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Don't laugh

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  • fourboyspop
    I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it to sound more like a
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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      I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an
      Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
      to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness. I just
      can't find anything that this mic is good for and I really can't
      afford to buy a good mic for vocals or guitar. I have a band coming in
      to my humble little studio and could really use some help here. Thanks
      alot(even if you laugh.)

      BTW does anyone have the knowledge to help me make one of these
      http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product_p/mackie-hmx56.htm it's a
      headphone distribution so each musician has their own mix.
    • Eric Benjamin
      ... I m interested. ... Doing this is predicated on your being able to find out _exactly_ what it is that differentiates the two microphones in your
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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        > wondering who is up to this challenge.
        I'm interested.

        > I have an Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
        > to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness.
        Doing this is predicated on your being able to find out _exactly_ what it is that differentiates
        the two microphones in your perceptions. The question is whether there is something specific
        and measurable about the AT4033 that makes it so you don't like it. And having characterized it,
        making circuit or acoustical changes that make it better (in your perception). If you can't measure
        it, you can't fix it. Or at least not without making a hundred different mods and listening to each
        and every one of them.

        Do you have access to a U-87? My employers own several and I can characterize them.
        But I don't have a 4033, and I don't think that I know any one who does.

        (even if you laugh.)
        I'm not laughing. I'm serious about microphone performance.

        Eric

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bo hancock
        Wow, you are awesome. I ll just say that up front. What do you need from me? would looking at the spec sheet and response help? I would say the biggest
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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          Wow, you are awesome. I'll just say that up front. What do you need from me? would looking at the spec sheet and response help? I would say the biggest difference is the warmth and smoothness of the U87. The 4033 seems brittle and to bright in the mids. Thanks again.

          Eric Benjamin <ebenj@...> wrote: > wondering who is up to this challenge.
          I'm interested.

          > I have an Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
          > to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness.
          Doing this is predicated on your being able to find out _exactly_ what it is that differentiates
          the two microphones in your perceptions. The question is whether there is something specific
          and measurable about the AT4033 that makes it so you don't like it. And having characterized it,
          making circuit or acoustical changes that make it better (in your perception). If you can't measure
          it, you can't fix it. Or at least not without making a hundred different mods and listening to each
          and every one of them.

          Do you have access to a U-87? My employers own several and I can characterize them.
          But I don't have a 4033, and I don't think that I know any one who does.

          (even if you laugh.)
          I'm not laughing. I'm serious about microphone performance.

          Eric

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • Scott Helmke
          It s definitely a good challenge! :) One big difference in the two designs, quite apart from their sound, is that the 4033 is a small-diaphragm mic while the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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            It's definitely a good challenge! :)

            One big difference in the two designs, quite apart from their sound, is that
            the 4033 is a small-diaphragm mic while the U87 is a large-diaphragm mic.
            Flip the 4033 over and look at the back of the capsule - apart from the
            perforated collar, the capsule is that little tiny thing in the middle.

            But I do have something useful to suggest as a simple modification. Another
            difference between the two mics is the shape of the grille, and therefore the
            shape of the internal space around the capsule is different. The 4033 is
            cylindrical, while the U87 has sloped front and back. One big effect on the
            sound of a mic is that shape, and the cylinder shape tends to result in a lot
            of internal reflections at certain frequencies. With my own mics I had built
            a big cylindrical mic body with the same capsule and electronics as my
            smaller mics, and it sounded much different - worse. The U87 sloped sides
            are designed to spread out the reflections and reduce that effect. So I'd
            suggest you try changing the shape of the internal space of the 4033, maybe
            by putting in some thin foam to reduce reflections or by replacing the
            cylinder screen with something flatter.

            -Scott

            On Sunday 01 July 2007 14:56, fourboyspop wrote:
            > I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an
            > Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
            > to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness. I just
            > can't find anything that this mic is good for and I really can't
            > afford to buy a good mic for vocals or guitar. I have a band coming in
            > to my humble little studio and could really use some help here. Thanks
            > alot(even if you laugh.)
            >
            > BTW does anyone have the knowledge to help me make one of these
            > http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product_p/mackie-hmx56.htm it's a
            > headphone distribution so each musician has their own mix.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            --
            ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
            And you'll visualize not taking any chances
            But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
            And expect them to rise to the occasion
            (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
          • Robert Munger
            where are you located at? Bob ... _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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              where are you located at? Bob


              >From: "fourboyspop" <fourboyspop@...>
              >Reply-To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              >To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [micbuilders] Don't laugh
              >Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:56:05 -0000
              >
              >I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an
              >Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
              >to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness. I just
              >can't find anything that this mic is good for and I really can't
              >afford to buy a good mic for vocals or guitar. I have a band coming in
              >to my humble little studio and could really use some help here. Thanks
              >alot(even if you laugh.)
              >
              >BTW does anyone have the knowledge to help me make one of these
              >http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product_p/mackie-hmx56.htm it's a
              >headphone distribution so each musician has their own mix.
              >

