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Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

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  • adirondackpash1
    I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote off grid camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 4, 2013
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      I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
      thanks for your time,
      Beth Pashley
      I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
    • Nando
      BETH: 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 4, 2013
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        BETH:
         
        1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water  volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
         
        2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
         
        3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
        The Motenergy  300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water  volume .
         
        If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
         
        4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
         
        5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
         
        6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
         
        7) inform
         
        8 )  inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
         
        Nando
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
        Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

         

        I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
        thanks for your time,
        Beth Pashley
        I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site

      • adirondackpash1
        Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 4, 2013
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          Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
          Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
          --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
          >
          > BETH:
          >
          > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
          >
          > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
          >
          > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
          > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
          >
          > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
          >
          > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
          >
          > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
          >
          > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
          >
          > 7) inform
          >
          > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
          >
          > Nando
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: adirondackpash1
          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
          > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
          >
          >
          >
          > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
          > thanks for your time,
          > Beth Pashley
          > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
          >
        • Nando
          The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator. I have the feeling that the power
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 4, 2013
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            The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
             
            I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
             
            100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
             
            To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
             
            Nando
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
            Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

             

            Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
            Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
            >
            > BETH:
            >
            > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
            >
            > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
            >
            > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
            > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
            >
            > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
            >
            > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
            >
            > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
            >
            > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
            >
            > 7) inform
            >
            > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
            >
            > Nando
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: adirondackpash1
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
            > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
            >
            >
            >
            > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
            > thanks for your time,
            > Beth Pashley
            > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
            >

          • Tim Nolte
            Hello I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in central oregon usa . I
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 4, 2013
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              Hello
               I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in  central oregon usa . I purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar" I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
               Tim
            • adirondackpash1
              Thanks for your input. What are you able to run on the electricity you produce? Seems to a be battery system may be the way to go after all. I will check out
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                Thanks for your input. What are you able to run on the electricity you produce? Seems to a be battery system may be the way to go after all. I will check out the stream engine and maybe have more questions after that.
                I really need to get up to the camp and check the head and volume but I think we would have as much as you do. ( altho I know thinking it and it being true may be 2 different things! I know we did all that figuring when we installed the ram pump but that was a few years back and we'd have to figure it again ( plus I can't remember what we came up with back then!) Unfortunately the site is remote enough and with the snow we get not accessible right now. Thanks again!

                --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nolte wrote:
                >
                > Hello
                > I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power
                > system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in central oregon usa . I
                > purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar"
                > I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses
                > 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts
                > continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                > I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you
                > don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
                > Tim
                >
              • The Pashleys
                Woods Lake/ Ram Pump site
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                  View album
                  This album has 2 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 5/6/2013.
                  View album    
                  I can’t figure out how to put an attachment on a post in the yahoo group but here is a picture of the ram pump 
                  which is situated across the road ( culvert under road) from the dam. We have enough head and volume at that spot to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down . We could always situate the hydro power generator farther down from that spot to increase the head, I would think.
                   
                  From: Tim Nolte
                  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 10:28 PM
                  Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                   
                   

                  Hello
                  I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in  central oregon usa . I purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar" I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                    I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
                  Tim

                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6081 - Release Date: 02/04/13

                • Nando
                  Beth: I have assisted many to install their small hydro electric systems and repeating my self : take accurate measurements from the dam to the edge of your
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                    Beth:
                     
                    I have assisted many to install their small hydro electric systems  and repeating my self : take accurate measurements from the dam to the edge of your site to determine the maximum possible head ( at the same time take the profile of the head to determine what is best to do,) also the water volume and the seasonal variations or the variations during your stay .
                     
                    There are many systems available and also you can make it cheaper if you have mechanical capabilities -- most probably  you may need batteries and with systems capable of producing at least  50 watts  = 1.2 KWH/ day that could give you enough energy to runs some lights, charge phone batteries and maybe a small refrigerator if a DC/AC inverter is added to the battery.
                     
                    For sure you can have enough power to feed LED's lights and possibly one electronic fluorescent lamp .
                     
                    And I insist : accurate multiple measurements to insure you have the right values to avoid errors in the installation, then inform and you may get good assistance to see what can be done with the least financial investment.
                     
                    Nando
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 07:00
                    Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                     

                    Thanks for your input. What are you able to run on the electricity you produce? Seems to a be battery system may be the way to go after all. I will check out the stream engine and maybe have more questions after that.
                    I really need to get up to the camp and check the head and volume but I think we would have as much as you do. ( altho I know thinking it and it being true may be 2 different things! I know we did all that figuring when we installed the ram pump but that was a few years back and we'd have to figure it again ( plus I can't remember what we came up with back then!) Unfortunately the site is remote enough and with the snow we get not accessible right now. Thanks again!

                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nolte wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello
                    > I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power
                    > system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in central oregon usa . I
                    > purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar"
                    > I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses
                    > 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts
                    > continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                    > I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you
                    > don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
                    > Tim
                    >

                  • k r
                    Buy Stream engine direct www.microhydropower.com To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com From: mbpash@roadrunner.com Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:00:50 +0000 Subject:
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                      Buy Stream engine direct www.microhydropower.com

                       

                      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                      From: mbpash@...
                      Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:00:50 +0000
                      Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                       
                      Thanks for your input. What are you able to run on the electricity you produce? Seems to a be battery system may be the way to go after all. I will check out the stream engine and maybe have more questions after that.
                      I really need to get up to the camp and check the head and volume but I think we would have as much as you do. ( altho I know thinking it and it being true may be 2 different things! I know we did all that figuring when we installed the ram pump but that was a few years back and we'd have to figure it again ( plus I can't remember what we came up with back then!) Unfortunately the site is remote enough and with the snow we get not accessible right now. Thanks again!

                      --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nolte wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello
                      > I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power
                      > system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in central oregon usa . I
                      > purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar"
                      > I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses
                      > 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts
                      > continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                      > I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you
                      > don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
                      > Tim
                      >


                    • Nando
                      Make sure about the head and the volume -- again measure several times and get the average -- Do not buy anything until the site has being certified to have a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                        Make sure about the head and the volume -- again measure several times and get the average -- Do not buy anything  until the site has being certified to have a power level within your aims, needs and financial limitations if any.
                         
                        Also make  sure to check the water for cleanness ( take a clean large container fill it  water then let it settle and carefully empty the water leaving the sand or debris to see what type of filter is needed to have to insure turbine long life .
                         
                        Again land profile is important when taking the head and do not  worry if the turbine is so what far from the load, wire is inexpensive if compared to the pipe and or the energy level produced.
                         
                        Nando
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 07:34
                        Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                         
                        View album
                        This album has 2 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 5/6/2013.
                        View album    
                        I can’t figure out how to put an attachment on a post in the yahoo group but here is a picture of the ram pump 
                        which is situated across the road ( culvert under road) from the dam. We have enough head and volume at that spot to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down . We could always situate the hydro power generator farther down from that spot to increase the head, I would think.
                         
