              > Dear Max:
              >
              > I'm Carlos from MTF LTDA., Concepcion. I was thinking in your trial
              for pico-hydro set for low income peasants in the northern chilean
              Patagonia since a lot of time, but the long distance is a trouble for
              marketing in site planning. Minimun qty. for low price sets is a must
              looking for good import discounts. I can offer Turgo or Pelton sets from
              APR PowerPal www.powerpal.com as we are their representatives in Chile.
              I was in trouble for answer you because an updating Windows XP had thow
              away several mail adresses from my directory.
              >
              > I know chinese sets from Maqchin, Santiago, but not in practice. The
              technical specs. and data for those turbine sets are poor an too general
              for heigth, flow ranges, control, etc., for a safe application.
              Permanent magnet alternators can be used only for light en uses as
              lamps, TV and video sets, radio, and very small domestic electical
              powered devices; I think that refrigerator can't connected because the
              high starting current.
              >
              > Our experience with PowerPal is good with the low head MHG-LH sets for
              200, 500 & 1000 Watts, permanent magnet alternators running at 1000 RPM.
              Water flow needed for those are 35, 70 and 130 l/s respectively for 1.5
              m gross head. We have, installed by us, a MHG-1000 in the Quinquen
              Valley rural school (near Lonquimay) and works well since 1991.
              >
              > Perhaps will be good that we can both program a meeting in Puerto
              Varas for talk, face to face, about this interesting and very important
              and common task.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Carlos Bonifetti
              > Concepci�n, Chile
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              --------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Max Klohn
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:37 AM
              > Subject: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear all,
              >
              > For a project oriented at low-income, isolated mountain dwellers in
              > northern patagonia, I have been looking at ready-made, low cost
              peltric
              > sets, or the possibility to import or have built Induction Motor
              > Controllers. Typical parameters are 1-5 l/s and 30 to 100 m head. The
              > equipment has to be low cost, low maintainance and robust, and
              involves
              > a significant component of technology transfer to the rural dwellers
              who
              > must be able to maintain their equipment.
              >
              > I have recently come upon the following chinese sets, who feature a
              > permanent magnet alternator, a controller and a dump load (integrated
              in
              > the base).
              >
              http://www.maqchin.com/maqchin/pages/maquinaria_china_ltda_productos_cen
              trales_hidroelectricas.htm
              > models of interest are XJL 13-2 x 4.5 (750 W) and XJL 1 x 3.0 (3000 W)
              >
              > In the model I could examine, the rotor was a relatively crudely built
              > (unpolished) turgo. The nozzle is huge and it is geared towards lower
              > heights and bigger flows. I am trying to get the parameters of the
              > rotational speed etc.
              >
              > * does someone have more data and a practical experience with those
              > sets? lessons learned?
              > * any experiences into adapting this equipment to higher heads/lower
              > flows?
              >
              > Thank you, and best regards
              >
              > Max Klohn
              >
              > Puerto Varas, Chile
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              ________________________________________________________________________
              ________________________________________________________________________

              Message: 2
              Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:55:27 -0400
              From: Ron and Diane
              Subject: Bronze Turgos in Bolivia



              Hello Carlos,

              Perhaps you have seen my www.watermotor.net site. We make bronze
              turgo wheels here in Bolivia for our patented Watermotors. I will send
              you
              a photo. These have been tested and certified here at the University of
              San
              Andres Hydraulic Institute at 75% efficiency. The one in the photo has a

              150 mm hydraulic diameter, or about 200 mm overall diameter. You may
              notice
              our patented power control switch that makes it possible to use the
              Watermotor to directly drive machines.
              All the best,
              Ron Davis,
              Campo Nuevo,
              La Paz, Bolivia


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              ________________________________________________________________________
              ________________________________________________________________________


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            • Jeffe & Carrie Aronson
              I ve just installed a new low head turbine and am selling the old one. It has a Smart Drive generator on it, and makes 200 to 350 watts with a 5 to 6 foot
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 14, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                I've just installed a new low head turbine and am selling the old one. It
                has a Smart Drive generator on it, and makes 200 to 350 watts with a 5 to 6
                foot head. Smart drive is in perfect condition, turbine needs some work.
                Contact Jeffe at: jeffe@....



                On 2/16/05 3:04 AM, "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hi Chris:
                >
                > As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers,
                > 'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel
                > fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow wide
                > could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow turbine
                > runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and small
                > power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be used so
                > it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be made
                > with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates and
                > without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy paint, some
                > 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion protection. The
                > water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc. Ball
                > bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.
                >
                > Best Regards,
                >
                > Carlos Bonifetti
                > Chile
                > ---------------------------------------------------------
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Hoppy
                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
                > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                >
                >
                >
                > Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a cheap
                > way to set up a small system...
                >
                > Could you please keep me informed?
                >
                > Chris
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
                > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
                > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                >
                >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
                >> when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
                >> idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
                >> The Dragon
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> Dear all,
                >>>
                >>> Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
                >>> right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
                >>> operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
                >>>
                >>> IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
                >>> reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
                >> replacement
                >>> parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
                >>>
                >>> I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
                >> supplied,
                >>> after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
                >> plastic
                >>> runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
                >>> previous ones.
                >>>
                >>> Let us talk...
                >>> Regards,
                >>>
                >>> Max
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
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              • Michael Lawley
                Hi Jeffe, Many of us have read your articles about your turbine and its not so good performance. What did you replace it with and how much better is the new
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 16, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Jeffe,

                  Many of us have read your articles about your turbine and its not so good performance. What did you replace it with and how much better is the new model doing?