              _________________________________________________________________
              Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more!
              http://mobile.msn.com
            • Eric Benjamin
              ... I see that there is a really good picture available on the AT web site: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms//1223af4dfbc8ac9e/large/4033_cut_a_way_2.jpg and
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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                Scott Helmke wrote:
                >Flip the 4033 over and look at the back of the capsule - apart from the
                >perforated collar, the capsule is that little tiny thing in the middle.
                I see that there is a really good picture available on the AT web site:
                http://www.audio-technica.com/cms//1223af4dfbc8ac9e/large/4033_cut_a_way_2.jpg

                and
                >Another difference between the two mics is the shape of the grille, and
                >therefore the shape of the internal space around the capsule is different
                I would have thought that was irrelevant. But I could be wrong. Probably am
                wrong.

                Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the attenuation
                of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It turns out that the
                foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about 10 kHz, and then it
                depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1 dB. Let me assume
                that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1 dB loss means that 10% of
                the signal is reflected. If such a reflection were to occur _insdie_ the microphone
                then that means that the reflection would have an energy 20 dB below that of
                the main sound. Not entirely insignificant...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Scott Helmke
                ... Well, there s already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh screening. I don t know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:
                  > Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the
                  > attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It
                  > turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about
                  > 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1
                  > dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1
                  > dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection
                  > were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection
                  > would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely
                  > insignificant...

                  Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh
                  screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes
                  of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open
                  area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.

                  Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam
                  itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would
                  assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it
                  gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any
                  reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice!
                  And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice
                  on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly
                  reduced.

                  At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with
                  identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it
                  improved considerably.

                  -Scott

                  --
                  ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                  And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                  But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                  And expect them to rise to the occasion
                  (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                • umashankar mantravadi
                  i am in the process of completing a large diaphragm (with parts from tsb 2555) in a cylindrical, end-fire microphone, and this discussion comes almost exactly
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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                    i am in the process of completing a large diaphragm (with parts from tsb 2555) in a cylindrical, end-fire microphone, and this discussion comes almost exactly when i need it.

                    you can see a photograph of it in the tsb 2555 reloaded folder. what i had been trying to do is to replace the capsule body with a machined steel piece which forms the front end of the microphone. It is just two pieces of metal. in the open, without the body, the capsule sounds very good now, with extended low frequency response (compared to the original) and little or no coloration. what i have to see is what it will sound like when i screw it into the body. i expect the sound to deteriorate, and then try an see how i can get it back to sound like it did without the case.every trick will help. (though i think the reflection issue is probably less important in a capsule like the tsb 2555 which has substantial amount of sound absorbant material at the rear.

                    umashankar

                    i have published my poems. read (or buy) at lulu.com


                    To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.comFrom: scott@...: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:52:27 -0500Subject: Re: [micbuilders] Don't laugh




                    On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:> Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the> attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It> turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about> 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1> dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1> dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection> were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection> would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely> insignificant...Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice! And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly reduced.At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it improved considerably.-Scott-- ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----And you'll visualize not taking any chancesBut meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasionAnd expect them to rise to the occasion(from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)


                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • bo hancock
                    It s Bo(and that s ok, it s a common mistake) I m in Texas. Robert Munger wrote: where are you located
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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                      It's Bo(and that's ok, it's a common mistake) I'm in Texas.

                      Robert Munger <audisar@...> wrote: where are you located at? Bob

                      >From: "fourboyspop" <fourboyspop@...>
                      >Reply-To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [micbuilders] Don't laugh
                      >Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:56:05 -0000
                      >
                      >I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an
                      >Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
                      >to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness. I just
                      >can't find anything that this mic is good for and I really can't
                      >afford to buy a good mic for vocals or guitar. I have a band coming in
                      >to my humble little studio and could really use some help here. Thanks
                      >alot(even if you laugh.)
                      >
                      >BTW does anyone have the knowledge to help me make one of these
                      >http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product_p/mackie-hmx56.htm it's a
                      >headphone distribution so each musician has their own mix.
                      >

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                    • bo hancock
                      What would happen(if it can even be done) if I bouth a good large capsule off ebay and put it in this mic? Also thanks for all the info. I am really a newb at
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 1, 2007
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                        What would happen(if it can even be done) if I bouth a good large capsule off ebay and put it in this mic? Also thanks for all the info. I am really a newb at this but am wanting to learn, so thanks for your patience.
                        And true about the screen(foam) If I placed a foam that dampens the frequency that bothers me, then it should help a little right?