                        From: Tim Nolte
                        Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 10:28 PM
                        Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                         
                         

                        Hello
                        I am not one of the experts on this site but I do have a Micro hydro power system that I set up in 2004 for a small cabin in  central oregon usa . I purchased a " Stream Engine" from a online company named "Backwoods Solar" I use 2 Trojan L16H batteries with a 12 amp charge control. The system uses 40 gallons a minute and has a 20' head and produces 4 amps 48 watts continuously This system has operated flawlessly for 8 years.
                          I have know idea if this helps your situation in the slightest, but you don't hear much about systems like this on this site.
                        Tim

                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6081 - Release Date: 02/04/13

                      • z
                        The nice thing about having a battery bank is that (as others have pointed out) you can cover the startup on the fridge and since the hydro runs through the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                          The nice thing about having a battery bank is that (as others have pointed out) you can cover the startup on the fridge and since the hydro runs through the night you can 'bank' a lot of energy when you are sleeping, so you can use more power when needed during the waking hours. The other nice thing about having a battery bank is that it's fairly easy to add a few solar panels to the system in case you are not getting enough power just from the hydro. I have hydro+ solar and just keep an eye out for good deals and add a new panel once in a while to augment my power needs. I've found some even at garage sales !

                          Downside is that good batteries are heavy and aren't cheap.


                          good luck

                          -zachary in Oregon


                          > And any thoughts on
                          >the battery bank system versus  battery-less direct AC system ..I
                          >would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries
                          >but....
                        • Tim Nolte
                          Hello My system uses 12V LED lighting. I use a Samlex EX600 true sine wave inverter that only produces 600 watts 120 v . Off of this inverter I am able to run
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                            Hello
                             My system uses 12V LED lighting. I use a Samlex EX600 true sine wave inverter that only produces 600 watts 120 v . Off of this inverter I am able to run my 30" low wattage flat screen tv. , my wifes sewing machine, and audio electronics. For my power tools I have a 2500 watt modified sine wave inverter that will run the miter saw and all of my other hand held power tools.
                             The cabin is heated by wood and the refrigeration, water heating and stove, oven runs off of propane.
                             Tim
                          • Doug Fortune
                            Nando mentioned using discharge hose (and I suppose, firehose is heavier duty) as a temporary penstock. What a good idea! Or, it could be permanent! It
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 9, 2013
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                              Nando mentioned using discharge hose (and I suppose, firehose is heavier
                              duty) as a temporary penstock. What a good idea!

                              Or, it could be permanent! It certainly is easy.

                              My first check of Kuriyama.com showed many hoses of 150 & 200 psi and I
                              presume there are many vendors beyond Kuriyama.

                              Firehose can probably handle higher pressures, and thus more expensive,
                              but perhaps damaged firehose can be obtained cheap or fee from local
                              firehalls, chop the leaky section out and install more couplers, except
                              for a slight efficiency loss, I think we can expore that option.

                              Several people have mentioned pumping water uphill (perhaps for drinking
                              water pressure), flexible hose can be used for that too!

                              As hose is more likely to burst, as a SEPARATE topic, an automated
                              control valve at the top should be considered compulsory. We use a
                              pressure solenoid that (deactivates) the pneumatic system holding the
                              valve open.

                              Doug
                            • Don Jackson
                              I believe Nando has also mentioned in the past that fire hose has high resistance and is made to leak a little the whole length (presumably to keep embers from
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 9, 2013
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                                I believe Nando has also mentioned in the past that fire hose has high resistance and is made to leak a little the whole length (presumably to keep embers from catching it on fire), so I don't know that this could be considered ideal for everyone.

                                ________________________________
                                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: pentam@...
                                > Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 11:08:27 -0700
                                > Subject: [microhydro] discharge hose / firehose for easy penstock
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Nando mentioned using discharge hose (and I suppose, firehose is heavier
                                > duty) as a temporary penstock. What a good idea!
                                >
                                > Or, it could be permanent! It certainly is easy.
                                >
                                > My first check of Kuriyama.com showed many hoses of 150 & 200 psi and I
                                > presume there are many vendors beyond Kuriyama.
                                >
                                > Firehose can probably handle higher pressures, and thus more expensive,
                                > but perhaps damaged firehose can be obtained cheap or fee from local
                                > firehalls, chop the leaky section out and install more couplers, except
                                > for a slight efficiency loss, I think we can expore that option.
                                >
                                > Several people have mentioned pumping water uphill (perhaps for drinking
                                > water pressure), flexible hose can be used for that too!
                                >
                                > As hose is more likely to burst, as a SEPARATE topic, an automated
                                > control valve at the top should be considered compulsory. We use a
                                > pressure solenoid that (deactivates) the pneumatic system holding the
                                > valve open.
                                >
                                > Doug
                                >
                                >
                              • Nando
                                Doug: Fire fighter hoses are not good for hydro because they are designed differently for one to become wet externally to protect the hose from possible fires
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 9, 2013
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                                  Doug:
                                   
                                  Fire fighter hoses are not good for hydro because they are designed differently for one to become wet externally to protect the hose from possible fires and high water friction losses.
                                   
                                  Kuriyama and other companies make hoses ( flat hoses) some up to 16 inches and the hose has a very smooth inside surface having this way a low water friction, some friends that like to go camping for several weeks do have them and install them to produce electrical power or to pump water to the site or both .
                                  You need to remember that the flat hose does elongate when filled up to about 8 % which needs to be considered.
                                   
                                  There is ( or was ? ) a site in Nepal with a 200 mm flat hose penstock for about  100 meters plus some PVC penstock to produce around 6 KW .
                                   
                                  A proposed a flat hose to Dan Fink for a site in Canada, I do not know if such system has been implemented or not.
                                   
                                  There are other installations and some the hose is under water  to have water during winter without freezing to produce electrical power.
                                   
                                  Nando
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 12:08
                                  Subject: [microhydro] discharge hose / firehose for easy penstock

                                   


                                  Nando mentioned using discharge hose (and I suppose, firehose is heavier
                                  duty) as a temporary penstock. What a good idea!

                                  Or, it could be permanent! It certainly is easy.

                                  My first check of Kuriyama.com showed many hoses of 150 & 200 psi and I
                                  presume there are many vendors beyond Kuriyama.

                                  Firehose can probably handle higher pressures, and thus more expensive,
                                  but perhaps damaged firehose can be obtained cheap or fee from local
                                  firehalls, chop the leaky section out and install more couplers, except
                                  for a slight efficiency loss, I think we can expore that option.

                                  Several people have mentioned pumping water uphill (perhaps for drinking
                                  water pressure), flexible hose can be used for that too!

                                  As hose is more likely to burst, as a SEPARATE topic, an automated
                                  control valve at the top should be considered compulsory. We use a
                                  pressure solenoid that (deactivates) the pneumatic system holding the
                                  valve open.