                  Regards



                  Michael Lawley
                  Renewable Energy Engineer
                  EcoInnovation
                  671 Kent Road
                  R.D.1
                  New Plymouth
                  New Zealand

                  Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
                  Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
                  email: ecoinn@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jeffe & Carrie Aronson
                  To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:47 PM
                  Subject: [microhydro] New post: Low Head Platypus turbine for sale: Victoria Australia



                  I've just installed a new low head turbine and am selling the old one. It
                  has a Smart Drive generator on it, and makes 200 to 350 watts with a 5 to 6
                  foot head. Smart drive is in perfect condition, turbine needs some work.
                  Contact Jeffe at: jeffe@....



                  On 2/16/05 3:04 AM, "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Chris:
                  >
                  > As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers,
                  > 'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel
                  > fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow wide
                  > could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow turbine
                  > runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and small
                  > power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be used so
                  > it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be made
                  > with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates and
                  > without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy paint, some
                  > 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion protection. The
                  > water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc. Ball
                  > bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.
                  >
                  > Best Regards,
                  >
                  > Carlos Bonifetti
                  > Chile
                  > ---------------------------------------------------------
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Hoppy
                  > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a cheap
                  > way to set up a small system...
                  >
                  > Could you please keep me informed?
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
                  > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
                  > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
                  >> when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
                  >> idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
                  >> The Dragon
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>> Dear all,
                  >>>
                  >>> Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
                  >>> right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
                  >>> operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
                  >>>
                  >>> IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
                  >>> reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
                  >> replacement
                  >>> parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
                  >>>
                  >>> I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
                  >> supplied,
                  >>> after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
                  >> plastic
                  >>> runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
                  >>> previous ones.
                  >>>
                  >>> Let us talk...
                  >>> Regards,
                  >>>
                  >>> Max
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                  > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                  > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                  >>
                  >> NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                  > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                  > endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                  >>
                  >> More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                  >>
                  >> To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                  > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
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                  > and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
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                  Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carlos Bonifetti
                  OK Chris, some later but... the end of the year did put me in troubles and backlogging. See my comments under your lines. Happy new year, Carlos ... From:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 25, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    OK Chris, some later but... the end of the year did put me in troubles and backlogging. See my comments under your lines.

                    Happy new year,

                    Carlos
                    -----------------------------------------------
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Hoppy
                    To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:28 AM
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025



                    Carlos - thank you for the information...

                    I have a small Do-it-yourself system using a squirrel cage fan. 27 feet
                    head. 4 inch penstock 430 feet long. Works best as an overshot wheel. I go
                    from 4 inch pipe to a 3 inch round nozzle aimed at the top center of the
                    blades. Gives me about 250 rpm at the turbine and enough torque to drive an
                    old generator.

                    Be careful..less diameter...less flow. Perhaps the penstock willl be of greater diameter (6" or 8") for reducing down in the nozzle.

                    For the home enthusiast, the squirrel fan has allowed me to create a system
                    and learn all about generating electricity without costing me an arm and a
                    leg.

                    That's good

                    The next step would be to upgrade the various parts to get better
                    efficiency - including a proper turbine - all in good time...

                    Good luck,
                    Carlos

                    Chris



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...>
                    To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025


                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Chris:
                    >
                    > As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers,
                    'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel
                    fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow wide
                    could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow turbine
                    runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and small
                    power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be used so
                    it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be made
                    with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates and
                    without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy paint,
                    some 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion protection.
                    The water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc. Ball
                    bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.
                    >
                    > Best Regards,
                    >
                    > Carlos Bonifetti
                    > Chile
                    > ---------------------------------------------------------
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Hoppy
                    > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a
                    cheap
                    > way to set up a small system...
                    >
                    > Could you please keep me informed?
                    >
                    > Chris
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
                    > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
                    > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
                    > > when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
                    > > idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
                    > > The Dragon
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear all,
                    > > >
                    > > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
                    > > > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
                    > > > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
                    > > >
                    > > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
                    > > > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
                    > > replacement
                    > > > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
                    > > >
                    > > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
                    > > supplied,
                    > > > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
                    > > plastic
                    > > > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
                    > > > previous ones.
                    > > >
                    > > > Let us talk...
                    > > > Regards,
                    > > >
                    > > > Max
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                    > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                    > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                    > >
                    > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                    > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does
                    not
                    > endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                    > >
                    > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                    > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                    http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                    charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
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                    provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                    endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
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                  • Nando
                    Chris; The Fan impeller ( centrifugal impeller) as Carlos said ( he has vast experience with them) is limited to low power and low heads ) Not greater than
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 26, 2004
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                      Chris;

                      The Fan impeller ( centrifugal impeller) as Carlos said ( he has vast
                      experience with them) is limited to low power and low heads ) Not greater
                      than about 10 meter (33 feet).

