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RE: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

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  • Rita M. Rodríguez C.
    Hi, there is a fast way to calculate estimate the optimal diameter for pressure pipes D= sqrt(Q/pi). The result is acceptably accurate. For 175 l/s, the result
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi, there is a fast way to calculate estimate the optimal diameter for
      pressure pipes D= sqrt(Q/pi). The result is acceptably accurate.

      For 175 l/s, the result is 236 mm, and the closer standardized diameter to
      that is 250 mm.

      Hope this might help.

      Angel





      From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Nando
      Sent: miércoles, 30 de junio de 2010 09:51 p.m.
      To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing





      BOBBY:

      I do not have the time to spend and run the calculations to check your
      design .

      Is this the first time you calculate a Banki ? .

      Nando

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: SUSAN OLARTE
      To: Nando ; microhydro
      Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:03 AM
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

      Dear Nando

      We came out to runner design for crossflow 200MM Diameter x 300Mm
      length with 21
      Blade or vane for 15 Kwe net Power Pt 16 to 17kw RPM will be 600 to 700

      We are doing Frame sizing same Runner Diameter will just increase the Length
      like 200MM Diameter start from 100MM lenth 150MM,200MM,250MM,300MM,400MM

      Our next Design is 250MM Diameter runner x 200MM Length

      Hope this will be ok

      Regards

      Bobby

      On 6/28/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> > wrote:
      > SUSAN:
      >
      > Visit : http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html
      >
      > To maximize the power you need to reduce the head losses due to friction
      and
      > with a 300 mm pipe the head losses are 0.5 meter, for 250 mm , loss is 1.2
      > meters
      >
      > There You can calculate the losses and how to improve the design,-- you
      need
      > at least 350 mm ( loss 0..24 meter) to maximize the power harvested -- to
      > minimize the head loss. -
      >
      > All depends on the pipe cost versus the generated power that can be
      > estimated by calculating the different power levels with different pipe
      > diameters.
      >
      > Also, you can down load the XCEL Program to put it in your computer for
      > local use;.the site has as well, many other technical information like how
      > to convert from English to Metric systems., and many other technical
      > disciplines
      >
      > 17 KW output if you are very careful in the design of the Turbine with
      very
      > tight runner to casing spacing in the order of about 0,3 mm and the runner
      > blades are well formed and the Nozzle area placement has been optimize for
      > this head to be able to harvest the energy when the water passes and exits
      > through the opposite side of the runner.
      >
      > Some people do have a lot of problems with the design and the transition
      > from circular to square or rectangular going to the Banki and the angle of
      > entrance to the Banki which has to be considered carefully to obtain
      maximum
      > harvesting ( this is head sensitive = WATER velocity ).
      >
      > Do you have drawings of the turbine manufacture ?. This to see if you have
      > a good working Turbine .
      >
      > I see around 15 to 17 KW. - but toward the lower value -- .
      >
      > Lastly, you can as well translate the web page to some other languages ,
      see
      > bottom of page .
      >
      > Nando
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: SUSAN OLARTE
      > To: microhydro
      > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:38 PM
      > Subject: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear fellow Member
      >
      > We had a project 16kw Crossflow Turbine for a Resorts
      >
      > I would like to check this Pipe sizing Our Calculation is between
      > 250MM to 300MM Inside
      > Diameter PVC Pipe,. Penstock length is 60 meters With out Forbay and Surge
      > tank
      >
      > Please advice us Velocity of the water for this Project
      >
      > Our data is 15 meters Head net Q discharge i 150 to 175 liters/sec Pt 17Kw
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Bobby
      >
      > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
      <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
      > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:52:53 +0800 (SGT)
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > To Nando :
      >
      > Sorry I
      > was wrong write the formula of velocity (not
      > accurate) :
      > v (velocity of water ) = D / T
      > Should be is ;
      > v (velocity of water ) = phi * D / T
      > D = ( v * T) / phi
      > then:
      > E =1/2 * density * phi * D * A * v ^2
      > E = 1/2 *density * phi *( v * T / phi) * A * v ^ 2
      > E = 500 *
      > v ^ 3 *A * T
      >
      > Best regards
      > Ahmad
      >
      > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
      >
      > --- On Sun, 6/27/10, ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
      <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
      >
      > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
      <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 9:03 AM
      >
      > To Nando :
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > for the correction.
      >
      > Please corrected me again because it
      >
      > will increase my knowledge.
      >
      > My understanding
      >
      > so far is as follows (maybe I misunderstood).
      >
      > E (Kinetic
