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Computer Model of a Draft Tube - Hydraucone

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  • tojoe999
    I have been trying to model a special form of Draft Tube using CFD software. I am having some difficulty with the modeling. A simple Symscape software model
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 1 12:49 PM
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      I have been trying to model a special form of Draft Tube using CFD software.

      I am having some difficulty with the modeling.

      A simple Symscape software model and some sketches of the Hydraucone Draft Tube have been uploaded to a folder on this web page

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/files/Hydraucone/

      Does any kind person in this Yahoo Group have access to CFD software such as ANSYS Fluent

      http://www.ansys.com/Products/Simulation+Technology/Fluid+Dynamics/ANSYS+Fluent

      Modeling the Hydraucone Draft Tube would make a great project for a student or someone learning CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).

      The key parameter that interests me is the distance of the turbine to the deflector plate.

      I am planning to install a Hydraucone Draft Tube in my watermill this summer. My motivation to use it is the space between two old buildings which limits deep excavation.

      Any help would be much appreciated.

      Tony M.
    • Chris Finnigan
      Tony, Seeing your latest posting reminded me that I never got back to you regarding the Google books, I did try to load the book quite a few times without
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 2 12:23 PM
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        Tony,

        Seeing your latest posting reminded me that I never got back to you
        regarding the Google books, I did try to load the book quite a few times
        without success, it would appear that only snap shots of the pages are
        available and not the full text, sorry about that.

        I have stalled a little with the Quillan project, I unfortunately
        discovered that there is less head that I had originally guestimated, only
        about 1.3m so it is not really a viable investment. I will continue to
        "bricoler" as and when I can.

        Best regards,

        Chris Finnigan


        On 1 April 2012 20:49, tojoe999 <tojoe999@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I have been trying to model a special form of Draft Tube using CFD
        > software.
        >
        > I am having some difficulty with the modeling.
        >
        > A simple Symscape software model and some sketches of the Hydraucone Draft
        > Tube have been uploaded to a folder on this web page
        >
        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/files/Hydraucone/
        >
        > Does any kind person in this Yahoo Group have access to CFD software such
        > as ANSYS Fluent
        >
        >
        > http://www.ansys.com/Products/Simulation+Technology/Fluid+Dynamics/ANSYS+Fluent
        >
        > Modeling the Hydraucone Draft Tube would make a great project for a
        > student or someone learning CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).
        >
        > The key parameter that interests me is the distance of the turbine to the
        > deflector plate.
        >
        > I am planning to install a Hydraucone Draft Tube in my watermill this
        > summer. My motivation to use it is the space between two old buildings
        > which limits deep excavation.
        >
        > Any help would be much appreciated.
        >
        > Tony M.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Radu Babau
        Hello Tony, Quite nice works done over there. I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 22, 2012
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          Hello Tony,
           
           
          Quite nice works done over there.
           
          I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
           
          No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
           
          What you can also do on the top of that is:
          - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
          - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
           
          Goodluck with completing your application.
           
           
          Best regards,
           
          Radu
        • tojoe999
          Thank you Radu. Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 22, 2012
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            Thank you Radu.

            Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and the turbine hydraulics.

            The generator is a 200 kW Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) - water cooled. The draft tube is a Hydraucone.

            I am thinking of using a Windows based PLC (e.g. WP-8841-EN-G-CR ).

            Unfortunately the ABB inverter only uses the Profibus protocol.

            This means that I need a Modbus to Profibus gateway ( e.g. Mgate 4101-MB-PBS).

            I am also thinking of using Microsoft Visual Studio to develop the software, including the Maximum Power Point Tracking algorithm and displaying the performance data to a graphical User Interface.


            Tony M.


            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Tony,
            >
            >
            > Quite nice works done over there.
            >
            > I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
            >
            > No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
            >
            > What you can also do on the top of that is:
            > - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
            > - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
            >
            > Goodluck with completing your application.
            >
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Radu
            > www.varspeedhydro.com
            >
          • Radu Babau
            Hello Tony, The indicated code of the ABB drive looks a bit strange to me, I guess it can either be ACS800-17-0390-3 (315 kW, 400 V) or ACS800-17-0400-5 (315
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 24, 2012
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              Hello Tony,
               
               
              The indicated code of the ABB drive looks a bit strange to me, I guess it can either be ACS800-17-0390-3 (315 kW, 400 V) or ACS800-17-0400-5 (315 kW, 500 V). Pls. note that the ACS800 family has a Modbus interface (option module) called RMBA-01, which you can buy with ~200 EUR, to be plugged near or instead the existing Profibus RPBA-01 module.
               