                      The Nozzle to the impeller should be formed close to the blades ( following
                      the circular curve of the impeller) and the Nozzle needs to be reduced at
                      the impeller and not back away from the impeller.
                      The impeller needs to have the Nozzle placed from above, coming from
                      Quadrant I, like an overshot and supplying water for around 90 degrees on
                      Quadrant II of the impeller and expanded horizontally to fulfill the proper
                      Nozzle area that should be lower than the arriving pipe area to insure
                      maximum pressure on the impeller blades.
                      This way the water exiting the internal side of the Quadrant II can flow
                      toward the internal side of Quadrant IV impeller blades to add additional
                      power to the overall system power.

                      The plastic pipes can be modified easily, with heat, to form the Nozzles as
                      needed.
                      I have used washed sand heated to insert the end of the pipe, in the heated
                      sand, to soften the plastic and to mold it using wooden plugs or "plates" to
                      conform the Nozzle as needed.
                      Using blow torches is another way if done carefully.
                      Right now I am assisting a friend that is setting a small hydro in his
                      Canadian "lodge" to produce from 60 to 400 watts.
                      The Nozzles ( 4 ) of different sizes for 2 to 10 l/s ( built using 2 "
                      pipes) - 4 can be installed at the same time on the impeller frontal area
                      for easy and future automatic selection of the proper number of Nozzles
                      depending on the available water level.

                      This system is using a brushless 3 phase PM motor as a generator, supplied
                      by Michael Lawley from EcoInn in New Zealand, www.ecoinn.co.nz. directly
                      driven by the turbine and set for Half voltage Delta configuration since the
                      turbine is at some distance from the load ( a battery bank ).

                      Stainless Steel Impellers are available in several diameters and widths,
                      being about 1000 watts the maximum power that should be harvested to insure
                      long life the impeller

                      I hope this help

                      Nando





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...>
                      To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 2:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025


                      >
                      >
                      > OK Chris, some later but... the end of the year did put me in troubles and
                      backlogging. See my comments under your lines.
                      >
                      > Happy new year,
                      >
                      > Carlos
                      > -----------------------------------------------
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Hoppy
                      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:28 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Carlos - thank you for the information...
                      >
                      > I have a small Do-it-yourself system using a squirrel cage fan. 27 feet
                      > head. 4 inch penstock 430 feet long. Works best as an overshot wheel. I
                      go
                      > from 4 inch pipe to a 3 inch round nozzle aimed at the top center of the
                      > blades. Gives me about 250 rpm at the turbine and enough torque to drive
                      an
                      > old generator.
                      >
                      > Be careful..less diameter...less flow. Perhaps the penstock willl be of
                      greater diameter (6" or 8") for reducing down in the nozzle.
                      >
                      > For the home enthusiast, the squirrel fan has allowed me to create a
                      system
                      > and learn all about generating electricity without costing me an arm and
                      a
                      > leg.
                      >
                      > That's good
                      >
                      > The next step would be to upgrade the various parts to get better
                      > efficiency - including a proper turbine - all in good time...
                      >
                      > Good luck,
                      > Carlos
                      >
                      > Chris
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <cbonifetti@...>
                      > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:04 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Chris:
                      > >
                      > > As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade
                      impellers,
                      > 'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that
                      squirrel
                      > fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow
                      wide
                      > could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow
                      turbine
                      > runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and
                      small
                      > power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be
                      used so
                      > it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be
                      made
                      > with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates
                      and
                      > without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy
                      paint,
                      > some 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion
                      protection.
                      > The water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc.
                      Ball
                      > bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.
                      > >
                      > > Best Regards,
                      > >
                      > > Carlos Bonifetti
                      > > Chile
                      > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Hoppy
                      > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a
                      > cheap
                      > > way to set up a small system...
                      > >
                      > > Could you please keep me informed?
                      > >
                      > > Chris
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
                      > > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
                      > > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru
                      wheel
                      > > > when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a
                      good
                      > > > idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
                      > > > The Dragon
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Dear all,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose
                      the
                      > > > > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an
                      import
                      > > > > operation... Would probably need some volume to be
                      cost-effective.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics
                      is a
                      > > > > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
                      > > > replacement
                      > > > > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be
                      trained.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
                      > > > supplied,
                      > > > > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
                      > > > plastic
                      > > > > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems
                      with
                      > > > > previous ones.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Let us talk...
                      > > > > Regards,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Max
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
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                    • Carlos Bonifetti
                      Hi Michael, Max and all: Well friends, time and more thinking would be the future for plastic buckets. In a 8 kW, 200 m head vertical Pico Pelton direct drive
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 9, 2005
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                        Hi Michael, Max and all:

                        Well friends, time and more thinking would be the future for plastic buckets. In a 8 kW, 200 m head vertical Pico Pelton direct drive in a Switzerland dairy I can see, in 1992, that plastic buckets were broken frequently; the high head would be the problem. We must introduce first the most cheaper and reliable pico sets for the chilean geographic condition. We have a very very long country and trips/communication are a big problem, as Max said.
                        I'm involved in a rural microhydro project in central Chile, wih 2 MPH Plants small villages and hat needs five picohydro sets 1 - 1.5 kW for isolated peasant dwellers. Enginnering is ready since some 6 month ago. This is an opportunity for use standard kits for electricity and direct drive tools. I'm following up this project that will be implemented about November. Dicember 2004.