                                  Doug

                                • chrisrey15
                                  Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 10, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                    Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                    Thanks

                                     



                                    ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                     
                                    I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                     
                                    100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                     
                                    To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                     
                                    Nando
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                    Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                     

                                    Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                    Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > BETH:
                                    >
                                    > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                    >
                                    > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                    >
                                    > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                    > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                    >
                                    > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                    >
                                    > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                    >
                                    > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                    >
                                    > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                    >
                                    > 7) inform
                                    >
                                    > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                    >
                                    > Nando
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: adirondackpash1
                                    > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                    > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                    > thanks for your time,
                                    > Beth Pashley
                                    > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                    >

                                  • nando37
                                    Chisrey: The turbine that you may need depends on the power source , so please in detail describe what you have and what plans you have in your mind .
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 10, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Chisrey:

                                      The turbine that you may need depends on the power source , so please in detail describe what you have and what plans you have in your mind .
                                      Moteneergy have several generator types and, as well,���� an inverter to produce up to 2 KW with one of the generators he has BUT you need to have a controller (in a sense a ballast controller ) to clamp the output voltage of the generator to the maximum voltage that the inverter accepts to produce 120 volts @ 60 HZ .

                                      You have give an "ESTIMATION"���� -- PLEASE & pretty PLEASE -- Do not estimate measure carefully and calculate what power is available or present the parameters for the members to let you know how much power can be harvested from the site

                                      So give the head accurately measured , the water volume in winter and summer and the penstock length for the calculation to maximize the power harvested by defining the proper pipe diameter.

                                      36 volts is becoming a voltage that is not longer being used,���� 12, 24, 48, 72 Volts are now the common ones and most equipment go for the higher voltage and in your case 48 volts for an DC/DC inverter to produce 48 to 340 Volts DC for the 2 KW inverter if you plan to use it

                                      I see that Motenergy has a 240 Vac @ 50 HZ���� , here you have what the site says :

                                      http://www.motenergy.com/meinco240va5.html

                                      Product Description

                                      The ME1301 is an Inverter Control Module designed for use with the ME1112 or ME1211 PM Generators. The Inverter Control will accept 240 to 380 VAC, variable frequency input, and convert it to a 240 VAC, 50 Hz output, with less than 5% total harmonic distortion (True Sine Wave). The speed of the ME1112 generator can vary from 1400 to 2500 rpm 2kw (ME1211 is 800-1700 rpm 500 watt), and the output of the Control remains at 240 VAC, 50 Hz. Maximum output current is 8 amps. Over current and under voltage warning light outputs. Output rated at 2 kw continuous.

                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                      The use of this set up REQUIRES that there is a clamp controller for the generator to limit the output voltage to not greater than the 340 volts or so for the inverter survive long term���� -- this could happen when the inverter is not being loaded at all or too lightly loaded than the 2 KW capabilities.

                                      The inverter ( two types one for 120 volts @ 60 HZ and the second for 230 Volts @ 50 hz ) are the type used by the recent production of gas engine generators with electronic inverters to have accurate output voltage and frequency -- which I presume they are imported from over production in China by Motenergy.

                                      Make sure you get a generator that is BRUSHLESS���� to attain long life service and request that the site inform the type of ball bearing the generator use and the procedure to replace the bearings which may have a life of around 30 to 40,000 hours .

                                      Also You need to know your site well defined capabilities like the head ( meters of height ) and the water volume ( liters/second )���� to see what type of TURBINE���� is best for the place -- Turgo is one alternative that can be acquired with the proper PCD = Pressure Center Diameter for the head of the water source you may have.

                                      It seems that you are located in France

                                      Nando







                                      On 10/10/2013 05:01, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                      ����

                                      Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                      Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                      Thanks

                                      ����



                                      ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                      The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                      ����
                                      I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                      ����
                                      100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                      ����
                                      To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                      ����
                                      Nando
                                      ����
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                      Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                      ����

                                      Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                      Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                      --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > BETH:
                                      >
                                      > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                      >
                                      > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                      >
                                      > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                      > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                      >
                                      > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                      >
                                      > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                      >
                                      > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                      >
                                      > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                      >
                                      > 7) inform
                                      >
                                      > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                      >
                                      > Nando
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: adirondackpash1
                                      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                      > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                      > thanks for your time,
                                      > Beth Pashley
                                      > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                      >


                                    • chrisrey15
                                      Hi Nando, maybe I will try to be more accurate in the description of my project. Situation: Switzerland. Altitude: 1600 meters. Little small village with a
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment

                                        Hi Nando,


                                        maybe I will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.

                                        Situation: Switzerland.

                                        Altitude: 1600 meters.

                                        Little small village with a water source.

                                        As this is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...

                                        Height from the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.

                                        Lenght of the tube is 150 meters.

                                        Section of the main tube is 4cm.

                                        Section of the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.

                                        Outflow is in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.

                                        I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.


                                        Is this a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?


                                        Do you need more informations?


                                        Best regards,


                                        chris




                                        ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                        Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                        Thanks

                                         



                                        ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                         
                                        I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                         
                                        100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                         
                                        To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                         
                                        Nando
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                        Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                         

                                        Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                        Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                        --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > BETH:
                                        >
                                        > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                        >
                                        > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                        >
                                        > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                        > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                        >
                                        > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                        >
                                        > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                        >
                                        > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                        >
                                        > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                        >
                                        > 7) inform
                                        >
                                        > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                        >
                                        > Nando
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: adirondackpash1
                                        > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                        > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                        > thanks for your time,
                                        > Beth Pashley
                                        > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                        >

                                      • nando37
                                        Chrisrey: 100 meters & 3 liters/sec produce 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Chrisrey:

                                          100 meters & 3 liters/sec���� produce���� 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                          You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                          Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                          Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches���� = 40 mm���� or 100 mm pipe

                                          4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                          using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15���� meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                          Power available 85 *3 * 6 =���� 1530 watts

                                          You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                          To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                          Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                          The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions���� so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                          Nando



                                          On 10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                          ����

                                          Hi Nando,


                                          maybe I will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.

                                          Situation: Switzerland.

                                          Altitude: 1600 meters.

                                          Little small village with a water source.

                                          As this is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...

                                          Height from the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.

                                          Lenght of the tube is 150 meters.

                                          Section of the main tube is 4cm.

                                          Section of the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.

                                          Outflow is in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.

                                          I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.


                                          Is this a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?


                                          Do you need more informations?


                                          Best regards,


                                          chris




                                          ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                          Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                          Thanks

                                          ����



                                          ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                          ����
                                          I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                          ����
                                          100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                          ����
                                          To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                          ����
                                          Nando
                                          ����
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                          Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                          ����

                                          Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                          Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                          --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > BETH:
                                          >
                                          > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                          >
                                          > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                          >
                                          > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                          > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                          >
                                          > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                          >
                                          > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                          >
                                          > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                          >
                                          > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                          >
                                          > 7) inform
                                          >
                                          > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                          >
                                          > Nando
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: adirondackpash1
                                          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                          > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                          > thanks for your time,
                                          > Beth Pashley
                                          > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                          >


                                        • christian rey
                                          Hi Nando, Thanks for this explanation. One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Nando,

                                            Thanks for this explanation.