      >
      > energy) = 1 / 2 * M * v ^ 2
      >
      > M = mass
      >
      > of water (kg)
      >
      > v = velocity of water (m/s)
      >
      > M (mass, kg) = density (1000 kg / m ^ 3) * V
      >
      > (volume, m ^ 3)
      >
      > V (volume, m^3) = phi (3.14) * D
      >
      > turbine (m) * A (area of blade, m ^ 2)
      >
      > v (velocity of water, m/s) = D turbine (m) / T (time, s)
      >
      > D turbine, m = v
      >
      > (m / s) * T (time, s)
      >
      > E =1
      >
      > / 2 * M * v ^ 2
      >
      > E =1
      >
      > / 2 * density * ( V ) * v ^2
      >
      > E = 1
      >
      > / 2 * density * ( phi * D * A) * v ^ 2
      >
      > E = 1570 * (D) * A * v ^ 2
      >
      > E= 1570 *(
      >
      > v * T ) * A* v ^2
      >
      > E = 1570 * v ^3 * A *
      >
      > T (joule)
      >
      > P( Power) watt = E (joule) / T (sec)
      >
      > Ahmad
      >
      > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
      >
      > --- On Sat, 6/26/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
      > wrote:
      >
      > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
      >
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
      >
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > Date: Saturday, June 26, 2010, 6:21 AM
      >
      > Ahmad:
      >
      > Yes, I am quite well aware of what the barrel is.
      >
      > Also the formula since I have used for many decades but you need to
      > correct it , V^3 and NOT V^2.
      >
      > Do you care to tell me how you are going to measure the water volume
      > and how energy is captured by the barrel specially when the barrel is
      > full of air and floating on the river, assume a certain depth on the
      > chevron undulations the barrel has to allow you how to calculate the
      > harvested energy.
      >
      > Nando
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > From: ahmad suhendra
      >
      > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:01 PM
      >
      > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
      >
      > To Nando :
      >
      > This turbine is known as kinetic hydro turbine or zero head turbine ( the
      >
      > same as wind turbine )
      >
      > The turbine power (Et) is:
      >
      > Et (joule or watt.sec) = n * (1 / 2) * m (kg) * V(m/s) ^ 2
      >
      > Where :
      >
      > (n ) is the turbine efficiency and as fixed variable because the type
      > of turbine is fixed.
      >
      > (m) is the mass of water that hit the blade and as a fixed variable
      > because the blade area is fixed.
      >
      > (V) is the velocity of the water and as a changed variable because
      > depending on river flow conditions.
      >
      > (From the equation , we can calculate the power generated by
      > determining the mass of water used (affecting blade dimensions) if the
      > velocity of water has been known)
      >
      > The weakness of this turbine is:
      >
      > This turbine is very difficult to control if the turbine is placed in
      > the river body, because the flow was always changing so that the
      > velocity would be changed too and is very dangerous if a large flood
      > occurred because many stone, wood, or trash, which carried into the
      > flow that can damage the turbine.
      >
      > Ahmad
      >
      > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
      >
      > --- On Fri, 6/25/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
      > wrote:
      >
      > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
      >
      > Subject: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
      >
      > To: "MICROHYDRO" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> >
      >
      > Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 8:18 PM
      >
      > To All:
      >
      > I have received a request to give an opinion on the HEB Barrel , if
      >
      > interested visit : www.hydro-electric-barrel.com
      >
      > Presently it is what we can call : Vaporware -
      >
      > It is just a rendering, it does not exist yet and read where it says :
      >
      > "elimination of the bow wave in front of the barrel as it rotates at the
      >
      > same speed as the flow of water" -- this statement alone is wrong, by
      >
      > definition for the barrel to be able to extract power from the water it
      > has
      >
      > to give a "resistance " to the water, which implies that it has to rotate
      > at
      >
      > a lower velocity than the water velocity --
      >
      > In addition planetary gears = higher price cost .
      >
      > I do not see this product to be a good one in a long time if ever. ---
      >
      > Efficiency and power harvesting may be lower than normal devices due to
      > the
      >
      > concept of the barrel riding the water with very low harvesting area which
      >
      > seems to be the width of the barrel times the floating area, not greater
      >
      > than 30 to 45 degrees .
      >
      > Some of the renderings show an ocean concept that do make the system quite
      >
      > expensive where the anchoring device to the bottom of the sea may cost
      > much
      >
      > more than the "barrel Turbine" it self.
      >
      > Any comments from anyone ???
      >
      > Nando
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • SUSAN OLARTE
      Dear Ahmad Thank you so Much for Your computation is very Good excellent.But you compute it on 60 meters Penstock length with 6% losses for 300mm ID Pipe.What
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Ahmad

        Thank you so Much for Your computation is very Good excellent.But
        you compute it on
        60 meters Penstock length with 6% losses for 300mm ID Pipe.What about
        120 meters it will double the Losses. Do we need 350mm ID Pipe

