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Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines

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  • Ron and Diane
    We produce turgos type turbines in Bolivia. See www.watermotor.net Ron Davis ... http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 25, 2003
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      We produce turgos type turbines in Bolivia.
      See www.watermotor.net

      Ron Davis



      At 05:43 p.m. 25/11/03 +0200, you wrote:
      >Dear all,
      >
      >I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
      >local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
      >Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
      >
      >Kind regards,
      >
      >
      >Wim
      >
      > =================================================
      > ir W.E. Klunne
      > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
      > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
      >
      > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
      > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
      > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
      >
      > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
      > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
      > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
      > =================================================
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
      http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
      charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
      >
      >NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
      provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
      endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
      >
      >More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
      >
      >To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • EDDY CASARES
      Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information. I would understand a forum on small hydros for home applictation as most of the messages one
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 25, 2003
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        Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

        I would understand a forum on small hydros for home applictation as most of
        the messages one sees in this group. But having a designer, manufacturer or
        what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
        would be totally absurd.

        This person in Central America. Would he need free money as well to startr
        his business? I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
        me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

        Eddy Casares
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
        To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
        Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


        > Dear all,
        >
        > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
        > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
        > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
        >
        > Kind regards,
        >
        >
        > Wim
        >
        > =================================================
        > ir W.E. Klunne
        > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
        > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
        >
        > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
        > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
        > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
        >
        > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
        > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
        > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
        > =================================================
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
        http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
        charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
        >
        > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
        provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
        endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
        >
        > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
        >
        > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
        microhydro-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • EcoInn
        Hi Wim, We can supply plastic injection moulded pelton buckets and smart drive PMG s for small (upto 1 kW 12/24/48 vdc) units at very low prices for volume
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 25, 2003
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          Hi Wim,

          We can supply plastic injection moulded pelton buckets and smart drive PMG's for small (upto 1 kW 12/24/48 vdc) units at very low prices for volume orders. Plans provided.

          Minimum orders of parts for 50 turbines would be required.

          Regards


          Michael Lawley
          EcoInnovation

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Wim Klunne
          To: microhydro eGroup
          Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 4:43 AM
          Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


          Dear all,

          I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
          local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
          Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?

          Kind regards,


          Wim

          =================================================
          ir W.E. Klunne
          consultant sustainable energy and climate change
          P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands

          telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
          telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
          fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)

          e-mail: wim.klunne@...
          microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
          personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
          =================================================





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Köhli Thomas
          Dear EDDY CASARES unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis runners is something like a holy
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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            Dear EDDY CASARES

            unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
            seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
            runners is something like a holy grail for them who
            know how to. And another comment I would like to
            place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
            stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
            runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
            with their runner designs? They picked up their first
            toughts from sources to which they had access to and
            from there, they started to improve their design. I
            asume that the requester for blue prints did not
            expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
            designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
            to which others had access to, he will be already very
            happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
            pay for this informations or to make license
            agreements.
            Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
            attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
            how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
            but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
            especially from people who are dealing with this
            topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
            away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
            not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
            hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
            for piping out there. This informations are provided
            by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
            deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
            francis?
            I should stop my fervor now.
            But I would like to give you the link to a research
            center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
            with guaranteed efficiency.

            http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm

            unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
            written in French. however, contact them under
            info@...

            They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.

            http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm

            http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp


            with best regards

            Thomas Köhli






            <gulfatlan@...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
            that anyone would dare to request such
            > information.
            >
            > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home
            > applictation as most of
            > the messages one sees in this group. But having a
            > designer, manufacturer or
            > what have you, release propietary information of
            > this sort and magnitude it
            > would be totally absurd.
            >
            > This person in Central America. Would he need free
            > money as well to startr
            > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of
            > information, please let
            > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
            > freebes.
            >
            > Eddy Casares
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
            > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
            > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
            > turbines
            >
            >
            > > Dear all,
            > >
            > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
            > into the possibility of
            > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
            > in Central America.
            > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
            > to do this?
            > >
            > > Kind regards,
            > >
            > >
            > > Wim
            > >
            > >
            > =================================================
            > > ir W.E. Klunne
            > > consultant sustainable energy and climate
            > change
            > > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
            > Netherlands
            > >
            > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
            > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
            > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
            > e-mail)
            > >
            > > e-mail:
            > wim.klunne@...
            > > microhydro portal:
            > http://microhydropower.net
            > > personal pages:
            > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
            > >
            > =================================================
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
            > business directory at
            > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
            > please register free of
            > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
            > world wide!
            > >
            > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
            > by Yahoogroups who
            > provides us with free email group services. The
            > microhydro-group does not
            > endorse products or support the advertisements in
            > any way.
            > >
            > > More information on micro hydropower at
            > http://microhydropower.net
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
            > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >

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          • lamyser@hidroe.co.cu
            Concerning the production of Pelton turbine for microhyedropower here in Cuba we have this possibility if it is necessary I can contact them because we have
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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              Concerning the production of Pelton turbine for microhyedropower here in Cuba we have this possibility if it is necessary I can contact them because we have more than 100 working without any problem

              Lamyser

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ron and Diane
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines



              We produce turgos type turbines in Bolivia.
              See www.watermotor.net

              Ron Davis



              At 05:43 p.m. 25/11/03 +0200, you wrote:
              >Dear all,
              >
              >I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
              >local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
              >Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
              >
              >Kind regards,
              >
              >
              >Wim
              >
              > =================================================
              > ir W.E. Klunne
              > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
              > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
              >
              > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
              > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
              > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
              >
              > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
              > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
              > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
              > =================================================
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
              http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
              charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
              >
              >NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
              provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
              endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
              >
              >More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
              >
              >To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >



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              ADVERTISEMENT




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              NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.

