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RE: [microhydro] Re: EFD/MFD power generation from hydro?

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  • Hanks, Russ MVK
    It doesn t seem to me that charged aerosols would be cheap enough to compete with free water. How are you going to charge the water? It would be nice to
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 1, 2001
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      It doesn't seem to me that "charged aerosols" would be cheap
      enough to compete with free water. How are you going to "charge" the water?
      It would be nice to avoid going thru a mechanical conversion in your
      electricity generation process, and do something more direct, like EFD. I
      just don't think water has the right properties (like enough charge).
      EFD relies on high energy particles - lots of charged particles,
      high flow rate. Kinetic energy is much easier to utilize directly. I'm not
      saying that you can't do this, just that you can spend more energy doing it
      than you could gain. Unless you have a really unusual
      application........perhaps an EFD generator combined with your hydro system?
      Wouldn't you lose part of the kinetic energy from the hydro system to
      generate EFD energy? I don't think EFD would be as efficient as a turbine in
      converting kinetic energy to electricity - at least, not using ordinary
      water. Which is to say your turbine is more efficient by itself than a
      combined system.
      A magneto-hydrodynmaic pump might be practical. What exactly do
      you mean by magneto-hydrodynamic conversion? I'm assuming that you mean
      converting the kinetic energy to electricity via an EFD process. Commercial
      EFD generators or pumps (like in nuclear reactors) seem to require exotic
      fluids.
      It's been proposed to do this with sea water, and maybe there have
      been some systems (I'm out of date) built. I hardly think it's practical for
      an individual to use. (which they probably say about hydro power, too). I
      just don't think there is much potential energy there. It's probably
      comparable to using thermal differences in different depths of ocean to run
      a generator. One might add on EFD conversion to such a system & gain some
      more energy.

      Conductivity of water: There may be a typical value for the conductivity of
      sea water (I'm sure there is, but I don't have it handy) but there is no
      such thing as typical river water. It's somewhere between distilled water
      and sea water (usually). I can probably get you some numbers for, say, the
      Mississippi River, but I'm sure that such numbers vary all over the place,
      depending on weather and time of year. I'd ask someone who deals with
      electolytic corrosion protection, either on boats (mainly sea going) or
      locks & dams (or other structures) on the river of interest.


      Russ

      -----Original Message-----
      From: jbrilhart@... [mailto:jbrilhart@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:56 PM
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [microhydro] Re: EFD/MFD power generation from hydro?


      --- In microhydro@y..., "F. Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@m...> wrote:
      > Some time ago I became fascinated with Alvin Marks' decades-long
      work on
      > electro-fluid-dynamic power from wind. I wonder if it would not be
      more
      > practical when implemented with hydro as the source. Has anybody
      > explored this?
      >
      > For those not in the picture, EFD is a means of converting the
      kinetic
      > energy of a fluid flow into electricity at very high voltages and
      low
      > currents by moving charged aerosols against an empressed electric
      field
      > gradient. The Marks implementation uses water droplets charged by a
      > corona device, and carried along by the wind. But it seems to me
      that a
      > high-pressure nozzle could also produce an aerosol. The interaction
      of
      > the droplets with the surrounding air would induce air motion,
      which in
      > turn would keep the aerosol droplets moving when the electric field
      > began to slow them down.
      >
      > Also looking into magneto-hydrodynamic conversion, but the question
      > there is the conductivity of the water. Anybody have typical
      figures for
      > conductivity of river waters?
      >
      > Marc de Piolenc

      See http://www.kgs.ukans.edu/Hydro/UARC/quality-report.html




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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • F. Marc de Piolenc
      ... Alvin M. Marks holds a whole passel of patents going back to 1949 on charging aerosol particles, and on achieving just the right ratio of size to charge.
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 2, 2001
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        > Message: 1
        > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:08:50 -0500
        > From: "Hanks, Russ MVK" <russ.hanks@...>
        > Subject: RE: Re: EFD/MFD power generation from hydro?
        >
        > It doesn't seem to me that "charged aerosols" would be cheap
        > enough to compete with free water. How are you going to "charge" the water?
        > It would be nice to avoid going thru a mechanical conversion in your
        > electricity generation process, and do something more direct, like EFD. I
        > just don't think water has the right properties (like enough charge).