        Do you do MicrohydroBusiness where is your Location Address


        Regards


        Bobby



        On 6/28/10, ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Susan Olarte,
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In order to calculate the diameter of penstocks, your need to use the
        > maximum flow of 175 liters / s or 0.175 m ^
        > 3/ s .
        >
        > A).The
        > data you provide are as follows:
        >
        >
        >
        > 1). Flow (Qp) = 0.175 m ^ 3 / s
        >
        > 2). Head netto (H) = 15 m
        >
        > 3). Lenght of penstocks (Lp) = 60 m
        >
        > 4). Inside diameter, (Dp) = 250 mm to 300 mm
        >
        > 5). P=16 kW ( We don't review)
        >
        > B).Water velocity
        > in penstocks ( V )
        >
        > V (m / s) = 0.125 (2 * 9.8 * 15)
        > ^ 0.5 = 2.143 m/s
        >
        > (Permissible velocity in Penstocks, V (m / s) = 0.125* (2* g* H) ^
        > 0.5
        >
        > Ref: P J Bier ,USBR 1961)
        >
        >
        >
        > C).Inside diameter of penstocks (Dp)
        >
        > Dp, m = (1.273 * Qp / V) ^ 0.5
        >
        > Dp, m = (1.273 * 0.175 / 2.143) ^
        > 0.5 = 0.32 m or 320 mm
        >
        >
        >
        > D). Rough estimate of penstocks head losses using Manning’s formula
        >
        > (Not including loss of the trash rack, entrance,
        > bend, sudden contraction and expansion etc)
        >
        > For Dp =
        > 320 mm
        >
        > Manning
        > coefficient (n) for PVC = 0.009
        >
        > Head loss = [(10.29 * n ^ 2 * Qp ^
        > 2) / 5.333 ^ Dp] Lp
        >
        > Head loss = [(10.29 * 0.009 ^2
        > * 0.175 ^ 2) / 0.320 ^ 5.333)] * 60 = 0.67 m
        >
        > percentage of head loss, % H_loss) = (Head Loss / Head Gross) * 100 %=
        > 0.67/(15+0.67) * 100 % = 4.3 %
        >
        > With a similar calculation,
        >
        > For Dp =
        > 300 mm
        >
        > % H_loss = 0.94/(15+0.94) * 100% = 6.0 %
        >
        >
        >
        > For Dp = 250 mm
        >
        > % H_loss = 2.5/(15+2.5) * 100% = 14.0 %
        >
        >
        > For crossflow turbine, usually a
        > maximum of “ % H_loss ” = 10 %( You
        > should recalculate all calculations presented )
        >
        > Perhaps, some of us who have other
        > opinions? So everyone will be better understood in
        > estimating the diameter of penstocks.
        >
        >
        >
        > Best Regards
        >
        > Ahmad.S
        >
        >
        >
        > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 6/28/10, SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...>
        > Subject: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
        > To: "microhydro" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 6:38 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear fellow Member
        >
        >
        >
        > We had a project 16kw Crossflow Turbine for a Resorts
        >
        >
        >
        > I would like to check this Pipe sizing Our Calculation is between
        >
        > 250MM to 300MM Inside
        >
        > Diameter PVC Pipe,. Penstock length is 60 meters With out Forbay and Surge
        > tank
        >
        >
        >
        > Please advice us Velocity of the water for this Project
        >
        >
        >
        > Our data is 15 meters Head net Q discharge i 150 to 175 liters/sec Pt 17Kw
        >
        >
        >
        > Regards
        >
        >
        >
        > Bobby
      • ahmad suhendra
        Dear Bobby You should be able to calculate with mathematical equations that we provide. ( try to be confident ), but the calculation that I wrote actually only
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Bobby

          You
          should be able to calculate with mathematical equations that we provide. ( try to be
          confident ), but the calculation

          that I wrote actually only for the Losses due to pipe friction*. So for
          a better calculation of the head losses  then you should have to learn
          more about the
          screen losses, entrance losses, bend losses etc, so you
          will be able to calculate the total head losses then the calculation of  ID pipe will be more accurate.