                                            One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                            One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                            What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                            Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                            I'm open to all proposals,

                                            Best regards,

                                            chris

                                            Du courant alternatif de qualité pour tous les appareils



                                            De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                            À : microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                            Envoyé le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                            Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                            Chrisrey:

                                            100 meters & 3 liters/sec  produce  1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                            You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                            Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                            Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches  = 40 mm  or 100 mm pipe

                                            4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                            using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15  meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                            Power available 85 *3 * 6 =  1530 watts

                                            You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                            To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                            Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                            The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions  so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                            Nando



                                            On 10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                             
                                            Hi Nando,

                                            maybe I will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                            Situation: Switzerland.
                                            Altitude: 1600 meters.
                                            Little small village with a water source.
                                            As this is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                            Height from the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                            Lenght of the tube is 150 meters.
                                            Section of the main tube is 4cm.
                                            Section of the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                            Outflow is in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                            I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                            Is this a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                            Do you need more informations?

                                            Best regards,

                                            chris



                                            ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                            Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                            Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                            Thanks
                                             


                                            ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                            The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                             
                                            I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                             
                                            100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                             
                                            To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                             
                                            Nando
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                            Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                             
                                            Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                            Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > BETH:
                                            >
                                            > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                            >
                                            > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                            >
                                            > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                            > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                            >
                                            > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                            >
                                            > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                            >
                                            > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                            >
                                            > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                            >
                                            > 7) inform
                                            >
                                            > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                            >
                                            > Nando
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: adirondackpash1
                                            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                            > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                            > thanks for your time,
                                            > Beth Pashley
                                            > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                            >




                                          • nando37
                                            Christian : Now that we know the problem , partial information , You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Christian :

                                              Now that���� we know the problem , partial information ,
                                              You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from���� a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                              This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water���� because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                              With the information supplied then I can determine what���� would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source���� off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                              This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                              300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and���� please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                              Please inform the requested information .

                                              Nando



                                              On 10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                              Hi Nando,

                                              Thanks for this explanation.

                                              One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                              One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                              What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                              Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                              I'm open to all proposals,

                                              Best regards,

                                              chris

                                              Du courant alternatif de qualit���� pour tous les appareils



                                              De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                              ��������: microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                              Envoy���� le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                              Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                              Chrisrey:

                                              100 meters & 3 liters/sec���� produce���� 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                              You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                              Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                              Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches���� = 40 mm���� or 100 mm pipe

                                              4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                              using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15���� meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                              Power available 85 *3 * 6 =���� 1530 watts

                                              You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                              To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                              Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                              The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions���� so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                              Nando



                                              On 10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                              ����
                                              Hi Nando,

                                              maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                              Situation:Switzerland.
                                              Altitude:1600 meters.
                                              Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                              Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                              Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                              Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                              Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                              Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                              Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                              I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                              Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                              Doyou need more informations?

                                              Bestregards,

                                              chris



                                              ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                              Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                              Thanks
                                              ����


                                              ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                              ����
                                              I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                              ����
                                              100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                              ����
                                              To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                              ����
                                              Nando
                                              ����
                                              -----Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                              Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                              ����
                                              Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                              Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                              --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > BETH:
                                              >
                                              > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                              >
                                              > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                              >
                                              > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                              > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                              >
                                              > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                              >
                                              > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                              >
                                              > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                              >
                                              > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                              >
                                              > 7) inform
                                              >
                                              > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                              >
                                              > Nando
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: adirondackpash1
                                              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                              > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                              > thanks for your time,
                                              > Beth Pashley
                                              > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                              >





                                            • christian rey
                                              Hi Nando, Thank you very much for your answer. To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Nando,

                                                Thank you very much for your answer.

                                                To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with the 40mm pipe 60 meters below the tank for 2 chalets.
                                                I am the third user 40 meters down. And the other users, maybe 10 are connected below me. And from this point, so below me, there are many smaller pipes going to the different chalets.

                                                Another point, there is a fountain just under my chalet, with a very low waterflow, just to avoid freezing in the winter, temp could go under 15°C. And there is a second fountain at the lowest place of the pipe network.

                                                I've find these solutions, everything I need except the turbine, right? :http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBigPicture.htm

                                                Last point, I've seen that in the description of the motenergy generator, it's written that it generates AC current, is this an error? Or I missed something...

                                                Best regards,

                                                chris



                                                De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                À : christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Envoyé le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 16h04
                                                Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                Christian :

                                                Now that  we know the problem , partial information ,
                                                You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from  a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                                This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water  because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                                With the information supplied then I can determine what  would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source  off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                                This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                                300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and  please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                                Please inform the requested information .

                                                Nando



                                                On 10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                                Hi Nando,

                                                Thanks for this explanation.

                                                One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                                One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                                What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                                Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                                I'm open to all proposals,

                                                Best regards,

                                                chris

                                                Du courant alternatif de qualité pour tous les appareils



                                                De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                À : microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                                Envoyé le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                                Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                Chrisrey:

                                                100 meters & 3 liters/sec  produce  1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                                You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                                Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                                Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches  = 40 mm  or 100 mm pipe

                                                4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                                using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15  meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                                Power available 85 *3 * 6 =  1530 watts

                                                You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                                To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                                Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                                The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions  so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                                Nando



                                                On 10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                                 
                                                Hi Nando,

                                                maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                                Situation:Switzerland.
                                                Altitude:1600 meters.
                                                Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                                Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                                Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                                Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                                Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                                Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                                Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                                I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                                Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                                Doyou need more informations?

                                                Bestregards,

                                                chris



                                                ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                Hello, with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                                Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                                Thanks
                                                 


                                                ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                                 
                                                I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                                 
                                                100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                                 
                                                To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                                 
                                                Nando
                                                 
                                                -----Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                                Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                 
                                                Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                                Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                                --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                                >
                                                > BETH:
                                                >
                                                > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                                >
                                                > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                                >
                                                > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                                > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                                >
                                                > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                                >
                                                > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                                >
                                                > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                                >
                                                > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                                >
                                                > 7) inform
                                                >
                                                > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                                >
                                                > Nando
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: adirondackpash1
                                                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                                > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                                > thanks for your time,
                                                > Beth Pashley
                                                > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                                >







                                              • nando37
                                                Christian: We have a problem because you have changed the whole picture You do not have 100 meter head, since you are the third user form two chalets that open
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Christian:

                                                  We have a problem because you have changed the whole picture You do not have 100 meter head, since you are the third user form two chalets that open /close valves that is a problem���� , then those under you all of them connected via a single pipe of 40 mm .

                                                  What is the water flow of the fountain in liter/sec���� -- this could be closed and replaced by the turbine, partially
                                                  You need to measure such fountain CAREFULLY & ACCURATELY .

                                                  You need to ask the two chalets above you how much water ( liter/sec) each one draws when they open the valve and for how long -- I need to see the change in pressure and how to compensate for such changes

                                                  Wait for the equipment you need first you need to know what your site is capable of giving you energy wise .

                                                  You may have to get a pressure gauge to see how the water pressure behaves if you can not give me an accurate use and flow of the system.


                                                  The turbine that you need may have to have a behavior of variable output voltage that is varied by the pressure changes in the 40 mm pipe

                                                  Nando


                                                  On 10/16/2013 09:31, christian rey wrote:
                                                  Hi Nando,

                                                  Thank you very much for your answer.

                                                  To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with the 40mm pipe 60 meters below the tank for 2 chalets.
                                                  I am the third user 40 meters down. And the other users, maybe 10 are connected below me. And from this point, so below me, there are many smaller pipes going to the different chalets.

