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Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

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  • Steve Spence
    Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped as you described for 120vac per leg. Steve Spence Renewable energy and self sufficiency
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 31, 2010
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      Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
      as you described for 120vac per leg.

      Steve Spence
      Renewable energy and self sufficiency
      http://www.green-trust.org
      http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/



      On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
      >
      >
      > Obi:
      >
      > Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
      > more accuracy !!
      >
      > What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
      >
      > The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
      > , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
      > sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
      >
      > You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
      > voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
      > have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
      >
      > By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
      > the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
      > apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
      >
      > The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
      > the cost of the hydro.
      >
      > Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
      >
      > Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
      >
      > 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
      > fish is present. - ???
      >
      > Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
      > capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
      > The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
      > avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
      > manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
      > that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
      > protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
      >
      > Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
      > cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
      > fuel basic cost .
      >
      > Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
      > hydro power for the community .
      >
      > If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
      > the harvested power .
      >
      > In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
      > the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
      > seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
      >
      > This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
      > capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
      > controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
      > order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
      > leave the third for expansion.
      >
      > I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
      > peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
      > though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
      > winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
      > underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
      >
      > This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
      > anymore.
      >
      > Do please keep us informed
      >
      > Nando
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
      > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
      >
      > 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
      > winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
      > however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
      > community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
      > in winter then build in summer.
      >
      > 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
      >
      > 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
      > package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
      > downtime due to maintenance.
      >
      > 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
      > country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
      >
      > 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
      > the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
      > draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
      > equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
      > cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
      > say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
      > with some standby ones?
      >
      > Thanks for input Nando
      >
      > Obi
      >
      > P.S. Info I should have added before
      > Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
      > Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
      > Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
      >
      > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Obi:
      >>
      >> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
      > heavy equipment --
      >>
      >> What % of the river can be used ?.
      >>
      >> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
      > though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
      > produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
      > additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
      > say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
      > winter to produced the top power needed.
      >>
      >> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
      > you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
      > busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
      > info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
      >>
      >> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
      > with an attachment for you to peruse.
      >>
      >> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
      > or use and maintenance .
      >>
      >> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
      > several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
      > could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
      > itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
      > quote for the equipment .
      >>
      >> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
      > now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
      > voltage parameters .
      >>
      >> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
      > the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
      > hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
      > power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
      > the down peak values with the ELC system.
      >>
      >> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
      > -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
      >>
      >> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
      > depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
      >>
      >> Nando
      >>
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: gandor13@...
      >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
      >> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Hello All
      >>
      >> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
      > hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
      > Here is the basic info of the project.
      >>
      >> Community:
      >> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
      >> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
      >> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
      > demand at any one time.
      >>
      >> Resource:
      >> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
      > forest/lakes) from the community
      >> Head: 17m
      >> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
      >> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
      > water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
      > with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
      > through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
      > 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
      > flow duration curve.
      >>
      >> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
      > application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
      > or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
      >>
      >> My questions are:
      >>
      >> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
      > looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
      > to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
      > compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
      > but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
      > and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
      > request a custom made governor?
      >>
      >> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
      > even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
      > community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
      > baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
      > rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
      > community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
      > correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
      > over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
      > generators cannot do that.
      >>
      >> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
      > meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
      > (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
      > not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
      > a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
      > switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
      > and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
      > such things.
      >>
      >> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
      >>
      >> Obi
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • SUSAN OLARTE
      Dear All The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down Transformer to 220 or 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 1, 2010
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        Dear All

        The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
        Transformer to 220 or
        110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility

        From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator Manufacturer
        responsibility )



        Art

        On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
        > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
        > as you described for 120vac per leg.
        >
        > Steve Spence
        > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
        > http://www.green-trust.org
        > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
        >
        >
        >
        > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >> Obi:
        >>
        >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
        >> more accuracy !!
        >>
        >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
        >>
        >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
        >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
        >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
        >>
        >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
        >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
        >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
        >>
        >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
        >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
        >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
        >>
        >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
        >> the cost of the hydro.
        >>
        >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
        >>
        >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
        >>
        >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
        >> fish is present. - ???
        >>
        >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
        >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
        >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
        >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
        >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
        >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
        >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
        >>
        >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
        >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
        >> fuel basic cost .
        >>
        >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
        >> hydro power for the community .
        >>
        >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
        >> the harvested power .
        >>
        >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
        >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
        >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
        >>
        >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
        >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
        >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
        >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
        >> leave the third for expansion.
        >>
        >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
        >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
        >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
        >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
        >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
        >>
        >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
        >> anymore.
        >>
        >> Do please keep us informed
        >>
        >> Nando
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
        >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
        >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
        >>
        >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
        >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
        >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
        >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
        >> in winter then build in summer.
        >>
        >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
        >>
        >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
        >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
        >> downtime due to maintenance.
        >>
        >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
        >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
        >>
        >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
        >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
        >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
        >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
        >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
        >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
        >> with some standby ones?
        >>
        >> Thanks for input Nando
        >>
        >> Obi
        >>
        >> P.S. Info I should have added before
        >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
        >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
        >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
        >>
        >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
        >> "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
        >>>
        >>> Obi:
        >>>
        >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
        >> heavy equipment --
        >>>
        >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
        >>>
        >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
        >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
        >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
        >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
        >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
        >> winter to produced the top power needed.
        >>>
        >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
        >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
        >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
        >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
        >>>
        >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
        >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
        >>>
        >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
        >> or use and maintenance .
        >>>
        >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
        >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
        >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
        >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
        >> quote for the equipment .
        >>>
        >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
        >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
        >> voltage parameters .
        >>>
        >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
        >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
        >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
        >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
        >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
        >>>
        >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
        >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
        >>>
        >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
        >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
        >>>
        >>> Nando
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> From: gandor13@...
        >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
        >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Hello All
        >>>
        >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
        >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
        >> Here is the basic info of the project.
        >>>
        >>> Community:
        >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
        >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
        >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
        >> demand at any one time.
        >>>
        >>> Resource:
        >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
        >> forest/lakes) from the community
        >>> Head: 17m
        >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
        >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
        >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
        >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
        >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
        >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
        >> flow duration curve.
        >>>
        >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
        >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
        >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
        >>>
        >>> My questions are:
        >>>
        >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
        >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
        >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
        >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
        >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
        >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
        >> request a custom made governor?
        >>>
        >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
        >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
        >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
        >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
        >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
        >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
        >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
        >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
        >> generators cannot do that.
        >>>
        >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
        >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
        >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
        >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
        >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
        >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
        >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
        >> such things.
        >>>
        >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
        >>>
        >>> Obi
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
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      • Nando
        Art: The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the delivered voltage
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 1, 2010
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          Art:

          The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to the long transmission power lines.

          The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage losses due to the long transmission line,

          that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum power generation --

          Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission lines with the up/down conversion.

          Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines

          The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .

          Nando



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: SUSAN OLARTE
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project



          Dear All

          The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
          Transformer to 220 or
          110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility

          From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator Manufacturer
          responsibility )

          Art

          On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
          > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
          > as you described for 120vac per leg.
          >
          > Steve Spence
          > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
          > http://www.green-trust.org
          > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
          >
          >
          >
          > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >> Obi:
          >>
          >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
          >> more accuracy !!
          >>
          >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
          >>
          >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
          >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
          >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
          >>
          >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
          >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
          >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
          >>
          >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
          >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
          >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
          >>
          >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
          >> the cost of the hydro.
          >>
          >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
          >>
          >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
          >>
          >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
          >> fish is present. - ???
          >>
          >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
          >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
          >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
          >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
          >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
          >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
          >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
          >>
          >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
          >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
          >> fuel basic cost .
          >>
          >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
          >> hydro power for the community .
          >>
          >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
          >> the harvested power .
          >>
          >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
          >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
          >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
          >>
          >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
          >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
          >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
          >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
          >> leave the third for expansion.
          >>
          >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
          >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
          >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
          >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
          >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
          >>
          >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
          >> anymore.
          >>
          >> Do please keep us informed
          >>
          >> Nando
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
          >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
          >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
          >>
          >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
          >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
          >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
          >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
          >> in winter then build in summer.
          >>
          >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
          >>
          >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
          >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
          >> downtime due to maintenance.
          >>
          >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
          >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
          >>
          >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
          >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
          >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
          >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
          >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
          >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
          >> with some standby ones?
          >>
          >> Thanks for input Nando
          >>
          >> Obi
          >>
          >> P.S. Info I should have added before
          >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
          >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
          >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
          >>
          >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
          >> "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>> Obi:
          >>>
          >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
          >> heavy equipment --
          >>>
          >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
          >>>
          >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
          >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
          >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
          >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
          >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
          >> winter to produced the top power needed.
          >>>
          >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
          >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
          >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
          >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
          >>>
          >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
          >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
          >>>
          >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
          >> or use and maintenance .
          >>>
          >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
          >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
          >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
          >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
          >> quote for the equipment .
          >>>
          >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
          >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
          >> voltage parameters .
          >>>
          >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
          >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
          >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
          >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
          >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
          >>>
          >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
          >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
          >>>
          >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
          >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
          >>>
          >>> Nando
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ----- Original Message -----
          >>> From: gandor13@...
          >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
          >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
          >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Hello All
          >>>
          >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
          >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
          >> Here is the basic info of the project.
          >>>
          >>> Community:
          >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
          >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
          >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
          >> demand at any one time.
          >>>
          >>> Resource:
          >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
          >> forest/lakes) from the community
          >>> Head: 17m
          >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
          >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
          >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
          >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
          >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
          >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
          >> flow duration curve.
          >>>
          >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
          >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
          >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
          >>>
          >>> My questions are:
          >>>
          >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
          >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
          >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
          >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
          >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
          >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
          >> request a custom made governor?
          >>>
          >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
          >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
          >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
          >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
          >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
          >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
          >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
          >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
          >> generators cannot do that.
          >>>
          >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
          >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
          >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
          >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
          >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
          >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
          >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
          >> such things.
          >>>
          >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
          >>>
          >>> Obi
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
          > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
          > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
          >
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          > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
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          >
          > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • gandor13@rogers.com
          Hey Nando My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So I ll try and clear up confusion now. The project is a
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 1, 2010
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            Hey Nando

            My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So I'll try and clear up confusion now.

            The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force as cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is. From the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access in the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to the site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part of the scheme before any equipment got there.

            Dam Site:
            Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
            Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from pictures only!)
            The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The longest stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km... it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.

            Structure:
            This is still in place from the previous operation.
            Concrete dam, 5mx30m
            3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
            Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
            150m long canal from headpond

            Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is chosen.

            Extra Details:
            Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the least 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.

            Proposed Systems:
            ONE 900kW package
            or
            Two 1100kW & 1200kW package

            Construction Repairs:
            Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
            Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
            Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??

            Electromechanical
            Penstock Replacement $$/??
            Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
            Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
            Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??

            Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be done to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who have worked on similar projects in the past.

            Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking into consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close to main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum baseline.

            Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?

            @ Nando
            Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them is the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some diesel consumption is the priority.

            Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible. Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good place for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an update.




            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
            >
            > Art:
            >
            > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to the long transmission power lines.
            >
            > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage losses due to the long transmission line,
            >
            > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum power generation --
            >
            > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission lines with the up/down conversion.
            >
            > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
            >
            > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
            >
            > Nando
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: SUSAN OLARTE
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear All
            >
            > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
            > Transformer to 220 or
            > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
            >
            > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator Manufacturer
            > responsibility )
            >
            > Art
            >
            > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
            > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
            > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
            > >
            > > Steve Spence
            > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
            > > http://www.green-trust.org
            > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Obi:
            > >>
            > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
            > >> more accuracy !!
            > >>
            > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
            > >>
            > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
            > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
            > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
            > >>
            > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
            > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
            > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
            > >>
            > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
            > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
            > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
            > >>
            > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
            > >> the cost of the hydro.
            > >>
            > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
            > >>
            > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
            > >>
            > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
            > >> fish is present. - ???
            > >>
            > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
            > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
            > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
            > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
            > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
            > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
            > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
            > >>
            > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
            > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
            > >> fuel basic cost .
            > >>
            > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
            > >> hydro power for the community .
            > >>
            > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
            > >> the harvested power .
            > >>
            > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
            > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
            > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
            > >>
            > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
            > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
            > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
            > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
            > >> leave the third for expansion.
            > >>
            > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
            > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
            > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
            > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
            > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
            > >>
            > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
            > >> anymore.
            > >>
            > >> Do please keep us informed
            > >>
            > >> Nando
            > >>
            > >> ----- Original Message -----
            > >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
            > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
            > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
            > >>
            > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
            > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
            > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
            > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
            > >> in winter then build in summer.
            > >>
            > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
            > >>
            > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
            > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
            > >> downtime due to maintenance.
            > >>
            > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
            > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
            > >>
            > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
            > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
            > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
            > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
            > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
            > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
            > >> with some standby ones?
            > >>
            > >> Thanks for input Nando
            > >>
            > >> Obi
            > >>
            > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
            > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
            > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
            > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
            > >>
            > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
            > >>>
            > >>> Obi:
            > >>>
            > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
            > >> heavy equipment --
            > >>>
            > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
            > >>>
            > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
            > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
            > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
            > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
            > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
            > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
            > >>>
            > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
            > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
            > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
            > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
            > >>>
            > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
            > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
            > >>>
            > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
            > >> or use and maintenance .
            > >>>
            > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
            > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
            > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
            > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
            > >> quote for the equipment .
            > >>>
            > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
            > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
            > >> voltage parameters .
            > >>>
            > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
            > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
            > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
            > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
            > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
            > >>>
            > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
            > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
            > >>>
            > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
            > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
            > >>>
            > >>> Nando
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> ----- Original Message -----
            > >>> From: gandor13@
            > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
            > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> Hello All
            > >>>
            > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
            > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
            > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
            > >>>
            > >>> Community:
            > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
            > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
            > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
            > >> demand at any one time.
            > >>>
            > >>> Resource:
            > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
            > >> forest/lakes) from the community
            > >>> Head: 17m
            > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
            > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
            > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
            > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
            > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
            > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
            > >> flow duration curve.
            > >>>
            > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
            > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
            > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
            > >>>
            > >>> My questions are:
            > >>>
            > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
            > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
            > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
            > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
            > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
            > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
            > >> request a custom made governor?
            > >>>
            > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
            > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
            > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
            > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
            > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
            > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
            > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
            > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
            > >> generators cannot do that.
            > >>>
            > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
            > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
            > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
            > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
            > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
            > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
            > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
            > >> such things.
            > >>>
            > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
            > >>>
            > >>> Obi
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>>
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
            > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
            > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
            > >
            > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
            > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
            > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
            > >
            > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
            > > microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Nando
            Obi: I understood when you said remote area, in Canada and how the transport is , via frozen roads in winter and airplane for the rest and isolation during the
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 1, 2010
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              Obi:

              I understood when you said remote area, in Canada and how the transport is , via frozen roads in winter and airplane for the rest and isolation during the winter.