              More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net

              To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Richard Drover
              Yes indeed And there is no great mystery in the Pelton. Jeremy Thake s excellent book, The Pelton Design Manual explains the subject well and provides plans.
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 4, 2003
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                Yes indeed

                And there is no great mystery in the Pelton. Jeremy Thake's excellent book,
                'The Pelton Design Manual' explains the subject well and provides plans.


                >From: K�hli Thomas <thomaskoehli@...>
                >Reply-To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                >To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:06:40 +0100 (CET)
                >
                >Dear EDDY CASARES
                >
                >unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
                >seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
                >runners is something like a holy grail for them who
                >know how to. And another comment I would like to
                >place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
                >stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
                >runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
                >with their runner designs? They picked up their first
                >toughts from sources to which they had access to and
                >from there, they started to improve their design. I
                >asume that the requester for blue prints did not
                >expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
                >designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
                >to which others had access to, he will be already very
                >happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
                >pay for this informations or to make license
                >agreements.
                >Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
                >attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
                >how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
                >but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
                >especially from people who are dealing with this
                >topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
                >away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
                >not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
                >hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
                >for piping out there. This informations are provided
                >by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
                >deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
                >francis?
                >I should stop my fervor now.
                >But I would like to give you the link to a research
                >center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
                >with guaranteed efficiency.
                >
                >http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
                >
                >unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
                >written in French. however, contact them under
                >info@...
                >
                >They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
                >
                >http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
                >
                >http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
                >
                >
                >with best regards
                >
                >Thomas K�hli
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > <gulfatlan@...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
                >that anyone would dare to request such
                > > information.
                > >
                > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home
                > > applictation as most of
                > > the messages one sees in this group. But having a
                > > designer, manufacturer or
                > > what have you, release propietary information of
                > > this sort and magnitude it
                > > would be totally absurd.
                > >
                > > This person in Central America. Would he need free
                > > money as well to startr
                > > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of
                > > information, please let
                > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
                > > freebes.
                > >
                > > Eddy Casares
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
                > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
                > > turbines
                > >
                > >
                > > > Dear all,
                > > >
                > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
                > > into the possibility of
                > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
                > > in Central America.
                > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
                > > to do this?
                > > >
                > > > Kind regards,
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Wim
                > > >
                > > >
                > > =================================================
                > > > ir W.E. Klunne
                > > > consultant sustainable energy and climate
                > > change
                > > > P.O. Box 420 � 7500 AK Enschede � the
                > > Netherlands
                > > >
                > > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                > > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                > > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
                > > e-mail)
                > > >
                > > > e-mail:
                > > wim.klunne@...
                > > > microhydro portal:
                > > http://microhydropower.net
                > > > personal pages:
                > > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                > > >
                > > =================================================
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
                > > business directory at
                > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
                > > please register free of
                > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
                > > world wide!
                > > >
                > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
                > > by Yahoogroups who
                > > provides us with free email group services. The
                > > microhydro-group does not
                > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
                > > any way.
                > > >
                > > > More information on micro hydropower at
                > > http://microhydropower.net
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                > > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >__________________________________________________________________
                >
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                >Logos und Klingelt�ne f�rs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
                >

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              • Alistair J. Wait
                It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves and confident in their abilities are willing to share information. I am wondering
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 4, 2003
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                  It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.

                  I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to their "propietary information"?

                  What a wank!

                  There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves


                  EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
                  Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

                  I would understand a forum on small hydros for home applictation as most of
                  the messages one sees in this group. But having a designer, manufacturer or
                  what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
                  would be totally absurd.

                  This person in Central America. Would he need free money as well to startr
                  his business? I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
                  me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

                  Eddy Casares
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
                  To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                  Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                  > Dear all,
                  >
                  > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
                  > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
                  > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
                  >
                  > Kind regards,
                  >
                  >
                  > Wim
                  >
                  > =================================================
                  > ir W.E. Klunne
                  > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
                  > P.O. Box 420 � 7500 AK Enschede � the Netherlands
                  >
                  > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                  > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                  > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
                  >
                  > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
                  > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
                  > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                  > =================================================
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                  http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                  charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                  >
                  > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                  provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                  endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                  >
                  > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                  microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >



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                  NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.

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                  To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  Best regards

                  Alistair J. Wait

                  NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,

                  India +91 98250 47626.

                  Fiji +67 9 9262896

                  www.intandem.co.nz



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dane Rogers
                  Thomas, Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares. I too think his reaction was out of line. This forum is a place to share information and promote microhydro.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    Thomas,
                    Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares. I too think his reaction was
                    out of line. This forum is a place to share information and promote
                    microhydro. Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
                    even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
                    a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.

                    I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
                    expertise. However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
                    secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
                    professionally". I have an unusual application involving a very high
                    head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
                    induction generator. The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
                    won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
                    stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
                    output. In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
                    needed to ask lots of technical questions. Most people in this group
                    have been exceptionally helpful. However, others appear helpful, but
                    as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops. I
                    had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
                    not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
                    questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.

                    Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
                    in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
                    highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
                    Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
                    stingyness. A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
                    have what I need, wins my loyalty and business. The same good manners
                    apply in microhydro also. Three cheers to those who have responded
                    helpfully to Win Klunne's request!