                                                  Another point, there is a fountain just under my chalet, with a very low waterflow, just to avoid freezing in the winter, temp could go under 15����C. And there is a second fountain at the lowest place of the pipe network.

                                                  I've find these solutions, everything I need except the turbine, right? :http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBigPicture.htm

                                                  Last point, I've seen that in the description of the motenergy generator, it's written that it generates AC current, is this an error? Or I missed something...

                                                  Best regards,

                                                  chris



                                                  De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                  ��������: christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Envoy���� le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 16h04
                                                  Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                  Christian :

                                                  Now that���� we know the problem , partial information ,
                                                  You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from���� a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                                  This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water���� because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                                  With the information supplied then I can determine what���� would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source���� off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                                  This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                                  300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and���� please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                                  Please inform the requested information .

                                                  Nando



                                                  On 10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                                  Hi Nando,

                                                  Thanks for this explanation.

                                                  One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                                  One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                                  What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                                  Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                                  I'm open to all proposals,

                                                  Best regards,

                                                  chris

                                                  Du courant alternatif de qualit���� pour tous
les appareils



                                                  De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                  ��������: microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                                  Envoy���� le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                                  Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                  Chrisrey:

                                                  100 meters & 3 liters/sec���� produce���� 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                                  You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                                  Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                                  Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches���� = 40 mm���� or 100 mm pipe

                                                  4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                                  using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15���� meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                                  Power available 85 *3 * 6 =���� 1530 watts

                                                  You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                                  To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                                  Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                                  The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions���� so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                                  Nando



                                                  On10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                                  ����
                                                  Hi Nando,

                                                  maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                                  Situation:Switzerland.
                                                  Altitude:1600 meters.
                                                  Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                                  Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                                  Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                                  Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                                  Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                                  Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                                  Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                                  I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                                  Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                                  Doyou need more informations?

                                                  Bestregards,

                                                  chris



                                                  ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  Hello,with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                                  Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                                  Thanks
                                                  ����


                                                  ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                                  ����
                                                  I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                                  ����
                                                  100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                                  ����
                                                  To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                                  ����
                                                  Nando
                                                  ����
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                                  Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                  ����
                                                  Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                                  Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                                  --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > BETH:
                                                  >
                                                  > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                                  >
                                                  > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                                  >
                                                  > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                                  > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                                  >
                                                  > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                                  >
                                                  > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                                  >
                                                  > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                                  >
                                                  > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                                  >
                                                  > 7) inform
                                                  >
                                                  > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                                  >
                                                  > Nando
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: adirondackpash1
                                                  > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                                  > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will

                                                  (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                                • christian rey
                                                  So you understand why I choose to have a smaller 200 or 300W turbine instead of a 1 500W one. ________________________________ De : nando37
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    So you understand why I choose to have a smaller 200 or 300W turbine instead of a 1'500W one.



                                                    De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                    À : christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Envoyé le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 17h23
                                                    Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                    Christian:

                                                    We have a problem because you have changed the whole picture You do not have 100 meter head, since you are the third user form two chalets that open /close valves that is a problem  , then those under you all of them connected via a single pipe of 40 mm .

                                                    What is the water flow of the fountain in liter/sec  -- this could be closed and replaced by the turbine, partially
                                                    You need to measure such fountain CAREFULLY & ACCURATELY .

                                                    You need to ask the two chalets above you how much water ( liter/sec) each one draws when they open the valve and for how long -- I need to see the change in pressure and how to compensate for such changes

                                                    Wait for the equipment you need first you need to know what your site is capable of giving you energy wise .

                                                    You may have to get a pressure gauge to see how the water pressure behaves if you can not give me an accurate use and flow of the system.


                                                    The turbine that you need may have to have a behavior of variable output voltage that is varied by the pressure changes in the 40 mm pipe

                                                    Nando


                                                    On 10/16/2013 09:31, christian rey wrote:
                                                    Hi Nando,

                                                    Thank you very much for your answer.

                                                    To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with the 40mm pipe 60 meters below the tank for 2 chalets.
                                                    I am the third user 40 meters down. And the other users, maybe 10 are connected below me. And from this point, so below me, there are many smaller pipes going to the different chalets.

                                                    Another point, there is a fountain just under my chalet, with a very low waterflow, just to avoid freezing in the winter, temp could go under 15°C. And there is a second fountain at the lowest place of the pipe network.

                                                    I've find these solutions, everything I need except the turbine, right? :http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBigPicture.htm

                                                    Last point, I've seen that in the description of the motenergy generator, it's written that it generates AC current, is this an error? Or I missed something...

                                                    Best regards,

                                                    chris



                                                    De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                    À : christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Envoyé le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 16h04
                                                    Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                    Christian :

                                                    Now that  we know the problem , partial information ,
                                                    You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from  a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                                    This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water  because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                                    With the information supplied then I can determine what  would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source  off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                                    This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                                    300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and  please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                                    Please inform the requested information .

                                                    Nando



                                                    On 10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                                    Hi Nando,

                                                    Thanks for this explanation.

                                                    One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                                    One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                                    What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                                    Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                                    I'm open to all proposals,

                                                    Best regards,

                                                    chris

                                                    Du courant alternatif de qualité pour tous                         les appareils



                                                    De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                    À : microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                                    Envoyé le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                                    Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                    Chrisrey:

                                                    100 meters & 3 liters/sec  produce  1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                                    You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                                    Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                                    Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches  = 40 mm  or 100 mm pipe

                                                    4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                                    using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15  meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                                    Power available 85 *3 * 6 =  1530 watts

                                                    You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                                    To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                                    Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                                    The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions  so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                                    Nando



                                                    On10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                                     
                                                    Hi Nando,

                                                    maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                                    Situation:Switzerland.
                                                    Altitude:1600 meters.
                                                    Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                                    Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                                    Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                                    Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                                    Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                                    Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                                    Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                                    I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                                    Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                                    Doyou need more informations?

                                                    Bestregards,

                                                    chris



                                                    ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                    Hello,with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                                    Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                                    Thanks
                                                     


                                                    ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                    The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                                     
                                                    I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from  100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                                     
                                                    100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                                     
                                                    To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                                     
                                                    Nando
                                                     
