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Re: [microhydro] Re: measuring flow

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  • nando37
    HUGH & All those interested: To learn the tricks of hydro electric principles takes quite sometimes though basic principles may be enough if instead of going
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 16, 2013
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      HUGH & All those interested:

      To learn the tricks of hydro electric principles takes quite sometimes though basic principles may be enough if instead of going head on to try  You ask questions indicating the need to know the steps of each ladder = system.

      1) Measure the pipe ( penstock) length ( meters or feet ) ,
      numbers of elbows and abrupt changes in direction ( elbows ) ,
      diameter of the pipe or pipes from intake to where the turbine may need to be,
      Pipe material and how it is internally

      Head ( meters or feet ) the pipe runs down to the turbine = height differential

      If  possible close the pipe with a pressure gauge and measure the static pressure in PSI or KG/cm^2.

      Then start t  open the flow slowly until the pressure drops to 69 % and measure the water flow at that point in liter/sec or GPM ( do not use hour or day rates ) MAKING SURE that the pipe intake is fully filling the intake during the testing .

      Determine the variation ( seasonal ) of the water volume in the system.

      All this is the most basic site parameters that can give you an overall available power that can be harvested from such irrigation or penstock system.

      Then report the finding to the group and some will have the know how to tell you how much power can be harvested at different water volume due to the season variations.

      Nando



      On 7/15/2013 12:00, Hugh Duncan-Brown wrote:
       
      Following from Lombard56, many South African farmers will be looking to save electricity.This is an arid land so the opportunity for hydro power is limited.Electricity which had always been abundant and cheap has suddenly become expensive in the last five years.But the irrigation lines which exist have been there for a long time.So the trick is to learn how to tag on hydro systems to these systems.I want to learn this trick.Many thanks to Rambo and others for the ideas put forward so far.
      Hugh                            

    • Tony Goffe
      ....Hello everybody...Nando.....Mangred..Bob Weir... My laptop died due to an induced power surge,,,induced from a nearby lightning strike....well, two
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
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        ....Hello everybody...Nando.....Mangred..Bob Weir... My laptop died due to an induced power surge,,,induced from a nearby lightning strike....well, two motherboards later...it seems to be working..

         

        Hugh's letter brought to mind a long-standing question... Has anyone in the group had experience with an "in-the-pipeline" turbine ??

          Our waterline that feeds our capitol.. Kingston..is miles long and (I know.. not detailed enough..) is downhill all the way... Years ago , Igot the contour profile from an employee and there was potential.. Of course, notwithstanding that we are the "fastest nation in the world" in sprinting...we (the Govt. apparatus, to be more exact) is sooooo SLOW...!!!

        And... Jamaicans have to SHOWN that something works..as most say : "Well...if it could be done...someone would have.. already !!"..SIGH ...

         

        nice to be back..    tony




        From: "nando37" <nando37@...>
        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:41 PM
        To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [microhydro] measuring flow


         

        HUGH:
        Your information is a bit too low in data !!!

        1) Filtration process needs to be determined CAREFULLY -- because it may have a lot of losses in pressure -- and needs to determine how to optimize the filtration without the pressure losses.

        2) The penststockt length and the change in diameter to see how to improve the pressure versus water delivered to optimize the wanted generated power.

        3) 5 bar = 5 * 14.7 = 73.5 psi = 169.75 feet = 51.7 meters head -- at this point a generator  could produce  51.7 * 6 = 310 watts per liter/sec of water volume flowing at 5 bar pressure.

        4) 2 Bar pressure : 2 * 14.7 = 29.4 psi = 20.7 meter head which is a low producing source  of around 20.7 * 6 = 124 watt per liter/sec of water volume

        The flow rate in this case is difficult to determine because there are several unknowns extremely hard to know .

        To improve the generation power it is best to determine the penstock length of the 200 mm pipe ( critical point to maximize the power generation point ) and the determination of the flow at this point to see what  power level can be harvested , then the process of reducing the pipe diameter to 160 mm and the reasoning for the reduction including the penstock length -- so there is a need to see the whole process to determine the maximum flow allowed within the capabilities of the water source and how to optimize the power energy harvesting .

        Several ways to use the water for irrigation and energy harvesting can be adapted to attain maximum use in each case, sometimes both at the same time  or done sequentially depending on the water source limits and capabilities.

        The process seems to be ideal to be implemented at the end of the 200 mm penstock if there is enough head to produce the wanted energy. and at the same time to do the filtration process -- all depends .