          The various head losses which occur between reservoir
          and turbine are as follows:1.
          Trashrack (or screen) losses2.
          Entrance losses3. Losses due
          to pipe friction*4. Bend losses5. Losses in valve and fittings.6. Losses in
          sudden contraction and expansion

          We are
          the people who are interested in micro hydro ( renewable energy ).
          Hopefully, my e-mail is useful for you


          Best regards
          Ahmad
          BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY(http://www.indmicrohydro.blogspot.com)


          --- On Fri, 7/2/10, SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...> wrote:

          From: SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...>
          Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
          To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com, ahmad_suhendra2003@...
          Date: Friday,
          July 2, 2010, 1:17 PM

          Dear Ahmad

              Thank you so Much for Your computation is very Good excellent.But
          you compute it on
          60 meters Penstock length with 6% losses for 300mm ID Pipe.What about
          120 meters it will double the Losses. Do we need 350mm ID Pipe

              Do you do MicrohydroBusiness where is your Location Address


          Regards


          Bobby



          On 6/28/10, ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Susan Olarte,
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In order to calculate the diameter of  penstocks, your need to use the
          > maximum flow of 175 liters / s or  0.175 m ^
          > 3/ s .
          >
          > A).The
          > data you provide are as
          follows:
          >
          >
          >
          > 1). Flow (Qp) = 0.175 m ^ 3 / s
          >
          > 2). Head netto (H) = 15 m
          >
          > 3). Lenght of penstocks (Lp) = 60 m
          >
          > 4). Inside diameter, (Dp) = 250 mm to 300 mm
          >
          > 5). P=16 kW ( We don't review)
          >
          > B).Water velocity
          > in penstocks ( V )
          >
          > V (m / s) = 0.125 (2 * 9.8 * 15)
          > ^ 0.5 = 2.143  m/s
          >
          > (Permissible velocity in Penstocks, V (m / s) = 0.125* (2* g* H) ^
          > 0.5
          >
          >  Ref: P J Bier ,USBR 1961)
          >
          >
          >
          > C).Inside diameter of penstocks (Dp)
          >
          > Dp, m = (1.273 * Qp / V) ^ 0.5
          >
          > Dp, m = (1.273 * 0.175 / 2.143) ^
          > 0.5 = 0.32 m or 320 mm
          >
          >
          >
          > D). Rough estimate of penstocks head losses using Manning’s formula
          >
          > (Not including loss of the trash rack, entrance,
          > bend, sudden contraction and
          expansion etc)
          >
          > For Dp =
          > 320 mm
          >
          > Manning
          > coefficient (n) for PVC = 0.009
          >
          > Head loss = [(10.29 * n ^ 2 * Qp ^
          > 2) / 5.333 ^ Dp] Lp
          >
          > Head loss = [(10.29 * 0.009 ^2
          > * 0.175 ^ 2) / 0.320 ^ 5.333)] * 60 = 0.67 m
          >
          > percentage of head loss, % H_loss) = (Head Loss / Head Gross) * 100 %=
          > 0.67/(15+0.67) * 100 % = 4.3 %
          >
          > With a similar calculation,
          >
          > For Dp =
          > 300 mm
          >
          > % H_loss = 0.94/(15+0.94) * 100% = 6.0 %
          >
          >
          >
          > For Dp = 250 mm
          >
          > % H_loss = 2.5/(15+2.5) * 100% = 14.0 %
          >
          >
          > For crossflow turbine, usually a
          > maximum of “ % H_loss ” = 10 %( You
          > should recalculate all calculations presented )
          >
          > Perhaps, some of us who have other
          > opinions? So everyone will be better understood in
          > estimating the
          diameter of  penstocks.
          >
          >
          >
          > Best Regards
          >
          > Ahmad.S
          >
          >
          >
          > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
          >
          >
          > --- On Mon, 6/28/10, SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: SUSAN OLARTE <arsan@...>
          > Subject: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
          > To: "microhydro" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 6:38 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >       Dear fellow
          Member
          >
          >
          >
          > We had a project 16kw Crossflow Turbine for a Resorts
          >
          >
          >
          > I would like to check this Pipe sizing Our Calculation is between
          >
          > 250MM to 300MM Inside
          >
          > Diameter PVC Pipe,. Penstock length is 60 meters With out Forbay and Surge
          > tank
          >
          >
          >
          > Please advice us Velocity of the water for this Project
          >
          >
          >
          > Our data is 15 meters Head net Q discharge i 150 to 175 liters/sec Pt 17Kw
          >
          >
          >
          > Regards
          >
          >
          >
          > Bobby





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nando
          Angel: You are right, I have forgotten that simple formula completely But the volume needs to be in cubic centimeters in this case diameter =
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Angel:

            You are right, I have forgotten that simple formula completely

            But the volume needs to be in cubic centimeters in this case diameter = Squareroot(175000/3.14) = 236 mm

            Nando


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Rita M. Rodríguez C.
            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 3:47 PM
            Subject: RE: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing



            Hi, there is a fast way to calculate estimate the optimal diameter for
            pressure pipes D= sqrt(Q/pi). The result is acceptably accurate.

            For 175 l/s, the result is 236 mm, and the closer standardized diameter to
            that is 250 mm.

