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Re: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system

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  • Eugene Moe
    The website address works if you take out the two spaces (before org and stream ). ________________________________ From: Nando To:
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 31, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      The website address works if you take out the two spaces (before "org" and "stream").

      From: Nando <nando37@...>
      To: Johannes Hertlein <johannes.hertlein@...>
      Cc: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:24:11 AM
      Subject: Re: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system


      the www.green-step. org does not open at all , either basic or with the link extensions.

      Water is the most deceiving element, and for that, "estimation" it is a "wild guestimation" more or less 100 % either way of the real volume -- therefore, this is the reason why I insist for those interested in a small hydro to do the PROPER steps to avoid failures and bad investments.

      Dry season may be just OK, though seasonal analysis of the volume to define the best arrangement --

      To just install what basically is needed --- It could be quite expensive since a bit of more money or different arrangement could give you a much added energy. SEE BELOW -- by just changing the TURBINES!!

      Know how much power you need but do not design limits for that, determine what can be harvested then see how you can maximize the harvesting -- do not use car alternators --

      Strong-head is OK -- but be flexible within the possible maximum energy harvesting --

      You are trying to "electrify" a hospital, therefore you should have both sites operational -- You need 120 % assurance of having power available -- reason why most hospitals, in the developed world, though they have a very constant and stable power sources, still the site may have IN SITU diesel generators to have that assurance.

      Solar energy, if compared to hydro it is , for the same KWH power level, quite more expensive -- since storage battery KWH has to be implemented for those 14 to 16 hours without Sun Power energy.

      I have indicated to really give information for the definitions of the penstock length and reasons -- this, to see and analyze the way you think in implement the project --

      POWERPAL MHG series are single Nozzle Turgos -- therefore with limited volume capabilities --

      If your "water estimation" is right == then from the 70 m site = around 1.9 KW
      from the 320 m site = 1 KW

      YOU are implementing NOT the right turbine .

      Check MGH-T1 and MGH-T2 -- These seem a better arrangement for you -- though you need to talk, extensively with POWERPAL'S David Seymour to see what type of limitations you may have with those two sites -- and think in using both -- this may be the best for the hospital - though I am aware of the financial possible stress and limitations the hospital may have .

      Try to use the largest diameter pipe possible to reduce the head losses due to water friction.

      Also, there are other ways to solve your turbine definition.

      The right way for your HOSPITAL seems to be a Turbine with multiple Nozzles to be able to maximize the harvesting power depending on the available water volume available.

      A Banki= crossflow = Osserberg ( sp?) turbine may be better for your site.

      Carlos Bonifetti In Chile may give you additional insight on the Banki turbines.

      Solutions now use and for as a backup, in the future, once the GRID is connected, seems to be set for 230 Vac, 50 Hz and either directly generated or DC/AC inverter sourced.

      Do not shorcut the hospital.-- connect directly with me, to discuss, at length, your options and possible alternative solutions within the hospital aims and needs.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Johannes Hertlein
      To: 'Nando'
      Cc: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:56 AM
      Subject: AW: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system

      HI Nando,

      thanks for your email. Did you see the photos I uploaded to our server:

      www.green-step. org/03_forum/ stream.pdf

      In fact there are only these two places in a radius of 1km around the hospital. All other parts of the stream are too flat to get a reasonable head.

      Unfortunately I cannot get the data for the wet season. I only know how high the water can get. But for a small water turbine it is more than enough.

      My approach is always a little bit different:

      First I need to know how much power I need. Because providing just the power the sites can give to you neglects the necessity of the consumer.

      Therefore I look for the option which can be the best in prize and output.

      If this solution doesn't meet the required energy I will go for other solutions like solar power.

      Actually I don't want to drive any appliances without the battery (except of the lights maybe). I want to have a solution which can be even used as a backup if the Health center gets connected to the national grid in some years. And adding solar panels would be a nice option to increase the overall output and to diversify the systems input sources.

      The pipes are no problem. We will go for the thicker ones.

      Sorry, to be so stronghead. But I really wanna push this project with the available material we have.


      1. 70m to load.

      head 9,8m

      Length of pipe 100m

      Flow dry season about 40l/sec (estimation)

      Flow rainy season (to be honest the water level increases in a stream bed of 4m width almost 1,5m!!!! How should I Measure this flow????? Lets keep it giant and destructive! !!!)

      2. 320m to load.

      The head would be 8,8m.

      Length of pipe 65m.

      Flow dry season 26l/sec

      Rainy season see above

      Photos and data of the proposed turbines:

      http://www.powerpal .com/highhead. html

      Voltage Cameroon 230V 50Hz



      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

      Von: Nando [mailto:nando37@.... com]
      Gesendet: Samstag, 28. März 2009 17:31
      An: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
      Cc: johannes.hertlein@ gmx.net; Carlos Bonifetti
      Betreff: Re: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system


      Can you take digital photographs and send them ??

      I see the problem you have and the right solution is to have two hydros to attain needed power .

