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Re: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day

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  • Nando
    Dan: The good class inverters are natural for those battery banks -- because the intermediate voltage may be as high as 400 Vdc which is the voltage used by
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 30, 2011
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      Dan:

      The good class inverters are natural for those battery banks -- because the intermediate voltage may be as high as 400 Vdc which is the voltage used by many of those -- In the past I have given some boards of an UPS inverter that was easily coupled to that battery bank to produce the 10 KW + that the site required, the energy sources were solar panels and a small hydro high voltage.

      for your information, most large UPS may have the 400 Vdc battery bank.

      The Alternative energy inverters , often they convert from a low voltage like, 24, 48, 72 Volts dc to +200 Vdc and - 200 Vdc for the AC section inverter to produce the 120 Vac or 120 -0- 120 = 240 Vac with center tap.

      Charge balance seems to be complicated and from the point of view of many too complicated and expensive, but there are basic principles and techniques to check the battery balance to cell levels.

      Normally, when battery banks are assembled the charge capacity of each cell is tested and those with same capacity level are " married "

      Nando


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dan Fink
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 11:12
      Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day



      The big problems with lithium batteries, especially for off-grid and
      islanding grid tie applications, are:
      ~High price;
      ~Sophisticated, computerized battery management system (BMS) at cell
      or string level is required (expensive)
      ~Present BMS systems are for EVs, and do not interface with balance of
      system components such as MPPT charge controllers and inverters.

      Eventually, we will start seeing Lithium battery banks for home use.
      Tesla even touts that their packs will eventually be deployed at homes
      after they lose too much capacity for EV use. However, Tesla does not
      address the issues of BMS and balance of system at this time. There
      are no inverters, controllers, etc. on the PV systems market presently
      that can handle a high-voltage battery pack.

      --
      Dan Fink,
      Executive Director
      Buckville Energy Consulting
      Buckville Publications LLC
      NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
      970.672.4342 (voicemail)
      970.373.1311 (FAX)




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jrkess98@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/30/2011 5:17:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, les.newell@fastmail.co.uk writes: battery monitoring system. Lead acids are mostly self
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 30, 2011
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        In a message dated 9/30/2011 5:17:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        les.newell@... writes:

        battery monitoring system. Lead acids are mostly self
        balancing but lithiums need a monitor on every cell
        Just a related aside...
        Even though naval submarines use basic lead-acid Edison cells, they monitor
        each cell in a 230V (?) bank. They have installed in the boat MANY extra
        cells and can switch a given cell in or out of the series based on water
        consumption, temperature, relative amp-hours, and other factors. There is a
        very large electric panel to control this process. Further, they can
        drain, dismantle, and rebuild cells (to some extent) on-board, under way.
        Submarines have battery technology down to a SCIENCE, after nearly a century of
        diligence.
        John Kessler
        Ft. Lauderdale

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • HenryS
        Nando you have a very rich and fascinating history to your life. I suspected that you knew differently than what you were posting. My daughter traveled to
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 30, 2011
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          Nando you have a very rich and fascinating history to your life. I suspected that you knew differently than what you were posting.

          My daughter traveled to Costa Rica and told me about the mountain roads that you speak of. EVs are perfect for this because they have high torque at any RPM and then when you go down the other side you recharge and capture much of the energy you used going up. You can't do that with a ICE car or truck. I'm sure we will see them soon.