            Hope this might help.

            Angel

            From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Nando
            Sent: miércoles, 30 de junio de 2010 09:51 p.m.
            To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

            BOBBY:

            I do not have the time to spend and run the calculations to check your
            design .

            Is this the first time you calculate a Banki ? .

            Nando

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: SUSAN OLARTE
            To: Nando ; microhydro
            Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:03 AM
            Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

            Dear Nando

            We came out to runner design for crossflow 200MM Diameter x 300Mm
            length with 21
            Blade or vane for 15 Kwe net Power Pt 16 to 17kw RPM will be 600 to 700

            We are doing Frame sizing same Runner Diameter will just increase the Length
            like 200MM Diameter start from 100MM lenth 150MM,200MM,250MM,300MM,400MM

            Our next Design is 250MM Diameter runner x 200MM Length

            Hope this will be ok

            Regards

            Bobby

            On 6/28/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> > wrote:
            > SUSAN:
            >
            > Visit : http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html
            >
            > To maximize the power you need to reduce the head losses due to friction
            and
            > with a 300 mm pipe the head losses are 0.5 meter, for 250 mm , loss is 1.2
            > meters
            >
            > There You can calculate the losses and how to improve the design,-- you
            need
            > at least 350 mm ( loss 0..24 meter) to maximize the power harvested -- to
            > minimize the head loss. -
            >
            > All depends on the pipe cost versus the generated power that can be
            > estimated by calculating the different power levels with different pipe
            > diameters.
            >
            > Also, you can down load the XCEL Program to put it in your computer for
            > local use;.the site has as well, many other technical information like how
            > to convert from English to Metric systems., and many other technical
            > disciplines
            >
            > 17 KW output if you are very careful in the design of the Turbine with
            very
            > tight runner to casing spacing in the order of about 0,3 mm and the runner
            > blades are well formed and the Nozzle area placement has been optimize for
            > this head to be able to harvest the energy when the water passes and exits
            > through the opposite side of the runner.
            >
            > Some people do have a lot of problems with the design and the transition
            > from circular to square or rectangular going to the Banki and the angle of
            > entrance to the Banki which has to be considered carefully to obtain
            maximum
            > harvesting ( this is head sensitive = WATER velocity ).
            >
            > Do you have drawings of the turbine manufacture ?. This to see if you have
            > a good working Turbine .
            >
            > I see around 15 to 17 KW. - but toward the lower value -- .
            >
            > Lastly, you can as well translate the web page to some other languages ,
            see
            > bottom of page .
            >
            > Nando
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: SUSAN OLARTE
            > To: microhydro
            > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:38 PM
            > Subject: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear fellow Member
            >
            > We had a project 16kw Crossflow Turbine for a Resorts
            >
            > I would like to check this Pipe sizing Our Calculation is between
            > 250MM to 300MM Inside
            > Diameter PVC Pipe,. Penstock length is 60 meters With out Forbay and Surge
            > tank
            >
            > Please advice us Velocity of the water for this Project
            >
            > Our data is 15 meters Head net Q discharge i 150 to 175 liters/sec Pt 17Kw
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > Bobby
            >
            > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
            > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
            <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
            > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:52:53 +0800 (SGT)
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > To Nando :
            >
            > Sorry I
            > was wrong write the formula of velocity (not
            > accurate) :
            > v (velocity of water ) = D / T
            > Should be is ;
            > v (velocity of water ) = phi * D / T
            > D = ( v * T) / phi
            > then:
            > E =1/2 * density * phi * D * A * v ^2
            > E = 1/2 *density * phi *( v * T / phi) * A * v ^ 2
            > E = 500 *
            > v ^ 3 *A * T
            >
            > Best regards
            > Ahmad
            >
            > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
            >
            > --- On Sun, 6/27/10, ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
            <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
            >
            > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
            <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 9:03 AM
            >
            > To Nando :
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > for the correction.
            >
            > Please corrected me again because it
            >
            > will increase my knowledge.
            >
            > My understanding
            >
            > so far is as follows (maybe I misunderstood).
            >
            > E (Kinetic
            >
            > energy) = 1 / 2 * M * v ^ 2
            >
            > M = mass
            >
            > of water (kg)
            >
            > v = velocity of water (m/s)
            >
            > M (mass, kg) = density (1000 kg / m ^ 3) * V
            >
            > (volume, m ^ 3)
            >
            > V (volume, m^3) = phi (3.14) * D
            >
            > turbine (m) * A (area of blade, m ^ 2)
            >
            > v (velocity of water, m/s) = D turbine (m) / T (time, s)
            >
            > D turbine, m = v
            >
            > (m / s) * T (time, s)
            >
            > E =1
            >
            > / 2 * M * v ^ 2
            >
            > E =1
            >
            > / 2 * density * ( V ) * v ^2
            >
            > E = 1
            >
            > / 2 * density * ( phi * D * A) * v ^ 2
            >