      Though, the way you do this system is to stop what you are doing----- and go there and spend some time to see all the parameters for more than those two water sources, because it seems that you have more water streams around the place.

      You say:

      >In the list I got it is written that it needs a head of 7-11m and a water flow from 7,4-9,1m/s and there fore produces 275W-520W.

      Head is first ,then volume is second for energy production - though the pipe can be more expensive and longer.

      PLEASE forget about your calculations of the equipment energy, it is setting you mind to limited parameters

      LET'S FIND that the two sites are capable of harvesting if the proper measurements are made.

      I have the feeling that you are limiting the head and the pipe length, what is important, it is to do the proper measurements to determine what is best -------- therefore, it is best to measure the PROFILE and HEAD and VOLUME from the point it enters the property to the point it exists the property and for the moment to forget the distance to the load.

      Photographs of proposed turbine and intake sites -- then the new measurements ---

      This last requested head and land profile plus the volume measurements can give the right parameters to attain the best system within the financial limits or to find alternative solutions for the proper hydroelectric system.

      Indeed, the seasonal volume variations are needed to define the lowest level to the highest level of energy harvesting from each site.

      The volume variations should be recorded along the year months to see what is best as a turbine and generator to determine how much power to produce during the wet seasons ( probably enough to drive the loads directly without batteries ) --

      Be organized like you did with some of the energy calculations - and always have at the end of your message the data available in a shorten form , like site a) = volume dry and wet, head , pipe length and load distance - some of us reply to many places and need to remember too many data point and that is problematic for me, right now I am assisting 6 people with problems like yours.

      For the moment forget about the battery size, let's work the hydro to see what can be harvested properly ---

      Sewage pipe 1 mm is too thin , better check it , sewer pipe is supposed to be good for at least 30 PSI -- unless different in Cameroon. PIPE DIAMETER needs to be determined --- get the data information for the pipes parameters and cost !!

      For such low head the sewage pipe is OK, do not buy anything until all the parameters are in !!.

      You do not use car alternators you should use a high voltage AC generator/alternato r to send the energy with low losses then at the load to have the conversion to charge the batteries if needed.

      Do collect the pieces of equipment and the voltage and amps they use plus daily time ON, and supply it , to show you how to properly calculate the used and needed storage energy.

      What is the AC voltage for Cameroon ?,, It is 230 Vac and 50 Hz ???

      Weir calculation are well within reliable measurements --

      Send the information directly to me as well .

      The charger using transformers are easy to make and control with accurate battery voltage regulation


      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Johannes Hertlein

      To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com

      Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 4:08 AM

      Subject: AW: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system

      Dear Nando, Carlos and group,

      Thank you for the information so far.

      That's really encouraging. I was in the field to see the water turbine
      sites, that why may reply comes so late.

      The problem we have over there is following:

      During the dry season the water flow drops dramatically to less then 35l/s
      (I was not able to measure the flow during my stay). So the proposed
      Powerpal turbine is not working. And during the rainy season the stream
      level increases so much, that every turbine would be flooded if we wouldn't
      put it 1,8m higher than the water level during the rainy season.

      I didn´t expect as much fluctuation over there. But I tried to solve the
      problem by searching fo a possible site for the 500W high head turbine.

      In the list I got it is written that it needs a head of 7-11m and a water
      flow from 7,4-9,1m/s and there fore produces 275W-520W.

      In fact there are only to sites which can provide this head.

      1. The site is 70m away from the battery station. It has a potential
      head of about 9,8m (which includes already 1,8m safety head). But the piping
      has to be almost 100m along the stream. This stream is bigger than the
      second option, since another small stream feeds this one.
      2. This site is 320m away from the station. The head would be 8,8m. But
      the piping only 65m. The flow is slidly smaller. I could measure it as well.
      But I uploaded a picture. The triangle represents almost ¾ of the total flow
      and has a width of 30cm and a high of 15cm. According to the book
      "Harnessing water power for home energy" from 1978!!! A weir with this
      dimensions should provide 26l/sec. I can give you my calculation. Is this

      Here are some pictures:

      www.green-step. org/03_forum/ stream.pdf
      <http://www.green- step.org/ 03_forum/ health.pdf>

      Which option is better. Just for the numbers it would be number one. But as
      usual it depends on the financial aspect. This is especially because of the
      piping. The manual recommends 110mm PVC piping. These pipes are available
      here in Cameroon. But there are two different types. The thin one, used
      usually in Sewage application (maybe 1mm thick). And the thick pressure type
      (3mm approx thick). Of course the prizes vary widely. Which one do you think
      we can use?

      Considering overall we will have an output of 350W.

      Even with an output of 350W there will be enough power in the Health center.

      I did some calculation considering the loads, the efficiencies and the power

      You can download the pdf from:

      www.green-step. org/03_forum/ health.pdf

      Some explanation:

      I took a conservative estimation. The turbine will produce 350W and has an
      availability of 96% (means 23h out of 24h).

