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Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

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  • Nando
    ASHISH: What is your mechanical proficiency , also your electrical/electronic capabilities ?. For such head and to design a single turbine, it would be too
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 28, 2010
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      ASHISH:

      What is your mechanical proficiency , also your electrical/electronic capabilities ?.

      For such head and to design a single turbine, it would be too expensive either financially or time wise; also, You need to have the runner well balanced .

      You could use a Pelton or a Turgo, I suggest the Turgo because is easier to put together with an induction motor as a generator using biasing running capacitors -- and I strongly suggest to buy the Turgo Spoons, visit www.h-hydro.com where Joe Hartvigsen the owner can give you assistance with the spoons that he sells at a low cost and he may have the runner plate drawing to mount the spoons to.

      The Turgo spoons need to have a very good profile and shape to have a high efficiency turbine. and, as well, balance.

      For this reason alone I do not detail what the spoon shape and profile should be -- One needs to understand well how the water jet hits the spoon and how the spoon diverts the water to attain maximum torque harvesting .

      I have been asked numerous times to supply the spoon profile , in the many past years, and I have refrain from doing it for the reasons stated here.

      Nando


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ashish ghimire
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?



      Dear Nando:I am from Nepal. The site is in rural part of Nepal. The output power calculation I had also done. But I want is to design a turbine for the place by myself. So I need some guidance from you as how to proceed.I had surveyed and done the turbine selection before but had never designed a turbine by myself.
      The penstock length (inclination) is 243.5 m...

      --- On Mon, 12/27/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

      From: Nando <nando37@...>
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 3:34 PM



      ASHISH:

      I do not have software to do such calculations, the formulas are simple, so I have not developed any software package

      For me to tell you what you need , you need to give the proper information.

      Head = 121 meters

      Volume = 10 l/s

      Penstock length ?

      Water source conditions and seasonal variations.

      Where are you located ?.

      Basically the power available is 10 l/s * 121 meters * 6 - = 7.26 Kw this value may vary somewhat once the rest of the parameters are defined, to define as well the pipe diameter .

      This site is quite good for a Turgo Turbine and if the seasonal water changes is high the up to 4 Nozzles can the Turbine have without much problem. you will need an ELC= Electronic Level Controller to keep the generator output voltage level stable -- using resistive ballast that can be used to heat water for home use or home ambient warming if in a cold weather area.

      Nando

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: ashish ghimire

      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:56 PM

      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

      Dear Nando...I need to design a turbine for the

      discharge (m3/s)= 0.01Gross Head (m) = 121

      Do you have any soft ware for the turbine design...?Can you help me where to look for the designing????

      Lookin forward for your help.

      Best Regards:Ashish Ghimire

      --- On Wed, 12/22/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

      From: Nando <nando37@...>

      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

      Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010, 7:29 PM

      I would like to say to those that are trying to use the sewer pipe or like ---- Get a QUALITY PIPE -- this way your small hydro will last decades without pipe problems.

      Quality and sturdy is the rule

      Nando

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Ruth Richmond

      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 2:20 PM

      Subject: RE: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

      People have been talking about three types of sewer pipe. One is black

      inside and doesn't seal with pvc glue.

      Another is white and can be solid or perforated. It will seal with pvc glue.

      It is extremely thin wall and can become brittle with sunlight and cold. It

      may collapse from a blocked intake and shatter. It may break from a tree

      falling on it.

      The third type of pipe is what you originally asked about and has a gasket

      to seal the joints. It need to be restrained or glued to keep from popping

      apart. It is much thicker walled than the cheaper drain pipe. I estimate the

      wall thickness is the same as schedule 40 pipe. It is more available and

      lower cost than schedule 40 pvc pipe so it is the pipe I've used over the

      last 10 years on many hydro systems with less than 100 psi. The only time

      I've had a break was when a tree landed on an exposed section. Since it is

      pvc it does get degraded by sunlight over time. That is why I try to bury

      wherever possible. If it is under a tree canopy or in a dark canyon it

      should last many years on the surface. The pressure of 50 feet is well

      within it's capacity.

      The heavier pipe made from hdpe has to be fused together with heat. The tool

      to fuse the sections needs about 1000 watts. Usually a generator has to

      dragged out to the site to fuse the sections. Sometimes the pipe is fused at

      the top and then dragged into place. The pipe cost more than double the pvc

      gasket sewer pipe. But once in place it is much stronger and longer lasting.

