Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

small need of power

Expand Messages
  • Luk Vanhauwaert
    Hello group, I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area. 60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 1, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello group,
       
      I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
      60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
      The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
      Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
      I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
      Thank you for any advise. 
       
      Luk
       
       
       
      From: Jack
      Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
       
       

      I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  

      Cheers to those in the know.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
      To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

       
      I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
      Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
      Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
      Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
      Regards to all the group.
      Angel

      Enviado desde mi iPhone

      El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

       
      Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

      Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

      The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
      Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

      From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
      Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
      Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
       
       
      Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

      Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
      in hydro technology.

      Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
      question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
      defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
      principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
      have.

      Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
      information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
      many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
      problem solved.

      Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
      something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
      hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

      Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
      that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
      300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
      all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
      guessing .

      For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
      the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
      watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
      season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
      diameter.

      Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
      chargers suggested by other groups.

      At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
      along penstock and the site .

      This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
      may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
      opposite.

      My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
      problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
      requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
      response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

      Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
      presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
      knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
      principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
      not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
      information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

      SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
      think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
      these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
      or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

      Nando

    • Nando
      LUK: Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        
        LUK:
         
        Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power the metering device.
         
        By the spelling of some words, it seems that you are located in the Old continent of Europe
         
        I would suggest that You start indicating the power level needed, as well as, the voltage and a description of the power energy "pulses" ( time of operation ) to see how the problem can be solved.
         
        The well, a hole in the ground with water some meters below will require some type of power that can be mechanical or electrical to raise the water to the container you indicate you want to use.
         
        Just to raise the water of 1 liter/second  lets say  7 meters in the well and another  18 meters to the container = 25 meters
         
        System Efficiency = 0.7
         
        Power in watts =( 1 * 25 * 9.81 )/ 0.7 = 242.25 watt /0.7 = 350 watts , and in KWH = 350/3600 = 0.097
         
         So to bring ONE liter of water to the container the energy needed is 350 watts during one second -- we can distribute that power in a lapse of time that may reduce the peak power but still the power level required is there .
         
        This power is much greater than the power that can be produced using in this case a turbine  and in a practical sense if we can produce the energy the level  may be much less than 50 % of the energy needed to raise the water to the container.
         
        For your case it is necessary to think a bit different to attain what you need POWER wise so it is better to inform to see if there are other energy principles that could be used WISELY and effectively.
         
        Since You need a silent system then the power generator system has to have  several requirements to fulfill making the system a bit more difficult to implement because I see that it requires to be "camouflaged" to make it invisible to the human eyes .
         
        Nando
         
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 05:34
        Subject: [microhydro] small need of power

         

        Hello group,
         
        I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
        60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
        The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
        Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
        I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
        Thank you for any advise. 
         
        Luk
         
         
         
        From: Jack
        Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
         
         

        I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  

        Cheers to those in the know.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
        To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
        Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

         
        I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
        Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
        Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
        Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
        Regards to all the group.
        Angel

        Enviado desde mi iPhone

        El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

         
        Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

        Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

        The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
        Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

        From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
        Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
        Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
         
         
        Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

        Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
        in hydro technology.

        Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
        question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
        defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
        principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
        have.

        Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
        information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
        many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
        problem solved.

        Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
        something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
        hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

        Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
        that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
        300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
        all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
        guessing .

        For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
        the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
        watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
        season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
        diameter.

        Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
        chargers suggested by other groups.

        At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
        along penstock and the site .

        This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
        may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
        opposite.

        My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
        problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
        requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
        response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

        Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
        presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
        knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
        principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
        not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
        information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

        SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
        think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
        these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
        or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

        Nando

      • Michael Welch
        I think you can still get a High Lifter. Alternative Energy Engineering used to manufacture them, but after they became AEE Solar they farmed it out to some of
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          I think you can still get a High Lifter. Alternative Energy Engineering used to manufacture them, but after they became AEE Solar they farmed it out to some of their ex-employees. But if you call AEE Solar, they should be able to refer you to a dealer that can sell you one. 800-777-6609.

          I have a High Lifter, but stopped using it because I have a lot of fines in my water, which wore out the pumps precision seals fairly quickly. I use a ram pump instead.

          All that said, you will probably be better off just using a PV module for your metering, or several if you are in an area of little sun. You can buy a lot of PV power for the cost of a High Lifter, tank, and hydro system.

          Luk Vanhauwaert wrote at 03:34 AM 10/1/2012:
           


          Hello group,
           
          I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
          60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
          The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
          Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
          I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
          Thank you for any advise. 
           
          Luk
           
           
           
          From: Jack
          Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
           
           

          I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  
          Cheers to those in the know.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
          To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

           
          I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
          Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
          Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
          Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
          Regards to all the group.
          Angel

          Enviado desde mi iPhone

          El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

           
          Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

          Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

          The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

          From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
          Sender: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
          To: MICROHYDRO@< microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          ReplyTo: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
           
           
          Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

          Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
          in hydro technology.

          Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
          question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
          defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
          principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
          have.

          Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
          information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
          many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
          problem solved.

          Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
          something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
          hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

          Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
          that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
          300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
          all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
          guessing .

          For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
          the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
          watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
          season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
          diameter.

          Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
          chargers suggested by other groups.

          At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
          along penstock and the site .

          This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
          may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
          opposite.

          My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
          problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
          requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
          response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

          Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
          presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
          knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
          principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
          not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
          information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

          SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
          think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
          these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
          or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

          Nando


        • Manfred Mornhinweg
          Luk, I agree with Michael on this matter. When you need just a small amount of power for a remote measuring device, the obvious solution is a small solar
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Luk,

            I agree with Michael on this matter. When you need just a small amount
            of power for a remote measuring device, the obvious solution is a small
            solar panel. It's long lived, reliable, silent, maintenance free, and at
            this low level of power it's much less expensive than even a simple
            microhydro system, let alone one as complicate as you have in mind.

            You only need a small solar panel, a regulator, and a sealed battery.
            Set it up, and forget it for the next several years. Replace the battery
            every six years or so, and that's all the maintenance you need to do.

            Microhydro comes into its own when you need far more power than that,
            and you have a convenient source of water, with enough flow and lots of
            head - and definitely not a well from which you would need to pump UP
            the water!

            Manfred



            ========================
            Visit my hobby homepage!
            http://ludens.cl
            ========================
          • Luk Vanhauwaert
            Hi Nando, Michel Welch and Manfred, Thank You all for your sugestions on solar. Sorry I did not told you in my short text because thinking about working with
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 6, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Nando, Michel Welch and Manfred,
               
              Thank You all for your sugestions on solar. Sorry I did not told you in my short text because thinking about working with the high lifter was because we tried solar. Technical there were no problems only we had all 6 we tried stolen very fast. Solar panel is exposed in the wide open for its good function and therefor easy visible. high lifter you can close in a concrete box under ground. the whole invisible. So my question is still urgent. the measuring devise is very small as can be the battery for easy camoflage
              Nando to answer your question on power, needed is only 12 volts 1.5 amp. so if we could fill up a small car battery then we would be able to run some time and in the mean time the watercontainer could fill up untill it was needed to release all the acumulated  water at once and harnass te energy for the battery by means af a very little turgo (?)
              We hope we could pump up the water to the container high enough by means of one or two high lifters. They work without any electricity and almost silent as I read. 
              Michel Welch, thank you for the info on the high lifter. I have not yet phoned american producer but are you eventualy ready to sell your not longer used lifter.
              Yes Nando you ar right, I am from the old contignent the eastside of europe.
               
              Freindly greetings to all and thank again for the good help.
               
              Luk
               
              From: Nando
              Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 6:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
               
               

              

              LUK:
               
              Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power the metering device.
               
              By the spelling of some words, it seems that you are located in the Old continent of Europe
               
              I would suggest that You start indicating the power level needed, as well as, the voltage and a description of the power energy "pulses" ( time of operation ) to see how the problem can be solved.
               
              The well, a hole in the ground with water some meters below will require some type of power that can be mechanical or electrical to raise the water to the container you indicate you want to use.
              only
              Just to raise the water of 1 liter/second  lets say  7 meters in the well and another  18 meters to the container = 25 meters
               
              System Efficiency = 0.7
               
              Power in watts =( 1 * 25 * 9.81 )/ 0.7 = 242.25 watt /0.7 = 350 watts , and in KWH = 350/3600 = 0.097
               
              So to bring ONE liter of water to the container the energy needed is 350 watts during one second -- we can distribute that power in a lapse of time that may reduce the peak power but still the power level required is there .
               
              This power is much greater than the power that can be produced using in this case a turbine  and in a practical sense if we can produce the energy the level  may be much less than 50 % of the energy needed to raise the water to the container.
               
              For your case it is necessary to think a bit different to attain what you need POWER wise so it is better to inform to see if there are other energy principles that could be used WISELY and effectively.
               
              Since You need a silent system then the power generator system has to have  several requirements to fulfill making the system a bit more difficult to implement because I see that it requires to be "camouflaged" to make it invisible to the human eyes .
               
              Nando
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 05:34
              Subject: [microhydro] small need of power
               
               

              Hello group,
               
              I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
              60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
              The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
              Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
              I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
              Thank you for any advise. 
               
              Luk
               
               
               
              From: Jack
              Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
               
               

              I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  

              Cheers to those in the know.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
              To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

               
              I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
              Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
              Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
              Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
              Regards to all the group.
              Angel

              Enviado desde mi iPhone

              El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

               
              Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

              Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

              The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
              Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

              From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
              Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
              Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
               
               
              Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

              Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
              in hydro technology.

              Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
              question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
              defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
              principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
              have.

              Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
              information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
              many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
              problem solved.

              Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
              something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
              hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

              Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
              that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
              300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
              all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
              guessing .

              For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
              the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
              watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
              season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
              diameter.

              Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
              chargers suggested by other groups.

              At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
              along penstock and the site .

              This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
              may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
              opposite.

              My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
              problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
              requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
              response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

              Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
              presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
              knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
              principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
              not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
              information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

              SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
              think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
              these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
              or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

              Nando

            • mengel@frontiernet.net
              Hi Luk-If you truly have a well highlifter will do nothing as it requres a flow to work. If (as seems likely from what you say) you actually have a flowing
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Luk-If you truly have a "well" highlifter will do nothing as it requres a flow to work. If (as seems likely from what you say) you actually have a flowing spring or artesian well (really an artificial spring) why not put the turbine where the water flow is and run wire to your sensor or battery? Wire is much easier to install/hide than pipe and electrons much easier to push uphill than water! --mike



                From: Luk Vanhauwaert <luk@...>
                To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 9:36 AM
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power

                 
                Hi Nando, Michel Welch and Manfred,
                 
                Thank You all for your sugestions on solar. Sorry I did not told you in my short text because thinking about working with the high lifter was because we tried solar. Technical there were no problems only we had all 6 we tried stolen very fast. Solar panel is exposed in the wide open for its good function and therefor easy visible. high lifter you can close in a concrete box under ground. the whole invisible. So my question is still urgent. the measuring devise is very small as can be the battery for easy camoflage
                Nando to answer your question on power, needed is only 12 volts 1.5 amp. so if we could fill up a small car battery then we would be able to run some time and in the mean time the watercontainer could fill up untill it was needed to release all the acumulated  water at once and harnass te energy for the battery by means af a very little turgo (?)
                We hope we could pump up the water to the container high enough by means of one or two high lifters. They work without any electricity and almost silent as I read. 
                Michel Welch, thank you for the info on the high lifter. I have not yet phoned american producer but are you eventualy ready to sell your not longer used lifter.
                Yes Nando you ar right, I am from the old contignent the eastside of europe.
                 
                Freindly greetings to all and thank again for the good help.
                 
                Luk
                 
                From: Nando
                Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 6:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
                 
                 
                
                LUK:
                 
                Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power the metering device.
                 
                By the spelling of some words, it seems that you are located in the Old continent of Europe
                 
                I would suggest that You start indicating the power level needed, as well as, the voltage and a description of the power energy "pulses" ( time of operation ) to see how the problem can be solved.
                 
                The well, a hole in the ground with water some meters below will require some type of power that can be mechanical or electrical to raise the water to the container you indicate you want to use.
                only
                Just to raise the water of 1 liter/second  lets say  7 meters in the well and another  18 meters to the container = 25 meters
                 
                System Efficiency = 0.7
                 
                Power in watts =( 1 * 25 * 9.81 )/ 0.7 = 242.25 watt /0.7 = 350 watts , and in KWH = 350/3600 = 0.097
                 
                So to bring ONE liter of water to the container the energy needed is 350 watts during one second -- we can distribute that power in a lapse of time that may reduce the peak power but still the power level required is there .
                 
                This power is much greater than the power that can be produced using in this case a turbine  and in a practical sense if we can produce the energy the level  may be much less than 50 % of the energy needed to raise the water to the container.
                 
                For your case it is necessary to think a bit different to attain what you need POWER wise so it is better to inform to see if there are other energy principles that could be used WISELY and effectively.
                 
                Since You need a silent system then the power generator system has to have  several requirements to fulfill making the system a bit more difficult to implement because I see that it requires to be "camouflaged" to make it invisible to the human eyes .
                 
                Nando
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 05:34
                Subject: [microhydro] small need of power
                 
                 
                Hello group,
                 
                I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
                60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
                The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
                Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
                I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
                Thank you for any advise. 
                 
                Luk
                 
                 
                 
                From: Jack
                Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                 
                 
                I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  
                Cheers to those in the know.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
                To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
                Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

                 
                I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
                Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
                Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
                Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
                Regards to all the group.
                Angel

                Enviado desde mi iPhone

                El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

                 
                Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

                Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

                The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
                Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
                Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
                Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                 
                 
                Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

                Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
                in hydro technology.

                Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
                question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
                defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
                principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
                have.

                Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
                information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
                many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
                problem solved.

                Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
                something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
                hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

                Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
                that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
                300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
                all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
                guessing .

                For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
                the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
                watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
                season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
                diameter.

                Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
                chargers suggested by other groups.

                At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
                along penstock and the site .

                This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
                may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
                opposite.

                My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
                problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
                requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
                response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

                Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
                presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
                knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
                principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
                not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
                information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

                SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
                think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
                these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
                or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

                Nando



              • Michael Welch
                No, not interested in selling at this time. It is backup to my ram pump.
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 6, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  No, not interested in selling at this time. It is backup to my ram pump.