          Best regards,
          Henry


          --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
          >
          > Henry:
          >
          > I presume that you may have a Telsa am I right and if not what do you have
          > ?.
          >
          > Sorry but I am aware of the Telsa with such range, my error trying to be
          > short in my writing I did not explain the pure electric car as one that
          > could go from coast to coast and charging the batteries in a time close to
          > the time needed to "charge " = fill the gas tank.
          >
          > I would call the Telsa a pure electric with extended range for local use
          > presently limited to the charging source slow charge HOME system.
          >
          > I have played with electrical moving vehicle ( I added a car generator used
          > as a motor to drive my bike rear wheels with batteries on both sides of the
          > rear wheel ) so for me the idea of an electric car has been with me almost
          > the 80 % of my life .
          >
          > I assisted a couple of friends to do some electrical conversion of small car
          > , one of them a Tricycle from Italy with two people in tandem. I of them had
          > FerroNickel batteries that run for many years also, hydro recharged every
          > day .
          >
          > So I am not miss informed I was " Miss keyboard punching to be short " and
          > put my feet in my mouth !!
          >
          > ...
          > I have said for many years that the hydrocarbon oil should not be used for car fuel but for fertilizer production and for materials for human better living conditions ---
          >
          > Mother Nature knows best, and I see in the future the true use of the hydrogen as a source of energy ( here a bunch will say that hydrogen is the ash of a "burning " process and not a fuel ) -- but I insist in saying that once a method is discovered to separate the water into hydrogen and Oxygen the energy future would be, in a practical sense, unlimited energy source then fuel cells to produce the "long range pure electric car".
          >
          > Nando
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: HenryS
          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 21:15
          > Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
          > >...
          > > By the way, I do not see a pure electrical car in the near future because the problem of charging the battery bank to be able to have a practical range between charging cycles - unless the use of two cars , one for short range all electric and the second a hybrid for longer ranges.
          > >
          > > Nando
          > >
          >
          > While I agree with most of what you said about batteries in general, your comments about pure electric cars (EVs) are obsolete. I drive an EV that goes 245 miles (400+km) on a charge. I don't call that "short range". It is by far the most powerful, comfortable, and reliable car I have ever driven or owned. It has a better overall safety rating than the Toyota that it replaced. And it doesn't smell!
          >
          > How does this relate to micro-hydro? I can drive my car up to 15,000 mi per year (25,000km) with a 400 watt turbine running 24/7. That's not much hydro power to replace a lot of oil! Imagine if more people generated their power that way and drove an EV, not a hybrid.
          >
          > I don't blame you for being miss-informed. The oil industry does a good job of spreading fear and misinformation about EVs (and micro-hydro for that matter). Since you brought up range, it's very rare that you leave home and drive more than 100 or 200 miles before returning home again where you can recharge. Average in the USA is 40 miles (65km)/day. As an EV driver I certainly don't experience the range practicality problem you refer to.
          >
          > As Nando pointed out, prices for lithium batteries are falling and several factories with huge capacity are coming online over the next couple of years. They are less polluting than lead-acid and much lighter if you have to move them.
          >
          > Just be careful with lithium ion batteries! They will catch fire if not handled and used properly. I know people who keep them in a tank of water.
          >
          > -Henry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Nando
          Henry: Do you have a Telsa ?. Trying to be short and concise, it is very often an extremely difficulty process. Yes I am aware that the electric car can
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Henry:

            Do you have a Telsa ?.

            Trying to be short and concise, it is very often an extremely difficulty process.

            Yes I am aware that the electric car can harvest " down hill " energy by regulating the down hill speed .

            I am as well aware of the torque capabilities of the electric motors , still, since I am an engineer ( well, I was, since I am retired therefore the young generation thinks that at the moment of retirement our brains were emptied or the contents erased, poor of us retirees )

            Torque and RPM are married together therefore to have a certain torque , assuming a defined Horse Power the output RPM has stay high and the driving RPM has to be reduced to increase the Torque to be able to move the weight of the vehicle up a road = gear ratios are needed often.

            With an ICE, NO you can not Harvest the going down hill energy used to brake the vehicle, you have to take money out of your pocket and pay to have the brakes shoes replaced .

            Roads in Center and South America are improving dramatically since the governments have been able to collect more taxes to open new roads and improve them though there are , still today, many roads that are penetration roads instead of improved roads to allow the easy transport of goods and people.

            Then the Mother Nature Weather and her Son "EL Niño" that miss behave often producing land slides wiping out roads that may take several years to repair.

            Then there is Africa and Asia --


            Nando


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: HenryS
            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 01:10
            Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day





            Nando you have a very rich and fascinating history to your life. I suspected that you knew differently than what you were posting.

            My daughter traveled to Costa Rica and told me about the mountain roads that you speak of. EVs are perfect for this because they have high torque at any RPM and then when you go down the other side you recharge and capture much of the energy you used going up. You can't do that with a ICE car or truck. I'm sure we will see them soon.