                        Regards,

                        Carlos
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Max Klohn
                        To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:35 AM
                        Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



                        Hi Michael,


                        The failed runners I am talking of are injection moulded individual
                        buckets which are then assembled on a metallic or metal-plastic axis
                        then glued with epoxy. They do not stand up to vibrations.

                        I am not ruling plastic out, especially monobloc, but given the previous
                        local experience of CLIENTS it would be hard to sell anything "plastic".
                        Especially if people have to add an expensive and burdensome trip for
                        each replacement. As Carlos Bonifetti stated, stuff in remote places has
                        to be sturdy and need as little replacements as possible. Just think of
                        the additional problems in communications, access etc.

                        The low RPM Smartdrives and plastic runners certainly fit a slot in
                        relatively low head/high flow situations.

                        Max

                        El mié, 27 de 10 de 2004 a las 17:06, Michael Lawley escribió:
                        > Hi,
                        >
                        > Rather than rule out a particular material based on a previous experience it might be prudent to take up my offer to try a free sample. We use plastic runners on our Pelton turbines and do not have problems. They are perfectly balanced, low mass, low cost and very easy and simple to replace if after several years they do need replacing. We supply all our customers with a spare set of Pelton spoons for when that day arrives.
                        >
                        > We can supply volume orders of 25 kg at a time (about 1000 of them) at a very good price. Local labour can then assemble them onto steel disc hubs. We've been making them for nearly 2 years and to date have not had any problems.
                        >
                        > I think you might be comparing the cast epoxy type runner with injection moulded ones.
                        >
                        > We can also supply volume smart drive generators at a very good price and would even consider sharing the risk if there are some entrepreneurs out three looking to set up business making good low cost Pelton turbines with efficient low speed PMG generators. Making this type of equipment affordable, simple and easy to fix using parts that are plentiful is important.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Michael Lawley
                        > Renewable Energy Engineer
                        > EcoInnovation
                        > 671 Kent Road
                        > R.D.1
                        > New Plymouth
                        > New Zealand
                        >
                        > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
                        > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
                        > email: ecoinn@...
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Max Klohn
                        > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:48 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear all,
                        >
                        > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
                        > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
                        > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
                        >
                        > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
                        > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their replacement
                        > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
                        >
                        > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally supplied,
                        > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more plastic
                        > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
                        > previous ones.
                        >
                        > Let us talk...
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Max
                        >
                        > El lun, 25 de 10 de 2004 a las 16:07, Carlos Bonifetti escribió:
                        > > Thanks to all; Peltric sets from Mr. A.M. Nakarmi industry could be a good alternative for mountain dwellers.
                        > > For plastic runners from Michael, let me study and talk about them with Max, first.
                        > > Regards,
                        > > Carlos
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Stewart Craine
                        > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 2:12 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Can I also suggest a complete unit from Kathmandu Metal Industries, which is boxed up and ready to operate - called a Peltric set.
                        > >
                        > > www.nepalmicrohydropower.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > microhydro@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > There are 2 messages in this issue.
                        > >
                        > > Topics in this digest:
                        > >
                        > > 1. Re: chinese turbine sets
                        > > From: Michael Lawley
                        > > 2. Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
                        > > From: Ron and Diane
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________________________________________________
                        > > ________________________________________________________________________
                        > >
                        > > Message: 1
                        > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:30:16 +1300
                        > > From: Michael Lawley
                        > > Subject: Re: chinese turbine sets
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Carlos,
                        > >
                        > > Have you tried one of our plastic Pelton rotors? The buckets can be quickly replaced and are very cheap to purchase if bought in bulk. We use them commonly in the 45-80m range without significance ware issues. Above 100m accelerated wear be expected but the cost to replace them is little.
                        > >
                        > > I am happy to send you a set for testing. We can make them in just about any plastic type you like but the minimum run is 1000.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Michael Lawley
                        > > Renewable Energy Engineer
                        > > EcoInnovation
                        > > 671 Kent Road
                        > > R.D.1
                        > > New Plymouth
                        > > New Zealand
                        > >
                        > > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
                        > > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
                        > > email: ecoinn@...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Carlos Bonifetti
                        > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Cc: Max Klohn
                        > > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 3:41 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dear Max and all:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your comments. Yes, the PowerPals "high head" sets are relatively in the lower range for most picohydro sites in chilean mountains. We need heads grater than, say about 45 m, when we can harness only very small flows.
                        > >
                        > > As Nando thinks, plastic runners can be used but made with good quality plastic compounds. We have here in Concepcion good foundry facilities for making small metal turgo & Pelton runners.
                        > >
                        > > Engineer Mauricio Gnecco mjgnecco@... , in Colombia, makes small Pelton runners with recicled aluminum in 1 piece using the "lost wax" method. It's good but very much time consuming.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your hospitality. When I can program a trip to the south I can tell you for fix a date in common.
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > >
                        > > Carlos
                        > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Max Klohn
                        > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:22 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dear Carlos and microhydro list,
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for the specs. Powerpal gear looks good. I believe those are
                        > > slightly retooled vietnamese sets. Looking at the specs, even their
                        > > "high heads" are quite low by our local standards. The rest of the stuff
                        > > is geared to more substantial flows.
                        > > Some more facts to consider:
                        > > * In spite it rains 3 to 4 m yearly here (!), summer months can be quite
                        > > dry and most streamlets tend to run very low. That would be a problem.