                  Luk Vanhauwaert wrote at 07:36 AM 10/6/2012:

                  >Michel Welch, thank you for the info on the high lifter. I have not yet phoned american producer but are you eventualy ready to sell your not longer used lifter.
                • Nando
                  Luk: If you can use a high lifter then you have a water flow with some head and the power needed is 18 watts , is there the possibility of using a small
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 6, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    
                    Luk:
                     
                    If you can use a high lifter then you have a water flow with some head  and the power needed is 18 watts , is there the possibility of using a small turbine to produce the necessary power directly and send the wires to the measuring device.
                     
                    Also, why so 12 volts @ 1,5 amps -- I am wondering what is the exactly the power needed and what can be done to reduce the power you report you need, there are methods to reduce the power specially by doing testing in cycles and not continuously if such is possible.
                     
                    The possible use of a small wind mill capable of producing those 18 watts .
                     
                    Also if you  have 10 meters head and 0.3 liter/second you can produce the 18 watts -- or to have equivalent heads and volume all depend -- and to be quite careful building the Turgo.
                     
                    A very small Turbines like a Turgo can be made to produce a low wattage if one is capable of handling small things and have the equipment to fabricate them .
                     
                    Nando
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 09:36
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power

                     

                    Hi Nando, Michel Welch and Manfred,
                     
                    Thank You all for your sugestions on solar. Sorry I did not told you in my short text because thinking about working with the high lifter was because we tried solar. Technical there were no problems only we had all 6 we tried stolen very fast. Solar panel is exposed in the wide open for its good function and therefor easy visible. high lifter you can close in a concrete box under ground. the whole invisible. So my question is still urgent. the measuring devise is very small as can be the battery for easy camoflage
                    Nando to answer your question on power, needed is only 12 volts 1.5 amp. so if we could fill up a small car battery then we would be able to run some time and in the mean time the watercontainer could fill up untill it was needed to release all the acumulated  water at once and harnass te energy for the battery by means af a very little turgo (?)
                    We hope we could pump up the water to the container high enough by means of one or two high lifters. They work without any electricity and almost silent as I read. 
                    Michel Welch, thank you for the info on the high lifter. I have not yet phoned american producer but are you eventualy ready to sell your not longer used lifter.
                    Yes Nando you ar right, I am from the old contignent the eastside of europe.
                     
                    Freindly greetings to all and thank again for the good help.
                     
                    Luk
                     
                    From: Nando
                    Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 6:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
                     
                     

                    

                    LUK:
                     
                    Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power the metering device.
                     
                    By the spelling of some words, it seems that you are located in the Old continent of Europe
                     
                    I would suggest that You start indicating the power level needed, as well as, the voltage and a description of the power energy "pulses" ( time of operation ) to see how the problem can be solved.
                     
                    The well, a hole in the ground with water some meters below will require some type of power that can be mechanical or electrical to raise the water to the container you indicate you want to use.
                    only
                    Just to raise the water of 1 liter/second  lets say  7 meters in the well and another  18 meters to the container = 25 meters
                     
                    System Efficiency = 0.7
                     
                    Power in watts =( 1 * 25 * 9.81 )/ 0.7 = 242.25 watt /0.7 = 350 watts , and in KWH = 350/3600 = 0.097
                     
                    So to bring ONE liter of water to the container the energy needed is 350 watts during one second -- we can distribute that power in a lapse of time that may reduce the peak power but still the power level required is there .
                     
                    This power is much greater than the power that can be produced using in this case a turbine  and in a practical sense if we can produce the energy the level  may be much less than 50 % of the energy needed to raise the water to the container.
                     
                    For your case it is necessary to think a bit different to attain what you need POWER wise so it is better to inform to see if there are other energy principles that could be used WISELY and effectively.
                     
                    Since You need a silent system then the power generator system has to have  several requirements to fulfill making the system a bit more difficult to implement because I see that it requires to be "camouflaged" to make it invisible to the human eyes .
                     
                    Nando
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 05:34
                    Subject: [microhydro] small need of power
                     
                     

                    Hello group,
                     
                    I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
                    60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
                    The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
                    Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
                    I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
                    Thank you for any advise. 
                     
                    Luk
                     
                     
                     
                    From: Jack
                    Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                     
                     

                    I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  

                    Cheers to those in the know.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
                    To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
                    Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

                     
                    I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
                    Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
                    Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
                    Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
                    Regards to all the group.
                    Angel

                    Enviado desde mi iPhone

                    El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

                     
                    Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

                    Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

                    The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
                    Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                    From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
                    Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
                    Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                     
                     
                    Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

                    Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
                    in hydro technology.

                    Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
                    question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
                    defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
                    principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
                    have.

                    Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
                    information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
                    many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
                    problem solved.

                    Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
                    something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
                    hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

                    Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
                    that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
                    300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
                    all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
                    guessing .