              You did not report the site past capabilities -- I think that is needed to have.

              I may start by saying the turbine in the 1000 KW = 1 MW is in the areas of 500 - 750 $/Kw -- the remoteness of the dam and the isolation does demand maximizing the design with goals with remote control and as well in site personnel control .

              In addition the need to have excess equipment, this, if lack of spare power and parts may have been one of the problems with those sites long term that may have caused that they are not longer maintained and forgotten,

              Under Water power transmission is now a matured system and some countries are looking to supply power to some of the islands in the Caribbean some 500 - 900 + KM away to reduce the use of carbon fuels and going green.


              The restoration is going to be as costly as building a new one if the site has been forgotten for several years.

              Suggestion of repairs costs is not possible because there are too many factors not included in your message that was so simple that the replies were directed that way.

              You are still insisting in the power levels that are borderline and no inclusion of excess power needed to be generated to compensate the transmission losses .

              Also, one thing that you may forget, the site may require an emergency hydro generator around 100 or so KW in case of needing to shut down all the turbines .

              The idea of having extra power generation capabilities is a necessity for such remote site -- the cost is low if it is done well -- and the added cost of the new extra future turbine and generator to be connected to the common panel control ( designed to have the extra turbine ) some years later, and the addition will be easy and less costly or very expensive if such arrangement is not done initially.

              This micro hydro group seems that does not have members with large hydro industrial installation or at least non want to come out of the closet and mine experience is now too old to be efficient and practical.

              Good luck and let us know about it.

              Nando



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: gandor13@...
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:18 PM
              Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project



              Hey Nando

              My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So I'll try and clear up confusion now.

              The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force as cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is. From the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access in the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to the site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part of the scheme before any equipment got there.

              Dam Site:
              Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
              Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from pictures only!)
              The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The longest stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km... it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.

              Structure:
              This is still in place from the previous operation.
              Concrete dam, 5mx30m
              3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
              Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
              150m long canal from headpond

              Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is chosen.

              Extra Details:
              Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the least 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.

              Proposed Systems:
              ONE 900kW package
              or
              Two 1100kW & 1200kW package

              Construction Repairs:
              Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
              Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
              Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??

              Electromechanical
              Penstock Replacement $$/??
              Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
              Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
              Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??

              Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be done to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who have worked on similar projects in the past.

              Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking into consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close to main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum baseline.

              Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?

              @ Nando
              Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them is the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some diesel consumption is the priority.

              Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible. Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good place for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an update.

              --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
              >
              > Art:
              >
              > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to the long transmission power lines.
              >
              > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage losses due to the long transmission line,
              >
              > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum power generation --
              >
              > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission lines with the up/down conversion.
              >
              > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
              >
              > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
              >
              > Nando
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: SUSAN OLARTE
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear All
              >
              > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
              > Transformer to 220 or
              > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
              >
              > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator Manufacturer
              > responsibility )
              >
              > Art
              >
              > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
              > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
              > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
              > >
              > > Steve Spence
              > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
              > > http://www.green-trust.org
              > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Obi:
              > >>
              > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
              > >> more accuracy !!
              > >>
              > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
              > >>
              > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
              > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
              > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
              > >>
              > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
              > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
              > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
              > >>
              > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
              > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
              > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
              > >>
              > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
              > >> the cost of the hydro.
              > >>
              > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
              > >>
              > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
              > >>
              > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
              > >> fish is present. - ???
              > >>
              > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
              > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
              > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
              > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
              > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
              > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
              > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
              > >>
              > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
              > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
              > >> fuel basic cost .
              > >>
              > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
              > >> hydro power for the community .
              > >>
              > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
              > >> the harvested power .
              > >>
              > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
              > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
              > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
              > >>
              > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
              > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
              > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
              > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
              > >> leave the third for expansion.
              > >>
              > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
              > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
              > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
              > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
              > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
              > >>
              > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
              > >> anymore.
              > >>
              > >> Do please keep us informed
              > >>
              > >> Nando
              > >>
              > >> ----- Original Message -----
              > >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
              > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
              > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
              > >>
              > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
              > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
              > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
              > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
              > >> in winter then build in summer.
              > >>
              > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
              > >>
              > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
              > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
              > >> downtime due to maintenance.
              > >>
              > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
              > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
              > >>
              > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
              > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
              > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
              > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
              > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
              > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
              > >> with some standby ones?
              > >>
              > >> Thanks for input Nando
              > >>
              > >> Obi
              > >>
              > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
              > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
              > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
              > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
              > >>
              > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
              > >>>
              > >>> Obi:
              > >>>
              > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
              > >> heavy equipment --
              > >>>
              > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
              > >>>
              > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
              > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
              > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
              > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
              > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
              > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
              > >>>
              > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
              > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
              > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
              > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
              > >>>
              > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
              > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
              > >>>
              > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
              > >> or use and maintenance .
              > >>>
              > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
              > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
              > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
              > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
              > >> quote for the equipment .
              > >>>
              > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
              > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
              > >> voltage parameters .
              > >>>
              > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
              > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
              > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
              > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
              > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
              > >>>
              > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
              > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
              > >>>
              > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
              > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
              > >>>
              > >>> Nando
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> ----- Original Message -----
              > >>> From: gandor13@
              > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
              > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> Hello All
              > >>>
              > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
              > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
              > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
              > >>>
              > >>> Community:
              > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
              > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
              > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
              > >> demand at any one time.
              > >>>
              > >>> Resource:
              > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
              > >> forest/lakes) from the community
              > >>> Head: 17m
              > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
              > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
              > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
              > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
              > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
              > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
              > >> flow duration curve.
              > >>>
              > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
              > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
              > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
              > >>>
              > >>> My questions are:
              > >>>
              > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
              > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
              > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
              > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
              > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
              > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
              > >> request a custom made governor?
              > >>>
              > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
              > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
              > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
              > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
              > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
              > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
              > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
              > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
              > >> generators cannot do that.
              > >>>
              > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
              > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
              > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
              > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
              > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
              > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
              > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
              > >> such things.
              > >>>
              > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
              > >>>
              > >>> Obi
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
              > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
              > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
              > >
              > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides
              > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
              > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
              > >
              > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
              > > microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rita M. Rodríguez C.
              Hi Art: I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but you keep exchanging information with some fellows from our group. I´m not against
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 5, 2010
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Art:

                I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but you keep
                exchanging information with some fellows from our group.

                I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about certain
                items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really serious.
                You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going to
                receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in a
                remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study with a
                person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the way
                you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate, cost
                effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.

                This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                harming any group mate.

                I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM equipment
                from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality equipment
                for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting; so do
                not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.

                Good luck,

                Angel





                From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of gandor13@...
                Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project





                Hey Nando

                My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So
                I'll try and clear up confusion now.

                The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force as
                cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are
                'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is. From
                the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access in
                the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to the
                site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part of
                the scheme before any equipment got there.

                Dam Site:
                Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                pictures only!)
                The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited
                area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The longest
                stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km...
                it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.

                Structure:
                This is still in place from the previous operation.
                Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                150m long canal from headpond

                Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have
                to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is
                chosen.

                Extra Details:
                Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the least
                500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route
                avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.

                Proposed Systems:
                ONE 900kW package
                or
                Two 1100kW & 1200kW package

                Construction Repairs:
                Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??

                Electromechanical
                Penstock Replacement $$/??
                Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??

                Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be done
                to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on
                the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who have
                worked on similar projects in the past.

                Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking into
                consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints
                (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close to
                main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum
                baseline.

                Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand
                that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?

                @ Nando
                Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be
                agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra
                turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them is
                the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some diesel
                consumption is the priority.

                Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible.
                Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good place
                for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an
                update.

                --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                >
                > Art:
                >
                > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of
                varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all
                this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to
                the long transmission power lines.
                >
                > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step
                up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single
                community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done
                by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator
                voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage
                losses due to the long transmission line,
                >
                > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy
                diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum
                power generation --
                >
                > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission
                lines with the up/down conversion.
                >
                > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more
                to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
                >
                > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac
                with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations
                from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some
                places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                >
                > Nando
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear All
                >
                > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                > Transformer to 220 or
                > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                >
                > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                Manufacturer
                > responsibility )
                >
                > Art
                >
                > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
                > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                > >
                > > Steve Spence
                > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                > > http://www.green-trust.org
                > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Obi:
                > >>
                > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
                > >> more accuracy !!
                > >>
                > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                > >>
                > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                120-0-120)
                > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
                > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                > >>
                > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
                > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
                > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                > >>
                > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
                > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
                > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                > >>
                > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
                > >> the cost of the hydro.
                > >>
                > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                > >>
                > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                > >>
                > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
                > >> fish is present. - ???
                > >>
                > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
                > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
                > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
                > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
                > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried
                to
                > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                > >>
                > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase
                the
                > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
                > >> fuel basic cost .
                > >>
                > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
                > >> hydro power for the community .
                > >>
                > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
                > >> the harvested power .
                > >>
                > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel
                and
                > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                > >>
                > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to
                have
                > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
                > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
                > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
                > >> leave the third for expansion.
                > >>
                > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
                > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
                > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
                > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                > >>
                > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
                > >> anymore.
                > >>
                > >> Do please keep us informed
                > >>
                > >> Nando
                > >>
                > >> ----- Original Message -----
                > >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                > >>
                > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
                > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
                > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
                > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
                > >> in winter then build in summer.
                > >>
                > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                > >>
                > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
                > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                > >>
                > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
                > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                > >>
                > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand
                of
                > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
                > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
                > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would
                be
                > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
                > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
                > >> with some standby ones?
                > >>
                > >> Thanks for input Nando
                > >>
                > >> Obi
                > >>
                > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                > >>
                > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                > >>>
                > >>> Obi:
                > >>>
                > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
                > >> heavy equipment --
                > >>>
                > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                > >>>
                > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
                > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
                > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
                > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                during
                > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                > >>>
                > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
                > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
                > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
                > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                > >>>
                > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
                > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                > >>>
                > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
                > >> or use and maintenance .
                > >>>
                > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
                > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
                > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
                > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
                > >> quote for the equipment .
                > >>>
                > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
                > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
                > >> voltage parameters .
                > >>>
                > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
                > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
                > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
                > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                > >>>
                > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
                > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                > >>>
                > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
                > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
                > >>>
                > >>> Nando
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                > >>> From: gandor13@
                > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> Hello All
                > >>>
                > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
                > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                > >>>
                > >>> Community:
                > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
                > >> demand at any one time.
                > >>>
                > >>> Resource:
                > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
                > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                > >>> Head: 17m
                > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
                > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
                > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily
                flow
                > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
                > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
                > >> flow duration curve.
                > >>>
                > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                (gearbox
                > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
                > >>>
                > >>> My questions are:
                > >>>
                > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
                > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
                > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
                > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                around
                > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                package
                > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
                > >> request a custom made governor?
                > >>>
                > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
                > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
                > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
                > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site
                and
                > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is
                this
                > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
                > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
                > >> generators cannot do that.
                > >>>
                > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
                > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
                > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics
                are
                > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to
                pick
                > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
                > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
                > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
                > >> such things.
                > >>>
                > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                > >>>
                > >>> Obi
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>>
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                > >
                > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                provides
                > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
                > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                > >
                > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                > > microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gravity_machine
                Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise that makes ENERGY
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                  very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                  that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                  and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                  Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                  Answer`s