      Chris

      -----Original Message-----

      From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On

      Behalf Of Matthew Hixson

      Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:41 PM

      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

      Hi Paul, no I am not going to bury this pipe. The ground here is too root

      filled. And the parts of the ground that don't have roots in it have

      boulder sized rocks. I intend to lay the penstock on the ground wherever

      possible, which is almost the entire distance. The head is about 50' and

      the length of the penstock is going to be about 320'.

      -M@

      On Dec 20, 2010, at 2:32 PM, rockwallaby@... wrote:

      > Hi Matthew,I had the very same questions when I built my system.Very

      > little information regarding the pressure ratings for this sort of pipe,

      > as it was not intended for pressurised systems, just free flowing you

      > know what!But I did manage to find somewhere on the web that it would

      > easily take the expected pressure of my site.

      > In my system, I used 4" or 100mm sewer pipe as my penstock. My static

      > head is 37 metres.It is all glued with the normal pipe glue and the the

      > complete 250 odd metre length is buried.It passes through the dam wall

      > of my small pond to extend some metres into the pond.At the bottom end I

      > have a size reduction, a shut-off gate valve, then I feed into standard

      > 2" or 50mm black poly pipe.It has been in service now for over ten

      > years, no problems.

      > The pipe you are referring to would be even better than I have I suspect

      > as it would have a thicker wall from memory.The only problem may be that

      > the pipe having a rubber seal, while great, may need locking so as to

      > not pop out over time.Will you bury the pipe?

      > Paul__________________________________________________________M\

      > atthew Hixson wrote:Has anyone used the type of sewer PVC that snaps

      > together for a penstock? What I'm talking about is available at my

      > local Lowes. It has a bell on one end and the pieces just fit together

      > with some force and there is some kind of seal inside that allows them

      > to lock together. I know sewer PVC pipe usually states that it is not

      > for pressurized use. What I'm wondering is whether or not 50 feet of

      > head counts as pressurized compared to the types of pressure that are

      > commonplace in water delivery systems from utility companies. Would I

      > be safe in using that type of pipe for my penstock or should I look at

      > something else?

      > Thanks-M@

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      >

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    • rockwallaby@ymail.com
      Hello Ashish, Could you please start a new thread with your questions, as your question has nothing to do with 6 sewer PVC. Once you have started a new thread
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 30, 2010
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        Hello Ashish,
        Could you please start a new thread with your questions, as your
        question has nothing to do with 6" sewer PVC. Once you have started a
        new thread topic Ashish, I will support Nando's request that you will
        need to provide full information before asking for assistance.
        When providing assistance, we can not and will not make guesses. I
        believe Nando is very experienced and provides a lot of his personal
        time to helping people on this group, but can understand his frustration
        when presented with so little information and then asked for help!
        I can fully understand his frustration.
        Firstly, introduce yourself, is your name Ashish?
        So, to summarise:Please, could people stop using this thread for other
        posts other than the original poster's question.
        Paul Alting van Geusau
        ________________________________________________________________________\
        _____________________________________
        ashish ghimire wrote:
        Dear Nando:I am from Nepal. The site is in rural part of Nepal.The
        output power calculation I had also done.But I want is to design a
        turbine for the place by myself.So I need some guidance from you as how
        to proceed.I had surveyed and done the turbine selection before but had
        never designed a turbine by myself.
        The penstock length (inclination) is 243.5 m...




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ashish ghimire
        Dear Nando: I am from Nepal. The site is in rural part of Nepal. The output power calculation I had also done. But I want is to design a turbine for the place
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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          Dear Nando:
          I am from Nepal. The site is in rural part of Nepal. The output power calculation I had also done. But I want is to design a turbine for the place by myself. So I need some guidance from you as how to proceed.
          I had surveyed and done the turbine selection before but had never designed a turbine by myself.

          The penstock length (inclination) is 243.5 m...

          Happy New Year 2011 ...


          --- On Mon, 12/27/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

          From: Nando <nando37@...>
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 3:34 PM
















           









          ASHISH:



          I do not have software to do such calculations, the formulas are simple, so I have not developed any software package



          For me to tell you what you need , you need to give the proper information.



          Head = 121 meters

          Volume = 10 l/s

          Penstock length ?

          Water source conditions and seasonal variations.



          Where are you located ?.



          Basically the power available is 10 l/s * 121 meters * 6 - = 7.26 Kw this value may vary somewhat once the rest of the parameters are defined, to define as well the pipe diameter .



          This site is quite good for a Turgo Turbine and if the seasonal water changes is high the up to 4 Nozzles can the Turbine have without much problem. you will need an ELC= Electronic Level Controller to keep the generator output voltage level stable -- using resistive ballast that can be used to heat water for home use or home ambient warming if in a cold weather area.



