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Re: [microhydro] Re: Turbines available worldwide in the 1-15 h.p. range

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  • Michael Welch
    Hi there. Yes, it is my understanding that turgos are in the public domain. But there is a long-standing feud going on between two list members. One claims
    Message 1 of 41 , Feb 28, 2009
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      Hi there. Yes, it is my understanding that turgos are in the public domain. But there is a long-standing feud going on between two list members.

      One claims they have exclusive, authorized rights to make and sell this particular spoon design under copyright laws.

      The other is, apparently, using that spoon design or something similar and believes that there is no such legal exclusivity.

      This is the simple answer (and the whole truth is better left to the courts), and now that the subject has been broached again, we may be getting earfuls.

      homesteadpower wrote at 01:06 PM 2/28/2009:

      >--- In microhydro@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Hartvigsen" <jjh@...> wrote:
      >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/files/Copied_Runner/
      >> There are two new photos with views of a runner made with low quality
      >> aluminum castings. Text to the runner are the original plastic spoons
      >> which were used to make these un-authorized aluminum copies and for
      >> comparison the precision investment cast stainless steel which is heat
      >> treated for high hardness and tensile strength.
      >
      >I keep seeing these references to "unauthorized copies" and hear
      >swirling undertones about turgo wheels. Perhaps because I've only
      >used waterwheels I've missed something here, but according to
      >Wikipedia the turgo wheel was first developed in 1919, and everything
      >since then is essentially a copy of this first design.
      >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgo_turbine
      >
      >Is not the turgo design in the public domain now? Isn't this design
      >available for virtually anyone to copy - after all, none of us was
      >around in 1919 - well, maybe Nando :) ? What is the meaning of these
      >words "unauthorized copies", and does this have any true legal
      >standing, or is this only commercial sniping between people in the
      >business???
    • carlos Bonifetti
      Dear Winnaing and Komuradin, I have the printed Construction Manual  for the SKAT T-12 and the addendum for the updated model T-13. One of the changes is:
      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 21, 2009
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        Dear Winnaing and Komuradin,

        I have the printed Construction Manual  for the SKAT T-12 and the addendum for the updated model T-13.
        One of the changes is: the T-13 have the horizontal steel plate that join to the nozzle curved plate, of 10 mm thickness instead of 20 mm, as in the T-12. Other change is that blades must be profiled in a lathe from pipe sectors welded by points to a special 'triangle' device and shaft for work it in the lathe.

        The casing for the T-3 model is very involved; so I make a simpler design (the TU-202) with a split case and horizontal inlet for easy assembly and maintenance.  The casing is very similar to the SKAT model T-7.

        When I ask ENTEC, Swiss, some years ago for the advanced  and more efficient model T-15 blueprints, they was stopped the 'free technology' and don't give license. Instead of, they offer me sell the drawings at US$ 10.000, too expensive for my case because the micro hydro turbines market is very small here in Chile. Winnaing: if you contact ENTEC for that, please tell me about actual T-15 technology transfer and cost.

        Cheers,
        Carlos 






        ________________________________
        De: Komarudin <the_bagars@...>
        Para: microhydro@yahoogroups.com
        Enviado: jueves, 19 de marzo, 2009 2:04:34
        Asunto: Re: {Disarmed} Re: [microhydro] Newbie


        Dear Win naing,

        the latest T series of crossflow turbine T14 and T15 is the design of entec AG swiss (www.entec.ch) you can contact them for further information about the license. the turbine have been successfully manufactured and installed in Indonesia and some other countries. in Indonesia it have been installed for more than 150 units from the range of 5 - 250 kW.

        regards,
        Komarudin

        ____________ _________ _________ __
        From: Win Naing <winnaing.sm@ gmail.com>
        To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:48:00 PM
        Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: [microhydro] Newbie