        WATER FLOW -- needs to be determined accurately  !!! -- irrigation at 2 bar does not tell how the water volume is -- which is low

        A Turgo turbine is the easiest to build

        Nando




        On 7/4/2013 03:33, Hugh Duncan-Brown wrote:
         
        I met a farmer who irrigates extensively from a mountain dam.The water from the dam runs a considerable distance - say - 1km to where his pumps are.The initial feed is a 200mm pipe which reduces to 160mm after it goes trough a filtration process.The pressure at the outlet point is 5 bar and his irrigation system is kept a 2 bar.What is the potential to produce power?Can I calculate the flow rate?The land across which the pipe runs is relatively flat.What sort of turbine would he need?
        Any ideas?
        regards
        Hugh


      • nando37
        TONY: Good to see you are alive again !!! Most waterline feeding large cities have pressure reducers in certain places and you need to investigate where those
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
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          TONY:

          Good to see you are alive again !!!

          Most waterline feeding large cities have pressure reducers in certain places and you need to investigate where those presure reducers are located and at the same time determine what pressure differential thel reducers controls.

          Knowing those values the it is easy to replace a tube section with a bulb turbine ( inline) that is designed to reduce the pressure as needed and knowing how much pressure is reduced then it is easy to calculate the power that can be generated.

          California have extremely long waterways coming from as fas as Canada and the pressure reducers are generators to assist the pumps when the water has to be pumped up to follow the contour of the land and when the land forces a down hill generating a lot of pressure the generators are installed to produce the power for extra available energy.

          Some of the waterways are open canals and some are very large pipes as well.

          Nando


          On 8/18/2013 08:58, Tony Goffe wrote:
           

          ....Hello everybody...Nando.....Mangred..Bob Weir... My laptop died due to an induced power surge,,,induced from a nearby lightning strike....well, two motherboards later...it seems to be working..

           

          Hugh's letter brought to mind a long-standing question... Has anyone in the group had experience with an "in-the-pipeline" turbine ??

            Our waterline that feeds our capitol.. Kingston..is miles long and (I know.. not detailed enough..) is downhill all the way... Years ago , Igot the contour profile from an employee and there was potential.. Of course, notwithstanding that we are the "fastest nation in the world" in sprinting...we (the Govt. apparatus, to be more exact) is sooooo SLOW...!!!

          And... Jamaicans have to SHOWN that something works..as most say : "Well...if it could be done...someone would have.. already !!"..SIGH ...

           

          nice to be back..    tony




          From: "nando37" <nando37@...>
          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:41 PM
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] measuring flow


           

          HUGH:
          Your information is a bit too low in data !!!

          1) Filtration process needs to be determined CAREFULLY -- because it may have a lot of losses in pressure -- and needs to determine how to optimize the filtration without the pressure losses.

          2) The penststockt length and the change in diameter to see how to improve the pressure versus water delivered to optimize the wanted generated power.

          3) 5 bar = 5 * 14.7 = 73.5 psi = 169.75 feet = 51.7 meters head -- at this point a generator  could produce  51.7 * 6 = 310 watts per liter/sec of water volume flowing at 5 bar pressure.

          4) 2 Bar pressure : 2 * 14.7 = 29.4 psi = 20.7 meter head which is a low producing source  of around 20.7 * 6 = 124 watt per liter/sec of water volume

          The flow rate in this case is difficult to determine because there are several unknowns extremely hard to know .

          To improve the generation power it is best to determine the penstock length of the 200 mm pipe ( critical point to maximize the power generation point ) and the determination of the flow at this point to see what  power level can be harvested , then the process of reducing the pipe diameter to 160 mm and the reasoning for the reduction including the penstock length -- so there is a need to see the whole process to determine the maximum flow allowed within the capabilities of the water source and how to optimize the power energy harvesting .

          Several ways to use the water for irrigation and energy harvesting can be adapted to attain maximum use in each case, sometimes both at the same time  or done sequentially depending on the water source limits and capabilities.

          The process seems to be ideal to be implemented at the end of the 200 mm penstock if there is enough head to produce the wanted energy. and at the same time to do the filtration process -- all depends .

          WATER FLOW -- needs to be determined accurately  !!! -- irrigation at 2 bar does not tell how the water volume is -- which is low

          A Turgo turbine is the easiest to build

          Nando




          On 7/4/2013 03:33, Hugh Duncan-Brown wrote:
           
          I met a farmer who irrigates extensively from a mountain dam.The water from the dam runs a considerable distance - say - 1km to where his pumps are.The initial feed is a 200mm pipe which reduces to 160mm after it goes trough a filtration process.The pressure at the outlet point is 5 bar and his irrigation system is kept a 2 bar.What is the potential to produce power?Can I calculate the flow rate?The land across which the pipe runs is relatively flat.What sort of turbine would he need?
          Any ideas?
          regards
          Hugh



      • Allhydro
        That s good Nando. Tony is back and we are All glad. Angel Angel L. Ricardo - President RECA - Corp. president@reca-corp.com http://reca-corp.com/index.html
        Message 4 of 8 , Aug 19, 2013
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          That's good Nando. Tony is back and we are All glad.
          Angel

          Angel L. Ricardo - President
          RECA - Corp.