                  For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                  anyway



                  John D. Herring


                  --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Art:
                  >
                  > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but
                  you keep
                  > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                  >
                  > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about
                  certain
                  > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really
                  serious.
                  > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going
                  to
                  > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in
                  a
                  > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study
                  with a
                  > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the
                  way
                  > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,
                  cost
                  > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                  >
                  > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                  > harming any group mate.
                  >
                  > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM
                  equipment
                  > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality
                  equipment
                  > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;
                  so do
                  > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                  >
                  > Good luck,
                  >
                  > Angel
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]
                  On
                  > Behalf Of gandor13@...
                  > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                  > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Nando
                  >
                  > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the
                  start. So
                  > I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                  >
                  > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving
                  force as
                  > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location
                  are
                  > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it
                  is. From
                  > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero
                  access in
                  > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community
                  to the
                  > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be
                  part of
                  > the scheme before any equipment got there.
                  >
                  > Dam Site:
                  > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                  > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                  > pictures only!)
                  > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an
                  uninhabited
                  > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The
                  longest
                  > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately
                  5km...
                  > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                  >
                  > Structure:
                  > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                  > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                  > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                  > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                  > 150m long canal from headpond
                  >
                  > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will
                  have
                  > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what
                  equipment is
                  > chosen.
                  >
                  > Extra Details:
                  > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the
                  least
                  > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The
                  route
                  > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                  >
                  > Proposed Systems:
                  > ONE 900kW package
                  > or
                  > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                  >
                  > Construction Repairs:
                  > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                  > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                  > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                  >
                  > Electromechanical
                  > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                  > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                  > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                  > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                  >
                  > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be
                  done
                  > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially
                  posted on
                  > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who
                  have
                  > worked on similar projects in the past.
                  >
                  > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?
                  taking into
                  > consideration transportation constraints, construction time
                  constraints
                  > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme
                  close to
                  > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute
                  minimum
                  > baseline.
                  >
                  > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                  > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I
                  understand
                  > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                  >
                  > @ Nando
                  > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans
                  can be
                  > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,
                  extra
                  > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for
                  them is
                  > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some
                  diesel
                  > consumption is the priority.
                  >
                  > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                  > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not
                  possible.
                  > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                  > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good
                  place
                  > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post
                  an
                  > update.
                  >
                  > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > "Nando" nando37@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Art:
                  > >
                  > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                  > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                  > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the
                  capability of
                  > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage
                  -- all
                  > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement
                  due to
                  > the long transmission power lines.
                  > >
                  > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also
                  the step
                  > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a
                  single
                  > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and
                  correction done
                  > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The
                  Generator
                  > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of
                  voltage
                  > losses due to the long transmission line,
                  > >
                  > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too
                  heavy
                  > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at
                  maximum
                  > power generation --
                  > >
                  > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                  > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total
                  transmission
                  > lines with the up/down conversion.
                  > >
                  > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %
                  more
                  > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power
                  lines
                  > >
                  > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117
                  Vac
                  > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different
                  regulations
                  > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in
                  some
                  > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                  > >
                  > > Nando
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                  > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dear All
                  > >
                  > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                  > > Transformer to 220 or
                  > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                  > >
                  > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                  > Manufacturer
                  > > responsibility )
                  > >
                  > > Art
                  > >
                  > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:
                  > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center
                  tapped
                  > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Spence
                  > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                  > > > http://www.green-trust.org
                  > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Obi:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a
                  bit of
                  > > >> more accuracy !!
                  > > >>
                  > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                  > 120-0-120)
                  > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --
                  Make
                  > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                  > > >>
                  > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3
                  phase
                  > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages
                  -- to
                  > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and
                  what is
                  > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage
                  to
                  > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good
                  reduction in
                  > > >> the cost of the hydro.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,
                  specially if
                  > > >> fish is present. - ???
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but
                  with a
                  > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                  > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power
                  increase to
                  > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to
                  be
                  > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do
                  believe
                  > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling
                  buried
                  > to
                  > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may
                  increase
                  > the
                  > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase
                  of the
                  > > >> fuel basic cost .
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest
                  possible
                  > > >> hydro power for the community .
                  > > >>
                  > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do
                  maximize
                  > > >> the harvested power .
                  > > >>
                  > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of
                  diesel
                  > and
                  > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                  > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                  > > >>
                  > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest
                  to
                  > have
                  > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .
                  and the
                  > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3
                  turbines and
                  > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW
                  ) and
                  > > >> leave the third for expansion.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present
                  winter
                  > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing
                  limitations -
                  > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality
                  like a
                  > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                  > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the
                  business
                  > > >> anymore.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Do please keep us informed
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Nando
                  > > >>
                  > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                  > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                  > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                  > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.
                  There are
                  > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the
                  year,
                  > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access
                  to the
                  > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport
                  equipment
                  > > >> in winter then build in summer.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                  > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any
                  hydro
                  > > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is
                  outback
                  > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak
                  demand
                  > of
                  > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep
                  enough to
                  > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as
                  additional
                  > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which
                  would
                  > be
                  > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen
                  sets or
                  > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen
                  sets
                  > > >> with some standby ones?
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Thanks for input Nando
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Obi
                  > > >>
                  > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                  > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                  > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                  > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                  > > >>
                  > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Obi:
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to
                  bring
                  > > >> heavy equipment --
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be
                  harvested,
                  > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably
                  better to
                  > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                  > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to
                  let's
                  > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                  > during
                  > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order
                  but
                  > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he
                  is
                  > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send
                  any
                  > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as
                  well
                  > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for
                  logistics and
                  > > >> or use and maintenance .
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote
                  from
                  > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per
                  installed KW
                  > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the
                  site
                  > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give
                  you a
                  > > >> quote for the equipment .
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality
                  right
                  > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the
                  high
                  > > >> voltage parameters .
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at
                  all if
                  > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                  > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the
                  diesel
                  > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take
                  care of
                  > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for
                  heating
                  > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the
                  cost
                  > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro
                  system .
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Nando
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                  > > >>> From: gandor13@
                  > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                  > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Hello All
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                  > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some
                  things.
                  > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Community:
                  > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                  > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                  > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet
                  the
                  > > >> demand at any one time.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Resource:
                  > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away
                  (through
                  > > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                  > > >>> Head: 17m
                  > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                  > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby
                  (50km same
                  > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data
                  along
                  > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the
                  daily
                  > flow
                  > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and
                  drops
                  > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking
                  at the
                  > > >> flow duration curve.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                  > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                  > (gearbox
                  > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this
                  application).
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> My questions are:
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet
                  aisles"
                  > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point
                  I need
                  > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor
                  would
                  > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                  > around
                  > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                  > package
                  > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do
                  you
                  > > >> request a custom made governor?
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought
                  that
                  > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of
                  the
                  > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                  > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that
                  meets the
                  > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between
                  site
                  > and
                  > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.
                  Is
                  > this
                  > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between
                  50% to
                  > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that
                  hydro
                  > > >> generators cannot do that.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages
                  that
                  > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find
                  costs
                  > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance
                  specifics
                  > are
                  > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need
                  to
                  > pick
                  > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of
                  lines/km,
                  > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've
                  searched
                  > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles
                  listing
                  > > >> such things.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Obi
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>
                  > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                  > > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register
                  free of
                  > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                  > > >
                  > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups
                  who
                  > provides
                  > > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                  endorse
                  > > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                  > > >
                  > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                  > > > microhydro-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Don Jackson
                  Cool. How many watts does this produce and how soon can I have one? To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com From: gravity_machine@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Cool. How many watts does this produce and how soon can I have one?






                    To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                    From: gravity_machine@...
                    Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:14:37 +0000
                    Subject: [microhydro] Invention






























                    Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this

                    very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise

                    that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity

                    and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.

                    Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving

                    Answer`s



                    For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite

                    anyway



                    John D. Herring



                    --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodr�guez C. <rmrc@...>

                    wrote:

                    >

                    > Hi Art:

                    >

                    > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but

                    you keep

                    > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.

                    >

                    > I�m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about

                    certain

                    > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really

                    serious.

                    > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going

                    to

                    > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in

                    a

                    > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study

                    with a

                    > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the

                    way

                    > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,

                    cost

                    > effective and feasible result what you won�t get by email.

                    >

                    > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of

                    > harming any group mate.

                    >

                    > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM

                    equipment

                    > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality

                    equipment

                    > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;

                    so do

                    > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.

                    >

                    > Good luck,

                    >

                    > Angel

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]

                    On

                    > Behalf Of gandor13@...

                    > Sent: mi�rcoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.

                    > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                    > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hey Nando

                    >

                    > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the

                    start. So

                    > I'll try and clear up confusion now.

                    >

                    > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving

                    force as

                    > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location

                    are

                    > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it

                    is. From

                    > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero

                    access in

                    > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community

                    to the

                    > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be

                    part of

                    > the scheme before any equipment got there.

                    >

                    > Dam Site:

                    > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated

                    > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from

                    > pictures only!)

                    > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an

                    uninhabited

                    > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The

                    longest

                    > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately

                    5km...

                    > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.

                    >

                    > Structure:

                    > This is still in place from the previous operation.

                    > Concrete dam, 5mx30m

                    > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)

                    > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks

                    > 150m long canal from headpond

                    >

                    > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will

                    have

                    > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what

                    equipment is

                    > chosen.

                    >

                    > Extra Details:

                    > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the

                    least

                    > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The

                    route

                    > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.

                    >

                    > Proposed Systems:

                    > ONE 900kW package

                    > or

                    > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package

                    >

                    > Construction Repairs:

                    > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??

                    > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??

                    > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??

                    >

                    > Electromechanical

                    > Penstock Replacement $$/??

                    > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??

                    > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??

                    > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??

                    >

                    > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be

                    done

                    > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially

                    posted on

                    > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who

                    have

                    > worked on similar projects in the past.

                    >

                    > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?

                    taking into

                    > consideration transportation constraints, construction time

                    constraints

                    > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme

                    close to

                    > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute

                    minimum

                    > baseline.

                    >

                    > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for

                    > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I

                    understand

                    > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?

                    >

                    > @ Nando

                    > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans

                    can be

                    > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,

                    extra

                    > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for

                    them is

                    > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some

                    diesel

                    > consumption is the priority.

                    >

                    > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that

                    > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not

                    possible.

                    > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed

                    > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good

                    place

                    > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post

                    an

                    > update.

                    >

                    > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                    <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,

                    > "Nando" nando37@ wrote:

                    > >

                    > > Art:

                    > >

                    > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator

                    > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the

                    > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the

                    capability of

                    > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage

                    -- all

                    > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement

                    due to

                    > the long transmission power lines.

                    > >

                    > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also

                    the step

                    > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a

                    single

                    > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and

                    correction done

                    > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The

                    Generator

                    > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of

                    voltage

                    > losses due to the long transmission line,

                    > >

                    > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too

                    heavy

                    > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at

                    maximum

                    > power generation --

                    > >

                    > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an

                    > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total

                    transmission

                    > lines with the up/down conversion.

                    > >

                    > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %

                    more

                    > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power

                    lines

                    > >

                    > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117

                    Vac

                    > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different

                    regulations

                    > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in

                    some

                    > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .

                    > >

                    > > Nando

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > ----- Original Message -----

                    > > From: SUSAN OLARTE

                    > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM

                    > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > Dear All

                    > >

                    > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down

                    > > Transformer to 220 or

                    > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility

                    > >

                    > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator

                    > Manufacturer

                    > > responsibility )

                    > >

                    > > Art

                    > >

                    > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:

                    > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center

                    tapped

                    > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.

                    > > >

                    > > > Steve Spence

                    > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency

                    > > > http://www.green-trust.org

                    > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:

                    > > >>

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Obi:

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a

                    bit of

                    > > >> more accuracy !!

                    > > >>

                    > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (

                    > 120-0-120)

                    > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --

                    Make

                    > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .

                    > > >>

                    > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3

                    phase

                    > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages

                    -- to

                    > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and

                    what is

                    > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage

                    to

                    > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good

                    reduction in

                    > > >> the cost of the hydro.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,

                    specially if

                    > > >> fish is present. - ???

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but

                    with a

                    > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .

                    > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power

                    increase to

                    > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to

                    be

                    > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do

                    believe

                    > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling

                    buried

                    > to

                    > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may

                    increase

                    > the

                    > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase

                    of the

                    > > >> fuel basic cost .

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest

                    possible

                    > > >> hydro power for the community .

                    > > >>

                    > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do

                    maximize

                    > > >> the harvested power .

                    > > >>

                    > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of

                    diesel

                    > and

                    > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its

                    > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .

                    > > >>

                    > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest

                    to

                    > have

                    > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .

                    and the

                    > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3

                    turbines and

                    > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW

                    ) and

                    > > >> leave the third for expansion.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present

                    winter

                    > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing

                    limitations -

                    > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality

                    like a

                    > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the

                    > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the

                    business

                    > > >> anymore.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Do please keep us informed

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Nando

                    > > >>

                    > > >> ----- Original Message -----

                    > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>

                    > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                    <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM

                    > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.

                    There are

                    > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the

                    year,

                    > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access

                    to the

                    > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport

                    equipment

                    > > >> in winter then build in summer.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on

                    > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any

                    hydro

                    > > >> downtime due to maintenance.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is

                    outback

                    > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.

                    > > >>

                    > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak

                    demand

                    > of

                    > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep

                    enough to

                    > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as

                    additional

                    > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which

                    would

                    > be

                    > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen

                    sets or

                    > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen

                    sets

                    > > >> with some standby ones?

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Thanks for input Nando

                    > > >>

                    > > >> Obi

                    > > >>

                    > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before

                    > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60

                    > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m

                    > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2

                    > > >>

                    > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                    <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,

                    > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Obi:

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to

                    bring

                    > > >> heavy equipment --

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be

                    harvested,

                    > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably

                    better to

                    > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add

                    > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to

                    let's

                    > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course

                    > during

                    > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order

                    but

                    > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he

                    is

                    > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send

                    any

                    > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as

                    well

                    > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for

                    logistics and

                    > > >> or use and maintenance .

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote

                    from

                    > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per

                    installed KW

                    > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the

                    site

                    > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give

                    you a

                    > > >> quote for the equipment .

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality

                    right

                    > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the

                    high

                    > > >> voltage parameters .

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at

                    all if

                    > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual

                    > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the

                    diesel

                    > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take

                    care of

                    > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for

                    heating

                    > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the

                    cost

                    > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro

                    system .

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Nando

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> ----- Original Message -----

                    > > >>> From: gandor13@

                    > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                    <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                    > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM

                    > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Hello All

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was

                    > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some

                    things.

                    > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Community:

                    > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW

                    > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation

                    > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet

                    the

                    > > >> demand at any one time.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Resource:

                    > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away

                    (through

                    > > >> forest/lakes) from the community

                    > > >>> Head: 17m

                    > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s

                    > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby

                    (50km same

                    > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data

                    along

                    > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the

                    daily

                    > flow

                    > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and

                    drops

                    > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking

                    at the

                    > > >> flow duration curve.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the

                    > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -

                    > (gearbox

                    > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this

                    application).

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> My questions are:

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet

                    aisles"

                    > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point

                    I need

                    > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor

                    would

                    > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed

                    > around

                    > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor

                    > package

                    > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do

                    you

                    > > >> request a custom made governor?

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought

                    that

                    > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of

                    the

                    > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a

                    > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that

                    meets the

                    > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between

                    site

                    > and

                    > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.

                    Is

                    > this

                    > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between

                    50% to

                    > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that

                    hydro

                    > > >> generators cannot do that.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages

                    that

                    > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find

                    costs

                    > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance

                    specifics

                    > are

                    > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need

                    to

                    > pick

                    > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of

                    lines/km,

                    > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've

                    searched

                    > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles

                    listing

                    > > >> such things.

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> Obi

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    > > >>>

                    > > >>

                    > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    > > >>

                    > > >>

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > > > ------------------------------------

                    > > >

                    > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at

                    > > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register

                    free of

                    > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!

                    > > >

                    > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups

                    who

                    > provides

                    > > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not

                    endorse

                    > > > products or support the advertisements in any way.

                    > > >

                    > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net

                    > > >

                    > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to

                    > > > microhydro-unsubscribe@! Groups Links

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    > >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jrkess98@aol.com
                    Mr. Herring: I think I write for most members of the Human Race when I thank you for finally perfecting Perpetual Motion, an idea which has eluded all of
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
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                      Mr. Herring:

                      I think I write for most members of the Human Race when I thank you for
                      finally perfecting Perpetual Motion, an idea which has eluded all of human
                      endeavor for centuries. It always perplexed me that the US Patent Office
                      specifically excludes P.M. devices from consideration as 'patentable'. Now
                      all that will change!

                      Please keep us informed on the progress of your development.

                      John Kessler, Ft. Lauderdale


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Welch
                      I m just guessing he s looking for investors to help give this marvelous invention to the world.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
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                        I'm just guessing he's "looking for investors" to help give this marvelous invention to the world.

                        gravity_machine wrote at 01:14 PM 9/6/2010:


                        >Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                        >very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                        >that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                        >and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                        >Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                        >Answer`s
                        >
                        > For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                        >anyway
                      • Sagar Mani Gnawali
                        hello friend, I am confuse abt your project.. is it not using any kind of energy? How it possible... The power of gravity can be used at a time ... But how it
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
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                          hello friend,
                          I am confuse abt your project.. is it not using any kind of energy?
                          How it possible... The power of gravity can be used at a time ... But
                          how it possible?