            Best regards,
            Henry

            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
            >
            > Henry:
            >
            > I presume that you may have a Telsa am I right and if not what do you have
            > ?.
            >
            > Sorry but I am aware of the Telsa with such range, my error trying to be
            > short in my writing I did not explain the pure electric car as one that
            > could go from coast to coast and charging the batteries in a time close to
            > the time needed to "charge " = fill the gas tank.
            >
            > I would call the Telsa a pure electric with extended range for local use
            > presently limited to the charging source slow charge HOME system.
            >
            > I have played with electrical moving vehicle ( I added a car generator used
            > as a motor to drive my bike rear wheels with batteries on both sides of the
            > rear wheel ) so for me the idea of an electric car has been with me almost
            > the 80 % of my life .
            >
            > I assisted a couple of friends to do some electrical conversion of small car
            > , one of them a Tricycle from Italy with two people in tandem. I of them had
            > FerroNickel batteries that run for many years also, hydro recharged every
            > day .
            >
            > So I am not miss informed I was " Miss keyboard punching to be short " and
            > put my feet in my mouth !!
            >
            > ...
            > I have said for many years that the hydrocarbon oil should not be used for car fuel but for fertilizer production and for materials for human better living conditions ---
            >
            > Mother Nature knows best, and I see in the future the true use of the hydrogen as a source of energy ( here a bunch will say that hydrogen is the ash of a "burning " process and not a fuel ) -- but I insist in saying that once a method is discovered to separate the water into hydrogen and Oxygen the energy future would be, in a practical sense, unlimited energy source then fuel cells to produce the "long range pure electric car".
            >
            > Nando
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: HenryS
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 21:15
            > Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
            > >...
            > > By the way, I do not see a pure electrical car in the near future because the problem of charging the battery bank to be able to have a practical range between charging cycles - unless the use of two cars , one for short range all electric and the second a hybrid for longer ranges.
            > >
            > > Nando
            > >
            >
            > While I agree with most of what you said about batteries in general, your comments about pure electric cars (EVs) are obsolete. I drive an EV that goes 245 miles (400+km) on a charge. I don't call that "short range". It is by far the most powerful, comfortable, and reliable car I have ever driven or owned. It has a better overall safety rating than the Toyota that it replaced. And it doesn't smell!
            >
            > How does this relate to micro-hydro? I can drive my car up to 15,000 mi per year (25,000km) with a 400 watt turbine running 24/7. That's not much hydro power to replace a lot of oil! Imagine if more people generated their power that way and drove an EV, not a hybrid.
            >
            > I don't blame you for being miss-informed. The oil industry does a good job of spreading fear and misinformation about EVs (and micro-hydro for that matter). Since you brought up range, it's very rare that you leave home and drive more than 100 or 200 miles before returning home again where you can recharge. Average in the USA is 40 miles (65km)/day. As an EV driver I certainly don't experience the range practicality problem you refer to.
            >
            > As Nando pointed out, prices for lithium batteries are falling and several factories with huge capacity are coming online over the next couple of years. They are less polluting than lead-acid and much lighter if you have to move them.
            >
            > Just be careful with lithium ion batteries! They will catch fire if not handled and used properly. I know people who keep them in a tank of water.
            >
            > -Henry
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nando
            Henry: Adding to my message and in general concepts, the electric motors in cars if normally used on roads like in USA may not require a gear, but where there
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 3, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Henry:

              Adding to my message and in general concepts, the electric motors in cars if normally used on roads like in USA may not require a gear, but where there are very high inclines in areas of 20 % and also roads without concrete or asphalt layers the cars do require gear to multiple the necessity torque to move the vehicle up the inclined road.

              This is quite a fact all over the world.

              It seems that You have a Telsa - and your major problem may be the battery replacement - a some greasing of some joints -- heating in winter .

              A Telsa would be good for short rides done often specially in flat lands and then thinking on some of the streets in the City of San Francisco I would say that your car could not drive them up, down yes but not up with 30 degrees incline, place where I used to use when buying a car to make sure that there was enough engine torque available using the lowest gear .

              Those streets are located a few blocks away from South East corner of the Golden Gate park, close to the Hospital there , then down town area toward the Nob Hill.

              Steam Engine piston types are the ones that have the maximum power at Zero RPM -- the rest under certain conditions may require a gear box to be able to go up hill inclines.

              Nando




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nando
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 10:06
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day



              Henry:

              Do you have a Telsa ?.

              Trying to be short and concise, it is very often an extremely difficulty process.

              Yes I am aware that the electric car can harvest " down hill " energy by regulating the down hill speed .

              I am as well aware of the torque capabilities of the electric motors , still, since I am an engineer ( well, I was, since I am retired therefore the young generation thinks that at the moment of retirement our brains were emptied or the contents erased, poor of us retirees )

              Torque and RPM are married together therefore to have a certain torque , assuming a defined Horse Power the output RPM has stay high and the driving RPM has to be reduced to increase the Torque to be able to move the weight of the vehicle up a road = gear ratios are needed often.