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                                    Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                     
                                                    Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                                    Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > BETH:
                                                    >
                                                    > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                                    >
                                                    > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                                    >
                                                    > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                                    > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on the head and the water volume .
                                                    >
                                                    > If you can produce the 300 watts, it is probably best to charge a good size battery
                                                    >
                                                    > 4) It is best to get the data and inform the group to get the right set up installed, avoid a Pelton , A Turgo may be better
                                                    >
                                                    > 5) Water is quite deceiving so make sure and recheck the measurements
                                                    >
                                                    > 6) If the pipe ( penstock) is going to be removed at the end of the stay then think in getting a flat hose ( se Kuriyama.com )
                                                    >
                                                    > 7) inform
                                                    >
                                                    > 8 ) inform to avoid having problems, I am right now assisting a fellow in changing his turbine because the head measurement was done wrong .
                                                    >
                                                    > Nando
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: adirondackpash1
                                                    > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 06:29
                                                    > Subject: [microhydro] Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I am very interested in micro hydro power. We have a remote " off grid" camp in the Adirondacks in Upstate NY ( a few hours from the Canadian border) We currently use a ram pump to pump water up hill to gravity feed back down to the camp for water and we have propane lights ( no electricity at all) We are only at the camp for a few days up to 2 week at a time but electricity to run a small ( 4-5 cu ft.) refrigerator and a radio , and charge a laptop computer would be nice. We have a 36 Acre Lake and there is a small dam at the outlet. ( below the dam is where we have the ram pump set up) . I think we have plenty of head and gpm flow as it runs the ram pump ( Can't access the property right now to get the actual figures..but will in the spring..trying to do my homework now! I'm pretty sure we would have at least 100gpm and the head could be lengthened if needed?) ) Trying to decide if we should go with a small battery bank and a pelton wheel set-up ..or a Pico Micro Hydro Power Complete 120 VAC 60 Hz 300 Watt PMA Generator Turgo Wheel sold by Motenergy which would produce AC current directly. Will 300W continuous run the small fridge, radio and occasionally charging a laptop? I know this is rather vague but I don't expect a for certain answer since I have not provided you with specifics as to rate of water flow and head so some suggestions would be great!
                                                    > thanks for your time,
                                                    > Beth Pashley
                                                    > I will try and see if I can post a picture of the site
                                                    >

                                                  • nando37
                                                    Christian : I do understand that you need to reduce the water flow to a minimum. Also you have if possible the site where there is a fountain for continuous
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 19, 2013
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Christian :

                                                      I do understand that you need to reduce the water flow to a minimum.

                                                      Also you have if possible the site where there is a fountain for continuous flow to avoid water freezing due to the lack of water moment .

                                                      You can measure that fountain flow that for the size of the pipe ( 40 mm) seems to be around 0.5 l/s���� -- with the second fountain far down at the end of the pipe.

                                                      Since the pipe is feeding some chalets before it reaches you, the design of the system requires additional conditions���� to avoid problems .

                                                      Since the pipe at some time may have many chalets drawing water the pipe feeding the turbine will require to have an air chamber of at least 20 to 30 liters of volume -- this chamber should be placed vertical and well sealed to avoid water filling of it long time and for that reason you may need to have the means to even pump air into it using a valve like the valves used by the automobile tires -- and the best way is to have a means to see that the air tank is not getting filled with water

                                                      This air chamber is to protect the turbine in case of water hammer effects that may burst the pipe or to put a too excessive water pressure to the Jet and maybe damaging the turbine .

                                                      Also the neck of the air chamber has to be well insulated because it may have water still for long time and will slowly start to freeze so make the neck as short as possible for the water moving down does keep the water there in a sense in a non-frozen conditions.

                                                      Now the electrical part -- this turbine will have a constant up/down RPM depending on the water use by all the chalets so the generator needs to be set to produce a variable AC voltage (in a sense ) therefore the generator should be one called PMA = Permanent Magnet Alternator���� that feeds a transformer or produces a voltage that should be at least 3 times the battery voltage ( 4 times will be better )���� -- so after rectification you should have a charge controller with MPPT capabilities to properly charge the battery and with smart charging profile for good battery life .

                                                      Inverter -- there are MSW inverters = Modified Sine Wave inverter that I do not suggest because some equipment does not like the way form

                                                      My suggestion is to spend the money on a Pure Sine Wave Inverter to cover your needs and if���� you are feeding a refrigerator you need to know that the power needed is 6 times the running power to allow the proper starting of the compressor and in addition the power that is being use by lightning or other elements in the chalet that is being used at the moment that the refrigerator starts to run.

                                                      MPPT= Maximum Point Power Tracking���� -- This Smart charger with MPPT should be one operating at a high PWM frequency and NOT the ones used by the solar panels that work at a PWM of around 300 - 400 Hz.
                                                      The easier turbine to build would be a Turgo Since you are in Europe there is a fellow there that sells turgo spoons or use one in USA = www.h-hydro.com the owner is Joe Hartvigsen and he can assist you in the selection of the Turgo if I am not around,���� I may be out of commission for some weeks because I may have surgery soon.
                                                      Turgo should be STAINLESS Steel due to the head and the water hammer effects that may occur often !!

                                                      I guess that around 60 % of the time the water may not be used and the only water drawn would be the water that the two fountains need to keep the water from freezing in the pipe.

                                                      The ideal place for the turbine is the first fountain place if the water drawn there is at least 0.3 l/s and you may obtain a lot of more power because the head is greater --

                                                      Is the first fountain on your land and can you replace the fountain for the turbine and how far is the fountain to your chalet ?.

                                                      Let me know

                                                      Nando


                                                      On 10/16/2013 10:43, christian rey wrote:
                                                      So you understand why I choose to have a smaller 200 or 300W turbine instead of a 1'500W one.



                                                      De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                      ��������: christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Envoy���� le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 17h23
                                                      Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                      Christian:

                                                      We have a problem because you have changed the whole picture You do not have 100 meter head, since you are the third user form two chalets that open /close valves that is a problem���� , then those under you all of them connected via a single pipe of 40 mm .

                                                      What is the water flow of the fountain in liter/sec���� -- this could be closed and replaced by the turbine, partially
                                                      You need to measure such fountain CAREFULLY & ACCURATELY .

                                                      You need to ask the two chalets above you how much water ( liter/sec) each one draws when they open the valve and for how long -- I need to see the change in pressure and how to compensate for such changes

                                                      Wait for the equipment you need first you need to know what your site is capable of giving you energy wise .

                                                      You may have to get a pressure gauge to see how the water pressure behaves if you can not give me an accurate use and flow of the system.


                                                      The turbine that you need may have to have a behavior of variable output voltage that is varied by the pressure changes in the 40 mm pipe

                                                      Nando


                                                      On 10/16/2013 09:31, christian rey wrote:
                                                      Hi Nando,

                                                      Thank you very much for your answer.

                                                      To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with the 40mm pipe 60 meters below the tank for 2 chalets.
                                                      I am the third user 40 meters down. And the other users, maybe 10 are connected below me. And from this point, so below me, there are many smaller pipes going to the different chalets.

                                                      Another point, there is a fountain just under my chalet, with a very low waterflow, just to avoid freezing in the winter, temp could go under 15����C. And there is a second fountain at the lowest place of the pipe network.

                                                      I've find these solutions, everything I need except the turbine, right? :http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBigPicture.htm

                                                      Last point, I've seen that in the description of the motenergy generator, it's written that it generates AC current, is this an error? Or I missed something...

                                                      Best regards,

                                                      chris



                                                      De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                      ��������: christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Envoy���� le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 16h04
                                                      Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                      Christian :

                                                      Now that���� we know the problem , partial information ,
                                                      You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from���� a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                                      This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water���� because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                                      With the information supplied then I can determine what���� would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source���� off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                                      This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                                      300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and���� please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                                      Please inform the requested information .

                                                      Nando



                                                      On10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                                      Hi Nando,

                                                      Thanks for this explanation.