                    For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
                    the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
                    watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
                    season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
                    diameter.

                    Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
                    chargers suggested by other groups.

                    At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
                    along penstock and the site .

                    This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
                    may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
                    opposite.

                    My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
                    problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
                    requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
                    response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

                    Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
                    presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
                    knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
                    principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
                    not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
                    information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

                    SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
                    think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
                    these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
                    or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

                    Nando

                  • Manfred Mornhinweg
                    Luk, I have now looked at the Highlifter website, to see what that pump is all about. Unfortunately the ratio of pumping net head to input head isn t good
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 7, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Luk,

                      I have now looked at the Highlifter website, to see what that pump is
                      all about. Unfortunately the ratio of pumping net head to input head
                      isn't good enough for an application I had in mind! :-(

                      But returning to your situation:

                      > we tried solar. Technical there were no problems only we
                      > had all 6 we tried stolen very fast.

                      In that case I don't think you can do anything there! If thieves take
                      away anything you install there, the only way to go would be to build a
                      concrete bunker with reinforced steel door, and that's expensive. And if
                      you build that bunker, you could as well install the solar panel on top
                      of it, protected by 10cm thick polycarbonate embedded in concrete along
                      its edges. Not very practical, I suppose, but if you install a
                      highlifter pump with all the piping it requires, plus a large water tank
                      up there, plus a picohydro unit, plus a battery, control and regulating
                      system, plus your scientific instrument, it will be more expensive than
                      the bunker with solar power, and those thieves will happily carry away
                      all your stuff. I don't think they are selective about solar panels. And
                      if a little solar panel is visible enough to attract thieves, then a
                      huge installation with hydroelectromechanical machinery and many meters
                      of piping up and down the hill will be FAR more visible!

                      > Solar panel is exposed in the
                      > wide open for its good function and therefor easy visible.

                      Not really. I have installed "invisible" little solar power systems, by
                      putting everything in and on a tree. It just takes some maintenance:
                      Pruning the tree so that the panel stays in sunlight, but is hidden from
                      the ground. In the country where I live, we have the same crime problem,
                      and in many places anything that isn't well hidden, nor embedded in
                      concrete, gets stolen.

                      > high
                      > lifter you can close in a concrete box under ground. the whole
                      > invisible.

                      You would have to bury the entire installation, including all pipes.

                      Do you realize that to use the highlifter you have to install a penstock
                      from your watersource running many meters down to the Highlifter, and
                      from there another pipe (can be thin) up to your elevated big tank, and
                      from there another thick penstock down to the picohydro machine?

                      > So my question is still urgent. the measuring devise is
                      > very small as can be the battery for easy camoflage Nando to answer
                      > your question on power, needed is only 12 volts 1.5 amp.

                      That's actually not so little power! 18 watts, if that's continuous,
                      already would require a rather largish solar panel, and the battery
                      would need to be a 100Ah deep cycle one, not a small car battery.

                      > so if we
                      > could fill up a small car battery then we would be able to run some
                      > time and in the mean time the watercontainer could fill up untill it
                      > was needed to release all the acumulated water at once and harnass
                      > te energy for the battery by means af a very little turgo (?)

                      WHY???

                      If you need a continuous and modest amount of power, why would you want
                      to store a lot of energy as water in a big elevated tank, and then
                      release it quickly to fast charge a battery? From the engineering point
                      of view, that's totally nonsensical. If your power source is an elevated
                      water hole from which you can take water and conduct it downhill to
                      extract some energy, than this energy source is small and continuous,
                      just like the demand of your measuring equipment. The logical thing
                      would be to power the equipment directly, without intermediate storage,
                      let alone two stages of storage (tank AND battery)!

                      If you go solar, of course you need battery storage for nighttime and
                      bad weather spells. But with hydro, no storage is needed.

                      > We hope
                      > we could pump up the water to the container high enough by means of
                      > one or two high lifters. They work without any electricity and almost
                      > silent as I read.

                      But have you seen the table relating the amount of water needed, the
                      input head, the net pumping head, and the output flow rate? Do you
                      actually have enough head available to run such a device? You were
                      talking about a well. I (and probably others on this forum) assume that
                      you mean a sort of water hole on a hillside, from which the water flows
                      down. If you mean a deep hole in the ground, from which water has to be
                      pumped up, of course that is not an energy source, and you would need a
                      magical device, instead of that Highlifter, to extract any energy from it!

                      Back to your original message:

                      > 60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up
                      > through means of a “High lifter” pump

                      If the water from the well is flowing out of the well and flowing
                      downhill by itself, then you can pump a small portion of that water up
                      using a Highlifter pump. But if that well is at the bottom of the
                      terrain, and water is not flowing out and down of it, then you cannot
                      pump water up using the highlifter.