                          On 9/6/10, gravity_machine <gravity_machine@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                          > very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                          > that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                          > and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                          > Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                          > Answer`s
                          >
                          > For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                          > anyway
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > John D. Herring
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Hi Art:
                          >>
                          >> I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but
                          > you keep
                          >> exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                          >>
                          >> I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about
                          > certain
                          >> items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really
                          > serious.
                          >> You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going
                          > to
                          >> receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in
                          > a
                          >> remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study
                          > with a
                          >> person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the
                          > way
                          >> you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,
                          > cost
                          >> effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                          >>
                          >> This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                          >> harming any group mate.
                          >>
                          >> I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM
                          > equipment
                          >> from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality
                          > equipment
                          >> for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;
                          > so do
                          >> not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                          >>
                          >> Good luck,
                          >>
                          >> Angel
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On
                          >> Behalf Of gandor13@...
                          >> Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                          >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Hey Nando
                          >>
                          >> My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the
                          > start. So
                          >> I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                          >>
                          >> The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving
                          > force as
                          >> cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location
                          > are
                          >> 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it
                          > is. From
                          >> the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero
                          > access in
                          >> the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community
                          > to the
                          >> site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be
                          > part of
                          >> the scheme before any equipment got there.
                          >>
                          >> Dam Site:
                          >> Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                          >> Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                          >> pictures only!)
                          >> The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an
                          > uninhabited
                          >> area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The
                          > longest
                          >> stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately
                          > 5km...
                          >> it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                          >>
                          >> Structure:
                          >> This is still in place from the previous operation.
                          >> Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                          >> 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                          >> Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                          >> 150m long canal from headpond
                          >>
                          >> Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will
                          > have
                          >> to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what
                          > equipment is
                          >> chosen.
                          >>
                          >> Extra Details:
                          >> Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the
                          > least
                          >> 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The
                          > route
                          >> avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                          >>
                          >> Proposed Systems:
                          >> ONE 900kW package
                          >> or
                          >> Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                          >>
                          >> Construction Repairs:
                          >> Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                          >> Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                          >> Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                          >>
                          >> Electromechanical
                          >> Penstock Replacement $$/??
                          >> Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                          >> Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                          >> Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                          >>
                          >> Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be
                          > done
                          >> to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially
                          > posted on
                          >> the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who
                          > have
                          >> worked on similar projects in the past.
                          >>
                          >> Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?
                          > taking into
                          >> consideration transportation constraints, construction time
                          > constraints
                          >> (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme
                          > close to
                          >> main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute
                          > minimum
                          >> baseline.
                          >>
                          >> Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                          >> electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I
                          > understand
                          >> that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                          >>
                          >> @ Nando
                          >> Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans
                          > can be
                          >> agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,
                          > extra
                          >> turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for
                          > them is
                          >> the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some
                          > diesel
                          >> consumption is the priority.
                          >>
                          >> Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                          >> information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not
                          > possible.
                          >> Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                          >> pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good
                          > place
                          >> for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post
                          > an
                          >> update.
                          >>
                          >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          >> "Nando" nando37@ wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > Art:
                          >> >
                          >> > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                          >> manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                          >> delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the
                          > capability of
                          >> varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage
                          > -- all
                          >> this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement
                          > due to
                          >> the long transmission power lines.
                          >> >
                          >> > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also
                          > the step
                          >> up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a
                          > single
                          >> community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and
                          > correction done
                          >> by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The
                          > Generator
                          >> voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of
                          > voltage
                          >> losses due to the long transmission line,
                          >> >
                          >> > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too
                          > heavy
                          >> diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at
                          > maximum
                          >> power generation --
                          >> >
                          >> > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                          >> overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total
                          > transmission
                          >> lines with the up/down conversion.
                          >> >
                          >> > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %
                          > more
                          >> to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power
                          > lines
                          >> >
                          >> > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117
                          > Vac
                          >> with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different
                          > regulations
                          >> from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in
                          > some
                          >> places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                          >> >
                          >> > Nando
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > ----- Original Message -----
                          >> > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                          >> > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                          >> > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > Dear All
                          >> >
                          >> > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                          >> > Transformer to 220 or
                          >> > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                          >> >
                          >> > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                          >> Manufacturer
                          >> > responsibility )
                          >> >
                          >> > Art
                          >> >
                          >> > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:
                          >> > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center
                          > tapped
                          >> > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > Steve Spence
                          >> > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                          >> > > http://www.green-trust.org
                          >> > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Obi:
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a
                          > bit of
                          >> > >> more accuracy !!
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                          >> 120-0-120)
                          >> > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --
                          > Make
                          >> > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3
                          > phase
                          >> > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages
                          > -- to
                          >> > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and
                          > what is
                          >> > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage
                          > to
                          >> > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good
                          > reduction in
                          >> > >> the cost of the hydro.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,
                          > specially if
                          >> > >> fish is present. - ???
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but
                          > with a
                          >> > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                          >> > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power
                          > increase to
                          >> > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to
                          > be
                          >> > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do
                          > believe
                          >> > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling
                          > buried
                          >> to
                          >> > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may
                          > increase
                          >> the
                          >> > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase
                          > of the
                          >> > >> fuel basic cost .
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest
                          > possible
                          >> > >> hydro power for the community .
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do
                          > maximize
                          >> > >> the harvested power .
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of
                          > diesel
                          >> and
                          >> > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                          >> > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest
                          > to
                          >> have
                          >> > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .
                          > and the
                          >> > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3
                          > turbines and
                          >> > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW
                          > ) and
                          >> > >> leave the third for expansion.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present
                          > winter
                          >> > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing
                          > limitations -
                          >> > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality
                          > like a
                          >> > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                          >> > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the
                          > business
                          >> > >> anymore.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Do please keep us informed
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Nando
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                          >> > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                          >> > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.
                          > There are
                          >> > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the
                          > year,
                          >> > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access
                          > to the
                          >> > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport
                          > equipment
                          >> > >> in winter then build in summer.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                          >> > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any
                          > hydro
                          >> > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is
                          > outback
                          >> > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak
                          > demand
                          >> of
                          >> > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep
                          > enough to
                          >> > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as
                          > additional
                          >> > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which
                          > would
                          >> be
                          >> > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen
                          > sets or
                          >> > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen
                          > sets
                          >> > >> with some standby ones?
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Thanks for input Nando
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Obi
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                          >> > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                          >> > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                          >> > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          >> > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Obi:
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to
                          > bring
                          >> > >> heavy equipment --
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be
                          > harvested,
                          >> > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably
                          > better to
                          >> > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                          >> > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to
                          > let's
                          >> > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                          >> during
                          >> > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order
                          > but
                          >> > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he
                          > is
                          >> > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send
                          > any
                          >> > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as
                          > well
                          >> > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for
                          > logistics and
                          >> > >> or use and maintenance .
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote
                          > from
                          >> > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per
                          > installed KW
                          >> > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the
                          > site
                          >> > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give
                          > you a
                          >> > >> quote for the equipment .
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality
                          > right
                          >> > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the
                          > high
                          >> > >> voltage parameters .
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at
                          > all if
                          >> > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                          >> > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the
                          > diesel
                          >> > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take
                          > care of
                          >> > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for
                          > heating
                          >> > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the
                          > cost
                          >> > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro
                          > system .
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Nando
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> > >>> From: gandor13@
                          >> > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                          >> > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Hello All
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                          >> > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some
                          > things.
                          >> > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Community:
                          >> > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                          >> > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                          >> > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet
                          > the
                          >> > >> demand at any one time.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Resource:
                          >> > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away
                          > (through
                          >> > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                          >> > >>> Head: 17m
                          >> > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                          >> > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby
                          > (50km same
                          >> > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data
                          > along
                          >> > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the
                          > daily
                          >> flow
                          >> > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and
                          > drops
                          >> > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking
                          > at the
                          >> > >> flow duration curve.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                          >> > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                          >> (gearbox
                          >> > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this
                          > application).
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> My questions are:
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet
                          > aisles"
                          >> > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point
                          > I need
                          >> > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor
                          > would
                          >> > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                          >> around
                          >> > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                          >> package
                          >> > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do
                          > you
                          >> > >> request a custom made governor?
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought
                          > that
                          >> > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of
                          > the
                          >> > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                          >> > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that
                          > meets the
                          >> > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between
                          > site
                          >> and
                          >> > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.
                          > Is
                          >> this
                          >> > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between
                          > 50% to
                          >> > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that
                          > hydro
                          >> > >> generators cannot do that.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages
                          > that
                          >> > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find
                          > costs
                          >> > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance
                          > specifics
                          >> are
                          >> > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need
                          > to
                          >> pick
                          >> > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of
                          > lines/km,
                          >> > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've
                          > searched
                          >> > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles
                          > listing
                          >> > >> such things.
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> Obi
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >> > >>>
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> > > ------------------------------------
                          >> > >
                          >> > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                          >> > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register
                          > free of
                          >> > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                          >> > >
                          >> > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups
                          > who
                          >> provides
                          >> > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                          > endorse
                          >> > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                          >> > >
                          >> > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                          >> > > microhydro-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          --
                          Sagar Gnawali
                          Electrical Engineer
                          Aasthanetwork Pvt.Ltd.
                          www.asthanetwork.com
                          Mobile No. 0977-9841803113
                        • Nando
                          JOHN D. HERRING: When are you going to show that your INVENTION = E.L.S.A. produces energy NOT with words which is what you have been doing since at least
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
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                            JOHN D. HERRING:

                            When are you going to show that your INVENTION = E.L.S.A. produces energy NOT with words which is what you have been doing since at least 2003 -- and did You take E.LS.A. to Washington or NOT ?>

                            What you mean by E.LS.A.running ?.

                            Unless you publicly show a true demonstration of ELSA, you are insulting your mother !! instead of Honoring her.


                            You have being for long time called, in internet, something like you like to "scam" the people.

                            Are You, how many packets of information have you sold and/or given away ?.

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simple Google search ~~~~~~

                            This verbiage is clearly yours written some time - long ago -- which shows, as well, your education level -- do you know what orthography is ?.
                            Do you know the difference between there and their ?.

                            Why do you give excuses about your spelling, it seems "you can not learn to spells because you are a machinist "

                            About us E. L. S. A. `s co. Name is "elsa"
                            e. L. S. A. Stand`s for e. Arth`s L. Ife S. Aving a. Nswer`s. -- anyway, I patent, u. S. Patent 4688824 sence then I have invented an "early earthquake warning system" Japan is the only country that I know of with it implemented in there subway system as seen on n. O. V. A. And cnn. Back to elsa'; the u. S. Patent office denide a patent for elsa, claiming it fall`s in the "realm" of "perpetual-motion" I clame it is not perpetual-monion because! Part`s wear out! How long elsa will last depend`s on the construction meteral. 'of course! '. But it will still wear out eventualy. Example, of a real perpetual-motion ' food for thought ' the pyarmid`s are not, they are continiously wearing away and one day will be gone! But if they were made of titainium, they would be perpetual-motion to us! Because they would way out last the human race * important _> " material" elsa could be made out of ceramic or PVC and what-ever! Elsa has been listed in the new`s, elsa info was sent via e-mail to all in the u. S. Congress, senate, white house, and head`s of state in many countries. I have had offer`s from oil companies and threats from power co`s _ e. L. S. A. Is not for sale to any one co. Elsa is a gift to the world, it`s up to all people to save it, or at least some neigbhood`s or vilage`s can live energy independent. "elsa uses no fuel of any kind. "
                            Oh! See "ask jeeves" for more information l@@k t/y -- wow! Fact; * u. S. Childran`s live`s --- sence I pat. U. S. Pat. #4688824 there has been over 100,000 kid`s injured by there school-bus, the insurance co`s have what I call a lotery on our childran. Did you know that for every $10,000,000 in preium`s represents 2 dead kid`s they make 8 mil. Pay to the unlucky parent 1,000,000 if they get a good lawyer. With the "school bus safty system" there would be but a few dead, a year, from accident`s none dead from there own school-bus fact, there are over 5,000 injuries a year average age 6 1/2. - 69 % of them are out side the bus and could be avoited --back to e. L. S. A. ;. Else the graviyt machine has numerous invention`s I can say at least 1/2 of the 50+ drawing`s and infomation on elsa has never been seen before, all I can say about them is that they make it so easy, just about anyone could build it for them selve`s or an entire village or town, city, country. These drawing`s hold many many design`s and material`s and many sizes, """elsa""" elsa can be built any size to run any were, including under water, ground, below freezing, even on a mountian 24/7/365 day`s a year except for occasional maintainence. - "please excuse the spelling and other obvious misstakes.
                            I have 30+ year`s as a machinist, tool&die maker not as a spelling/wrighting/speaker: -)

                            And last of all price "per folder" selling for $100. Oo each min. Order 10,000 - availability 100,000 30 day delivery any where in the world shipped UPS or usps.
                            Retail valvue $500. Oo ea. Fuel value pricelass

                            Industry Focus UPS & Power Supply ,
                            Business Type Distributor/Wholesaler
                            Products/Services UPS and power supply. How to be energy independent using your own
                            Our Markets Worldwide
                            No. of Employees Less than 5 People




















                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: gravity_machine
                            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:14 PM
                            Subject: [microhydro] Invention




                            Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                            very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                            that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                            and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                            Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                            Answer`s

                            For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                            anyway