      I didn't calculate any losses in the line, since it will be between 20 and

      The bulbs and the charger are connected directly to the turbine, because I
      learnt, that they wont get harmed by the "wild" voltage of the turbine.

      I thought that the battery charger and the batteies will have an effiency
      around 80% and the inverter (I will bet a 2000W sinus wave inverter which
      can start the fridge motor) around 90%.

      So I just added these losses to the both consumers (a fridge with 300W and
      an autoclave with 1200W consumption) .

      The autoclave is used to sterilize the medical tools and functions like a
      big steam cooker. The doctor told me it will be on for about 1/2h a day (so
      I took 1h).

      The fridge makes me some headache. I estimated that I will run maybe 20min
      an hour, so I just used 1h every 3h for my calculation.

      I am not sure if it will be enough. But as far as I can see it should be.

      Altogether the power consumption is a little bit lower as the production,
      even with my overestimation.

      To get the right battery bank size, I just tried to put the maximum load
      (2803W) with the minimum power production (0W) in the some hour 19:00.

      Ok, there wont be light, since they are connected directly, but leave it
      just like this.

      With a maximum discharge of 50% I need a battery bank of 467Ah (considering
      I am using a 12V bank).

      To charge this battery bank should I get a charger with 15Amps or with

      Or, does it make any difference. It would be nice to get the bigger one, so
      if the system is getting bigger once, we can still use this charger?

      Or, will this charger consume too much electricity, so the bulbs cannot work

      Or, will the turbine overheat? (I learnt from this problem, a European
      client of powerpal turbines had, but it seemed to be unique)

      Thank you for your information


      @ Nando: thanks for your information. The idea of this selfmade charger is
      really interesting for me. Our other project is having a small problem. We
      are using car alternators to charger car batteries. But the people are not
      really convenient with caring batteries. But I don't want to make the cable
      to long, because of the power loss of transferring 12V over long distances.
      To you think there is a small (means cheap and everywhere available)
      solution for it? I can send you more information if you are interested.


      Von: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:microhydro@yahoogro ups.com] Im
      Auftrag von carlos Bonifetti
      Gesendet: Samstag, 21. März 2009 15:39
      An: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
      Betreff: Re: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system

      Johannes, Nando,

      I think that the real power from the MHG-500LH will be more or less 350 -
      400 W.


      ____________ _________ _________ __
      De: Nando < <mailto:nando37% 40tx.rr.com> nando37@.... com>
      Para: <mailto:microhydro% 40yahoogroups. com> microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
      Enviado: sábado, 21 de marzo, 2009 1:37:38
      Asunto: Re: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system


      Interesting project you have. Connect directly with me if additional
      information is needed .

      For one you have not indicated what power you are getting from the PowerPal
      MHG --

      Assuming 500 watts is generated -- and at some time all is used to charge
      batteries - then you need to think what size in watts hours and voltage the
      battery banks needs to be set for.

      The MSW inverters -- Modified Sine Wave in-expensive inverter that in some
      cases can be used with certain electronic equipment and small motors --
      though in some cases can not be used.

      The PSW inverters - Pure Sine Wave higher price inverter useful in all the
      cases - though with limited peak power handling capability.

      500 watts is 12 KW-H / day which if used all for battery charging the
      battery bank needs to have a storage capability of 24 KW-H to make sure that
      the bank life is long -- by making sure that the battery does not suffer a
      discharge greater than 50 % .

      Battery charger for this setup can be as simple as a power transformer with
      a full wave rectifier and a battery voltage detector to cut off the charge
      when full .
      If you follow this route I can assist you with it .

      I do prefer that the battery bank voltage is high, like 48 volts, that
      allows easier current handling, though the PSW inverters are more expensive
      and difficult to find MSW --

      So , you need an analysis of your overall system to determine what type of
      conversion and battery bank is needed for your site.

      If MSW it may be necessary to isolate the AC from both systems --.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Johannes Hertlein
      To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:54 AM
      Subject: [microhydro] Design and components for waterturbine system

      Good morning everybody,

      my name is Johannes. I am following this group a long time.

      Currently I am working for a Canadian NGO in Cameroon in order to supply a
      small Health center in a remote area.

      The river is 50m away and has enough potential to power a Powerpal MHG

      My idea has been to use as much electricity for light, mobile charging and
      other devices as possible.

      But since there will be a medical fridge (300W) an autoclave (1200W,
      basically a steam sterilization system) and some other small medical
      appliances, I would like to add a battery bank including an inverter to the

      I learnt that it is generally possible to design such a system. But right
      now I don´t have an idea which components I can use.

      My biggest problem is the charger, since the battery bank and the inverter
      can be used as a standard solar off grid design.

      But obviously I cannot use a solar charger, since the waterturbine is
      already producing 220V AC. Can I buy a standard 220V lead acid battery

      If yes, please can someone send me a link to a particular product?

      I am grateful for any comment. Thank you very much


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