            > E = 1570 * (D) * A * v ^ 2
            >
            > E= 1570 *(
            >
            > v * T ) * A* v ^2
            >
            > E = 1570 * v ^3 * A *
            >
            > T (joule)
            >
            > P( Power) watt = E (joule) / T (sec)
            >
            > Ahmad
            >
            > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
            >
            > --- On Sat, 6/26/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
            > wrote:
            >
            > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
            >
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
            >
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > Date: Saturday, June 26, 2010, 6:21 AM
            >
            > Ahmad:
            >
            > Yes, I am quite well aware of what the barrel is.
            >
            > Also the formula since I have used for many decades but you need to
            > correct it , V^3 and NOT V^2.
            >
            > Do you care to tell me how you are going to measure the water volume
            > and how energy is captured by the barrel specially when the barrel is
            > full of air and floating on the river, assume a certain depth on the
            > chevron undulations the barrel has to allow you how to calculate the
            > harvested energy.
            >
            > Nando
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > From: ahmad suhendra
            >
            > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:01 PM
            >
            > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
            >
            > To Nando :
            >
            > This turbine is known as kinetic hydro turbine or zero head turbine ( the
            >
            > same as wind turbine )
            >
            > The turbine power (Et) is:
            >
            > Et (joule or watt.sec) = n * (1 / 2) * m (kg) * V(m/s) ^ 2
            >
            > Where :
            >
            > (n ) is the turbine efficiency and as fixed variable because the type
            > of turbine is fixed.
            >
            > (m) is the mass of water that hit the blade and as a fixed variable
            > because the blade area is fixed.
            >
            > (V) is the velocity of the water and as a changed variable because
            > depending on river flow conditions.
            >
            > (From the equation , we can calculate the power generated by
            > determining the mass of water used (affecting blade dimensions) if the
            > velocity of water has been known)
            >
            > The weakness of this turbine is:
            >
            > This turbine is very difficult to control if the turbine is placed in
            > the river body, because the flow was always changing so that the
            > velocity would be changed too and is very dangerous if a large flood
            > occurred because many stone, wood, or trash, which carried into the
            > flow that can damage the turbine.
            >
            > Ahmad
            >
            > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
            >
            > --- On Fri, 6/25/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
            > wrote:
            >
            > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
            >
            > Subject: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
            >
            > To: "MICROHYDRO" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> >
            >
            > Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 8:18 PM
            >
            > To All:
            >
            > I have received a request to give an opinion on the HEB Barrel , if
            >
            > interested visit : www.hydro-electric-barrel.com
            >
            > Presently it is what we can call : Vaporware -
            >
            > It is just a rendering, it does not exist yet and read where it says :
            >
            > "elimination of the bow wave in front of the barrel as it rotates at the
            >
            > same speed as the flow of water" -- this statement alone is wrong, by
            >
            > definition for the barrel to be able to extract power from the water it
            > has
            >
            > to give a "resistance " to the water, which implies that it has to rotate
            > at
            >
            > a lower velocity than the water velocity --
            >
            > In addition planetary gears = higher price cost .
            >
            > I do not see this product to be a good one in a long time if ever. ---
            >
            > Efficiency and power harvesting may be lower than normal devices due to
            > the
            >
            > concept of the barrel riding the water with very low harvesting area which
            >
            > seems to be the width of the barrel times the floating area, not greater
            >
            > than 30 to 45 degrees .
            >
            > Some of the renderings show an ocean concept that do make the system quite
            >
            > expensive where the anchoring device to the bottom of the sea may cost
            > much
            >
            > more than the "barrel Turbine" it self.
            >
            > Any comments from anyone ???
            >
            > Nando
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rita M. Rodríguez C.
            YES Nando, I forgot to include that. The complete formula is Squareroot(Q/3.1416)*1000, Q-m3/s and the result is in mm. I use another four formulas to
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              YES Nando, I forgot to include that. The complete formula is
              Squareroot(Q/3.1416)*1000, Q-m3/s and the result is in mm.

              I use another four formulas to corroborate the result and have an
              optimization method I have developed myself.

              This used to be my everyday work.

              CU all,

              Angel



              From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Nando
              Sent: viernes, 02 de julio de 2010 11:01 a.m.
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing





              Angel:

              You are right, I have forgotten that simple formula completely

              But the volume needs to be in cubic centimeters in this case diameter =
              Squareroot(175000/3.14) = 236 mm

              Nando

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rita M. Rodríguez C.
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 3:47 PM
              Subject: RE: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

              Hi, there is a fast way to calculate estimate the optimal diameter for
              pressure pipes D= sqrt(Q/pi). The result is acceptably accurate.