        Alvin M. Marks holds a whole passel of patents going back to 1949 on
        charging aerosol particles, and on achieving just the "right" ratio of
        size to charge. Basically, the technique is corona discharge, but there
        are many variations.

        Marc de Piolenc
      • John Herring
        Thanks Russ, and Marc For your inquisitiveness email`s and I learned something new. {;-) But E.L.S.A. The Gravity-Mill is ever so much simpler than you think,
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 3, 2001
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          Thanks Russ, and Marc For your inquisitiveness email`s
          and I learned something new. {;-)
          But E.L.S.A. The Gravity-Mill is ever so much simpler
          than you think, All it involves is changing the pull
          of Gravity by Leverage "volume aver`s weight" the way
          the pyramids were built the only difference is
          E.L.S.A.`s leverage is Designed with Modern-Man`s
          materials and technology not Man-Power, With that in
          mind; E.L.S.A. The Gravity_Mill Machine displaces
          3,882 lb`s of water per cubic ft' of shuttle device
          "shuttle is a device that has a horizontal controlled
          orbit, And it is not attached to any thing." and the 1
          cubic ft' of shuttle can be multiplied a 100 or more
          times, It dose not mean perpetual-motion, E.L.S.A.
          need`s keep-up, and parts eventually do were out.
          Please be patient with me please Russ, and Marc I am
          getting to ether a Special announcement with free
          licensing to all Micro-Hydro`s 400 e group member`s
          and nonprofit group`s around the world, I am planing
          it for 6:PM PST. 8-8-2001, I have already sent over
          400 set`s of E.L.S.A.`s drawings with a license to
          build there own, To private citizan`s and Companies
          for private use. Over three hundred of them here in
          the U.S.A., and about 60 set`s around the world. I
          have over 100 email's thanking and praising me for my
          drawing`s of E.L.S.A., I also have received 2 very sei
          rous threats on my life. I will not let myself be
          deter-d by threats like I did back in 1986 when a
          bullet missed my wife`s head by an inch in our
          motor-home, It was men t for me. Thank you
          Nevada-Power.
          This was my answer to the 2 last year threats; I sent
          information of E.L.S.A. to over 150 Senator`s,
          Congress-men-women, Including the President and Vice
          President And also dozen`s of head`s of state around
          the world.
          I care about my life but I`m doing my best to make
          sure E.L.S.A. does not die with me. So much for
          personal crap.
          gravity_mill@... is under construction. I need
          to find some way of up-loading as many as 20 computer
          generated drawing`s to the gravity_mill`s web page.
          Once again thank you for your email`s
          Have a nice day.
          John
          --- "Hanks, Russ MVK"
          <russ.hanks@...> wrote:
          > It doesn't seem to me that "charged
          > aerosols" would be cheap
          > enough to compete with free water. How are you going
          > to "charge" the water?
          > It would be nice to avoid going thru a mechanical
          > conversion in your
          > electricity generation process, and do something
          > more direct, like EFD. I
          > just don't think water has the right properties
          > (like enough charge).
          > EFD relies on high energy particles - lots
          > of charged particles,
          > high flow rate. Kinetic energy is much easier to
          > utilize directly. I'm not
          > saying that you can't do this, just that you can
          > spend more energy doing it
          > than you could gain. Unless you have a really
          > unusual
          > application........perhaps an EFD generator combined
          > with your hydro system?
          > Wouldn't you lose part of the kinetic energy from
          > the hydro system to
          > generate EFD energy? I don't think EFD would be as
          > efficient as a turbine in
          > converting kinetic energy to electricity - at least,
          > not using ordinary
          > water. Which is to say your turbine is more
          > efficient by itself than a
          > combined system.
          > A magneto-hydrodynmaic pump might be
          > practical. What exactly do
          > you mean by magneto-hydrodynamic conversion? I'm
          > assuming that you mean
          > converting the kinetic energy to electricity via an
          > EFD process. Commercial
          > EFD generators or pumps (like in nuclear reactors)
          > seem to require exotic
          > fluids.
          > It's been proposed to do this with sea
          > water, and maybe there have
          > been some systems (I'm out of date) built. I hardly
          > think it's practical for
          > an individual to use. (which they probably say about
          > hydro power, too). I
          > just don't think there is much potential energy
          > there. It's probably
          > comparable to using thermal differences in different
          > depths of ocean to run
          > a generator. One might add on EFD conversion to such
          > a system & gain some
          > more energy.
          >
          > Conductivity of water: There may be a typical value
          > for the conductivity of
          > sea water (I'm sure there is, but I don't have it
          > handy) but there is no
          > such thing as typical river water. It's somewhere
          > between distilled water
          > and sea water (usually). I can probably get you some
          > numbers for, say, the
          > Mississippi River, but I'm sure that such numbers
          > vary all over the place,
          > depending on weather and time of year. I'd ask
          > someone who deals with
          > electolytic corrosion protection, either on boats
          > (mainly sea going) or
          > locks & dams (or other structures) on the river of
          > interest.
          >
          >
          > Russ
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: jbrilhart@...
          > [mailto:jbrilhart@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:56 PM
          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [microhydro] Re: EFD/MFD power generation
          > from hydro?
          >
          >
          > --- In microhydro@y..., "F. Marc de Piolenc"
          > <piolenc@m...> wrote:
          > > Some time ago I became fascinated with Alvin
          > Marks' decades-long
          > work on
          > > electro-fluid-dynamic power from wind. I wonder if
          > it would not be
          > more
          > > practical when implemented with hydro as the
          > source. Has anybody
          > > explored this?
          > >
          > > For those not in the picture, EFD is a means of
          > converting the
          > kinetic
          > > energy of a fluid flow into electricity at very
          > high voltages and
          > low
          > > currents by moving charged aerosols against an
          > empressed electric
          > field
          > > gradient. The Marks implementation uses water
          > droplets charged by a
          > > corona device, and carried along by the wind. But
          > it seems to me
          > that a
          > > high-pressure nozzle could also produce an
          > aerosol. The interaction
          > of
          > > the droplets with the surrounding air would induce
          > air motion,
          > which in
          > > turn would keep the aerosol droplets moving when
          > the electric field
          > > began to slow them down.
          > >
          > > Also looking into magneto-hydrodynamic conversion,
          > but the question
          > > there is the conductivity of the water. Anybody
          > have typical
          > figures for
          > > conductivity of river waters?
          > >
          > > Marc de Piolenc
          >
          > See
          >
          http://www.kgs.ukans.edu/Hydro/UARC/quality-report.html
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by
          > Yahoogroups who provides
          > us with free email group services. The
          > microhydro-group does not endorse
          > products or support the advertisements in any way.
          >
          > More information on micro hydropower at
          > http://geocities.com/wim_klunne/hydro
          >
          > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
          > microhydro-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >


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        • tribhuwan anand
          Dear Mr.Marc de Piolenc I need your opinion and experience on the following 1.the direction of the stream (I mean polarity)? 2.the mineral present in the
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 7, 2001
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            Dear Mr.Marc de Piolenc
            I need your opinion and experience on the following

            1.the direction of the stream (I mean polarity)?
            2.the mineral present in the moving mass (the Ferro magnetic substances) !
            3.the humidity present !
            4.the wind conditions !

            these factors might provide a direction to the researchers on EFD/MFD areas
            !!!!
            thanks for reading this mail and your valuable time. I am no researcher but
            have commercial interest in MicroHYDRO and non conventional energy sources.
            thanks
            tribhuwan anand
          • F. Marc de Piolenc
            From: tribhuwan anand wrote: Dear Mr.Marc de Piolenc I need your opinion and experience on the following 1.the direction of the stream
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 8, 2001
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              From: "tribhuwan anand" <trendy56@...> wrote:


              "Dear Mr.Marc de Piolenc
              I need your opinion and experience on the following

              1.the direction of the stream (I mean polarity)?"

              If you mean the electrical current, in MHD the current is generated at
              right angles to both the motion of the conductor (in this case water)
              and the impressed magnetic field.

              "2.the mineral present in the moving mass (the Ferro magnetic
              substances) !"

              MHD only requires that the medium be electrically conductive. I don't
              know what effect ferromagnetic particles suspended in the water would
              have - presumably they would orient themselves to the impressed magnetic
              field. What else they would do is not clear to me.

              "3.the humidity present !"

              For EFD, non-condensing humidity is a limiting factor on the potential
              to which the flowinng aerosol suspension can be charged. In MHD, the
              channel is full of electrolyte so the ambient humidity presumably has no
              effect.

              "4.the wind conditions !"

              Now you really have me confused.

              Best,
              Marc de Piolenc
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