                    Dane Rogers


                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
                    > Dear EDDY CASARES
                    >
                    > unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
                    > seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
                    > runners is something like a holy grail for them who
                    > know how to. And another comment I would like to
                    > place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
                    > stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
                    > runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
                    > with their runner designs? They picked up their first
                    > toughts from sources to which they had access to and
                    > from there, they started to improve their design. I
                    > asume that the requester for blue prints did not
                    > expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
                    > designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
                    > to which others had access to, he will be already very
                    > happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
                    > pay for this informations or to make license
                    > agreements.
                    > Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
                    > attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
                    > how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
                    > but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
                    > especially from people who are dealing with this
                    > topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
                    > away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
                    > not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
                    > hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
                    > for piping out there. This informations are provided
                    > by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
                    > deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
                    > francis?
                    > I should stop my fervor now.
                    > But I would like to give you the link to a research
                    > center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
                    > with guaranteed efficiency.
                    >
                    > http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
                    >
                    > unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
                    > written in French. however, contact them under
                    > info@m...
                    >
                    > They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
                    >
                    > http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
                    >
                    >
                    > with best regards
                    >
                    > Thomas Köhli
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
                    > that anyone would dare to request such
                    > > information.
                    > >
                    > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home
                    > > applictation as most of
                    > > the messages one sees in this group. But having a
                    > > designer, manufacturer or
                    > > what have you, release propietary information of
                    > > this sort and magnitude it
                    > > would be totally absurd.
                    > >
                    > > This person in Central America. Would he need free
                    > > money as well to startr
                    > > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of
                    > > information, please let
                    > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
                    > > freebes.
                    > >
                    > > Eddy Casares
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
                    > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                    > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
                    > > turbines
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Dear all,
                    > > >
                    > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
                    > > into the possibility of
                    > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
                    > > in Central America.
                    > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
                    > > to do this?
                    > > >
                    > > > Kind regards,
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Wim
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > =================================================
                    > > > ir W.E. Klunne
                    > > > consultant sustainable energy and climate
                    > > change
                    > > > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
                    > > Netherlands
                    > > >
                    > > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                    > > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                    > > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
                    > > e-mail)
                    > > >
                    > > > e-mail:
                    > > wim.klunne@m...
                    > > > microhydro portal:
                    > > http://microhydropower.net
                    > > > personal pages:
                    > > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                    > > >
                    > > =================================================
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
                    > > business directory at
                    > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
                    > > please register free of
                    > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
                    > > world wide!
                    > > >
                    > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
                    > > by Yahoogroups who
                    > > provides us with free email group services. The
                    > > microhydro-group does not
                    > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
                    > > any way.
                    > > >
                    > > > More information on micro hydropower at
                    > > http://microhydropower.net
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                    > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
                    > Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
                  • Hakan Falk
                    I second this in the strongest possible way. Education and knowledge is the most important assets of humanity and if we are not prepared to share this, the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 6, 2003
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                      I second this in the strongest possible way. Education and knowledge is the
                      most important assets of humanity and if we are not prepared to share this,
                      the world will develop to a horrifying place. This is also why we started .
                      http://energysavingnow.com/
                      Its is also why Wim is generous himself in sharing his own knowledge at his
                      web site. Through the years I met some people who had this attitude of
                      being secret about what they know, but in most cases they actually do not
                      know much themselves and think that the little they know, of often basic
                      physics, is so fantastic.

                      Hakan

                      At 22:13 05/12/2003, you wrote:
                      >Thomas,
                      >Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares. I too think his reaction was
                      >out of line. This forum is a place to share information and promote
                      >microhydro. Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
                      >even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
                      >a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.
                      >
                      >I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
                      >expertise. However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
                      >secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
                      >professionally". I have an unusual application involving a very high
                      >head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
                      >induction generator. The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
                      >won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
                      >stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
                      >output. In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
                      >needed to ask lots of technical questions. Most people in this group
                      >have been exceptionally helpful. However, others appear helpful, but
                      >as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops. I
                      >had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
                      >not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
                      >questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.
                      >
                      >Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
                      >in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
                      >highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
                      >Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
                      >stingyness. A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
                      >have what I need, wins my loyalty and business. The same good manners
                      >apply in microhydro also. Three cheers to those who have responded
                      >helpfully to Win Klunne's request!
                      >
                      >Dane Rogers
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
                      > > Dear EDDY CASARES
                      > >
                      > > unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
                      > > seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
                      > > runners is something like a holy grail for them who
                      > > know how to. And another comment I would like to
                      > > place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
                      > > stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
                      > > runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
                      > > with their runner designs? They picked up their first
                      > > toughts from sources to which they had access to and
                      > > from there, they started to improve their design. I
                      > > asume that the requester for blue prints did not
                      > > expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
                      > > designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
                      > > to which others had access to, he will be already very
                      > > happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
                      > > pay for this informations or to make license
                      > > agreements.
                      > > Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
                      > > attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
                      > > how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
                      > > but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
                      > > especially from people who are dealing with this
                      > > topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
                      > > away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
                      > > not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
                      > > hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
                      > > for piping out there. This informations are provided
                      > > by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
                      > > deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
                      > > francis?
                      > > I should stop my fervor now.
                      > > But I would like to give you the link to a research
                      > > center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
                      > > with guaranteed efficiency.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > <http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm>http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
                      > >
                      > > unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
                      > > written in French. however, contact them under
                      > > info@m...
                      > >
                      > > They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
                      > >
                      > > <http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm>http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
                      > >
                      > >
                      >http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > with best regards
                      > >
                      > > Thomas Köhli
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
                      > > that anyone would dare to request such
                      > > > information.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home
                      > > > applictation as most of
                      > > > the messages one sees in this group. But having a
                      > > > designer, manufacturer or
                      > > > what have you, release propietary information of
                      > > > this sort and magnitude it
                      > > > would be totally absurd.
                      > > >
                      > > > This person in Central America. Would he need free
                      > > > money as well to startr
                      > > > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of
                      > > > information, please let
                      > > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
                      > > > freebes.
                      > > >
                      > > > Eddy Casares
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
                      > > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                      > > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
                      > > > turbines
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Dear all,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
                      > > > into the possibility of
                      > > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
                      > > > in Central America.
                      > > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
                      > > > to do this?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Kind regards,
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Wim
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > =================================================
                      > > > > ir W.E. Klunne
                      > > > > consultant sustainable energy and climate
                      > > > change
                      > > > > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
                      > > > Netherlands
                      > > > >
                      > > > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                      > > > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                      > > > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
                      > > > e-mail)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > e-mail:
                      > > > wim.klunne@m...
                      > > > > microhydro portal:
                      > > > <http://microhydropower.net>http://microhydropower.net
                      > > > > personal pages:
                      > > > <http://microhydropower.net/klunne>http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                      > > > >
                      > > > =================================================
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
                      > > > business directory at
                      > > >
                      > <http://microhydropower.net/directory>http://microhydropower.net/directory
                      > ? If not,
                      > > > please register free of
                      > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
                      > > > world wide!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
                      > > > by Yahoogroups who
                      > > > provides us with free email group services. The
                      > > > microhydro-group does not
                      > > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
                      > > > any way.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > More information on micro hydropower at
                      > > > <http://microhydropower.net>http://microhydropower.net
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                      > > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________________________
                      > >
                      > > Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - <http://mail.yahoo.de>http://mail.yahoo.de
                      > > Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei
                      > <http://sms.yahoo.de>http://sms.yahoo.de
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >ADVERTISEMENT
                      ><http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c6lqcfo/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1070794547/A=1853619/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178356&partid=4116732>
                      >click here
                      >
                      >[]
                      >
                      >
                      >Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                      ><http://microhydropower.net/directory>http://microhydropower.net/directory
                      >? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro
                      >community world wide!
                      >
                      >NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                      >provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                      >endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                      >
                      >More information on micro hydropower at
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                      ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • Nando
                      Dane; Please place your parameters either in this forum or send them to me, I may be able to direct you to the proper area. Nando ... From: Dane Rogers
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 6, 2003
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dane;