                        > > This incited me to research higher head/low flow solutions.
                        > > * There is *no* road in most of the places where we would like to see
                        > > sets installed. The maximum diameter of HDP tubing that it is reasonable
                        > > to carry in those conditions is about 2 inches. Agreed, a couple of
                        > > those could be run in paralell, but this increases the costs.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Someone in the list proposed DC gear. While I (like most of the local
                        > > people that have installed something here) currently have this (550 W
                        > > with 100 m net head and 1.7 l/s), and it is easier on constraints there
                        > > are some clear limits:
                        > >
                        > > * the kind of inverter that is needed to run fridges, congelators and
                        > > washing machines is way too expensive for most of the rural
                        > > people budgets, and cheap square-wave inverters just tend to fry with
                        > > small tools and fridges.
                        > > * The main stimulus for replacing the currently installed base of
                        > > installations would be the ability to run fridges and congelators. That
                        > > could in turn improve the possibility for additional earnings (i.e.
                        > > working with "agrotourism"). That is a typical "hen and egg" problem.
                        > > * The main annual cost for the installations is the replacement of old
                        > > battery sets (people use cheap casr batteries that only last a couple of
                        > > years)
                        > > * Disposal of old batteries is a big ecological problem
                        > > * Plastic runners just do not cut it with high heads (I had one that
                        > > barely lasted one week)
                        > >
                        > > In brief, we do need a way to generate 220V AC directly.
                        > > I have thought that for most cases with high head, a 3000 RPM Weg
                        > > induction motor coupled with condensators and an IGC (a la Nigel Smith)
                        > > could do. Fridges would probably need to be power-corrected though.
                        > >
                        > > I have been training a local metalworks to make small bolted, polished
                        > > pelton runners, after some trial-and-error the results are starting to
                        > > look decent. "Chill-casting" or "two step casting" as advocated in
                        > > jeremy Thake's book did not work, it would have significantly reduced
                        > > fabrication costs.
                        > >
                        > > I'd be very glad to meet you in Puerto Varas when you come, but let's
                        > > fix the date in advance: I live way out in Todos los Santos, so you also
                        > > have the option to come here, stay at my home, and see a couple of
                        > > installations.
                        > >
                        > > Greetings,
                        > >
                        > > Max
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > El mar, 19 de 10 de 2004 a las 10:37, Carlos Bonifetti escribió:
                        > > > Dear Max:
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm Carlos from MTF LTDA., Concepcion. I was thinking in your trial for pico-hydro set for low income peasants in the northern chilean Patagonia since a lot of time, but the long distance is a trouble for marketing in site planning. Minimun qty. for low price sets is a must looking for good import discounts. I can offer Turgo or Pelton sets from APR PowerPal www.powerpal.com as we are their representatives in Chile. I was in trouble for answer you because an updating Windows XP had thow away several mail adresses from my directory.
                        > > >
                        > > > I know chinese sets from Maqchin, Santiago, but not in practice. The technical specs. and data for those turbine sets are poor an too general for heigth, flow ranges, control, etc., for a safe application. Permanent magnet alternators can be used only for light en uses as lamps, TV and video sets, radio, and very small domestic electical powered devices; I think that refrigerator can't connected because the high starting current.
                        > > >
                        > > > Our experience with PowerPal is good with the low head MHG-LH sets for 200, 500 & 1000 Watts, permanent magnet alternators running at 1000 RPM. Water flow needed for those are 35, 70 and 130 l/s respectively for 1.5 m gross head. We have, installed by us, a MHG-1000 in the Quinquen Valley rural school (near Lonquimay) and works well since 1991.
                        > > >
                        > > > Perhaps will be good that we can both program a meeting in Puerto Varas for talk, face to face, about this interesting and very important and common task.
                        > > >
                        > > > Best regards,
                        > > >
                        > > > Carlos Bonifetti
                        > > > Concepción, Chile
                        > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: Max Klohn
                        > > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:37 AM
                        > > > Subject: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear all,
                        > > >
                        > > > For a project oriented at low-income, isolated mountain dwellers in
                        > > > northern patagonia, I have been looking at ready-made, low cost peltric
                        > > > sets, or the possibility to import or have built Induction Motor
                        > > > Controllers. Typical parameters are 1-5 l/s and 30 to 100 m head. The
                        > > > equipment has to be low cost, low maintainance and robust, and involves
                        > > > a significant component of technology transfer to the rural dwellers who
                        > > > must be able to maintain their equipment.
                        > > >
                        > > > I have recently come upon the following chinese sets, who feature a
                        > > > permanent magnet alternator, a controller and a dump load (integrated in
                        > > > the base).
                        > > > http://www.maqchin.com/maqchin/pages/maquinaria_china_ltda_productos_centrales_hidroelectricas.htm
                        > > > models of interest are XJL 13-2 x 4.5 (750 W) and XJL 1 x 3.0 (3000 W)
                        > > >
                        > > > In the model I could examine, the rotor was a relatively crudely built
                        > > > (unpolished) turgo. The nozzle is huge and it is geared towards lower
                        > > > heights and bigger flows. I am trying to get the parameters of the
                        > > > rotational speed etc.
                        > > >
                        > > > * does someone have more data and a practical experience with those
                        > > > sets? lessons learned?
                        > > > * any experiences into adapting this equipment to higher heads/lower
                        > > > flows?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thank you, and best regards
                        > > >
                        > > > Max Klohn
                        > > >
                        > > > Puerto Varas, Chile
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
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                        > >
                        > > Message: 2
                        > > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:55:27 -0400
                        > > From: Ron and Diane
                        > > Subject: Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hello Carlos,
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps you have seen my www.watermotor.net site. We make bronze
                        > > turgo wheels here in Bolivia for our patented Watermotors. I will send you
                        > > a photo. These have been tested and certified here at the University of San
                        > > Andres Hydraulic Institute at 75% efficiency. The one in the photo has a
                        > > 150 mm hydraulic diameter, or about 200 mm overall diameter. You may notice
                        > > our patented power control switch that makes it possible to use the
                        > > Watermotor to directly drive machines.
                        > > All the best,
                        > > Ron Davis,
                        > > Campo Nuevo,
                        > > La Paz, Bolivia
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________________________________________________
                        > > ________________________________________________________________________
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carlos Bonifetti
                        Hello Rupert, Max and all: Many thanks for your hints. My knowledge about Peltric sets start at the First MHPG Hydropower Training Course in Churwalden and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 14, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Rupert, Max and all:

                          Many thanks for your hints. My knowledge about 'Peltric' sets start at the 'First MHPG Hydropower Training Course' in Churwalden and St. Gallen, Switzerland, from Aug. 29 to Sep. 26, 1992 and HYDRONET, HIDRORED magazines related articles.
                          Mr. A.M. Nakarmi - who had you tech. transfer about Pelton wheels received - was a pupil in the course among other 18 NGO's and Universities people, from Africa, Asia, and South America (I included).
                          Here in Chile there are good foundries for make one piece Pelton runners. By now, the buckets are made one by one for to be bolted to disc plate. But I think that's best to have some standard pitch diameter (..200, 300, 400 mm) and bucket width runners made in one piece, and use belt drives for setting RPM to head available. I'm going in this sense. Does it right?
                          Lost wax foundry is used by Mauricio Gnecco for aluminum small runners (150 - 200 mm), as I tell all in a former message. Quality is good enough for battery chargers pico turbines.
                          Regards,
                          Carlos Bonifetti
                          MTF LTDA.- Chile
                          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Evans Engineering
                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:29 AM
                          Subject: RE: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



                          Hello,
                          I did the original design on which the peltric units are base some 25
                          years ago and was also asked to look at redesigning the Chinese units
                          that you have been discussing, for the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture
                          (because of acute problems with quality control) May I tactfully suggest
                          that before you jump in and experience the problems experienced by a
                          dozen other groups with poor quality equipment, that you lay the
                          foundations for a good local engineering capability. I make lost wax
                          cast stainless steel Pelton runners which are good for well over a
                          hundred metres of head, and I suggest that you do the same. In recent
                          years many people have become wedded to this turbine or that turbine and
                          have fallen down on the basics of good engineering, good bearings and
                          good seals. I have had my share of disasters and problems and my only
                          wish is to try and stop others falling into the same holes!! I have a
                          new series of packaged microhydro unit 'Hydropack' that concentrates on
                          getting the electrics and mechanics right and onto which a wide number
                          of 'wet end' turbines can be fixed (similar the pump industry) The
                          turbines are interchangeable and cater for heads from about 1 metre up
                          to 200 metres and power ratings up to about 50 kW. Above this it is
                          worth adapting the designs for the particular project. Several patents
                          are pending on this system but there will be no costs associated with
                          local manufacture for those who wish to cooperate or are NGOs working to
                          help the rural poor.
                          Regards
                          Rupert Evans Engineering UK
                          re@...


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Stewart Craine [mailto:stewcraine@...]
                          Sent: 25 October 2004 06:12
                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025



                          Can I also suggest a complete unit from Kathmandu Metal Industries,
                          which is boxed up and ready to operate - called a Peltric set.

                          www.nepalmicrohydropower.com



                          microhydro@yahoogroups.com wrote:


                          There are 2 messages in this issue.