              For 175 l/s, the result is 236 mm, and the closer standardized diameter to
              that is 250 mm.

              Hope this might help.

              Angel

              From: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> ]
              On
              Behalf Of Nando
              Sent: miércoles, 30 de junio de 2010 09:51 p.m.
              To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

              BOBBY:

              I do not have the time to spend and run the calculations to check your
              design .

              Is this the first time you calculate a Banki ? .

              Nando

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: SUSAN OLARTE
              To: Nando ; microhydro
              Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:03 AM
              Subject: Re: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing

              Dear Nando

              We came out to runner design for crossflow 200MM Diameter x 300Mm
              length with 21
              Blade or vane for 15 Kwe net Power Pt 16 to 17kw RPM will be 600 to 700

              We are doing Frame sizing same Runner Diameter will just increase the Length
              like 200MM Diameter start from 100MM lenth 150MM,200MM,250MM,300MM,400MM

              Our next Design is 250MM Diameter runner x 200MM Length

              Hope this will be ok

              Regards

              Bobby

              On 6/28/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> > wrote:
              > SUSAN:
              >
              > Visit : http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html
              >
              > To maximize the power you need to reduce the head losses due to friction
              and
              > with a 300 mm pipe the head losses are 0.5 meter, for 250 mm , loss is 1.2
              > meters
              >
              > There You can calculate the losses and how to improve the design,-- you
              need
              > at least 350 mm ( loss 0..24 meter) to maximize the power harvested -- to
              > minimize the head loss. -
              >
              > All depends on the pipe cost versus the generated power that can be
              > estimated by calculating the different power levels with different pipe
              > diameters.
              >
              > Also, you can down load the XCEL Program to put it in your computer for
              > local use;.the site has as well, many other technical information like how
              > to convert from English to Metric systems., and many other technical
              > disciplines
              >
              > 17 KW output if you are very careful in the design of the Turbine with
              very
              > tight runner to casing spacing in the order of about 0,3 mm and the runner
              > blades are well formed and the Nozzle area placement has been optimize for
              > this head to be able to harvest the energy when the water passes and exits
              > through the opposite side of the runner.
              >
              > Some people do have a lot of problems with the design and the transition
              > from circular to square or rectangular going to the Banki and the angle of
              > entrance to the Banki which has to be considered carefully to obtain
              maximum
              > harvesting ( this is head sensitive = WATER velocity ).
              >
              > Do you have drawings of the turbine manufacture ?. This to see if you have
              > a good working Turbine .
              >
              > I see around 15 to 17 KW. - but toward the lower value -- .
              >
              > Lastly, you can as well translate the web page to some other languages ,
              see
              > bottom of page .
              >
              > Nando
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: SUSAN OLARTE
              > To: microhydro
              > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:38 PM
              > Subject: [microhydro] Fwd Microhydro Pipe sizing
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear fellow Member
              >
              > We had a project 16kw Crossflow Turbine for a Resorts
              >
              > I would like to check this Pipe sizing Our Calculation is between
              > 250MM to 300MM Inside
              > Diameter PVC Pipe,. Penstock length is 60 meters With out Forbay and Surge
              > tank
              >
              > Please advice us Velocity of the water for this Project
              >
              > Our data is 15 meters Head net Q discharge i 150 to 175 liters/sec Pt 17Kw
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Bobby
              >
              > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
              > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com>
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
              > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:52:53 +0800 (SGT)
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > To Nando :
              >
              > Sorry I
              > was wrong write the formula of velocity (not
              > accurate) :
              > v (velocity of water ) = D / T
              > Should be is ;
              > v (velocity of water ) = phi * D / T
              > D = ( v * T) / phi
              > then:
              > E =1/2 * density * phi * D * A * v ^2
              > E = 1/2 *density * phi *( v * T / phi) * A * v ^ 2
              > E = 500 *
              > v ^ 3 *A * T
              >
              > Best regards
              > Ahmad
              >
              > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
              >
              > --- On Sun, 6/27/10, ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com>
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
              >
              > From: ahmad suhendra <ahmad_suhendra2003@...
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com>
              <mailto:ahmad_suhendra2003%40yahoo.com> >
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 9:03 AM
              >
              > To Nando :
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > for the correction.
              >
              > Please corrected me again because it
              >
              > will increase my knowledge.
              >
              > My understanding
              >
              > so far is as follows (maybe I misunderstood).
              >
              > E (Kinetic
              >
              > energy) = 1 / 2 * M * v ^ 2
              >
              > M = mass
              >
              > of water (kg)
              >
              > v = velocity of water (m/s)
              >