                            John D. Herring

                            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Art:
                            >
                            > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but
                            you keep
                            > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                            >
                            > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about
                            certain
                            > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really
                            serious.
                            > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going
                            to
                            > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in
                            a
                            > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study
                            with a
                            > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the
                            way
                            > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,
                            cost
                            > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                            >
                            > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                            > harming any group mate.
                            >
                            > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM
                            equipment
                            > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality
                            equipment
                            > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;
                            so do
                            > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                            >
                            > Good luck,
                            >
                            > Angel
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]
                            On
                            > Behalf Of gandor13@...
                            > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey Nando
                            >
                            > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the
                            start. So
                            > I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                            >
                            > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving
                            force as
                            > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location
                            are
                            > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it
                            is. From
                            > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero
                            access in
                            > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community
                            to the
                            > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be
                            part of
                            > the scheme before any equipment got there.
                            >
                            > Dam Site:
                            > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                            > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                            > pictures only!)
                            > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an
                            uninhabited
                            > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The
                            longest
                            > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately
                            5km...
                            > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                            >
                            > Structure:
                            > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                            > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                            > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                            > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                            > 150m long canal from headpond
                            >
                            > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will
                            have
                            > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what
                            equipment is
                            > chosen.
                            >
                            > Extra Details:
                            > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the
                            least
                            > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The
                            route
                            > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                            >
                            > Proposed Systems:
                            > ONE 900kW package
                            > or
                            > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                            >
                            > Construction Repairs:
                            > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                            > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                            > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                            >
                            > Electromechanical
                            > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                            > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                            > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                            > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                            >
                            > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be
                            done
                            > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially
                            posted on
                            > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who
                            have
                            > worked on similar projects in the past.
                            >
                            > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?
                            taking into
                            > consideration transportation constraints, construction time
                            constraints
                            > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme
                            close to
                            > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute
                            minimum
                            > baseline.
                            >
                            > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                            > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I
                            understand
                            > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                            >
                            > @ Nando
                            > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans
                            can be
                            > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,
                            extra
                            > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for
                            them is
                            > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some
                            diesel
                            > consumption is the priority.
                            >
                            > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                            > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not
                            possible.
                            > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                            > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good
                            place
                            > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post
                            an
                            > update.
                            >
                            > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                            > "Nando" nando37@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Art:
                            > >
                            > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                            > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                            > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the
                            capability of
                            > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage
                            -- all
                            > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement
                            due to
                            > the long transmission power lines.
                            > >
                            > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also
                            the step
                            > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a
                            single
                            > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and
                            correction done
                            > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The
                            Generator
                            > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of
                            voltage
                            > losses due to the long transmission line,
                            > >
                            > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too
                            heavy
                            > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at
                            maximum
                            > power generation --
                            > >
                            > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                            > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total
                            transmission
                            > lines with the up/down conversion.
                            > >
                            > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %
                            more
                            > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power
                            lines
                            > >
                            > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117
                            Vac
                            > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different
                            regulations
                            > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in
                            some
                            > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                            > >
                            > > Nando
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                            > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear All
                            > >
                            > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                            > > Transformer to 220 or
                            > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                            > >
                            > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                            > Manufacturer
                            > > responsibility )
                            > >
                            > > Art
                            > >
                            > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:
                            > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center
                            tapped
                            > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                            > > >
                            > > > Steve Spence
                            > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                            > > > http://www.green-trust.org
                            > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Obi:
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a
                            bit of
                            > > >> more accuracy !!
                            > > >>
                            > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                            > 120-0-120)
                            > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --
                            Make
                            > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                            > > >>
                            > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3
                            phase
                            > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages
                            -- to
                            > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and
                            what is
                            > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage
                            to
                            > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good
                            reduction in
                            > > >> the cost of the hydro.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,
                            specially if
                            > > >> fish is present. - ???
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but
                            with a
                            > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                            > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power
                            increase to
                            > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to
                            be
                            > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do
                            believe
                            > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling
                            buried
                            > to
                            > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may
                            increase
                            > the
                            > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase
                            of the
                            > > >> fuel basic cost .
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest
                            possible
                            > > >> hydro power for the community .
                            > > >>
                            > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do
                            maximize
                            > > >> the harvested power .
                            > > >>
                            > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of
                            diesel
                            > and
                            > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                            > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                            > > >>
                            > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest
                            to
                            > have
                            > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .
                            and the
                            > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3
                            turbines and
                            > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW
                            ) and
                            > > >> leave the third for expansion.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present
                            winter
                            > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing
                            limitations -
                            > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality
                            like a
                            > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                            > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the
                            business
                            > > >> anymore.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Do please keep us informed
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Nando
                            > > >>
                            > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                            > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                            > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                            > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.
                            There are
                            > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the
                            year,
                            > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access
                            to the
                            > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport
                            equipment
                            > > >> in winter then build in summer.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                            > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any
                            hydro
                            > > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is
                            outback
                            > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak
                            demand
                            > of
                            > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep
                            enough to
                            > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as
                            additional
                            > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which
                            would
                            > be
                            > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen
                            sets or
                            > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen
                            sets
                            > > >> with some standby ones?
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Thanks for input Nando
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Obi
                            > > >>
                            > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                            > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                            > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                            > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                            > > >>
                            > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Obi:
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to
                            bring
                            > > >> heavy equipment --
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be
                            harvested,
                            > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably
                            better to
                            > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                            > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to
                            let's
                            > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                            > during
                            > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order
                            but
                            > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he
                            is
                            > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send
                            any
                            > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as
                            well
                            > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for
                            logistics and
                            > > >> or use and maintenance .
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote
                            from
                            > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per
                            installed KW
                            > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the
                            site
                            > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give
                            you a
                            > > >> quote for the equipment .
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality
                            right
                            > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the
                            high
                            > > >> voltage parameters .
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at
                            all if
                            > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                            > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the
                            diesel
                            > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take
                            care of
                            > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for
                            heating
                            > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the
                            cost
                            > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro
                            system .
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Nando
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                            > > >>> From: gandor13@
                            > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                            > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Hello All
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                            > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some
                            things.
                            > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Community:
                            > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                            > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                            > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet
                            the
                            > > >> demand at any one time.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Resource:
                            > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away
                            (through
                            > > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                            > > >>> Head: 17m
                            > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                            > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby
                            (50km same
                            > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data
                            along
                            > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the
                            daily
                            > flow
                            > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and
                            drops
                            > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking
                            at the
                            > > >> flow duration curve.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                            > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                            > (gearbox
                            > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this
                            application).
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> My questions are:
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet
                            aisles"
                            > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point
                            I need
                            > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor
                            would
                            > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                            > around
                            > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                            > package
                            > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do
                            you
                            > > >> request a custom made governor?
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought
                            that
                            > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of
                            the
                            > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                            > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that
                            meets the
                            > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between
                            site
                            > and
                            > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.
                            Is
                            > this
                            > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between
                            50% to
                            > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that
                            hydro
                            > > >> generators cannot do that.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages
                            that
                            > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find
                            costs
                            > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance
                            specifics
                            > are
                            > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need
                            to
                            > pick
                            > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of
                            lines/km,
                            > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've
                            searched
                            > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles
                            listing
                            > > >> such things.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Obi
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>
                            > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                            > > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register
                            free of
                            > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                            > > >
                            > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups
                            who
                            > provides
                            > > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                            endorse
                            > > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                            > > >
                            > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                            > > >
                            > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                            > > > microhydro-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • sarsing gao
                            Hey that sounds very interesting! Could you elaborate on the machine, please? Sarsing ________________________________ From: gravity_machine
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 6, 2010
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                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hey that sounds very interesting! Could you elaborate on the machine, please?

                              Sarsing




                              ________________________________
                              From: gravity_machine <gravity_machine@...>
                              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 1:44:37 AM
                              Subject: [microhydro] Invention



                              Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                              very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                              that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                              and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                              Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                              Answer`s

                              For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                              anyway

                              John D. Herring

                              --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Art:
                              >
                              > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but
                              you keep
                              > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                              >
                              > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about
                              certain
                              > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really
                              serious.
                              > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going
                              to
                              > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in
                              a
                              > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study
                              with a
                              > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the
                              way
                              > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,
                              cost
                              > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                              >
                              > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                              > harming any group mate.
                              >
                              > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM
                              equipment
                              > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality
                              equipment
                              > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;
                              so do
                              > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                              >
                              > Good luck,
                              >
                              > Angel
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]
                              On
                              > Behalf Of gandor13@...
                              > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hey Nando
                              >
                              > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the
                              start. So
                              > I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                              >
                              > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving
                              force as
                              > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location
                              are
                              > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it
                              is. From
                              > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero
                              access in
                              > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community
                              to the
                              > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be
                              part of
                              > the scheme before any equipment got there.
                              >
                              > Dam Site:
                              > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                              > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                              > pictures only!)
                              > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an
                              uninhabited
                              > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The
                              longest
                              > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately
                              5km...
                              > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                              >
                              > Structure:
                              > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                              > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                              > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                              > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                              > 150m long canal from headpond
                              >
                              > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will
                              have
                              > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what
                              equipment is
                              > chosen.
                              >
                              > Extra Details:
                              > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the
                              least
                              > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The
                              route
                              > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                              >
                              > Proposed Systems:
                              > ONE 900kW package
                              > or
                              > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                              >
                              > Construction Repairs:
                              > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                              > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                              > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                              >
                              > Electromechanical
                              > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                              > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                              > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                              > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                              >
                              > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be
                              done
                              > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially
                              posted on
                              > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who
                              have
                              > worked on similar projects in the past.
                              >
                              > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?
                              taking into
                              > consideration transportation constraints, construction time
                              constraints
                              > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme
                              close to
                              > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute
                              minimum
                              > baseline.
                              >
                              > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                              > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I
                              understand
                              > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                              >
                              > @ Nando
                              > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans
                              can be
                              > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,
                              extra
                              > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for
                              them is
                              > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some
                              diesel
                              > consumption is the priority.
                              >
                              > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                              > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not
                              possible.
                              > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                              > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good
                              place
                              > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post
                              an
                              > update.
                              >
                              > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              > "Nando" nando37@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Art:
                              > >
                              > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                              > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                              > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the
                              capability of
                              > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage
                              -- all
                              > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement
                              due to
                              > the long transmission power lines.
                              > >
                              > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also
                              the step
                              > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a
                              single
                              > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and
                              correction done
                              > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The
                              Generator
                              > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of
                              voltage
                              > losses due to the long transmission line,
                              > >
                              > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too
                              heavy
                              > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at
                              maximum
                              > power generation --
                              > >
                              > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                              > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total
                              transmission
                              > lines with the up/down conversion.
                              > >
                              > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %
                              more
                              > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power
                              lines
                              > >
                              > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117
                              Vac
                              > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different
                              regulations
                              > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in
                              some
                              > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                              > >
                              > > Nando
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                              > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                              > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dear All
                              > >
                              > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                              > > Transformer to 220 or
                              > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                              > >
                              > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                              > Manufacturer
                              > > responsibility )
                              > >
                              > > Art
                              > >
                              > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:
                              > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center
                              tapped
                              > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                              > > >
                              > > > Steve Spence
                              > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                              > > > http://www.green-trust.org
                              > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Obi:
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a
                              bit of
                              > > >> more accuracy !!
                              > > >>
                              > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                              > 120-0-120)
                              > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --
                              Make
                              > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                              > > >>
                              > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3
                              phase
                              > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages
                              -- to
                              > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and
                              what is
                              > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage
                              to
                              > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good
                              reduction in
                              > > >> the cost of the hydro.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,
                              specially if
                              > > >> fish is present. - ???
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but
                              with a
                              > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                              > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power
                              increase to
                              > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to
                              be
                              > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do
                              believe
                              > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling
                              buried
                              > to
                              > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may
                              increase
                              > the
                              > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase
                              of the
                              > > >> fuel basic cost .
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest
                              possible
                              > > >> hydro power for the community .
                              > > >>
                              > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do
                              maximize
                              > > >> the harvested power .
                              > > >>
                              > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of
                              diesel
                              > and
                              > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                              > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                              > > >>
                              > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest
                              to
                              > have
                              > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .
                              and the
                              > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3
                              turbines and
                              > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW
                              ) and
                              > > >> leave the third for expansion.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present
                              winter
                              > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing
                              limitations -
                              > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality
                              like a
                              > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                              > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the
                              business
                              > > >> anymore.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Do please keep us informed
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Nando
                              > > >>
                              > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                              > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                              > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                              > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.
                              There are
                              > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the
                              year,
                              > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access
                              to the
                              > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport
                              equipment
                              > > >> in winter then build in summer.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                              > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any
                              hydro
                              > > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is
                              outback
                              > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak
                              demand
                              > of
                              > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep
                              enough to
                              > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as
                              additional
                              > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which
                              would
                              > be
                              > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen
                              sets or
                              > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen
                              sets
                              > > >> with some standby ones?
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Thanks for input Nando
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Obi
                              > > >>
                              > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                              > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                              > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                              > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                              > > >>
                              > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Obi:
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to
                              bring
                              > > >> heavy equipment --
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be
                              harvested,
                              > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably
                              better to
                              > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                              > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to
                              let's
                              > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                              > during
                              > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order
                              but
                              > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he
                              is
                              > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send
                              any
                              > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as
                              well
                              > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for
                              logistics and
                              > > >> or use and maintenance .
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote
                              from
                              > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per
                              installed KW
                              > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the
                              site
                              > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give
                              you a
                              > > >> quote for the equipment .
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality
                              right
                              > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the
                              high
                              > > >> voltage parameters .
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at
                              all if
                              > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                              > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the
                              diesel
                              > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take
                              care of
                              > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for
                              heating
                              > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the
                              cost
                              > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro
                              system .
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Nando
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                              > > >>> From: gandor13@
                              > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                              > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Hello All
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                              > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some
                              things.
                              > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Community:
                              > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                              > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                              > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet
                              the
                              > > >> demand at any one time.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Resource:
                              > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away
                              (through
                              > > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                              > > >>> Head: 17m
                              > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                              > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby
                              (50km same
                              > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data
                              along
                              > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the
                              daily
                              > flow
                              > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and
                              drops
                              > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking
                              at the
                              > > >> flow duration curve.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                              > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                              > (gearbox
                              > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this
                              application).
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> My questions are:
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet
                              aisles"
                              > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point
                              I need
                              > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor
                              would
                              > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                              > around
                              > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                              > package
                              > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do
                              you
                              > > >> request a custom made governor?
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought
                              that
                              > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of
                              the
                              > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                              > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that
                              meets the
                              > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between
                              site
                              > and
                              > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.
                              Is
                              > this
                              > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between
                              50% to
                              > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that
                              hydro
                              > > >> generators cannot do that.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages
                              that
                              > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find
                              costs
                              > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance
                              specifics
                              > are
                              > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need
                              to
                              > pick
                              > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of
                              lines/km,
                              > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've
                              searched
                              > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles
                              listing
                              > > >> such things.
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> Obi
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >>>
                              > > >>
                              > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                              > > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register
                              free of
                              > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                              > > >
                              > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups
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                              > provides
                              > > > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                              endorse
                              > > > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                              > > >
                              > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                              > > >
                              > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                              > > > microhydro-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • SUSAN OLARTE
                              Dear all I supplied European EM for the last 15 years Complete package include erection test n commisioning .what i gave is budgetary.until we got the complete
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                Dear all

                                I supplied European EM for the last 15 years Complete package include
                                erection test n commisioning .what i gave is budgetary.until we got
                                the complete specs of the EM base on net head n Fdc ,.EM equipment
                                turbine with 92 to 93 %Eff Gen 96%Eff .Chinese are catching very fast
                                price lower by 30%
                                I supply also this EM lower end Good quality as well.what ever the
                                customer wants i supply up to 15mw