                          Topics in this digest:

                          1. Re: chinese turbine sets
                          From: Michael Lawley
                          2. Bronze Turgos in Bolivia
                          From: Ron and Diane


                          ________________________________________________________________________
                          ________________________________________________________________________

                          Message: 1
                          Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:30:16 +1300
                          From: Michael Lawley
                          Subject: Re: chinese turbine sets


                          Hi Carlos,

                          Have you tried one of our plastic Pelton rotors? The buckets can be
                          quickly replaced and are very cheap to purchase if bought in bulk. We
                          use them commonly in the 45-80m range without significance ware issues.
                          Above 100m accelerated wear be expected but the cost to replace them is
                          little.

                          I am happy to send you a set for testing. We can make them in just about
                          any plastic type you like but the minimum run is 1000.

                          Regards



                          Michael Lawley
                          Renewable Energy Engineer
                          EcoInnovation
                          671 Kent Road
                          R.D.1
                          New Plymouth
                          New Zealand

                          Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765
                          Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz
                          email: ecoinn@...


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Carlos Bonifetti
                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: Max Klohn
                          Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 3:41 AM
                          Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets



                          Dear Max and all:

                          Thanks for your comments. Yes, the PowerPals "high head" sets are
                          relatively in the lower range for most picohydro sites in chilean
                          mountains. We need heads grater than, say about 45 m, when we can
                          harness only very small flows.

                          As Nando thinks, plastic runners can be used but made with good quality
                          plastic compounds. We have here in Concepcion good foundry facilities
                          for making small metal turgo & Pelton runners.

                          Engineer Mauricio Gnecco mjgnecco@... , in Colombia, makes small
                          Pelton runners with recicled aluminum in 1 piece using the "lost wax"
                          method. It's good but very much time consuming.

                          Thanks for your hospitality. When I can program a trip to the south I
                          can tell you for fix a date in common.

                          Regards,

                          Carlos
                          -------------------------------------------------------------


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Max Klohn
                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:22 AM
                          Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets



                          Dear Carlos and microhydro list,

                          Thank you for the specs. Powerpal gear looks good. I believe those are
                          slightly retooled vietnamese sets. Looking at the specs, even their
                          "high heads" are quite low by our local standards. The rest of the stuff
                          is geared to more substantial flows.
                          Some more facts to consider:
                          * In spite it rains 3 to 4 m yearly here (!), summer months can be quite
                          dry and most streamlets tend to run very low. That would be a problem.
                          This incited me to research higher head/low flow solutions.
                          * There is *no* road in most of the places where we would like to see
                          sets installed. The maximum diameter of HDP tubing that it is reasonable
                          to carry in those conditions is about 2 inches. Agreed, a couple of
                          those could be run in paralell, but this increases the costs.


                          Someone in the list proposed DC gear. While I (like most of the local
                          people that have installed something here) currently have this (550 W
                          with 100 m net head and 1.7 l/s), and it is easier on constraints there
                          are some clear limits:

                          * the kind of inverter that is needed to run fridges, congelators and
                          washing machines is way too expensive for most of the rural
                          people budgets, and cheap square-wave inverters just tend to fry with
                          small tools and fridges.
                          * The main stimulus for replacing the currently installed base of
                          installations would be the ability to run fridges and congelators. That
                          could in turn improve the possibility for additional earnings (i.e.
                          working with "agrotourism"). That is a typical "hen and egg" problem.
                          * The main annual cost for the installations is the replacement of old
                          battery sets (people use cheap casr batteries that only last a couple of
                          years)
                          * Disposal of old batteries is a big ecological problem
                          * Plastic runners just do not cut it with high heads (I had one that
                          barely lasted one week)

                          In brief, we do need a way to generate 220V AC directly.
                          I have thought that for most cases with high head, a 3000 RPM Weg
                          induction motor coupled with condensators and an IGC (a la Nigel Smith)
                          could do. Fridges would probably need to be power-corrected though.

                          I have been training a local metalworks to make small bolted, polished
                          pelton runners, after some trial-and-error the results are starting to
                          look decent. "Chill-casting" or "two step casting" as advocated in
                          jeremy Thake's book did not work, it would have significantly reduced
                          fabrication costs.

                          I'd be very glad to meet you in Puerto Varas when you come, but let's
                          fix the date in advance: I live way out in Todos los Santos, so you also
                          have the option to come here, stay at my home, and see a couple of
                          installations.