                        Please place your parameters either in this forum or send them to me, I may
                        be able to direct you to the proper area.

                        Nando

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dane Rogers" <danerogers@...>
                        To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:13 PM
                        Subject: [microhydro] Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                        Thomas,
                        Thanks for your response to Mr. Casares. I too think his reaction was
                        out of line. This forum is a place to share information and promote
                        microhydro. Only with the generous sharing of information, and yes,
                        even designs, will global microhydro reach it's full potential and as
                        a result, generate maximum business for professional suppliers.

                        I have great admiration for those in this group who freely share their
                        expertise. However, I have also run into, as you say, "big
                        secretiveness, especially from people who are dealing with this topics
                        professionally". I have an unusual application involving a very high
                        head (750 feet), low flow, site with the desire to drive a grid tied
                        induction generator. The bulk of the "home scale" Pelton systems
                        won't support the high head of my site, while the fully professional,
                        stainless Pelton runners, are only produced for much higher power
                        output. In order to design and source a suitable system, I have
                        needed to ask lots of technical questions. Most people in this group
                        have been exceptionally helpful. However, others appear helpful, but
                        as soon a detailed specifics are requested, communication stops. I
                        had one manufacturer who told me he would "make me an offer I could
                        not refuse", then when ask for the specifics, he refused to answer my
                        questions or email. After several attempts I gave up.

                        Good customer relations are important for any product but especially
                        in a technology such as microhydro where a customer/user must be
                        highly educated to successfully apply the available products.
                        Customer loyalty is established by generosity of information, not
                        stingyness. A store that sends me to a competitor when they don't
                        have what I need, wins my loyalty and business. The same good manners
                        apply in microhydro also. Three cheers to those who have responded
                        helpfully to Win Klunne's request!