              > M (mass, kg) = density (1000 kg / m ^ 3) * V
              >
              > (volume, m ^ 3)
              >
              > V (volume, m^3) = phi (3.14) * D
              >
              > turbine (m) * A (area of blade, m ^ 2)
              >
              > v (velocity of water, m/s) = D turbine (m) / T (time, s)
              >
              > D turbine, m = v
              >
              > (m / s) * T (time, s)
              >
              > E =1
              >
              > / 2 * M * v ^ 2
              >
              > E =1
              >
              > / 2 * density * ( V ) * v ^2
              >
              > E = 1
              >
              > / 2 * density * ( phi * D * A) * v ^ 2
              >
              > E = 1570 * (D) * A * v ^ 2
              >
              > E= 1570 *(
              >
              > v * T ) * A* v ^2
              >
              > E = 1570 * v ^3 * A *
              >
              > T (joule)
              >
              > P( Power) watt = E (joule) / T (sec)
              >
              > Ahmad
              >
              > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
              >
              > --- On Sat, 6/26/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              > wrote:
              >
              > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
              >
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
              >
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > Date: Saturday, June 26, 2010, 6:21 AM
              >
              > Ahmad:
              >
              > Yes, I am quite well aware of what the barrel is.
              >
              > Also the formula since I have used for many decades but you need to
              > correct it , V^3 and NOT V^2.
              >
              > Do you care to tell me how you are going to measure the water volume
              > and how energy is captured by the barrel specially when the barrel is
              > full of air and floating on the river, assume a certain depth on the
              > chevron undulations the barrel has to allow you how to calculate the
              > harvested energy.
              >
              > Nando
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              >
              > From: ahmad suhendra
              >
              > To: microhydro@yahoogroups.com <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:01 PM
              >
              > Subject: Re: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
              >
              > To Nando :
              >
              > This turbine is known as kinetic hydro turbine or zero head turbine ( the
              >
              > same as wind turbine )
              >
              > The turbine power (Et) is:
              >
              > Et (joule or watt.sec) = n * (1 / 2) * m (kg) * V(m/s) ^ 2
              >
              > Where :
              >
              > (n ) is the turbine efficiency and as fixed variable because the type
              > of turbine is fixed.
              >
              > (m) is the mass of water that hit the blade and as a fixed variable
              > because the blade area is fixed.
              >
              > (V) is the velocity of the water and as a changed variable because
              > depending on river flow conditions.
              >
              > (From the equation , we can calculate the power generated by
              > determining the mass of water used (affecting blade dimensions) if the
              > velocity of water has been known)
              >
              > The weakness of this turbine is:
              >
              > This turbine is very difficult to control if the turbine is placed in
              > the river body, because the flow was always changing so that the
              > velocity would be changed too and is very dangerous if a large flood
              > occurred because many stone, wood, or trash, which carried into the
              > flow that can damage the turbine.
              >
              > Ahmad
              >
              > BLOG OF INDONESIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY COMMUNITY
              >
              > --- On Fri, 6/25/10, Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              > wrote:
              >
              > From: Nando <nando37@... <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com>
              <mailto:nando37%40tx.rr.com> >
              >
              > Subject: [microhydro] THE HEB BARREL TURBINE CONCEPT AND REALITY
              >
              > To: "MICROHYDRO" <microhydro@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:microhydro%40yahoogroups.com> >
              >
              > Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 8:18 PM
              >
              > To All:
              >
              > I have received a request to give an opinion on the HEB Barrel , if
              >
              > interested visit : www.hydro-electric-barrel.com
              >
              > Presently it is what we can call : Vaporware -
              >
              > It is just a rendering, it does not exist yet and read where it says :
              >
              > "elimination of the bow wave in front of the barrel as it rotates at the
              >
              > same speed as the flow of water" -- this statement alone is wrong, by
              >
              > definition for the barrel to be able to extract power from the water it
              > has
              >
              > to give a "resistance " to the water, which implies that it has to rotate
              > at
              >
              > a lower velocity than the water velocity --
              >
              > In addition planetary gears = higher price cost .
              >
              > I do not see this product to be a good one in a long time if ever. ---
              >
              > Efficiency and power harvesting may be lower than normal devices due to
              > the
              >
              > concept of the barrel riding the water with very low harvesting area which
              >
              > seems to be the width of the barrel times the floating area, not greater
              >
              > than 30 to 45 degrees .
              >
              > Some of the renderings show an ocean concept that do make the system quite
              >
              > expensive where the anchoring device to the bottom of the sea may cost
              > much
              >
              > more than the "barrel Turbine" it self.
              >
              > Any comments from anyone ???
              >
              > Nando
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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