                      > Have then the water cumulated in a container and after
                      > filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once

                      That would be highly inefficient, requiring a relatively large penstock
                      and turbogenerator, which stays idle most of the time. Very uneconomical.

                      > to
                      > generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,)

                      A few tens of watts.

                      > and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement
                      > devise.

                      Fast charging a battery is less efficient than slow charging it. If your
                      device consumes 1.5A, then a battery of a few amperehour capacity will
                      be killed in a short time, because of excessive cycling.

                      > The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter”

                      Fine, so at least there is some head to work with. But 7 meters is very
                      little for the Highlifter. It's inefficient at such low head.

                      > amount of water is low, some 7 litres.

                      7 litres per second, per minute, per hour, per day, or what?

                      > Also not any mail adress of any “high
                      > lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question
                      > “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the
                      > device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller?

                      The ones I checked seem to be dead.

                      Luk, really your need would be best supplied by a solar panel. With all
                      thief-proofing measures required, it will still be less expensive than
                      the water pumping scheme you have in mind. And don't believe that an
                      installation of water pumps, turbines, pipes, a big tank, and so on,
                      wouldn't be attractive to thieves, or would pass unnoticed.

                      You might have to find a protected site for that measuring equipment,
                      like next to the house of someone living there. Or you could consider a
                      very visible installation that is reasonably thief-proof, such as a
                      tall, smooth, free-standing, concrete-embedded steel mast, with
                      everything installed at the top. Most thieves won't carry the necessary
                      saw up to that place, and thieves tend to be lazy, they typically don't
                      cut down such masts. They steal only what's reasonably effortless to steal.

                      You might consider technological aids, such a system with a camera,
                      motion detector, and cellphone or radio link, that shoots and transmits
                      photos of anyone coming close. That won't prevent the theft, but can
                      easily lead to catching the thief afterwards.

                      And if all that seems impossible, I would suggest to simply declare the
                      project impossible, due to high delinquency in the area. There are some
                      places in the world that first need to get rid of their criminals,
                      before it's possible to do any other improvements. I live in a country
                      that has many such areas, so I know.

                      Manfred

                      ========================
                      Visit my hobby homepage!
                      http://ludens.cl
                      ========================
                    • kbs2244
                      For your high lifter have you looked into the various bubbler devices? Or even a small scale ram pump? A common toilet tank fill valve could be modified so
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 7, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        For your "high lifter" have you looked into the various "bubbler" devices?
                        Or even a small scale ram pump?

                        A common toilet tank fill valve could be modified so that the float opened the outlet when the tank was full. This would give you a fully automatic but simple, totally mechanical system on the water side.

                        Do they still make the small generators that rubbed on a bicycle wheel for lights? One of those, or even a slot car style DC motor would be a good generator running off your turbine.
                      • Nando
                        One practical solution is to use a Small 24 volts PMA ( Brushless) of around 2400 RPM or less and to use a very small Turgo turbine which in reality is a 4
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 7, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One practical solution is to use a Small 24 volts PMA ( Brushless)  of around 2400 RPM or less and to use a very small Turgo turbine which in reality is a 4 cms diameter and using around 0.15 l/s to produce around  5 to 8 watts and to minimize the power usage to attain the necessary charge and at the same time the data collection
                           
                          Using a lifter the system is WASTING the energy that the lifter is using and reducing the energy harvesting to less than  10 % of the water source available energy.
                           
                          If this alternative is desired then I can supply the way to design the very small Turgo Turbine though the need to have a good mechanical shop with a lathe and some other pieces of equipment to be able to build the miniature Turbine .
                           
                          One needs to analyze  what the system needs and at the same time analyze what is available and to look for alternatives that maximize the energy harvesting also reducing the energy steps to maximize the harvesting.
                           
                          Nando
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: kbs2244
                          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 13:09
                          Subject: [microhydro] small need of power

                           

                          For your "high lifter" have you looked into the various "bubbler" devices?
                          Or even a small scale ram pump?

                          A common toilet tank fill valve could be modified so that the float opened the outlet when the tank was full. This would give you a fully automatic but simple, totally mechanical system on the water side.

                          Do they still make the small generators that rubbed on a bicycle wheel for lights? One of those, or even a slot car style DC motor would be a good generator running off your turbine.

                        • Luk Vanhauwaert
                          Hello everyone, Thank you for all the sugetions. I think I will forget my previous idea and indeed go for harvesting the energy lower instead of using the high
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 8, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello everyone,
                             
                            Thank you for all the sugetions. I think I will forget my previous idea and indeed go for harvesting the energy lower instead of using the high lifter. I read so many sense that I think indeed it is the way to go.
                            Thank you all.
                             