                          Greetings,

                          Max


                          El mar, 19 de 10 de 2004 a las 10:37, Carlos Bonifetti escribió:
                          > Dear Max:
                          >
                          > I'm Carlos from MTF LTDA., Concepcion. I was thinking in your trial
                          for pico-hydro set for low income peasants in the northern chilean
                          Patagonia since a lot of time, but the long distance is a trouble for
                          marketing in site planning. Minimun qty. for low price sets is a must
                          looking for good import discounts. I can offer Turgo or Pelton sets from
                          APR PowerPal www.powerpal.com as we are their representatives in Chile.
                          I was in trouble for answer you because an updating Windows XP had thow
                          away several mail adresses from my directory.
                          >
                          > I know chinese sets from Maqchin, Santiago, but not in practice. The
                          technical specs. and data for those turbine sets are poor an too general
                          for heigth, flow ranges, control, etc., for a safe application.
                          Permanent magnet alternators can be used only for light en uses as
                          lamps, TV and video sets, radio, and very small domestic electical
                          powered devices; I think that refrigerator can't connected because the
                          high starting current.
                          >
                          > Our experience with PowerPal is good with the low head MHG-LH sets for
                          200, 500 & 1000 Watts, permanent magnet alternators running at 1000 RPM.
                          Water flow needed for those are 35, 70 and 130 l/s respectively for 1.5
                          m gross head. We have, installed by us, a MHG-1000 in the Quinquen
                          Valley rural school (near Lonquimay) and works well since 1991.
                          >
                          > Perhaps will be good that we can both program a meeting in Puerto
                          Varas for talk, face to face, about this interesting and very important
                          and common task.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Carlos Bonifetti
                          > Concepción, Chile
                          >
                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Max Klohn
                          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:37 AM
                          > Subject: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear all,
                          >
                          > For a project oriented at low-income, isolated mountain dwellers in
                          > northern patagonia, I have been looking at ready-made, low cost
                          peltric
                          > sets, or the possibility to import or have built Induction Motor
                          > Controllers. Typical parameters are 1-5 l/s and 30 to 100 m head. The
                          > equipment has to be low cost, low maintainance and robust, and
                          involves
                          > a significant component of technology transfer to the rural dwellers
                          who
                          > must be able to maintain their equipment.
                          >
                          > I have recently come upon the following chinese sets, who feature a
                          > permanent magnet alternator, a controller and a dump load (integrated
                          in
                          > the base).
                          >
                          http://www.maqchin.com/maqchin/pages/maquinaria_china_ltda_productos_cen
                          trales_hidroelectricas.htm
                          > models of interest are XJL 13-2 x 4.5 (750 W) and XJL 1 x 3.0 (3000 W)
                          >
                          > In the model I could examine, the rotor was a relatively crudely built
                          > (unpolished) turgo. The nozzle is huge and it is geared towards lower
                          > heights and bigger flows. I am trying to get the parameters of the
                          > rotational speed etc.
                          >
                          > * does someone have more data and a practical experience with those
                          > sets? lessons learned?
                          > * any experiences into adapting this equipment to higher heads/lower
                          > flows?
                          >
                          > Thank you, and best regards
                          >
                          > Max Klohn
                          >
                          > Puerto Varas, Chile
                          >
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                          ________________________________________________________________________
                          ________________________________________________________________________

                          Message: 2
                          Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:55:27 -0400
                          From: Ron and Diane
                          Subject: Bronze Turgos in Bolivia



                          Hello Carlos,

                          Perhaps you have seen my www.watermotor.net site. We make bronze
                          turgo wheels here in Bolivia for our patented Watermotors. I will send
                          you
                          a photo. These have been tested and certified here at the University of
                          San
                          Andres Hydraulic Institute at 75% efficiency. The one in the photo has a

                          150 mm hydraulic diameter, or about 200 mm overall diameter. You may
                          notice
                          our patented power control switch that makes it possible to use the
                          Watermotor to directly drive machines.
                          All the best,
                          Ron Davis,
                          Campo Nuevo,
                          La Paz, Bolivia


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                        • Carlos Bonifetti
                          Hi Chris: As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers, Sirocco ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 15, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Chris:

                            As an industrial centrifugal, radial & backward curved blade impellers, 'Sirocco' ones and cross flow turbine builder, I can tell you that squirrel fan impellers (or 'Sirocco' type as commercial named) relatively narrow wide could be used as simple/cheap and some poor reliability cross-flow turbine runner, but only for small heads not greater than 8 - 10 meters and small power, because the too thin impeller blades. The fan casing can't be used so it could be made with welded or riveted steel plate. The nozzle must be made with small angular arc very well adjusted to the impeller side plates and without flow control valve thus for fixed flow operation. An epoxy paint, some 5 mils, applied at the impeller will be good for corrosion protection. The water must be very clear without any abrasive particle, sand, etc. Ball bearings can be pillow blocks SKF 'SY' type or equal.

                            Best Regards,

                            Carlos Bonifetti
                            Chile
                            ---------------------------------------------------------
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Hoppy
                            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:10 PM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025



                            Has anyone responded to your question? Squirrel fans do seem like a cheap
                            way to set up a small system...

                            Could you please keep me informed?

                            Chris

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "The Dragon" <nogardthe2@...>
                            To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 PM
                            Subject: [microhydro] Re: Digest Number 1025


                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Didn't anyone ever try using squirrel cage fans as a pass-thru wheel
                            > when doing a really small hydro site? Seems like it would be a good
                            > idea if they are short on funds or lack equipment.
                            > The Dragon
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Max Klohn <amk@c...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear all,
                            > >
                            > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the
                            > > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import
                            > > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective.
                            > >
                            > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a
                            > > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their
                            > replacement
                            > > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained.
                            > >
                            > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally
                            > supplied,
                            > > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more
                            > plastic
                            > > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with
                            > > previous ones.
                            > >
                            > > Let us talk...
                            > > Regards,
                            > >
                            > > Max
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >






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