          Nando



          ----- Original Message -----

          From: ashish ghimire

          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:56 PM

          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?



          Dear Nando...I need to design a turbine for the

          discharge (m3/s)= 0.01Gross Head (m) = 121

          Do you have any soft ware for the turbine design...?Can you help me where to look for the designing????

          Lookin forward for your help.



          Best Regards:Ashish Ghimire

          --- On Wed, 12/22/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:



          From: Nando <nando37@...>

          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?

          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

          Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010, 7:29 PM



          I would like to say to those that are trying to use the sewer pipe or like ---- Get a QUALITY PIPE -- this way your small hydro will last decades without pipe problems.



          Quality and sturdy is the rule



          Nando



          ----- Original Message -----



          From: Ruth Richmond



          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com



          Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 2:20 PM



          Subject: RE: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?



          People have been talking about three types of sewer pipe. One is black



          inside and doesn't seal with pvc glue.



          Another is white and can be solid or perforated. It will seal with pvc glue.



          It is extremely thin wall and can become brittle with sunlight and cold. It



          may collapse from a blocked intake and shatter. It may break from a tree



          falling on it.



          The third type of pipe is what you originally asked about and has a gasket



          to seal the joints. It need to be restrained or glued to keep from popping



          apart. It is much thicker walled than the cheaper drain pipe. I estimate the



          wall thickness is the same as schedule 40 pipe. It is more available and



          lower cost than schedule 40 pvc pipe so it is the pipe I've used over the



          last 10 years on many hydro systems with less than 100 psi. The only time



          I've had a break was when a tree landed on an exposed section. Since it is



          pvc it does get degraded by sunlight over time. That is why I try to bury



          wherever possible. If it is under a tree canopy or in a dark canyon it



          should last many years on the surface. The pressure of 50 feet is well



          within it's capacity.



          The heavier pipe made from hdpe has to be fused together with heat. The tool



          to fuse the sections needs about 1000 watts. Usually a generator has to



          dragged out to the site to fuse the sections. Sometimes the pipe is fused at



          the top and then dragged into place. The pipe cost more than double the pvc



          gasket sewer pipe. But once in place it is much stronger and longer lasting.



          Chris



          -----Original Message-----



          From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On



          Behalf Of Matthew Hixson



          Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:41 PM



          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com



          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: using 6" sewer PVC as penstock?



          Hi Paul, no I am not going to bury this pipe. The ground here is too root



          filled. And the parts of the ground that don't have roots in it have



          boulder sized rocks. I intend to lay the penstock on the ground wherever



          possible, which is almost the entire distance. The head is about 50' and



          the length of the penstock is going to be about 320'.



          -M@



          On Dec 20, 2010, at 2:32 PM, rockwallaby@... wrote:



          > Hi Matthew,I had the very same questions when I built my system.Very



          > little information regarding the pressure ratings for this sort of pipe,



          > as it was not intended for pressurised systems, just free flowing you



          > know what!But I did manage to find somewhere on the web that it would



          > easily take the expected pressure of my site.



          > In my system, I used 4" or 100mm sewer pipe as my penstock. My static



          > head is 37 metres.It is all glued with the normal pipe glue and the the



          > complete 250 odd metre length is buried.It passes through the dam wall



          > of my small pond to extend some metres into the pond.At the bottom end I



          > have a size reduction, a shut-off gate valve, then I feed into standard



          > 2" or 50mm black poly pipe.It has been in service now for over ten



          > years, no problems.



          > The pipe you are referring to would be even better than I have I suspect



          > as it would have a thicker wall from memory.The only problem may be that



          > the pipe having a rubber seal, while great, may need locking so as to



          > not pop out over time.Will you bury the pipe?



          > Paul__________________________________________________________M\



          > atthew Hixson wrote:Has anyone used the type of sewer PVC that snaps



          > together for a penstock? What I'm talking about is available at my



          > local Lowes. It has a bell on one end and the pieces just fit together



          > with some force and there is some kind of seal inside that allows them



          > to lock together. I know sewer PVC pipe usually states that it is not



          > for pressurized use. What I'm wondering is whether or not 50 feet of



          > head counts as pressurized compared to the types of pressure that are



          > commonplace in water delivery systems from utility companies. Would I



          > be safe in using that type of pipe for my penstock or should I look at



          > something else?



          > Thanks-M@



          >



          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          >



          >



          ------------------------------------



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          http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of



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          NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides



          us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse



          products or support the advertisements in any way.



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          To unsubscribe: send empty message to



          microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links



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