                        Dane Rogers


                        --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Köhli Thomas <thomaskoehli@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear EDDY CASARES
                        >
                        > unbelievable that someones answer is in such a way, it
                        > seems that construction design of Pelton and Francis
                        > runners is something like a holy grail for them who
                        > know how to. And another comment I would like to
                        > place: there are no stupid or daring questions, only
                        > stupid answers. Do you really think that all of this
                        > runner manufacturers out there started from scratch
                        > with their runner designs? They picked up their first
                        > toughts from sources to which they had access to and
                        > from there, they started to improve their design. I
                        > asume that the requester for blue prints did not
                        > expect to get the latest and sophisticated editions of
                        > designs. but when he already gets some of this sources
                        > to which others had access to, he will be already very
                        > happy. And nowbody said that he wouldn't be willing to
                        > pay for this informations or to make license
                        > agreements.
                        > Your reaction shows in a very decriptive way the
                        > attitude of some individuals in the microhydro scene
                        > how I do experience it. I lot of well meant advices,
                        > but when it comes to the point, big secretiveness,
                        > especially from people who are dealing with this
                        > topics professionaly. It is not meant that they give
                        > away their newest knowledge, but basic knowledge, why
                        > not? When you compare, there are a lot of very good
                        > hints and knows about crossflow turbines and howdos
                        > for piping out there. This informations are provided
                        > by individuals with a lot of idealism, people who
                        > deserve our respect. Why not about pelton, kaplan and
                        > francis?
                        > I should stop my fervor now.
                        > But I would like to give you the link to a research
                        > center from which you can buy blueprints for Peltons
                        > with guaranteed efficiency.
                        >
                        > http://www.mhylab.com/wwwmhylab/index.htm
                        >
                        > unfortunately, for English speaking people, all is
                        > written in French. however, contact them under
                        > info@m...
                        >
                        > They are also in progress to develop a Kaplan turbine.
                        >
                        > http://www.iskb.ch/mhylab.htm
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.romande-energie.ch/wwwromande/pages/groupe/techno_recherche.asp
                        >
                        >
                        > with best regards
                        >
                        > Thomas Köhli
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <gulfatlan@w...> schrieb: > Unbelievable
                        > that anyone would dare to request such
                        > > information.
                        > >
                        > > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home
                        > > applictation as most of
                        > > the messages one sees in this group. But having a
                        > > designer, manufacturer or
                        > > what have you, release propietary information of
                        > > this sort and magnitude it
                        > > would be totally absurd.
                        > >
                        > > This person in Central America. Would he need free
                        > > money as well to startr
                        > > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of
                        > > information, please let
                        > > me know also and let us stand in line for all these
                        > > freebes.
                        > >
                        > > Eddy Casares
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@m...>
                        > > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                        > > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis
                        > > turbines
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Dear all,
                        > > >
                        > > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking
                        > > into the possibility of
                        > > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines
                        > > in Central America.
                        > > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how
                        > > to do this?
                        > > >
                        > > > Kind regards,
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Wim
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > =================================================
                        > > > ir W.E. Klunne
                        > > > consultant sustainable energy and climate
                        > > change
                        > > > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the
                        > > Netherlands
                        > > >
                        > > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                        > > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                        > > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by
                        > > e-mail)
                        > > >
                        > > > e-mail:
                        > > wim.klunne@m...
                        > > > microhydro portal:
                        > > http://microhydropower.net
                        > > > personal pages:
                        > > http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                        > > >
                        > > =================================================
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro
                        > > business directory at
                        > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not,
                        > > please register free of
                        > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community
                        > > world wide!
                        > > >
                        > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added
                        > > by Yahoogroups who
                        > > provides us with free email group services. The
                        > > microhydro-group does not
                        > > endorse products or support the advertisements in
                        > > any way.
                        > > >
                        > > > More information on micro hydropower at
                        > > http://microhydropower.net
                        > > >
                        > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                        > > microhydro-unsubscribe@Y...
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________________________
                        >
                        > Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
                        > Logos und Klingeltöne fürs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de




                        Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                        http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                        charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!

                        NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
                        us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
                        products or support the advertisements in any way.

                        More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net

                        To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • M Reed Enterprises
                        I like your idealistic point of view. However, proprietary information is part of rational business. Thinking that it should be revealed is tantamount to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 6, 2003
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                          I like your idealistic point of view. However, proprietary information is
                          part of rational business. Thinking that it should be revealed is tantamount
                          to believing it is okay to violate a patent.

                          Mike
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Alistair J. Wait" <alistair_wait@...>
                          To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:11 AM
                          Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                          > It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves
                          and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.
                          >
                          > I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
                          forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
                          their "propietary information"?
                          >
                          > What a wank!
                          >
                          > There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves
                          >
                          >
                          > EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
                          > Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.
                          >
                          > I would understand a forum on small hydros for home applictation as most
                          of
                          > the messages one sees in this group. But having a designer, manufacturer
                          or
                          > what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude
                          it
                          > would be totally absurd.
                          >
                          > This person in Central America. Would he need free money as well to
                          startr
                          > his business? I anyone knows about these sources of information, please
                          let
                          > me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.
                          >
                          > Eddy Casares
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
                          > To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                          > Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                          >
                          >
                          > > Dear all,
                          > >
                          > > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
                          > > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
                          > > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
                          > >
                          > > Kind regards,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Wim
                          > >
                          > > =================================================
                          > > ir W.E. Klunne
                          > > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
                          > > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
                          > >
                          > > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                          > > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                          > > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
                          > >
                          > > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
                          > > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
                          > > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                          > > =================================================
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                          > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                          > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                          > >
                          > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                          > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                          > endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                          > >
                          > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                          > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
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                          >
                          >
                          > Best regards
                          >
                          > Alistair J. Wait
                          >
                          > NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,
                          >
                          > India +91 98250 47626.
                          >
                          > Fiji +67 9 9262896
                          >
                          > www.intandem.co.nz
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                          >
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                        • EcoInn
                          Hi All, If you live in NZ, we are planning workshops for the new year on how to build you own Pelton Turbine, the workshop includes all the parts required and
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 6, 2003
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                            Hi All,

                            If you live in NZ, we are planning workshops for the new year on how to
                            build you own Pelton Turbine, the workshop includes all the parts required
                            and you leave with a finished turbine unit all ready to go for your site. We
                            hope to repeat this with a wind turbine workshop later in the year. This
                            will be held at our RE powered workshop outside New Plymouth.

                            My experience with RE is the more systems that are installed the more work
                            you end up with. What tends to happen is you get one property off the
                            ground, this make the neighbors think about it, they cannot live with their
                            neighbor now having free power it makes too much good sense (nothing of
                            course is free) and then they go ahead with a system. I'm very open about
                            what we do, and actively encourage those who have the necessary skills to
                            give it a go. We hope to sell our water turbines in kitset form shortly for
                            exactly this market, lets face it - many people in RE are very practical
                            intelligent individuals who with a bit of guidance can make an excellent job
                            of it.

                            Clearly I can only do this if I make money from it, most people do not want
                            to set up business making turbines using your ideas, they want to save money
                            and live a cleaner lifestyle with less reliance on fossil fuels. They also
                            want to fully understand the product so they can maintain and fix it. If you
                            wanted to copy ideas you could just buy the product. When I worked in the UK
                            striping down competitors products and having a good look was quite normal,
                            and it is the practice in most businesses subject to intense competition.
                            Not quite the same in the RE industry, the market is very small but growing.