                                Art

                                On 9/5/10, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...> wrote:
                                > Hi Art:
                                >
                                > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but you keep
                                > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                                >
                                > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about certain
                                > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really serious.
                                > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going to
                                > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in a
                                > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study with a
                                > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the way
                                > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate, cost
                                > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                                >
                                > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                                > harming any group mate.
                                >
                                > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM equipment
                                > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality equipment
                                > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting; so do
                                > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                                >
                                > Good luck,
                                >
                                > Angel
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of gandor13@...
                                > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                                > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hey Nando
                                >
                                > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So
                                > I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                                >
                                > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force as
                                > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are
                                > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is. From
                                > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access in
                                > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to the
                                > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part of
                                > the scheme before any equipment got there.
                                >
                                > Dam Site:
                                > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                                > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                                > pictures only!)
                                > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited
                                > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The longest
                                > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km...
                                > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                                >
                                > Structure:
                                > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                                > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                                > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                                > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                                > 150m long canal from headpond
                                >
                                > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have
                                > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is
                                > chosen.
                                >
                                > Extra Details:
                                > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the least
                                > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route
                                > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                                >
                                > Proposed Systems:
                                > ONE 900kW package
                                > or
                                > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                                >
                                > Construction Repairs:
                                > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                                > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                                > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                                >
                                > Electromechanical
                                > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                                > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                                > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                                > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                                >
                                > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be done
                                > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on
                                > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who have
                                > worked on similar projects in the past.
                                >
                                > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking into
                                > consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints
                                > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close to
                                > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum
                                > baseline.
                                >
                                > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                                > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand
                                > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                                >
                                > @ Nando
                                > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be
                                > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra
                                > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them is
                                > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some diesel
                                > consumption is the priority.
                                >
                                > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                                > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible.
                                > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                                > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good place
                                > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an
                                > update.
                                >
                                > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                > "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> Art:
                                >>
                                >> The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                                > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                                > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of
                                > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all
                                > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to
                                > the long transmission power lines.
                                >>
                                >> The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step
                                > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single
                                > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done
                                > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator
                                > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage
                                > losses due to the long transmission line,
                                >>
                                >> that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy
                                > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum
                                > power generation --
                                >>
                                >> Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                                > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission
                                > lines with the up/down conversion.
                                >>
                                >> Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more
                                > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
                                >>
                                >> The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac
                                > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations
                                > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some
                                > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                                >>
                                >> Nando
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> ----- Original Message -----
                                >> From: SUSAN OLARTE
                                >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                                >> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Dear All
                                >>
                                >> The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                                >> Transformer to 220 or
                                >> 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                                >>
                                >> From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                                > Manufacturer
                                >> responsibility )
                                >>
                                >> Art
                                >>
                                >> On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                                >> > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
                                >> > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                                >> >
                                >> > Steve Spence
                                >> > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                >> > http://www.green-trust.org
                                >> > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                                >> >>
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Obi:
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
                                >> >> more accuracy !!
                                >> >>
                                >> >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                                > 120-0-120)
                                >> >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
                                >> >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                                >> >>
                                >> >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
                                >> >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
                                >> >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
                                >> >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
                                >> >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
                                >> >> the cost of the hydro.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
                                >> >> fish is present. - ???
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
                                >> >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                                >> >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
                                >> >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
                                >> >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
                                >> >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried
                                > to
                                >> >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase
                                > the
                                >> >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
                                >> >> fuel basic cost .
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
                                >> >> hydro power for the community .
                                >> >>
                                >> >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
                                >> >> the harvested power .
                                >> >>
                                >> >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel
                                > and
                                >> >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                                >> >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                                >> >>
                                >> >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to
                                > have
                                >> >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
                                >> >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
                                >> >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
                                >> >> leave the third for expansion.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
                                >> >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
                                >> >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
                                >> >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                                >> >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
                                >> >> anymore.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Do please keep us informed
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Nando
                                >> >>
                                >> >> ----- Original Message -----
                                >> >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                                >> >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                                >> >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
                                >> >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
                                >> >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
                                >> >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
                                >> >> in winter then build in summer.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                                >> >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
                                >> >> downtime due to maintenance.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
                                >> >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand
                                > of
                                >> >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
                                >> >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
                                >> >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would
                                > be
                                >> >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
                                >> >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
                                >> >> with some standby ones?
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Thanks for input Nando
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Obi
                                >> >>
                                >> >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                                >> >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                                >> >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                                >> >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                                >> >>
                                >> >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                >> >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Obi:
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
                                >> >> heavy equipment --
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
                                >> >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
                                >> >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                                >> >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
                                >> >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                                > during
                                >> >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
                                >> >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
                                >> >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
                                >> >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
                                >> >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
                                >> >> or use and maintenance .
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
                                >> >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
                                >> >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
                                >> >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
                                >> >> quote for the equipment .
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
                                >> >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
                                >> >> voltage parameters .
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
                                >> >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                                >> >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
                                >> >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
                                >> >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
                                >> >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
                                >> >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Nando
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                >> >>> From: gandor13@
                                >> >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                                >> >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Hello All
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                                >> >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
                                >> >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Community:
                                >> >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                                >> >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                                >> >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
                                >> >> demand at any one time.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Resource:
                                >> >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
                                >> >> forest/lakes) from the community
                                >> >>> Head: 17m
                                >> >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                                >> >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
                                >> >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
                                >> >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily
                                > flow
                                >> >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
                                >> >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
                                >> >> flow duration curve.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                                >> >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                                > (gearbox
                                >> >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> My questions are:
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
                                >> >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
                                >> >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
                                >> >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                                > around
                                >> >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                                > package
                                >> >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
                                >> >> request a custom made governor?
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
                                >> >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
                                >> >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                                >> >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
                                >> >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site
                                > and
                                >> >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is
                                > this
                                >> >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
                                >> >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
                                >> >> generators cannot do that.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
                                >> >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
                                >> >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics
                                > are
                                >> >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to
                                > pick
                                >> >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
                                >> >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
                                >> >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
                                >> >> such things.
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> Obi
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >> >>>
                                >> >>
                                >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >> >>
                                >> >>
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > ------------------------------------
                                >> >
                                >> > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                                >> > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                                >> > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                                >> >
                                >> > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                                > provides
                                >> > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse
                                >> > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                >> >
                                >> > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                                >> >
                                >> > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                                >> > microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • ltlredwagon
                                Frankly, I think Mr. Herring is on to something. So many engineers on this site, and yet you are all are forgetting about Newton s law of universal
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                  Frankly, I think Mr. Herring is on to something. So many engineers on this site, and yet you are all are forgetting about Newton's law of universal gravitation. I know I've been feeling something pulling on my leg ever since John posted, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Apparently, ELSA is working marvelously. Bob



                                  On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Michael Welch wrote:

                                  > I'm just guessing he's "looking for investors" to help give this marvelous invention to the world.
                                  >
                                  > gravity_machine wrote at 01:14 PM 9/6/2010:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                                  > >very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                                  > >that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                                  > >and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.
                                  > >Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                                  > >Answer`s
                                  > >
                                  > > For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                                  > >anyway
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Manfred Mornhinweg
                                  Hi John, ... What s the special thing about your machine, that turns it into an invention ? After all, any normal hydropower installation obtains energy from
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                    Hi John,

                                    > This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this
                                    > very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise
                                    > that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity
                                    > and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.

                                    What's the special thing about your machine, that turns it into an
                                    "invention"? After all, any normal hydropower installation obtains
                                    energy from gravity, and burns no fuel! You would need to be a bit more
                                    specific, so we can see why you claim it's your invention! People have
                                    been building and using gravity-powered machines for many, many years.

                                    Manfred.

                                    ========================
                                    Visit my hobby homepage!
                                    http://ludens.cl
                                    ========================
                                  • Rita M. Rodríguez C.
                                    Dear Art; It is great knowing I have a colleague within the group. That´s the range of effic. of my supply too, a little bit higher for higher outputs. I can
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                      Dear Art;

                                      It is great knowing I have a colleague within the group.

                                      That´s the range of effic. of my supply too, a little bit higher for higher
                                      outputs. I can do it from very low outputs up to 20 MW and very high quality
                                      equipment too. Also feasibilities and markets studies, designs, water to
                                      wire projects; and turnkey projects.

                                      Within hydro in Pelton, crossflow, turgo and Francis, just everything you
                                      want.

                                      Just ask and you´ll get it.

                                      Cu all,

                                      Angel





                                      From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of SUSAN OLARTE
                                      Sent: martes, 07 de septiembre de 2010 05:54 a.m.
                                      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project





                                      Dear all

                                      I supplied European EM for the last 15 years Complete package include
                                      erection test n commisioning .what i gave is budgetary.until we got
                                      the complete specs of the EM base on net head n Fdc ,.EM equipment
                                      turbine with 92 to 93 %Eff Gen 96%Eff .Chinese are catching very fast
                                      price lower by 30%
                                      I supply also this EM lower end Good quality as well.what ever the
                                      customer wants i supply up to 15mw

                                      Art

                                      On 9/5/10, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...
                                      <mailto:rmrc%40soldivexpro.com> > wrote:
                                      > Hi Art:
                                      >
                                      > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but you
                                      keep
                                      > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.
                                      >
                                      > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about certain
                                      > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really
                                      serious.
                                      > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going to
                                      > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in a
                                      > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study with
                                      a
                                      > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the way
                                      > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,
                                      cost
                                      > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.
                                      >
                                      > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of
                                      > harming any group mate.
                                      >
                                      > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM equipment
                                      > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality equipment
                                      > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting; so
                                      do
                                      > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.
                                      >
                                      > Good luck,
                                      >
                                      > Angel
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                      On
                                      > Behalf Of gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                                      > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.
                                      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hey Nando
                                      >
                                      > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So
                                      > I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                                      >
                                      > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force
                                      as
                                      > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are
                                      > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is.
                                      From
                                      > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access
                                      in
                                      > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to
                                      the
                                      > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part
                                      of
                                      > the scheme before any equipment got there.
                                      >
                                      > Dam Site:
                                      > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                                      > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from
                                      > pictures only!)
                                      > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited
                                      > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The
                                      longest
                                      > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km...
                                      > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                                      >
                                      > Structure:
                                      > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                                      > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                                      > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                                      > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                                      > 150m long canal from headpond
                                      >
                                      > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have
                                      > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is
                                      > chosen.
                                      >
                                      > Extra Details:
                                      > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the
                                      least
                                      > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route
                                      > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                                      >
                                      > Proposed Systems:
                                      > ONE 900kW package
                                      > or
                                      > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                                      >
                                      > Construction Repairs:
                                      > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                                      > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                                      > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                                      >
                                      > Electromechanical
                                      > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                                      > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                                      > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                                      > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                                      >
                                      > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be
                                      done
                                      > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on
                                      > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who
                                      have
                                      > worked on similar projects in the past.
                                      >
                                      > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking
                                      into
                                      > consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints
                                      > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close
                                      to
                                      > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum
                                      > baseline.
                                      >
                                      > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for
                                      > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand
                                      > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                                      >
                                      > @ Nando
                                      > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be
                                      > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra
                                      > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them
                                      is
                                      > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some
                                      diesel
                                      > consumption is the priority.
                                      >
                                      > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that
                                      > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible.
                                      > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed
                                      > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good
                                      place
                                      > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an
                                      > update.
                                      >
                                      > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                      > "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Art:
                                      >>
                                      >> The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator
                                      > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the
                                      > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of
                                      > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage --
                                      all
                                      > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due
                                      to
                                      > the long transmission power lines.
                                      >>
                                      >> The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the
                                      step
                                      > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single
                                      > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction
                                      done
                                      > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The
                                      Generator
                                      > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage
                                      > losses due to the long transmission line,
                                      >>
                                      >> that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy
                                      > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum
                                      > power generation --
                                      >>
                                      >> Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an
                                      > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission
                                      > lines with the up/down conversion.
                                      >>
                                      >> Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more
                                      > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
                                      >>
                                      >> The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac
                                      > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different
                                      regulations
                                      > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some
                                      > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                                      >>
                                      >> Nando
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >> From: SUSAN OLARTE
                                      >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                                      >> Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Dear All
                                      >>
                                      >> The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                                      >> Transformer to 220 or
                                      >> 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                                      >>
                                      >> From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator
                                      > Manufacturer
                                      >> responsibility )
                                      >>
                                      >> Art
                                      >>
                                      >> On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                                      >> > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
                                      >> > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Steve Spence
                                      >> > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                      >> > http://www.green-trust.org
                                      >> > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Obi:
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
                                      >> >> more accuracy !!
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (
                                      > 120-0-120)
                                      >> >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
                                      >> >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
                                      >> >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
                                      >> >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what
                                      is
                                      >> >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
                                      >> >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction
                                      in
                                      >> >> the cost of the hydro.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially
                                      if
                                      >> >> fish is present. - ???
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
                                      >> >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                                      >> >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
                                      >> >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
                                      >> >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do
                                      believe
                                      >> >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried
                                      > to
                                      >> >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase
                                      > the
                                      >> >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of
                                      the
                                      >> >> fuel basic cost .
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
                                      >> >> hydro power for the community .
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
                                      >> >> the harvested power .
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel
                                      > and
                                      >> >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                                      >> >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to
                                      > have
                                      >> >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
                                      >> >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines
                                      and
                                      >> >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW )
                                      and
                                      >> >> leave the third for expansion.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
                                      >> >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations
                                      -
                                      >> >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
                                      >> >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                                      >> >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the
                                      business
                                      >> >> anymore.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Do please keep us informed
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Nando
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >> >> From: gandor13@... <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                                      >> >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >> >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                                      >> >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There
                                      are
                                      >> >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
                                      >> >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to
                                      the
                                      >> >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
                                      >> >> in winter then build in summer.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                                      >> >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
                                      >> >> downtime due to maintenance.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
                                      >> >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand
                                      > of
                                      >> >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
                                      >> >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
                                      >> >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would
                                      > be
                                      >> >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
                                      >> >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
                                      >> >> with some standby ones?
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Thanks for input Nando
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Obi
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                                      >> >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                                      >> >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                                      >> >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      >> >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Obi:
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
                                      >> >> heavy equipment --
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
                                      >> >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
                                      >> >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                                      >> >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to
                                      let's
                                      >> >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course
                                      > during
                                      >> >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
                                      >> >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
                                      >> >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
                                      >> >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
                                      >> >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics
                                      and
                                      >> >> or use and maintenance .
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
                                      >> >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed
                                      KW
                                      >> >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
                                      >> >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
                                      >> >> quote for the equipment .
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
                                      >> >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
                                      >> >> voltage parameters .
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
                                      >> >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                                      >> >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
                                      >> >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care
                                      of
                                      >> >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for
                                      heating
                                      >> >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
                                      >> >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Nando
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >> >>> From: gandor13@
                                      >> >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >> >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                                      >> >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Hello All
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                                      >> >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
                                      >> >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Community:
                                      >> >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                                      >> >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                                      >> >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
                                      >> >> demand at any one time.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Resource:
                                      >> >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
                                      >> >> forest/lakes) from the community
                                      >> >>> Head: 17m
                                      >> >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                                      >> >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km
                                      same
                                      >> >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
                                      >> >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily
                                      > flow
                                      >> >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and
                                      drops
                                      >> >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
                                      >> >> flow duration curve.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                                      >> >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -
                                      > (gearbox
                                      >> >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> My questions are:
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
                                      >> >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I
                                      need
                                      >> >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
                                      >> >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed
                                      > around
                                      >> >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor
                                      > package
                                      >> >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
                                      >> >> request a custom made governor?
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
                                      >> >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
                                      >> >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                                      >> >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets
                                      the
                                      >> >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site
                                      > and
                                      >> >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is
                                      > this
                                      >> >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
                                      >> >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
                                      >> >> generators cannot do that.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
                                      >> >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
                                      >> >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics
                                      > are
                                      >> >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to
                                      > pick
                                      >> >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
                                      >> >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
                                      >> >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
                                      >> >> such things.
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> Obi
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >> >>>
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > ------------------------------------
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at
                                      >> > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of
                                      >> > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide!
                                      >> >
                                      >> > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                                      > provides
                                      >> > us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not
                                      endorse
                                      >> > products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                                      >> >
                                      >> > To unsubscribe: send empty message to
                                      >> > microhydro-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Clifford Krolick/ Back Country Excursions
                                      Hey Bob Have you seen it in operation in person on the site? Cliff
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hey Bob

                                        Have you seen it in operation in person on the site?