                                                      One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                                      One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                                      What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                                      Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                                      I'm open to all proposals,

                                                      Best regards,

                                                      chris

                                                      Du courant alternatif de
qualit���� pour tous les appareils



                                                      De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                      ��������: microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                                      Envoy����le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                                      Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                      Chrisrey:

                                                      100 meters & 3 liters/sec���� produce���� 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                                      You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                                      Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                                      Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches���� = 40 mm���� or 100 mm pipe

                                                      4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                                      using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15���� meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                                      Power available 85 *3 * 6 =���� 1530 watts

                                                      You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                                      To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                                      Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                                      The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions���� so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                                      Nando



                                                      On10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                                      ����
                                                      Hi Nando,

                                                      maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                                      Situation:Switzerland.
                                                      Altitude:1600 meters.
                                                      Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                                      Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                                      Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                                      Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                                      Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                                      Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                                      Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                                      I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                                      Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                                      Doyou need more informations?

                                                      Bestregards,

                                                      chris



                                                      ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                      Hello,with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                                      Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                                      Thanks
                                                      ����


                                                      ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                      The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                                      ����
                                                      I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                                      ����
                                                      100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                                      ����
                                                      To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                                      ����
                                                      Nando
                                                      ����
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                    • christian rey
                                                      Hi Nando, Thanks for this very valuable information. The fountain is unfortunately not my property I will procees tosome pressure measurements this winter and
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Oct 21, 2013
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Hi Nando,

                                                        Thanks for this very valuable information.

                                                        The fountain is unfortunately not my property

                                                        I will procees tosome pressure measurements this winter and will post the results.

                                                        All the best,

                                                        chris



                                                        De : nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                        À : microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Envoyé le : Samedi 19 octobre 2013 18h44
                                                        Objet : Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                         
                                                        Christian :

                                                        I do understand that you need to reduce the water flow to a minimum.

                                                        Also you have if possible the site where there is a fountain for continuous flow to avoid water freezing due to the lack of water moment .

                                                        You can measure that fountain flow that for the size of the pipe ( 40 mm) seems to be around 0.5 l/s���� -- with the second fountain far down at the end of the pipe.

                                                        Since the pipe is feeding some chalets before it reaches you, the design of the system requires additional conditions���� to avoid problems .

                                                        Since the pipe at some time may have many chalets drawing water the pipe feeding the turbine will require to have an air chamber of at least 20 to 30 liters of volume -- this chamber should be placed vertical and well sealed to avoid water filling of it long time and for that reason you may need to have the means to even pump air into it using a valve like the valves used by the automobile tires -- and the best way is to have a means to see that the air tank is not getting filled with water

                                                        This air chamber is to protect the turbine in case of water hammer effects that may burst the pipe or to put a too excessive water pressure to the Jet and maybe damaging the turbine .

                                                        Also the neck of the air chamber has to be well insulated because it may have water still for long time and will slowly start to freeze so make the neck as short as possible for the water moving down does keep the water there in a sense in a non-frozen conditions.

                                                        Now the electrical part -- this turbine will have a constant up/down RPM depending on the water use by all the chalets so the generator needs to be set to produce a variable AC voltage (in a sense ) therefore the generator should be one called PMA = Permanent Magnet Alternator���� that feeds a transformer or produces a voltage that should be at least 3 times the battery voltage ( 4 times will be better )���� -- so after rectification you should have a charge controller with MPPT capabilities to properly charge the battery and with smart charging profile for good battery life .

                                                        Inverter -- there are MSW inverters = Modified Sine Wave inverter that I do not suggest because some equipment does not like the way form

                                                        My suggestion is to spend the money on a Pure Sine Wave Inverter to cover your needs and if���� you are feeding a refrigerator you need to know that the power needed is 6 times the running power to allow the proper starting of the compressor and in addition the power that is being use by lightning or other elements in the chalet that is being used at the moment that the refrigerator starts to run.

                                                        MPPT= Maximum Point Power Tracking���� -- This Smart charger with MPPT should be one operating at a high PWM frequency and NOT the ones used by the solar panels that work at a PWM of around 300 - 400 Hz.
                                                        The easier turbine to build would be a Turgo Since you are in Europe there is a fellow there that sells turgo spoons or use one in USA = www.h-hydro.com the owner is Joe Hartvigsen and he can assist you in the selection of the Turgo if I am not around,���� I may be out of commission for some weeks because I may have surgery soon.
                                                        Turgo should be STAINLESS Steel due to the head and the water hammer effects that may occur often !!

                                                        I guess that around 60 % of the time the water may not be used and the only water drawn would be the water that the two fountains need to keep the water from freezing in the pipe.

                                                        The ideal place for the turbine is the first fountain place if the water drawn there is at least 0.3 l/s and you may obtain a lot of more power because the head is greater --

                                                        Is the first fountain on your land and can you replace the fountain for the turbine and how far is the fountain to your chalet ?.

                                                        Let me know

                                                        Nando


                                                        On 10/16/2013 10:43, christian rey wrote:
                                                        So you understand why I choose to have a smaller 200 or 300W turbine instead of a 1'500W one.



                                                        De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                        ��������: christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Envoy���� le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 17h23
                                                        Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                        Christian:

                                                        We have a problem because you have changed the whole picture You do not have 100 meter head, since you are the third user form two chalets that open /close valves that is a problem���� , then those under you all of them connected via a single pipe of 40 mm .

                                                        What is the water flow of the fountain in liter/sec���� -- this could be closed and replaced by the turbine, partially
                                                        You need to measure such fountain CAREFULLY & ACCURATELY .

                                                        You need to ask the two chalets above you how much water ( liter/sec) each one draws when they open the valve and for how long -- I need to see the change in pressure and how to compensate for such changes

                                                        Wait for the equipment you need first you need to know what your site is capable of giving you energy wise .

                                                        You may have to get a pressure gauge to see how the water pressure behaves if you can not give me an accurate use and flow of the system.


                                                        The turbine that you need may have to have a behavior of variable output voltage that is varied by the pressure changes in the 40 mm pipe

                                                        Nando


                                                        On 10/16/2013 09:31, christian rey wrote:
                                                        Hi Nando,

                                                        Thank you very much for your answer.

                                                        To be simple, there is a tank at the top of the pipe, just under the source. There is a first connection with the 40mm pipe 60 meters below the tank for 2 chalets.
                                                        I am the third user 40 meters down. And the other users, maybe 10 are connected below me. And from this point, so below me, there are many smaller pipes going to the different chalets.

                                                        Another point, there is a fountain just under my chalet, with a very low waterflow, just to avoid freezing in the winter, temp could go under 15����C. And there is a second fountain at the lowest place of the pipe network.

                                                        I've find these solutions, everything I need except the turbine, right? :http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBigPicture.htm

                                                        Last point, I've seen that in the description of the motenergy generator, it's written that it generates AC current, is this an error? Or I missed something...

                                                        Best regards,

                                                        chris



                                                        De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                        ��������: christian rey <chrisrey15@...>; "microhydro@yahoogroups.com" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Envoy���� le : Mercredi 16 octobre 2013 16h04
                                                        Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                        Christian :

                                                        Now that���� we know the problem , partial information ,
                                                        You need to inform if the 40 mm water pipe if for you alone or this pipe has connections to other users , also if the 40 mm pipe is alone user does it come from���� a larger tank from where the multiple users have pipes going to their places or not.