              On the PLC, I would not use a Windows based PLC, because this operating system can jeopardize the stability of you application (source of program freeze). There are other non-PC based PLC's on the market which comes with similar development tools, to be accompanies with other SCADA application running on external TouchPanel, etc. (Windows or not Windows based - in this later case if Windows crashes, you reboot only the screen, not stop the turbine). Basically the bottom control layer (PLC gadgets) has to be as process direct as possible, with a minimal no. potential crash sources possible, while the upper control layer (SCADA+ communications - inherently complex) can crash more often, but won't disrupt the functionality of the bottom control layer.
               
               
              Happy Christmas !
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: tojoe999
              Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:07 AM
              Subject: [microhydro] Re: Moulin De Aillevans, France

               

              Thank you Radu.

              Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and the turbine hydraulics.

              The generator is a 200 kW Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) - water cooled. The draft tube is a Hydraucone.

              I am thinking of using a Windows based PLC (e.g. WP-8841-EN-G-CR ).

              Unfortunately the ABB inverter only uses the Profibus protocol.

              This means that I need a Modbus to Profibus gateway ( e.g. Mgate 4101-MB-PBS).

              I am also thinking of using Microsoft Visual Studio to develop the software, including the Maximum Power Point Tracking algorithm and displaying the performance data to a graphical User Interface.

              Tony M.

              --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Tony,
              >
              >
              > Quite nice works done over there.
              >
              > I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
              >
              > No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
              >
              > What you can also do on the top of that is:
              > - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
              > - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
              >
              > Goodluck with completing your application.
              >
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Radu
              > www.varspeedhydro.com
              >

            • Tony Goffe
              Hi, Tony, this tony in Jamaica, .....that installation series was great ..only wish each photo had a short description.. One thing : JPG 08-11-2012 F is a
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 24, 2012
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                Hi, Tony, this tony in Jamaica, .....that installation series was great ..only wish each photo had a short description..

                One thing : "JPG 08-11-2012 F"  is a shot of the prop going in. On the polished blades may be seen a "scroll-type" pattern (made with a power toll of sorts ?)  Does this have any practical function, or is it the efforts of some aspiring artist somewhere ??

                Thanks, tony goffe   "FELIZ NAVIDAD" TO ALL THE GROUPIES ....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  




                From: "tojoe999" <tojoe999@...>
                Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 3:59 PM
                To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [microhydro] Re: Moulin De Aillevans, France


                 

                Thank you Radu.

                Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and the turbine hydraulics.

                The generator is a 200 kW Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) - water cooled. The draft tube is a Hydraucone.

                I am thinking of using a Windows based PLC (e.g. WP-8841-EN-G-CR ).

                Unfortunately the ABB inverter only uses the Profibus protocol.

                This means that I need a Modbus to Profibus gateway ( e.g. Mgate 4101-MB-PBS).

                I am also thinking of using Microsoft Visual Studio to develop the software, including the Maximum Power Point Tracking algorithm and displaying the performance data to a graphical User Interface.

                Tony M.

                --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Tony,
                >
                >
                > Quite nice works done over there.
                >
                > I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
                >
                > No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
                >
                > What you can also do on the top of that is:
                > - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
                > - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
                >
                > Goodluck with completing your application.
                >
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > Radu
                > www.varspeedhydro.com
                >


              • tojoe999
                Thank you for your advice Radu. The ABB inverter really is 00-77-0400-390-5. It is a new ABB model that was developed for wind turbines. Wind turbines have a
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 24, 2012
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                  Thank you for your advice Radu.

                  The ABB inverter really is 00-77-0400-390-5. It is a new ABB model that was developed for wind turbines. Wind turbines have a much faster response than hydro turbines, hence the Profibus interface and not the Modbus interface. Profibus is a very fast interface with a deterministic response time. A Modbus interface is not available for the new ABB wind turbine inverter.

                  The PLC I have been looking at runs Windows CE.NET 5.0.
                  ( http://www.latin-tech.net/Winceplcs(e).htm )


                  I was hoping that Windows CE is less prone to freezing than regular Windows. The PLC comes with a watchdog circuit that resets the PLC if it freezes.

                  The advantage of a Windows based PLC is that I do not need to purchase PLC specific software ( e.g. http://www.isagraf.com/index.htm )

                  I could use standard software tools via Microsoft Visual Studio.

                  I could also use standard memory cards and standard Ethernet communications.

                  Tony M.