                                        Cliff
                                        On Sep 7, 2010, at 2:22 PM, ltlredwagon wrote:

                                        > Frankly, I think Mr. Herring is on to something. So many engineers
                                        > on this site, and yet you are all are forgetting about Newton's law
                                        > of universal gravitation. I know I've been feeling something
                                        > pulling on my leg ever since John posted, and I'm sure I'm not the
                                        > only one. Apparently, ELSA is working marvelously. Bob
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Michael Welch wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> I'm just guessing he's "looking for investors" to help give this
                                        >> marvelous invention to the world.
                                        >>
                                        >> gravity_machine wrote at 01:14 PM 9/6/2010:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>> Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at
                                        >>> this
                                        >>> very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep
                                        >>> devise
                                        >>> that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from
                                        >>> Gravity
                                        >>> and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right
                                        >>> now.
                                        >>> Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving
                                        >>> Answer`s
                                        >>>
                                        >>> For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite
                                        >>> anyway
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory
                                        > ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the
                                        > microhydro community world wide!
                                        >
                                        > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who
                                        > provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group
                                        > does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way.
                                        >
                                        > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe: send empty message to microhydro-unsubscribe@...
                                        > ! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • John Herring
                                        depend`s on what size battery bank can  you aford, enough  for a city it would be great. ________________________________ From: Don Jackson
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 8, 2010
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                                          depend`s on what size battery bank can  you aford, enough  for a city it would
                                          be great.




                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Don Jackson <homesteadpower@...>
                                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 4:57:37 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [microhydro] Invention


                                          Cool.  How many watts does this produce and how soon can I have one?






                                          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: gravity_machine@...
                                          Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:14:37 +0000
                                          Subject: [microhydro] Invention






















                                           


                                             
                                               
                                               
                                               

                                          Hello all. This is John D. Herring, Inventor of E.L.S.A. wich at this

                                          very moment is running in my back yard. elsa is a simple cheep devise

                                          that makes ENERGY from GRAVITY. that`s right I said Energy from Gravity

                                          and elsa does NOT burn any fuel of any kind and it`s runnimg right now.

                                          Elsa is my mom`s name But E.L.S.A. stsnd`s for Earth`s Life Saving

                                          Answer`s



                                          For the first time in modern history well sence Ben flew his kite

                                          anyway



                                          John D. Herring



                                          --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, Rita M. Rodríguez C. <rmrc@...>

                                          wrote:

                                          >

                                          > Hi Art:

                                          >

                                          > I have advised you to hire an expert for the study of your site but

                                          you keep

                                          > exchanging information with some fellows from our group.

                                          >

                                          > I´m not against advising anybody looking for a point of view about

                                          certain

                                          > items within hydro but this is quite far from that, this is really

                                          serious.

                                          > You need advice from a seriously engaged person because you are going

                                          to

                                          > receive funding from your government to build a hydropower station in

                                          a

                                          > remote area as I have heard from you, so please do support your study

                                          with a

                                          > person formally engaged with your goals by means of a contract or the

                                          way

                                          > you are able to find because you need to demand this guy for accurate,

                                          cost

                                          > effective and feasible result what you won´t get by email.

                                          >

                                          > This is just a very well intentioned advice; without any intention of

                                          > harming any group mate.

                                          >

                                          > I agree with Nando when he advices you to get offers for the EM

                                          equipment

                                          > from several manufacturers; but be aware; you need high quality

                                          equipment

                                          > for that hydro site what also means low maintenance and long lasting;

                                          so do

                                          > not pick a cheap offer in detriment of quality.

                                          >

                                          > Good luck,

                                          >

                                          > Angel

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          > From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com]

                                          On

                                          > Behalf Of gandor13@...

                                          > Sent: miércoles, 01 de septiembre de 2010 02:19 p.m.

                                          > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                                          > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          > Hey Nando

                                          >

                                          > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the

                                          start. So

                                          > I'll try and clear up confusion now.

                                          >

                                          > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving

                                          force as

                                          > cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location

                                          are

                                          > 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it

                                          is. From

                                          > the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero

                                          access in

                                          > the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community

                                          to the

                                          > site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be

                                          part of

                                          > the scheme before any equipment got there.

                                          >

                                          > Dam Site:

                                          > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated

                                          > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from

                                          > pictures only!)

                                          > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an

                                          uninhabited

                                          > area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The

                                          longest

                                          > stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately

                                          5km...

                                          > it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.

                                          >

                                          > Structure:

                                          > This is still in place from the previous operation.

                                          > Concrete dam, 5mx30m

                                          > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)

                                          > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks

                                          > 150m long canal from headpond

                                          >

                                          > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will

                                          have

                                          > to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what

                                          equipment is

                                          > chosen.

                                          >

                                          > Extra Details:

                                          > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the

                                          least

                                          > 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The

                                          route

                                          > avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.

                                          >

                                          > Proposed Systems:

                                          > ONE 900kW package

                                          > or

                                          > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package

                                          >

                                          > Construction Repairs:

                                          > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??

                                          > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??

                                          > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??

                                          >

                                          > Electromechanical

                                          > Penstock Replacement $$/??

                                          > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??

                                          > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??

                                          > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??

                                          >

                                          > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be

                                          done

                                          > to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially

                                          posted on

                                          > the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who

                                          have

                                          > worked on similar projects in the past.

                                          >

                                          > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what?

                                          taking into

                                          > consideration transportation constraints, construction time

                                          constraints

                                          > (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme

                                          close to

                                          > main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute

                                          minimum

                                          > baseline.

                                          >

                                          > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for

                                          > electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I

                                          understand

                                          > that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?

                                          >

                                          > @ Nando

                                          > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans

                                          can be

                                          > agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables,

                                          extra

                                          > turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for

                                          them is

                                          > the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some

                                          diesel

                                          > consumption is the priority.

                                          >

                                          > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that

                                          > information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not

                                          possible.

                                          > Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed

                                          > pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good

                                          place

                                          > for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post

                                          an

                                          > update.

                                          >

                                          > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                                          <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ,

                                          > "Nando" nando37@ wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > Art:

                                          > >

                                          > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator

                                          > manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the

                                          > delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the

                                          capability of

                                          > varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage

                                          -- all

                                          > this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement

                                          due to

                                          > the long transmission power lines.

                                          > >

                                          > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also

                                          the step

                                          > up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a

                                          single

                                          > community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and

                                          correction done

                                          > by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The

                                          Generator

                                          > voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of

                                          voltage

                                          > losses due to the long transmission line,

                                          > >

                                          > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too

                                          heavy

                                          > diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at

                                          maximum

                                          > power generation --

                                          > >

                                          > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an

                                          > overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total

                                          transmission

                                          > lines with the up/down conversion.

                                          > >

                                          > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 %

                                          more

                                          > to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power

                                          lines

                                          > >

                                          > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117

                                          Vac

                                          > with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different

                                          regulations

                                          > from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in

                                          some

                                          > places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .

                                          > >

                                          > > Nando

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > ----- Original Message -----

                                          > > From: SUSAN OLARTE

                                          > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM

                                          > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Dear All

                                          > >

                                          > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down

                                          > > Transformer to 220 or

                                          > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility

                                          > >

                                          > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator

                                          > Manufacturer

                                          > > responsibility )

                                          > >

                                          > > Art

                                          > >

                                          > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence steve@ wrote:

                                          > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center

                                          tapped

                                          > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.

                                          > > >

                                          > > > Steve Spence

                                          > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency

                                          > > > http://www.green-trust.org

                                          > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/

                                          > > >

                                          > > >

                                          > > >

                                          > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Obi:

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a

                                          bit of

                                          > > >> more accuracy !!

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac (

                                          > 120-0-120)

                                          > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase --

                                          Make

                                          > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3

                                          phase

                                          > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages

                                          -- to

                                          > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and

                                          what is

                                          > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage

                                          to

                                          > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good

                                          reduction in

                                          > > >> the cost of the hydro.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left ,

                                          specially if

                                          > > >> fish is present. - ???

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but

                                          with a

                                          > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .

                                          > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power

                                          increase to

                                          > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to

                                          be

                                          > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do

                                          believe

                                          > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling

                                          buried

                                          > to

                                          > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may

                                          increase

                                          > the

                                          > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase

                                          of the

                                          > > >> fuel basic cost .

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest

                                          possible

                                          > > >> hydro power for the community .

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do

                                          maximize

                                          > > >> the harvested power .

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of

                                          diesel

                                          > and

                                          > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its

                                          > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest

                                          to

                                          > have

                                          > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs .

                                          and the

                                          > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3

                                          turbines and

                                          > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW

                                          ) and

                                          > > >> leave the third for expansion.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present

                                          winter

                                          > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing

                                          limitations -

                                          > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality

                                          like a

                                          > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the

                                          > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the

                                          business

                                          > > >> anymore.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Do please keep us informed

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Nando

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> ----- Original Message -----

                                          > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>

                                          > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                                          <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM

                                          > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada.

                                          There are

                                          > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the

                                          year,

                                          > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access

                                          to the

                                          > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport

                                          equipment

                                          > > >> in winter then build in summer.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on

                                          > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any

                                          hydro

                                          > > >> downtime due to maintenance.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is

                                          outback

                                          > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak

                                          demand

                                          > of

                                          > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep

                                          enough to

                                          > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as

                                          additional

                                          > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which

                                          would

                                          > be

                                          > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen

                                          sets or

                                          > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen

                                          sets

                                          > > >> with some standby ones?

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Thanks for input Nando

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> Obi

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before

                                          > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60

                                          > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m

                                          > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                                          <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,

                                          > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Obi:

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to

                                          bring

                                          > > >> heavy equipment --

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be

                                          harvested,

                                          > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably

                                          better to

                                          > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add

                                          > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to

                                          let's

                                          > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course

                                          > during

                                          > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order

                                          but

                                          > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he

                                          is

                                          > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send

                                          any

                                          > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as

                                          well

                                          > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for

                                          logistics and

                                          > > >> or use and maintenance .

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote

                                          from

                                          > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per

                                          installed KW

                                          > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the

                                          site

                                          > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give

                                          you a

                                          > > >> quote for the equipment .

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality

                                          right

                                          > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the

                                          high

                                          > > >> voltage parameters .

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at

                                          all if

                                          > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual

                                          > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the

                                          diesel

                                          > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take

                                          care of

                                          > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for

                                          heating

                                          > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the

                                          cost

                                          > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro

                                          system .

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Nando

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> ----- Original Message -----

                                          > > >>> From: gandor13@

                                          > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com

                                          <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>

                                          > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM

                                          > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Hello All

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was

                                          > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some

                                          things.

                                          > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Community:

                                          > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW

                                          > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation

                                          > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet

                                          the

                                          > > >> demand at any one time.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Resource:

                                          > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away

                                          (through

                                          > > >> forest/lakes) from the community

                                          > > >>> Head: 17m

                                          > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s

                                          > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby

                                          (50km same

                                          > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data

                                          along

                                          > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the

                                          daily

                                          > flow

                                          > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and

                                          drops

                                          > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking

                                          at the

                                          > > >> flow duration curve.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the

                                          > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed -

                                          > (gearbox

                                          > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this

                                          application).

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> My questions are:

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet

                                          aisles"

                                          > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point

                                          I need

                                          > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor

                                          would

                                          > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed

                                          > around

                                          > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor

                                          > package

                                          > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do

                                          you

                                          > > >> request a custom made governor?

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought

                                          that

                                          > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of

                                          the

                                          > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a

                                          > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that

                                          meets the

                                          > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between

                                          site

                                          > and

                                          > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand.

                                          Is

                                          > this

                                          > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between

                                          50% to

                                          > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that

                                          hydro

                                          > > >> generators cannot do that.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages

                                          that

                                          > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find

                                          costs

                                          > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance

                                          specifics

                                          > are

                                          > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need

                                          to

                                          > pick

                                          > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of

                                          lines/km,

                                          > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've

                                          searched

                                          > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles

                                          listing

                                          > > >> such things.

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> Obi

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          > > >>>

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >>

                                          > > >

                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                        • gs_ranjitkar
                                          Hi, I just visited this group after few months. Seems like an interesting hydro project. I could not figure out the status of the project, is it still at
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 17, 2010
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                                            Hi,

                                            I just visited this group after few months. Seems like an interesting hydro project. I could not figure out the status of the project, is it still at pre-feasibility stage? I may be in position to provide additonal information to plan this project.