        Dear Carlos,
        I have a Mechanical Engineer from Myanmar.I have already made T1 and
        T3 model cross flow turbines(SKAT Swisszerland) (20kw-70kw). Now I want
        to fabricate latest T serie model cross flow turbine eg. T12,13,14,15.
        I am making micro hydro turbines for rural region of Myanmar.I know
        that your are making cross flow turbines.Do you have latest T serie
        model turbine design book?I f you can, I would like to get it.If you
        haven't,please inform me how I get it.I hope your reply.
        Best regard,
        Winnaing
        winnaing.sm@ gmail.com

        On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Carlos Bonifetti D.
        <cbonifetti@ entelchi le.net> wrote:
        > Carl,
        > I'm in the game since 1992 in Chile, making turbines and associated
        > equipment for microhydro plants from about 3 to 50 kW, most from 5 to 15 kW;
        > cross-flow and Pelton type. But making few machines per year, case to case
        > is not a good bussiness. It does not an easy work.
        > Other members may give you more comments and own experiences.
        > There are several chinesse trade marks for the range asked at internet, but
        > I can't put 'the hands over the fire' for the quality.
        > A trade mark that I know is PowerPal (Asian Phoenix Resources Ltd.) with
        > works at Hanoi and head office at Victoria, Canada: Att. David Seymour,
        > www.powerpal. com
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Carlos Bonifetti
        > MTF LTDA.
        > Chile
        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Carl Emerson
        > To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:11 PM
        > Subject: RE: {Disarmed} Re: [microhydro] Newbie
        >
        > Hullo again,
        >
        > Can I have some comments from those who have been in the game for 5 years or
        > more, what brands of hydro do you stand by in the 1 to 10 kW range ??
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Carl Emerson
        >
        > Manager
        >
        > Free Power Ltd.
        >
        > Cell 021-633999
        >
        > Cellfax 021-2919399
        >
        > Email emerson@freepower. co.nz
        >
        > Web www.freepower. co.nz
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:microhydro@ yahoogro ups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Thomas Miezejeski
        > Sent: 14 February 2009 4:17 a.m.
        > To: microhydro@yahoogro ups.com
        > Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [microhydro] Newbie
        >
        > Carl,
        >
        > I have been in the micro hydro business for about two years. Fisrt, thre is
        > not that much out there except the stuff fron China. As far as I know no
        > one has ranked it. Most micro hydro is just scalled down large hydro, which
        > works sometimes and not in other cases not. Our ompany is
        > commercializingprod uct ffor this space.
        >
        > Some key issues are modularity( low civil engineering required) and mass
        > product like other consumer products9Lower cost per KW of capacity. Run of
        > river makes the enviromentalist and regulators happy..
        >
        > I am opoen to a longer diolugue.
        >
        > Rgards
        > Tom Miezejeski
        > National Hydropower
        > NJ, USA
        >
        > --- On Thu, 2/12/09, Carl Emerson <emerson@freepower.
        > <mailto:emerson% 40freepower. co.nz> co.nz> wrote:
        >
        > From: Carl Emerson <emerson@freepower. <mailto:emerson% 40freepower. co.nz>
        > co.nz>
        > Subject: [microhydro] Newbie
        > To: microhydro@yahoogro <mailto:microhydro% 40yahoogroups. com> ups.com
        > Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 6:16 PM
        >
        > Hi there,
        >
        > This is my first post to this group.
        >
        > I have been doing solar and wind systems for 12 years and I am looking to do
        > more Micro-hydro systems.
        >
        > I have two questions for starters.
        >
        > 1. Has any work been done to rank the popular brands of micro-hydros in
        > the 1 to 10 kW range on price, efficiency, durability etc.
        > 2. Has there been any discussion on the merits of systems available to
        > automatically control flow as the water resource of the stream fluctuates.
        >
        > Many thanks for your help.
        >
        > Carl Emerson
        >
        > Free Power Ltd.
        >
        > Auckland New Zealand
        >
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