                  --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Tony,
                  >
                  >
                  > The indicated code of the ABB drive looks a bit strange to me, I guess it can either be ACS800-17-0390-3 (315 kW, 400 V) or ACS800-17-0400-5 (315 kW, 500 V). Pls. note that the ACS800 family has a Modbus interface (option module) called RMBA-01, which you can buy with ~200 EUR, to be plugged near or instead the existing Profibus RPBA-01 module.
                  >
                  > On the PLC, I would not use a Windows based PLC, because this operating system can jeopardize the stability of you application (source of program freeze). There are other non-PC based PLC's on the market which comes with similar development tools, to be accompanies with other SCADA application running on external TouchPanel, etc. (Windows or not Windows based - in this later case if Windows crashes, you reboot only the screen, not stop the turbine). Basically the bottom control layer (PLC gadgets) has to be as process direct as possible, with a minimal no. potential crash sources possible, while the upper control layer (SCADA+ communications - inherently complex) can crash more often, but won't disrupt the functionality of the bottom control layer.
                  >
                  >
                  > Happy Christmas !
                  >
                  > Radu
                  > www.varspeedhydro.com
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: tojoe999
                  > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:07 AM
                  > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Moulin De Aillevans, France
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you Radu.
                  >
                  > Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and the turbine hydraulics.
                  >
                  > The generator is a 200 kW Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) - water cooled. The draft tube is a Hydraucone.
                  >
                  > I am thinking of using a Windows based PLC (e.g. WP-8841-EN-G-CR ).
                  >
                  > Unfortunately the ABB inverter only uses the Profibus protocol.
                  >
                  > This means that I need a Modbus to Profibus gateway ( e.g. Mgate 4101-MB-PBS).
                  >
                  > I am also thinking of using Microsoft Visual Studio to develop the software, including the Maximum Power Point Tracking algorithm and displaying the performance data to a graphical User Interface.
                  >
                  > Tony M.
                  >
                  > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Tony,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Quite nice works done over there.
                  > >
                  > > I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
                  > >
                  > > No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
                  > >
                  > > What you can also do on the top of that is:
                  > > - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
                  > > - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
                  > >
                  > > Goodluck with completing your application.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Best regards,
                  > >
                  > > Radu
                  > > www.varspeedhydro.com
                  > >
                  >
                • tojoe999
                  Tony, Perhaps I can add a few captions to the photographs over the Christmas period. The scroll patterns on the stainless steel runner are vestiges of the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 24, 2012
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                    Tony,

                    Perhaps I can add a few captions to the photographs over the Christmas period.

                    The scroll patterns on the stainless steel runner are vestiges of the manufacturing process. I suspect that a worn polishing pad was used.

                    More photographs when the installation is complete.

                    The main bearing (hydrodynamic) and the directly coupled Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) have yet to be mounted.


                    Tony M.


                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Goffe" <tony@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Tony, this tony in Jamaica, .....that installation series was great ..only wish each photo had a short description..
                    >
                    > One thing : "JPG 08-11-2012 F" is a shot of the prop going in. On the polished blades may be seen a "scroll-type" pattern (made with a power toll of sorts ?) Does this have any practical function, or is it the efforts of some aspiring artist somewhere ??
                    >
                    > Thanks, tony goffe "FELIZ NAVIDAD" TO ALL THE GROUPIES ....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------
                    > From: "tojoe999" <tojoe999@...>
                    > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 3:59 PM
                    > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [microhydro] Re: Moulin De Aillevans, France
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you Radu.
                    >
                    > Can you or other members of this group recommend a PLC (Progtammable Logic Controller) to control the ABB inverter ( ACS800-77-0400-390-5) and the turbine hydraulics.
                    >
                    > The generator is a 200 kW Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) - water cooled. The draft tube is a Hydraucone.
                    >
                    > I am thinking of using a Windows based PLC (e.g. WP-8841-EN-G-CR ).
                    >
                    > Unfortunately the ABB inverter only uses the Profibus protocol.
                    >
                    > This means that I need a Modbus to Profibus gateway ( e.g. Mgate 4101-MB-PBS).
                    >
                    > I am also thinking of using Microsoft Visual Studio to develop the software, including the Maximum Power Point Tracking algorithm and displaying the performance data to a graphical User Interface.
                    >
                    > Tony M.
                    >
                    > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Radu Babau" <rbabau@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Tony,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Quite nice works done over there.
                    > >
                    > > I noticed that you have a 4Q frequency converter in the scope of supply, which brings an excellent degree of flexibility for your machine, since you can play with the speed the way you (and not the grid) wants.
                    > >
                    > > No doubt that you will try different combination of the wicket gate opening / turbine speed, trying to achieve the best machine efficiency. Our experience showed that sooner or later you will end up with a rather fixed wicket gate opening (for normal flow ranges), moving to the (efortless) speed control.
                    > >
                    > > What you can also do on the top of that is:
                    > > - permanently run the generator with optimised flux (a feature of ACS800 units form ABB), so that you will save some of the generator magnetic/electric losses, specially at partial loads;
                    > > - implement a simple automated speed variability cycle, which will permanently search for the nearest most optimal vicinity; say, every 2 minutes, the PLC will move the existing speed with +10 rpm, and check for the next minute if that point is a bit better than the previous; if not, then it comes back, making the next small trip to -10 rpm, etc.; this way, you may cope with slow / slight changes in the head / flow, etc., allowing your unit to self-adjust it's working point permanently to higher efficiency.
                    > >
                    > > Goodluck with completing your application.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Best regards,
                    > >
                    > > Radu
                    > > www.varspeedhydro.com
                    > >
                    >
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