                            Regards


                            Michael Lawley
                            EcoInnovation

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Alistair J. Wait <alistair_wait@...>
                            To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:11 AM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                            It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves
                            and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.

                            I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this
                            forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to
                            their "propietary information"?

                            What a wank!

                            There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves


                            EDDY CASARES <gulfatlan@...> wrote:
                            Unbelievable that anyone would dare to request such information.

                            I would understand a forum on small hydros for home applictation as most of
                            the messages one sees in this group. But having a designer, manufacturer or
                            what have you, release propietary information of this sort and magnitude it
                            would be totally absurd.

                            This person in Central America. Would he need free money as well to startr
                            his business? I anyone knows about these sources of information, please let
                            me know also and let us stand in line for all these freebes.

                            Eddy Casares
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Wim Klunne" <wim.klunne@...>
                            To: "microhydro eGroup" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:43 AM
                            Subject: [microhydro] blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                            > Dear all,
                            >
                            > I have been contacted by someone who is looking into the possibility of
                            > local production of Pelton and/or Francis turbines in Central America.
                            > Could anyone help him on good blue prints on how to do this?
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            >
                            >
                            > Wim
                            >
                            > =================================================
                            > ir W.E. Klunne
                            > consultant sustainable energy and climate change
                            > P.O. Box 420 · 7500 AK Enschede · the Netherlands
                            >
                            > telephone South Africa: +27 83 4217914
                            > telephone the Netherlands: +31 6 28964969
                            > fax: +1 360 3432421 (to be delivered by e-mail)
                            >
                            > e-mail: wim.klunne@...
                            > microhydro portal: http://microhydropower.net
                            > personal pages: http://microhydropower.net/klunne
                            > =================================================
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                            http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                            charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                            >
                            > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                            provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                            endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                            >
                            > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                            microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >



                            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

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                            Best regards

                            Alistair J. Wait

                            NZ Tel +64 9 6223544,

                            India +91 98250 47626.

                            Fiji +67 9 9262896

                            www.intandem.co.nz



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                          • Max Enfield
                            ... I can see both sides. This is a topic being hotly debated across many fronts - the human genome project and computer software being two well publicized
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 8, 2003
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                              "Alistair J. Wait" wrote:
                              >
                              > It has always been my experience that people who are secure in themselves and confident in their abilities are willing to share information.
                              >
                              > I am wondering what happens with all the pearls of wisdom gained from this forum? Do some people store them away and pretend they have somehow added to their "propietary information"?
                              >
                              > What a wank!
                              >
                              > There is no scarcity in this world other than that we create ourselves

                              then Mike Reed replied:

                              > I like your idealistic point of view. However, proprietary information is
                              > part of rational business. Thinking that it should be revealed is tantamount
                              > to believing it is okay to violate a patent.

                              I can see both sides. This is a topic being hotly debated across many fronts -
                              the human genome project and computer software being two well publicized
                              examples. However, hydro power is a mature technology. The hydraulics and
                              mechanics, including the design principles for all the commonly used turbine
                              types have been known for a long while. Mostly it was developed during the mid
                              nineteenth century through to the 1920s. The Pelton wheel was invented by
                              Lester Pelton, who obtained his first patent in 1880, while the Francis turbine
                              was invented by J.B. Francis in 1849. The most recent patent I am aware of
                              applying to the popular turbine types was granted in May 1920 to Gilbert, Gilkes
                              & Co [ref: http://www.gilkes.com/company/company_history.pdf%5d for the Turgo
                              wheel turbine that had been invented during that year by Eric Crewdson.

                              There may be a case for intellectual property protection for recently developed
                              electronic controllers or computer software. But for the rest, which comprises
                              the vast bulk of what is discussed in this group, any argument for patent or
                              other protection is in my view ludicrous. My sympathies are with Alistair.

                              Regards,

                              Max Enfield
                              Planetary Power
                            • Evans Engineering
                              Many manufacturers of microhydro equipment are simply individuals or small businesses which are committed to renewable energy and are trying not to loose
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                Many manufacturers of microhydro equipment are simply individuals or
                                small businesses which are committed to renewable energy and are trying
                                not to loose money. I have been ripped off dozens of times (how many of
                                you use electronic load governing?) I fully agree that a forum is to
                                exchange ideas and experiences. I would be happy to publish a lot of the
                                drawings from my 30 years in this field but it's actually cost a lot of
                                money to produce good drawings and manuals and few funding organisations
                                are interested. I get far more uptight when institutions and even NGO's
                                taking my ideas and palm them off as theirs and get large grants and
                                them try and restrict the transfer of the technology to the very people
                                that it was intended to help (you know who you are!).

                                One rule of microhydro is that the length of the specification is
                                inversely proportional to the output of the plant! I am sorry Dane, you
                                haven't had a recent reply from me but as I recall the specifications
                                began to overtake the cost of actually making anything (I can either
                                write a thesis or go into the workshop and make it!) I'm just a 'Village
                                Blacksmith' with a computer who makes cheap turbines, I don't have a
                                sales department to communicate at length!
                                Regards
                                Rupert Evans
                                Evans Engineering