                                                        This is a very important item to know to make sure that the pressure of your pipe does not have up/downs in variation due to the use of the water���� because it may present problems to your turbine.

                                                        With the information supplied then I can determine what���� would be the best procedure for you in the use of the water -- lower as possible and to shut the water source���� off when the battery bank is full and to be able to use more water later in the night when most people go to bed.

                                                        This a case of water management plus possible higher power when people is not using the water and the battery bank then can be sized to your needs .

                                                        300 watts represent 7.2 KWH of energy and from now I suggest to have a 48 volts battery bank because it is easier long term , of course since the place is for you to use during the holidays the bank could be a 12 volts and to have a DC/AC inverter to your needs that you need to DETAIL to be able to suggest the proper power level and���� please do not get a MSW inverter , get a Pure Sine Wave Inverter now that the prices of them are coming down.

                                                        Please inform the requested information .

                                                        Nando



                                                        On10/16/2013 02:02, christian rey wrote:
                                                        Hi Nando,

                                                        Thanks for this explanation.

                                                        One thing I missed to say is that the water source is available for a small village, maybe 15 other users need water in the full season. So I cannot take all the water. But of course I can go to 300 watts, but do not want to exceed this limit because they all need water.

                                                        One information more, this is a holiday chalet, we generaly use it for the week-end and once a year, we can spend 10 days there. As this is in Winter, we do not have a lot of sun, so I want to use the water.

                                                        What will I do with this energy? I want to stock it in batteries and when the batteries are charged, convert the DC to AC in 220V (because we are in Europe and use 220-230V AC 50hz.

                                                        Now I have to define the size of the system and his parts: turbine, generator, controler (regulator), battery charger BMS, converter.

                                                        I'm open to all proposals,

                                                        Best regards,

                                                        chris

                                                        Du courant alternatif de                                       qualit���� pour tous les appareils



                                                        De����: nando37 <nando37@...>
                                                        ��������: microhydro@yahoogroups.com; chrisrey15@...
                                                        Envoy����le : Mardi 15 octobre 2013 23h05
                                                        Objet����: Re: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                        Chrisrey:

                                                        100 meters & 3 liters/sec���� produce���� 1800 watts without any pressure reducing scheme and that is quite optimum for your site specially in winter with snow and ice.

                                                        You do not need to put a reducer to reduce the power , the only thing you need is to have a smaller jet to limit the amount of water

                                                        Please detail why the 200 watts limitations to see how to use the water properly

                                                        Is the pipe 4 cm or is it a 4 inches���� = 40 mm���� or 100 mm pipe

                                                        4 cm = 1.5 inches

                                                        using 3 l/s the friction losses reach 15���� meters or so so instead of 100 meter head you will have 85

                                                        Power available 85 *3 * 6 =���� 1530 watts

                                                        You have not explained why your approach -- so in detail explain it !!

                                                        To produce 200 watts your head stays close to 97 meters and need around 0.3 l/s to produce such low power

                                                        Now what type of power do you need DC or AC and what is it FOR , Charge batteries or what ?.

                                                        The decision of what to use and how to implement it depends on the overall system usage to minimize financial expenditures and material cost and possible local restrictions���� so inform to have the proper information for you to get the proper analysis.

                                                        Nando



                                                        On10/15/2013 10:37, chrisrey15@... wrote:
                                                        ����
                                                        Hi Nando,

                                                        maybeI will try to be more accurate in the description of my project.
                                                        Situation:Switzerland.
                                                        Altitude:1600 meters.
                                                        Littlesmall village with a water source.
                                                        Asthis is a source, we are NOT limited with the quantity of water we use, excepted from the outflow...
                                                        Heightfrom the source to the chalet: around 100 meters.
                                                        Lenghtof the tube is 150 meters.
                                                        Sectionof the main tube is 4cm.
                                                        Sectionof the connection tube (from main tube to the chalet) 3 meters, with 2.5 cm section.
                                                        Outflowis in the main tube: (summer time) 3 liters/second. Winter, maybe 1.5 min.
                                                        I know we can calculate the more adapted turbine for my situation. But my logic is maybe not correct, but I start from the principle that I need some power. In this case 200 W. I can have more power with 100 meters Height and 3 liters/second, I am sure you will calculate this for me ;o) but for me, I can reduce the pressure, If needed, with a "reducer" to obtain the targeted pressure. I know that I have 10 bars with 100 meters, no? With a "reducer" and a "valve" I can reduce the pressure, maybe to 5 bars and the Outflow to the values I need.

                                                        Isthis a possible way to proceed? Am I wrong in my approach?

                                                        Doyou need more informations?

                                                        Bestregards,

                                                        chris



                                                        ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                        Hello,with this motenergy turbine, what will be the best solution to charge batteries? I was thinking about 15 LiFePo4 cells 3.2V100Ah using the motenergy ME1211 generator. Sorry totally newbie, the site is off-grid, need 220V for TV, light, fridge... what could be the best configuration? Charger, inverter. I've found a storage solution there: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/energystorage and want to know if that kind of solution is compatible with such a small turbine.
                                                        Power estimation with this turbine is 200W. 24h/24.

                                                        Thanks
                                                        ����


                                                        ---In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, <microhydro@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                        The solution for a battery-LESS system is one that the hydro can produce power above 1 KW to be able to start a refrigerator.
                                                        ����
                                                        I have the feeling that the power you may have is going to be low and from���� 100 to 500 watts it is best to have a battery to be able to have a DC/AC inverter to provide the higher power to supply the needs if properly managed with care.
                                                        ����
                                                        100 GPM = 6.3 liter/sec which is a WILD estimate of yours -- water is extremely deceiving and maybe wrong .
                                                        ����
                                                        To have 300 watts you will need about 8 meters = 27 feet of head with the 6.3 l/s if available -- then a battery and NOT a car autombile.
                                                        ����
                                                        Nando
                                                        ����
                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 15:44
                                                        Subject: [microhydro] Re: Micro Hydropower newbie looking for suggestions.

                                                        ����
                                                        Thanks you for your response. I will not buy or invest in anything until I can get the actual measurements needed ( head and volume) We would probably leave the pipe in place for the summer/fall season but take it up before winter. ( or maybe leave it in place and just unhook the water generator ) We leave the pipe for the ram pump in place year round but take the ram pump out. Any other recommendation on things I can be researching until I get the correct actual head and volume figures would be greatly appreciated. And any thoughts on the battery bank system versus battery-less direct AC system ..I would rather go that route and not have to deal with batteries but....
                                                        Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.
                                                        --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > BETH:
                                                        >
                                                        > 1) Do not think, Make 100 % sure to measure the water volume flowing and the dam plus any additional head you can get, REMEMBER in a hydro system the head is first , water volume is second
                                                        >
                                                        > 2) measure the head several times going up and going down to make sure you have the right head and do not have the mistake of using the wrong turbine.
                                                        >
                                                        > 3) The Motenergy 300 watts is for just lights and some battery charge, it does not have the capability of running a small refrigerator since it takes between 5 to 7 times the running power to start the compressor.
                                                        > The Motenergy 300 watts Turgo Turbine has a PMA alternator and can produce 115 Vac or less depending on

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