          El Aug 18, 2013, a las 4:31 PM, nando37 <nando37@...> escribió:

           

          TONY:

          Good to see you are alive again !!!

          Most waterline feeding large cities have pressure reducers in certain places and you need to investigate where those presure reducers are located and at the same time determine what pressure differential thel reducers controls.

          Knowing those values the it is easy to replace a tube section with a bulb turbine ( inline) that is designed to reduce the pressure as needed and knowing how much pressure is reduced then it is easy to calculate the power that can be generated.

          California have extremely long waterways coming from as fas as Canada and the pressure reducers are generators to assist the pumps when the water has to be pumped up to follow the contour of the land and when the land forces a down hill generating a lot of pressure the generators are installed to produce the power for extra available energy.

          Some of the waterways are open canals and some are very large pipes as well.

          Nando


          On 8/18/2013 08:58, Tony Goffe wrote:
           

          ....Hello everybody...Nando.....Mangred..Bob Weir... My laptop died due to an induced power surge,,,induced from a nearby lightning strike....well, two motherboards later...it seems to be working..

           

          Hugh's letter brought to mind a long-standing question... Has anyone in the group had experience with an "in-the-pipeline" turbine ??

            Our waterline that feeds our capitol.. Kingston..is miles long and (I know.. not detailed enough..) is downhill all the way... Years ago , Igot the contour profile from an employee and there was potential.. Of course, notwithstanding that we are the "fastest nation in the world" in sprinting...we (the Govt. apparatus, to be more exact) is sooooo SLOW...!!!

          And... Jamaicans have to SHOWN that something works..as most say : "Well...if it could be done...someone would have.. already !!"..SIGH ...

           

          nice to be back..    tony




          From: "nando37" <nando37@...>
          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:41 PM
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] measuring flow


           

          HUGH:
          Your information is a bit too low in data !!!

          1) Filtration process needs to be determined CAREFULLY -- because it may have a lot of losses in pressure -- and needs to determine how to optimize the filtration without the pressure losses.

          2) The penststockt length and the change in diameter to see how to improve the pressure versus water delivered to optimize the wanted generated power.

          3) 5 bar = 5 * 14.7 = 73.5 psi = 169.75 feet = 51.7 meters head -- at this point a generator  could produce  51.7 * 6 = 310 watts per liter/sec of water volume flowing at 5 bar pressure.

          4) 2 Bar pressure : 2 * 14.7 = 29.4 psi = 20.7 meter head which is a low producing source  of around 20.7 * 6 = 124 watt per liter/sec of water volume

          The flow rate in this case is difficult to determine because there are several unknowns extremely hard to know .

          To improve the generation power it is best to determine the penstock length of the 200 mm pipe ( critical point to maximize the power generation point ) and the determination of the flow at this point to see what  power level can be harvested , then the process of reducing the pipe diameter to 160 mm and the reasoning for the reduction including the penstock length -- so there is a need to see the whole process to determine the maximum flow allowed within the capabilities of the water source and how to optimize the power energy harvesting .

          Several ways to use the water for irrigation and energy harvesting can be adapted to attain maximum use in each case, sometimes both at the same time  or done sequentially depending on the water source limits and capabilities.

          The process seems to be ideal to be implemented at the end of the 200 mm penstock if there is enough head to produce the wanted energy. and at the same time to do the filtration process -- all depends .

          WATER FLOW -- needs to be determined accurately  !!! -- irrigation at 2 bar does not tell how the water volume is -- which is low

          A Turgo turbine is the easiest to build

          Nando




          On 7/4/2013 03:33, Hugh Duncan-Brown wrote:
           
          I met a farmer who irrigates extensively from a mountain dam.The water from the dam runs a considerable distance - say - 1km to where his pumps are.The initial feed is a 200mm pipe which reduces to 160mm after it goes trough a filtration process.The pressure at the outlet point is 5 bar and his irrigation system is kept a 2 bar.What is the potential to produce power?Can I calculate the flow rate?The land across which the pipe runs is relatively flat.What sort of turbine would he need?
          Any ideas?
          regards
          Hugh



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