                            Luk
                             
                            Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 1:26 AM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
                             
                             

                            Hi Luk-If you truly have a "well" highlifter will do nothing as it requres a flow to work. If (as seems likely from what you say) you actually have a flowing spring or artesian well (really an artificial spring) why not put the turbine where the water flow is and run wire to your sensor or battery? Wire is much easier to install/hide than pipe and electrons much easier to push uphill than water! --mike

                             

                            From: Luk Vanhauwaert <luk@...>
                            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 9:36 AM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
                             
                             
                            Hi Nando, Michel Welch and Manfred,
                             
                            Thank You all for your sugestions on solar. Sorry I did not told you in my short text because thinking about working with the high lifter was because we tried solar. Technical there were no problems only we had all 6 we tried stolen very fast. Solar panel is exposed in the wide open for its good function and therefor easy visible. high lifter you can close in a concrete box under ground. the whole invisible. So my question is still urgent. the measuring devise is very small as can be the battery for easy camoflage
                            Nando to answer your question on power, needed is only 12 volts 1.5 amp. so if we could fill up a small car battery then we would be able to run some time and in the mean time the watercontainer could fill up untill it was needed to release all the acumulated  water at once and harnass te energy for the battery by means af a very little turgo (?)
                            We hope we could pump up the water to the container high enough by means of one or two high lifters. They work without any electricity and almost silent as I read. 
                            Michel Welch, thank you for the info on the high lifter. I have not yet phoned american producer but are you eventualy ready to sell your not longer used lifter.
                            Yes Nando you ar right, I am from the old contignent the eastside of europe.
                             
                            Freindly greetings to all and thank again for the good help.
                             
                            Luk
                             
                            From: Nando
                            Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 6:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] small need of power
                             
                             
                            
                            LUK:
                             
                            Your idea of pumping UP the water means that you have the power to raise the water so many meters that may be the equivalent energy that you need to power the metering device.
                             
                            By the spelling of some words, it seems that you are located in the Old continent of Europe
                             
                            I would suggest that You start indicating the power level needed, as well as, the voltage and a description of the power energy "pulses" ( time of operation ) to see how the problem can be solved.
                             
                            The well, a hole in the ground with water some meters below will require some type of power that can be mechanical or electrical to raise the water to the container you indicate you want to use.
                            only
                            Just to raise the water of 1 liter/second  lets say  7 meters in the well and another  18 meters to the container = 25 meters
                             
                            System Efficiency = 0.7
                             
                            Power in watts =( 1 * 25 * 9.81 )/ 0.7 = 242.25 watt /0.7 = 350 watts , and in KWH = 350/3600 = 0.097
                             
                            So to bring ONE liter of water to the container the energy needed is 350 watts during one second -- we can distribute that power in a lapse of time that may reduce the peak power but still the power level required is there .
                             
                            This power is much greater than the power that can be produced using in this case a turbine  and in a practical sense if we can produce the energy the level  may be much less than 50 % of the energy needed to raise the water to the container.
                             
                            For your case it is necessary to think a bit different to attain what you need POWER wise so it is better to inform to see if there are other energy principles that could be used WISELY and effectively.
                             
                            Since You need a silent system then the power generator system has to have  several requirements to fulfill making the system a bit more difficult to implement because I see that it requires to be "camouflaged" to make it invisible to the human eyes .
                             
                            Nando
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 05:34
                            Subject: [microhydro] small need of power
                             
                             
                            Hello group,
                             
                            I need some small amount of power for a metering devise in remote area.
                            60 metres below is a small well. Can I pump that water up through means of a “High lifter” pump (maybe two are needed put in cascade). Have then the water cumulated in a container and after filling up the container completely, relaese all the water at once to generate by means of a mini turbine (what are the smallest turbines,) and fill up one small 12 volt only few amps batery of a measurement devise.
                            The well can drop 7 meters to the first “high lifter” amount of water is low, some 7 litres.
                            Also not any mail adress of any “high lifter” suplier on the net is responding that brings up the question “is the “high lifter” manufactury still in business and producing the device? do somebody have knoledge of a respondive seller? Has someone ever used a “High lifter” and how did it preform?
                            I do not like to use a ram pump due to it noici operation it would be noticed and fast stolen.
                            Thank you for any advise. 
                             
                            Luk
                             
                             
                             
                            From: Jack
                            Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                             
                             
                            I too, have found Nando and other's advice very valuable.   It is evident that if you lurk around here long enough to see the wisdom and passion of those in the know.   Success is achieved when all the facts and figures are penciled out.  
                            Cheers to those in the know.