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Dane Rogers [mailto:danerogers@...]
                                Sent: 05 December 2003 21:14
                                To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [microhydro] Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                              • joel
                                Sometimes the same designs are invented by different people without having any knowledge of each others efforts. Rupert, I don t know when you developed
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                  Sometimes the same designs are invented by different people without having
                                  any knowledge of each others efforts.
                                  Rupert, I don't know when you developed electronic load governing but my
                                  brother made an electronic load controller over 20 years ago for our system
                                  without any knowledge that one existed somewhere else. We even thought about
                                  marketing the design until the advent of the internet and I did a search for
                                  electronic load governing and found that there are a number of them out
                                  there.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Evans Engineering" <re@...>
                                  To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:15 AM
                                  Subject: [microhydro] RE: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                                  > Many manufacturers of microhydro equipment are simply individuals or
                                  > small businesses which are committed to renewable energy and are trying
                                  > not to loose money. I have been ripped off dozens of times (how many of
                                  > you use electronic load governing?) I fully agree that a forum is to
                                  > exchange ideas and experiences. I would be happy to publish a lot of the
                                  > drawings from my 30 years in this field but it's actually cost a lot of
                                  > money to produce good drawings and manuals and few funding organisations
                                  > are interested. I get far more uptight when institutions and even NGO's
                                  > taking my ideas and palm them off as theirs and get large grants and
                                  > them try and restrict the transfer of the technology to the very people
                                  > that it was intended to help (you know who you are!).
                                  >
                                  > One rule of microhydro is that the length of the specification is
                                  > inversely proportional to the output of the plant! I am sorry Dane, you
                                  > haven't had a recent reply from me but as I recall the specifications
                                  > began to overtake the cost of actually making anything (I can either
                                  > write a thesis or go into the workshop and make it!) I'm just a 'Village
                                  > Blacksmith' with a computer who makes cheap turbines, I don't have a
                                  > sales department to communicate at length!
                                  > Regards
                                  > Rupert Evans
                                  > Evans Engineering
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Dane Rogers [mailto:danerogers@...]
                                  > Sent: 05 December 2003 21:14
                                  > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [microhydro] Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                                  http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                                  charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                                  >
                                  > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                                  provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                                  endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                  >
                                  > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                                  microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Nando
                                  My first load governing controller Which we called AC Voltage Regulator -- never thought in patent it --, a SCR (General Electric- I may still have the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                    My first "load governing controller" Which we called AC Voltage Regulator --
                                    never thought in patent it --, a SCR (General Electric- I may still have the
                                    manuals ) with a full bridge diodes and using phase loading was built by me
                                    around 1965-67, it was used to control a 2.5 KW Pelton Generator.

                                    Transistorized ( using 200 volts transistors -expensive - in totem pole (
                                    for 600 volts capacity ) in either late 69 or 1970. )
                                    When Mosfets were available my cousin started using them with simple circuit
                                    a developed for him.

                                    Regards

                                    Nando

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "joel" <wd6fyc@...>
                                    To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:21 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] RE: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                                    > Sometimes the same designs are invented by different people without having
                                    > any knowledge of each others efforts.
                                    > Rupert, I don't know when you developed electronic load governing but my
                                    > brother made an electronic load controller over 20 years ago for our
                                    system
                                    > without any knowledge that one existed somewhere else. We even thought
                                    about
                                    > marketing the design until the advent of the internet and I did a search
                                    for
                                    > electronic load governing and found that there are a number of them out
                                    > there.
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Evans Engineering" <re@...>
                                    > To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:15 AM
                                    > Subject: [microhydro] RE: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Many manufacturers of microhydro equipment are simply individuals or
                                    > > small businesses which are committed to renewable energy and are trying
                                    > > not to loose money. I have been ripped off dozens of times (how many of
                                    > > you use electronic load governing?) I fully agree that a forum is to
                                    > > exchange ideas and experiences. I would be happy to publish a lot of the
                                    > > drawings from my 30 years in this field but it's actually cost a lot of
                                    > > money to produce good drawings and manuals and few funding organisations
                                    > > are interested. I get far more uptight when institutions and even NGO's
                                    > > taking my ideas and palm them off as theirs and get large grants and
                                    > > them try and restrict the transfer of the technology to the very people
                                    > > that it was intended to help (you know who you are!).
                                    > >
                                    > > One rule of microhydro is that the length of the specification is
                                    > > inversely proportional to the output of the plant! I am sorry Dane, you
                                    > > haven't had a recent reply from me but as I recall the specifications
                                    > > began to overtake the cost of actually making anything (I can either
                                    > > write a thesis or go into the workshop and make it!) I'm just a 'Village
                                    > > Blacksmith' with a computer who makes cheap turbines, I don't have a
                                    > > sales department to communicate at length!
                                    > > Regards
                                    > > Rupert Evans
                                    > > Evans Engineering
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: Dane Rogers [mailto:danerogers@...]
                                    > > Sent: 05 December 2003 21:14
                                    > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [microhydro] Re: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                                    > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                                    > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                                    > >
                                    > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                                    > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                                    > endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                    > >
                                    > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                                    > >
                                    > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                                    > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                                    http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                                    charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                                    >
                                    > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
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                                    endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                    >
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                                    >
                                  • Evans Engineering
                                    Dear Nando, Most interested to hear about your work with Load control governing . As you may know there were various systems of electric brake governing used
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                      Dear Nando,
                                      Most interested to hear about your work with 'Load control governing'.
                                      As you may know there were various systems of electric brake governing
                                      used in the 1940's. My father came up with the idea of using the surplus
                                      power usefully for heating water, and built a DC load governing system
                                      in 1949 using two generators, one for main load and one for ballast
                                      load. This ran well for about twenty years until a friend introduced us
                                      to SCR and the wonders of AC control in the sixties (about the same time
                                      as you). Incidentally, another hydro engineer who moved to New Zealand
                                      developed a system using 'Valves' (remember those glass things before
                                      transistors!) for a local mill, which worked fairly well. I met Gerry
                                      Pope of GP electronics and we built several hundred units, almost all of
                                      which are still operating. Since then a range of different load
                                      governors have been developed, partly to comply with EMC regulations.