                                            Ghanashyam

                                            --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Obi:
                                            >
                                            > I understood when you said remote area, in Canada and how the transport is , via frozen roads in winter and airplane for the rest and isolation during the winter.
                                            >
                                            > You did not report the site past capabilities -- I think that is needed to have.
                                            >
                                            > I may start by saying the turbine in the 1000 KW = 1 MW is in the areas of 500 - 750 $/Kw -- the remoteness of the dam and the isolation does demand maximizing the design with goals with remote control and as well in site personnel control .
                                            >
                                            > In addition the need to have excess equipment, this, if lack of spare power and parts may have been one of the problems with those sites long term that may have caused that they are not longer maintained and forgotten,
                                            >
                                            > Under Water power transmission is now a matured system and some countries are looking to supply power to some of the islands in the Caribbean some 500 - 900 + KM away to reduce the use of carbon fuels and going green.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The restoration is going to be as costly as building a new one if the site has been forgotten for several years.
                                            >
                                            > Suggestion of repairs costs is not possible because there are too many factors not included in your message that was so simple that the replies were directed that way.
                                            >
                                            > You are still insisting in the power levels that are borderline and no inclusion of excess power needed to be generated to compensate the transmission losses .
                                            >
                                            > Also, one thing that you may forget, the site may require an emergency hydro generator around 100 or so KW in case of needing to shut down all the turbines .
                                            >
                                            > The idea of having extra power generation capabilities is a necessity for such remote site -- the cost is low if it is done well -- and the added cost of the new extra future turbine and generator to be connected to the common panel control ( designed to have the extra turbine ) some years later, and the addition will be easy and less costly or very expensive if such arrangement is not done initially.
                                            >
                                            > This micro hydro group seems that does not have members with large hydro industrial installation or at least non want to come out of the closet and mine experience is now too old to be efficient and practical.
                                            >
                                            > Good luck and let us know about it.
                                            >
                                            > Nando
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: gandor13@...
                                            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:18 PM
                                            > Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hey Nando
                                            >
                                            > My apologies, I should have been as precise as possible from the start. So I'll try and clear up confusion now.
                                            >
                                            > The project is a "restoration/refurbishment", which is the driving force as cost is everything. Like I said the community and the site location are 'remote'. The word remote does not fully explain just how remote it is. From the closest town it is a 300km drive on winter roads (meaning zero access in the summer except via airplane) to the community. From the community to the site location there are "zero" roads. So a dirt access road would be part of the scheme before any equipment got there.
                                            >
                                            > Dam Site:
                                            > Gross Head and Average Flow details have already been stated
                                            > Head drop spans at the most 300m but it could be less. (Judging from pictures only!)
                                            > The dimensions of the head pond again are unknown. This is an uninhabited area so finding government records on such things are difficult. The longest stretch of the lake is 11km and the widest stretch is approximately 5km... it is NOT a rectangular shaped lake. Depth = unknown.
                                            >
                                            > Structure:
                                            > This is still in place from the previous operation.
                                            > Concrete dam, 5mx30m
                                            > 3 spillway bays (4.28m) and three intake gates (2.4m)
                                            > Two 1.8m diameter 36.5m long penstocks
                                            > 150m long canal from headpond
                                            >
                                            > Nando you rightly ask why keep a 1.8m diameter when the penstock will have to be replaced anyway. I suppose the diameter depends on what equipment is chosen.
                                            >
                                            > Extra Details:
                                            > Transmission Crosses thick forest and lakes. Watercrossings are at the least 500m long at the most 2km long, depending on the route taken. The route avoiding water completely is just too long to even talk about.
                                            >
                                            > Proposed Systems:
                                            > ONE 900kW package
                                            > or
                                            > Two 1100kW & 1200kW package
                                            >
                                            > Construction Repairs:
                                            > Main Dam Repairs: Grouting to solidify structure $$/??
                                            > Headworks Replacement: New stop logs and new canal $$/??
                                            > Powerhouse upgrades: $$/??
                                            >
                                            > Electromechanical
                                            > Penstock Replacement $$/??
                                            > Turbine/Generator Package (each scenario) $$/??
                                            > Transmission Line (per km) $$/??
                                            > Remaining Electrical Components (switches, transformers etc) $$/??
                                            >
                                            > Now I understand that a 'complete' and detailed study would need to be done to find detailed cost and obtain contracts etc. When I initially posted on the forum I had hoped to get "general" cost estimates from experts who have worked on similar projects in the past.
                                            >
                                            > Example: The construction repairs would cost approximately what? taking into consideration transportation constraints, construction time constraints (work in hot months only) etc. If this was a grid connected scheme close to main roads how much would that cost to give an idea of absolute minimum baseline.
                                            >
                                            > Example 2: I was hoping I could get a high end vs low end estimate for electrical equipment. If detailed breakdowns are not possible I understand that. However a general cost range would be nice. $1000/kW ? $6000/kW?
                                            >
                                            > @ Nando
                                            > Funding for such a project is not 100% guaranteed. Grants and loans can be agreed upon but money is by no means a certain. Underground cables, extra turbines for future community growth are all sound... but paying for them is the issue. So trying to find the most cost-effective way offset some diesel consumption is the priority.
                                            >
                                            > Either way, I thank all the helpful comments but I realize now that information is scarce and the estimates I was hoping for are not possible. Someone rightfully said that an expert is required for a very detailed pre-feasibility. Thanks to everyone for their input... this is a good place for ideas and opinion swapping. If something major happens I'll post an update.
                                            >
                                            > --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Art:
                                            > >
                                            > > The responsibility of the voltage control maybe on the generator manufacturer BUT the additional control may be needed to stabilize the delivered voltage at the loads with the generator having the capability of varying its output voltage as required to have a final stable voltage -- all this in reality needs an over all design to get the best arrangement due to the long transmission power lines.
                                            > >
                                            > > The step up voltage varies somewhat in different countries - also the step up and step down ratio may be varied , in this case since it is a single community , per se, the ratio can be a bit more straight and correction done by varying the generator output voltage due to load changes -- The Generator voltage correction detecting the generator current with a curve of voltage losses due to the long transmission line,
                                            > >
                                            > > that in this case 13.8 KV the transmission cables may require a too heavy diameter cabling --- (2200 KW/ 13.8 ^3 )/3= 53 amps per phase at maximum power generation --
                                            > >
                                            > > Not more than 3 % power losses, maybe 5 % for such 30 + KM I see an overall power losses in areas of 7 to 8 % due to the total transmission lines with the up/down conversion.
                                            > >
                                            > > Which calls for a hydro system not for 2200 KW but about 20 to 30 % more to allow some additional power losses due to the transmission power lines
                                            > >
                                            > > The voltage for the house holds is in reality with the basis of 117 Vac with a deviation +/- 3 volts that varies locally with different regulations from place to place allowing some different % changes , reason why in some places they say 120 volts and in some 115 Volts .
                                            > >
                                            > > Nando
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: SUSAN OLARTE
                                            > > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:16 AM
                                            > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear All
                                            > >
                                            > > The hydro manufacturer is only up to High voltage 13.8KV Step down
                                            > > Transformer to 220 or
                                            > > 110Vac is for the Developer or Distribution Company or Utility
                                            > >
                                            > > From Turbine Generator to Step up Transformer (Turbine Generator Manufacturer
                                            > > responsibility )
                                            > >
                                            > > Art
                                            > >
                                            > > On 8/31/10, Steve Spence <steve@> wrote:
                                            > > > Canada is the same power as the US, single phase 240vac, center tapped
                                            > > > as you described for 120vac per leg.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Steve Spence
                                            > > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                            > > > http://www.green-trust.org
                                            > > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > On 08/31/2010 09:59 AM, Nando wrote:
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Obi:
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Wow !! You are in the freezing zone -- Now we can point with a bit of
                                            > > >> more accuracy !!
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> What is the volume of the reservoir ( head pond ) ?.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> The Canada Electricity is NOT 120 Vac, 60 HZ, it is 230 Vac ( 120-0-120)
                                            > > >> , 60 HZ and in addition the generated power should be 3 phase -- Make
                                            > > >> sure -- the community will thank you deeply when available .
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> You need to have the substations capable of supplying higher 3 phase
                                            > > >> voltage , like 380 - 408 Vac -- depends on Canada Grid voltages -- to
                                            > > >> have ready available transformers and ancillary equipment.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> By the way, what is the growth of the community population, and what is
                                            > > >> the growth of the industry there, which you can use as a leverage to
                                            > > >> apply the necessity of maximizing the hydro power.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> The penstock is short - around 38 meters -- that is a good reduction in
                                            > > >> the cost of the hydro.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Do tell why the penstock = 1.8 meters !! --
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Do detail the Head Gate Space = 2.6 M^2
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 5 % left flow, I think that it is too little volume left , specially if
                                            > > >> fish is present. - ???
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Please , examine well and think, NOT on One or Two Turbines but with a
                                            > > >> capacity to Three turbines for Winter use .
                                            > > >> The transmission designed for maximum future planned power increase to
                                            > > >> avoid additional costs, in this case the major cost is going to be
                                            > > >> manual labor . The area is of heavy snow and ICE therefore I do believe
                                            > > >> that this isolated system should have the transmission cabling buried to
                                            > > >> protect from the Old Man Winter which is very mean !!!.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Your place have a problem, yearly, diesel delivery that may increase the
                                            > > >> cost , probably 200% or higher plus the possible yearly increase of the
                                            > > >> fuel basic cost .
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Due the analysis to show the necessity to produce the highest possible
                                            > > >> hydro power for the community .
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> If the Canadian government is supplying the finances then do maximize
                                            > > >> the harvested power .
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> In term of capital costs, cheaper may not be the inclusion of diesel and
                                            > > >> the fuel usage ( many years = long term considerations) with its
                                            > > >> seasonal problems and periodic heavy maintenance .
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> This installation do need the top of the line -- I would suggest to have
                                            > > >> capacity for 3 turbines and each turbine good for 1200 + KWs . and the
                                            > > >> controls from the beginning to have the capacity for the 3 turbines and
                                            > > >> order initially to cover the Peak Winter needs plus a % ( 3000 KW ) and
                                            > > >> leave the third for expansion.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> I would prefer to have turbine/generator to cover the present winter
                                            > > >> peak power for each turbine - all depend on the financing limitations -
                                            > > >> though, You need to look for the Diesel to cover an eventuality like a
                                            > > >> winter damage of the substations or a land slide damaging the
                                            > > >> underground transmission cabling or like emergencies.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> This site is of great interest for me, too bad I am not in the business
                                            > > >> anymore.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Do please keep us informed
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Nando
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > >> From: gandor13@ <mailto:gandor13%40rogers.com>
                                            > > >> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:11 PM
                                            > > >> Subject: [microhydro] Re: University Hydro Project
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 1. The community is located in a remote area Ontario, Canada. There are
                                            > > >> winter roads to bring heavy equipment for short windows of the year,
                                            > > >> however the majority of the year there is no road access. Access to the
                                            > > >> community is possible via sea plane. Might have to transport equipment
                                            > > >> in winter then build in summer.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 2. 5% of natural river flow must be left.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 3. Having an extra turbine is always good but that will depend on
                                            > > >> package costs. I was thinking of using the diesels cover any hydro
                                            > > >> downtime due to maintenance.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 4. Transmission distance is 27km plus or minus 3km. This is outback
                                            > > >> country though. dirt roads and dense forests.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> 5. Yes you're correct. The average flow is enough to meet peak demand of
                                            > > >> the community, even during winter lows the head pond is deep enough to
                                            > > >> draw from but that would require two turbines as well as additional
                                            > > >> equipment. In terms of capital cost and maintenance costs which would be
                                            > > >> cheaper; having 700kW hydro parallel to a couple of diesel gen sets or
                                            > > >> say two 1.1MW rated hydros and replace the continuous diesel gen sets
                                            > > >> with some standby ones?
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Thanks for input Nando
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> Obi
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> P.S. Info I should have added before
                                            > > >> Voltage/Frequency - 120/60
                                            > > >> Penstock Design Criteria: Diameter 1.8m Length 36.5m
                                            > > >> Head Gate Space: 2.6m^2
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> --- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > >> "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Obi:
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Where is the community located , and how is the road system to bring
                                            > > >> heavy equipment --
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> What % of the river can be used ?.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> with about 2+ M^3/s and 17 meter head , 2200 KW can be harvested,
                                            > > >> though since the average flow is around 15 M^3/s is probably better to
                                            > > >> produce more energy for the future or to set the penstock to add
                                            > > >> additional turbine later like if in the summer the river drops to let's
                                            > > >> say 7 M^3/s to utilize 33.5 M^3/s during the summer and of course during
                                            > > >> winter to produced the top power needed.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> There is a fellow in Sweden that produce such equipment ON order but
                                            > > >> you have not given enough information to send the info to him, he is
                                            > > >> busy since his equipment is top of the line and I would not send any
                                            > > >> info to him unless I see that he may be a possibility for you.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Kaplan may be one better for you -- this message BCC to you as well
                                            > > >> with an attachment for you to peruse.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Also the possibility of having more than one turbine for logistics and
                                            > > >> or use and maintenance .
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> For this power level it is best to try to set up for a quote from
                                            > > >> several companies -- also the cost of the hydro system per installed KW
                                            > > >> could vary from let's say 1000 to 2500 U$D/KW, all depends on the site
                                            > > >> itself -- You have not given info to attract companies to give you a
                                            > > >> quote for the equipment .
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Transmission cost is another independent factor and in reality right
                                            > > >> now you have not indicated the real distance to establish the high
                                            > > >> voltage parameters .
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> It seems that You may not need to have the Diesel operating at all if
                                            > > >> the site can harvest the peak power you indicate, for a dual
                                            > > >> hydro+Diesel system --probably the better idea is to vary the diesel
                                            > > >> power and peak the hydro turbine with the hydro turbine to take care of
                                            > > >> the down peak values with the ELC system.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> It seems that during winter the high KW may have certain % for heating
                                            > > >> -- which could be provided by the ELC if necessary.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> AGAIN for this hydro size NO company advertises prices since the cost
                                            > > >> depends on the site itself that require changes in the hydro system .
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Nando
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > >>> From: gandor13@
                                            > > >>> To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:25 AM
                                            > > >>> Subject: [microhydro] University Hydro Project
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Hello All
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> I've been working on this project for a little bit now and I was
                                            > > >> hoping I could get some input/help from the community on some things.
                                            > > >> Here is the basic info of the project.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Community:
                                            > > >>> Winter peak approx 2200kW and summer low 600kW
                                            > > >>> Its an isolated community currently on 100% diesel generation
                                            > > >>> It has more than two generators but only two are needed to meet the
                                            > > >> demand at any one time.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Resource:
                                            > > >>> Old Dam that was in operation years ago. About 30km away (through
                                            > > >> forest/lakes) from the community
                                            > > >>> Head: 17m
                                            > > >>> Average Flow: 15-20m3/s
                                            > > >>> Data on the river was insufficient so I had to use a nearby (50km same
                                            > > >> water basin) government water station with high resolution data along
                                            > > >> with monthly averages at the site location to approximate the daily flow
                                            > > >> through the dam. The river basically ends at the dam location and drops
                                            > > >> 100m in its 100km length so its a bit of a flashy river looking at the
                                            > > >> flow duration curve.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> I've narrowed down the turbines that would be suitable for the
                                            > > >> application (Francis or Kaplan depending on the turbine speed - (gearbox
                                            > > >> or belt drive I don't know which is more likely in this application).
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> My questions are:
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> 1. Is there anywhere I can basically "browse the internet aisles"
                                            > > >> looking at the prices of various turbine packages. At this point I need
                                            > > >> to see how much a Francis that comes with an electronic governor would
                                            > > >> compare cost wise to one that uses a mechanical one. I've browsed around
                                            > > >> but I'm yet to find a company that advertises a turbine+governor package
                                            > > >> and the cost. Or when you make an order [in the real world] do you
                                            > > >> request a custom made governor?
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> 2. When I first looked at the community's load profile I thought that
                                            > > >> even though the hydro site can actually meet the entire demand of the
                                            > > >> community it would have to be sized at 600 or 700kW to provide a
                                            > > >> baseload and operate in parallel with a diesel generator that meets the
                                            > > >> rest of the demand. I thought this because the distance between site and
                                            > > >> community wouldn't allow for fast enough changes to load demand. Is this
                                            > > >> correct? I know diesel generators can operate anywhere between 50% to
                                            > > >> over 100% of their ratings but I was under the impression that hydro
                                            > > >> generators cannot do that.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> 3. In addition to finding costings for various water packages that
                                            > > >> meet my project's needs. I'm also looking for where I can find costs
                                            > > >> (ball parks) on the other electrical elements. The finance specifics are
                                            > > >> not a real issue. When i pick the transmission voltage I'll need to pick
                                            > > >> a suitable transformer (and its cost range), the cost of lines/km,
                                            > > >> switchgear (operating @ that transmission voltage) etc. I've searched
                                            > > >> and searched but am yet to find websites or journal articles listing
                                            > > >> such things.
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> I hope I haven't rambled. Thanks for any help
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> Obi
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ------------------------------------
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