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Allhydro <allhydro@...>
                            To: microhydro <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 11:16 am
                            Subject: Re: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

                             
                            I've love this topic since the very first time Nando posted about it in the many different occasion he's done it and believe me Cisse you are doing a very well copilot lessons but some-others they just don't care and come to the group with half questions, get mad when deeper questions about theirs are formulated and in most cases they abort the project when this happens.
                            Most of us are very busy people with more than a business to do, family and humans beings too.
                            Hydro implementation is an engineering problem and Nando does an outstandingly good job by taking it to the closest DUY  level as possible and thanks to him, his overall knowledge and the time he gathers for this task this site has become into the hydro solution well where it is so easy to come drinking but try to imagine the site without his presence. I bet most is posting won't ever find a reply because they are even no sense asking way and people like me, living our life in a rush, we have no time to accommodate anybody's thoughts and instructing people around the way they should take  measuring or the conversion factors ... So they better pay very good attention to what this man is telling when he is doing it because you are not getting more attention from anybody else in this group than from him neither more free and valuable knowledge.
                            Hope nobody attacks me for my statement.
                            Regards to all the group.
                            Angel

                            Enviado desde mi iPhone

                            El Sep 29, 2012, a las 4:54 PM, mohcis@... escribió:

                             
                            Good job Nando, that's a great accomplishment.

                            Keep in mind though, some people who join the group (including myself) have no clue about hydro. They just heard that you can get electricity from water and found this site. Voila, their problem is solved! Now when they ask a question, you engineers have your minds going all over the place. They learn that they have to swim across the ocean (in learning) to get light out of the water. Hence the frustration on both sides. What is needed to facilitate the conversation is to first speak in layman terms until you have a sense of the questioner's understanding of hydro and his/her commitment to learn more about it for the DIY project. If the questioner just wants a black box solution, you can simply provide the info if you have it. The rule of thumb would work like this: does he want to just fly from A to B? If yes, show him where to get the flight ticket. If no, does he want to become a pilot? If yes, show him a school or materials to read. If not, does he want to become a co pilot? If yes, instruct him properly how you can fly the plane together. If no, end the conversation.

                            The thing is, most engineers here assume that people join the group to become co pilot, which is not necessarily the case. One cannot be electrical engineer, politician, athlete, plumber, banker, programmer, doctor and farmer at the same time.
                            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                            From: "Nando" <nando37@...>
                            Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:01:57 -0500
                            Subject: [microhydro] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
                             
                             
                            Often the microhydro group gets messages requesting assistance and

                            Often, I get direct emails requesting assistance covering diverse questions
                            in hydro technology.

                            Some of the questioners very often want just a specific response to a
                            question but by the way the questioner asks, the level of experience is
                            defined including the level of understanding the hydro-electric-mechanical
                            principles to solve the problem or the problems that the person asking may
                            have.

                            Instead of responding to the question I indicate the need to have additional
                            information to properly suggest the path to solve the problem, unhappily
                            many for some no non known reason do not supply the information to get the
                            problem solved.

                            Hydro ( water) is a very deceiving liquid and those that want to do
                            something with it NEED to learn to understand it to attain the solution at
                            hand in a way that is simple, economic and maximized return.

                            Recently I had a case where a simple question was sent to me but I noticed
                            that the questioner lacked the expertise to know how to accomplish the small
                            300 watts turbine -- after some insistence and assistance, I was able to get
                            all the parameters that the site owner measured carefully instead of
                            guessing .

                            For a period of about 4 months I have been directing the fellow to install
                            the system the right way discovering at the same time that instead of 300
                            watts the final set up is now producing a bit more than 3 KW during the dry
                            season and about 9 KW during the wet season limited by the penstock
                            diameter.

                            Happily for him, He did not buy the large battery bank and inverters and
                            chargers suggested by other groups.

                            At the same time the penstock can be used for firefight protection near and
                            along penstock and the site .

                            This message in reality is written to show why I ask questions that often
                            may seem superfluous or unnecessary but the real reasons are completely the
                            opposite.

                            My interest is to supply the proper and most practical solution to the
                            problem or problems -- and sometimes I do not supply a response if the
                            requested data is not given because I do not want or desire to supply a
                            response that may be a " wild guess " to the asked question.

                            Often the questioner seems to know but again the way that the question is
                            presented or how was presented shows that the questioner may have a basic
                            knowledge in some of the areas of the hydro -electric- mechanical needed
                            principles but show that the relation between the different technologies is
                            not well understood requiring that the questioner does supply additional
                            information about the site to accomplish the hydro installation.

                            SO , please put aside all the thoughts to limit the information because you
                            think that You know how to do the installation, if you ask for solutions,
                            these means that there are lagoons and black rooms that need to be cleaned
                            or lighted to allow to finish a system well done .

                            Nando



                          • kbs2244
                            I like your idea Nando. I assume you are thinking of direct driving the turbine from a small penstock tube. While sitting in traffic yesterday I also thought
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 9, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I like your idea Nando.
                              I assume you are thinking of direct driving the turbine from a small penstock tube.

                              While sitting in traffic yesterday I also thought the "lifting" part unnecessary.
                              But would there be any advantage to incorporating a small ram pump to increase the force of the water hitting the turbine?
                              It would add some complexity and a pulsing effect.
                              But ram pumps have a pretty good history and a fly wheel would smooth things out.
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.