                                      You wrote....
                                      My first "load governing controller" Which we called AC Voltage
                                      Regulator --
                                      never thought in patent it --, a SCR (General Electric- I may still have
                                      the
                                      manuals ) with a full bridge diodes and using phase loading was built by
                                      me
                                      around 1965-67, it was used to control a 2.5 KW Pelton Generator.

                                      Transistorized ( using 200 volts transistors -expensive - in totem pole
                                      (
                                      for 600 volts capacity ) in either late 69 or 1970. )
                                      When Mosfets were available my cousin started using them with simple
                                      circuit
                                      a developed for him.

                                      Regards

                                      Nando
                                    • Nando
                                      RUPERT: I am old but not that old. My first controller was for a Synchronous motor ( converted to AC generators) with an attached DC Generator to regulate the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                        RUPERT:

                                        I am old but not that old.
                                        My first controller was for a Synchronous motor ( converted to AC
                                        generators) with an attached DC Generator to regulate the AC output, I
                                        modulated a series resistance via a pressure solenoid driven by a VALVE or
                                        Tube amplifier that oscillated around 200 Hertz and every 9 to 12 months the
                                        pressure variable resistor had to be changed, year 1956-57.
                                        I replaced the controller and pressure variable resistor around 1968 with a
                                        transistorized unit. (If I remember right about 20 or 30 units were built ).

                                        The other regulators were mechanical in principle, I had one that used the
                                        water to close the water valve feeding the jets, there was a counter weight
                                        to open the ball valve and when the voltage was too high with a Valve or
                                        tube amplifier an electric valve was opened to fill a container with water
                                        to contra-rest the counter weight to slowly close the ball valve ( the
                                        container had a leak hole ); the contraption worked for years, indeed very
                                        well, valve replacement every 4 or 5 years since I starved the design to
                                        prolong the tubes' life.

                                        The SCR controller used the reverse of a light dimmer, if the voltage
                                        increased the phase angle increased placing the resistive load harder on the
                                        output, I used the electric resistive kitchen burners that in my native
                                        country were made with a resistive coiled string and when the burners
                                        started to open due to the cherry high temperature, I started to put several
                                        in series and in parallel to make sure that the wire did not glow at all,
                                        prolonging the load resistor to the life of the system.

                                        I do not how many were built since my cousin did the building and I was in
                                        USA, but supported him for years.

                                        By the way, about the same circuit ( with Triacs) is now used by the POWER
                                        PAL small hydro electric units, and they may even have eliminated the
                                        resistive load and just using the dimmer circuit to load their alternators,
                                        so they may have limited the phase angle to certain maximum value to insure
                                        alternator protection.

                                        Of course, you may remember the SELENIUM Rectifiers, that with 24 volts
                                        motors and a lot of electronic surplus arrived to my native country, after
                                        WWII, in volume.

                                        I made Peltons in LEAD for 30 to 50 watts using the surplus motors and
                                        rectifiers that were rewired for low voltage and quasi-sensitive relays to
                                        fill the bucket to regulate the voltage to charge 6 and 12 volts systems for
                                        small farm lighting.

                                        My family may have been a pioneer in electricity in my native country when
                                        some relatives studied in USA and learned about the Pelton and the propeller
                                        turbines and brought them to their farms and houses in my native country, I
                                        remember crude Peltons in cast iron that had a date late 1800 and still used
                                        in the 1930's when some were changed for a new improved Pelton around that
                                        date, big heavy DC Generators,.

                                        Regards

                                        Nando




                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Evans Engineering" <re@...>
                                        To: <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:53 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [microhydro] RE: blue prints Pelton / Francis turbines


                                        > Dear Nando,
                                        > Most interested to hear about your work with 'Load control governing'.
                                        > As you may know there were various systems of electric brake governing
                                        > used in the 1940's. My father came up with the idea of using the surplus
                                        > power usefully for heating water, and built a DC load governing system
                                        > in 1949 using two generators, one for main load and one for ballast
                                        > load. This ran well for about twenty years until a friend introduced us
                                        > to SCR and the wonders of AC control in the sixties (about the same time
                                        > as you). Incidentally, another hydro engineer who moved to New Zealand
                                        > developed a system using 'Valves' (remember those glass things before
                                        > transistors!) for a local mill, which worked fairly well. I met Gerry
                                        > Pope of GP electronics and we built several hundred units, almost all of
                                        > which are still operating. Since then a range of different load
                                        > governors have been developed, partly to comply with EMC regulations.
                                        >
                                        > You wrote....
                                        > My first "load governing controller" Which we called AC Voltage
                                        > Regulator --
                                        > never thought in patent it --, a SCR (General Electric- I may still have
                                        > the
                                        > manuals ) with a full bridge diodes and using phase loading was built by
                                        > me
                                        > around 1965-67, it was used to control a 2.5 KW Pelton Generator.
                                        >
                                        > Transistorized ( using 200 volts transistors -expensive - in totem pole
                                        > (
                                        > for 600 volts capacity ) in either late 69 or 1970. )
                                        > When Mosfets were available my cousin started using them with simple
                                        > circuit
                                        > a developed for him.
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        >
                                        > Nando
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • hc pathak
                                        all turbine manufacturer who is suply me 2*50 kw and 50 kw set please give me quatation 1 bank 2*50 kw capacity discharge o.55 cumec 35 m head 2 2*50 kw
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 12, 2003
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                                          all turbine manufacturer who is suply me 2*50 kw and
                                          50 kw set please give me quatation
                                          1 bank 2*50 kw capacity discharge o.55 cumec 35 m
                                          head 2 2*50 kw capacity discharge,o.25 head 65 mand
                                          other thre sites


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