              With an ICE, NO you can not Harvest the going down hill energy used to brake the vehicle, you have to take money out of your pocket and pay to have the brakes shoes replaced .

              Roads in Center and South America are improving dramatically since the governments have been able to collect more taxes to open new roads and improve them though there are , still today, many roads that are penetration roads instead of improved roads to allow the easy transport of goods and people.

              Then the Mother Nature Weather and her Son "EL Niño" that miss behave often producing land slides wiping out roads that may take several years to repair.

              Then there is Africa and Asia --

              Nando

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: HenryS
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 01:10
              Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day

              Nando you have a very rich and fascinating history to your life. I suspected that you knew differently than what you were posting.

              My daughter traveled to Costa Rica and told me about the mountain roads that you speak of. EVs are perfect for this because they have high torque at any RPM and then when you go down the other side you recharge and capture much of the energy you used going up. You can't do that with a ICE car or truck. I'm sure we will see them soon.

              Best regards,
              Henry

              --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
              >
              > Henry:
              >
              > I presume that you may have a Telsa am I right and if not what do you have
              > ?.
              >
              > Sorry but I am aware of the Telsa with such range, my error trying to be
              > short in my writing I did not explain the pure electric car as one that
              > could go from coast to coast and charging the batteries in a time close to
              > the time needed to "charge " = fill the gas tank.
              >
              > I would call the Telsa a pure electric with extended range for local use
              > presently limited to the charging source slow charge HOME system.
              >
              > I have played with electrical moving vehicle ( I added a car generator used
              > as a motor to drive my bike rear wheels with batteries on both sides of the
              > rear wheel ) so for me the idea of an electric car has been with me almost
              > the 80 % of my life .
              >
              > I assisted a couple of friends to do some electrical conversion of small car
              > , one of them a Tricycle from Italy with two people in tandem. I of them had
              > FerroNickel batteries that run for many years also, hydro recharged every
              > day .
              >
              > So I am not miss informed I was " Miss keyboard punching to be short " and
              > put my feet in my mouth !!
              >
              > ...
              > I have said for many years that the hydrocarbon oil should not be used for car fuel but for fertilizer production and for materials for human better living conditions ---
              >
              > Mother Nature knows best, and I see in the future the true use of the hydrogen as a source of energy ( here a bunch will say that hydrogen is the ash of a "burning " process and not a fuel ) -- but I insist in saying that once a method is discovered to separate the water into hydrogen and Oxygen the energy future would be, in a practical sense, unlimited energy source then fuel cells to produce the "long range pure electric car".
              >
              > Nando
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: HenryS
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 21:15
              > Subject: [microhydro] Re: And now for the stupid questions of the day
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
              > >...
              > > By the way, I do not see a pure electrical car in the near future because the problem of charging the battery bank to be able to have a practical range between charging cycles - unless the use of two cars , one for short range all electric and the second a hybrid for longer ranges.
              > >
              > > Nando
              > >
              >
              > While I agree with most of what you said about batteries in general, your comments about pure electric cars (EVs) are obsolete. I drive an EV that goes 245 miles (400+km) on a charge. I don't call that "short range". It is by far the most powerful, comfortable, and reliable car I have ever driven or owned. It has a better overall safety rating than the Toyota that it replaced. And it doesn't smell!
              >
              > How does this relate to micro-hydro? I can drive my car up to 15,000 mi per year (25,000km) with a 400 watt turbine running 24/7. That's not much hydro power to replace a lot of oil! Imagine if more people generated their power that way and drove an EV, not a hybrid.
              >
              > I don't blame you for being miss-informed. The oil industry does a good job of spreading fear and misinformation about EVs (and micro-hydro for that matter). Since you brought up range, it's very rare that you leave home and drive more than 100 or 200 miles before returning home again where you can recharge. Average in the USA is 40 miles (65km)/day. As an EV driver I certainly don't experience the range practicality problem you refer to.
              >
              > As Nando pointed out, prices for lithium batteries are falling and several factories with huge capacity are coming online over the next couple of years. They are less polluting than lead-acid and much lighter if you have to move them.
              >
              > Just be careful with lithium ion batteries! They will catch fire if not handled and used properly. I know people who keep them in a tank of water.
              >
              > -Henry
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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