                        umashankar mantravadi <umashanks@...> wrote: i am in the process of completing a large diaphragm (with parts from tsb 2555) in a cylindrical, end-fire microphone, and this discussion comes almost exactly when i need it.

                        you can see a photograph of it in the tsb 2555 reloaded folder. what i had been trying to do is to replace the capsule body with a machined steel piece which forms the front end of the microphone. It is just two pieces of metal. in the open, without the body, the capsule sounds very good now, with extended low frequency response (compared to the original) and little or no coloration. what i have to see is what it will sound like when i screw it into the body. i expect the sound to deteriorate, and then try an see how i can get it back to sound like it did without the case.every trick will help. (though i think the reflection issue is probably less important in a capsule like the tsb 2555 which has substantial amount of sound absorbant material at the rear.

                        umashankar

                        i have published my poems. read (or buy) at lulu.com

                        To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.comFrom: scott@...: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:52:27 -0500Subject: Re: [micbuilders] Don't laugh

                        On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:> Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the> attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It> turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about> 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1> dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1> dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection> were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection> would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely> insignificant...Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.Now if we add a layer of thin
                        foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice! And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly reduced.At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it improved considerably.-Scott-- ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----And you'll visualize not taking any chancesBut meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasionAnd expect them to rise to the occasion(from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)

                        __________________________________________________________
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                      • Scott Helmke
                        ... I think that changing the capsule wouldn t be worth the trouble - the 4033 is a pretty good mic overall. By the time you got a large capsule working with
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 2, 2007
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                          On Sunday 01 July 2007 22:55, bo hancock wrote:
                          > What would happen(if it can even be done) if I bouth a good large capsule
                          > off ebay and put it in this mic? Also thanks for all the info. I am really
                          > a newb at this but am wanting to learn, so thanks for your patience. And
                          > true about the screen(foam) If I placed a foam that dampens the frequency
                          > that bothers me, then it should help a little right?

                          I think that changing the capsule wouldn't be worth the trouble - the 4033 is
                          a pretty good mic overall. By the time you got a large capsule working with
                          that circuit, you'd be most of the way towards just building a second mic
                          anyway.

                          -Scott

                          --
                          ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                          And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                          But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                          And expect them to rise to the occasion
                          (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                        • umashankar mantravadi
                          after i had posted my last mail, i mounted the capsule in a tube with no slots at all (made for another experiment). with a little bit of stuffing, it sounds
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 2, 2007
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                            after i had posted my last mail, i mounted the capsule in a tube with no slots at all (made for another experiment). with a little bit of stuffing, it sounds very neutral, and it is also extremely directional.

                            Umashankari have published my poems. read (or buy) at lulu.com


                            To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.comFrom: scott@...: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:52:27 -0500Subject: Re: [micbuilders] Don't laugh




                            On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:> Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the> attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It> turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about> 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1> dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1> dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection> were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection> would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely> insignificant...Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice! And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly reduced.At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it improved considerably.-Scott-- ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----And you'll visualize not taking any chancesBut meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasionAnd expect them to rise to the occasion(from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)


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                          • bob
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 22, 2007
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                              --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Munger" <audisar@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > where are you located at? Bob
                              > I'm just a bit north of Bremerton Wa
                              >
                              > >From: "fourboyspop" <fourboyspop@...>
                              > >Reply-To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                              > >To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Subject: [micbuilders] Don't laugh
                              > >Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:56:05 -0000
                              > >
                              > >I am new here and wondering who is up to this challenge. I have an
                              > >Audio Technica AT4033 and I was wondering if anyone can help me mod it
                              > >to sound more like a U87. Ok, atleats take out the brittleness. I just
                              > >can't find anything that this mic is good for and I really can't
                              > >afford to buy a good mic for vocals or guitar. I have a band coming in
                              > >to my humble little studio and could really use some help here. Thanks
                              > >alot(even if you laugh.)
                              > >
                              > >BTW does anyone have the knowledge to help me make one of these
                              > >http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product_p/mackie-hmx56.htm it's a
                              > >headphone distribution so each musician has their own mix.
                              > >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more!
                              > http://mobile.msn.com
                              >
                            • asacopeichin1
                              Hi Guys, Very interesting topic. I m in the same situation. I ve beeing using a couple of 4033s for some years. I use them in almost very session because i
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                Hi Guys,

                                Very interesting topic. I'm in the same situation. I've beeing using a couple of 4033s for some years. I use them in almost very session because i don't have a huge stash of mics available, but every time I find them too harsh and brittle, and usually thin too. I've never found any good use or application for them besides all the praising going all around about this mic. I don't intend to necessarily make it sound like an 87, just more pleasant and usable. Or in other words, as good as it's supposed to be. When I want a mic to bark I have a few options working better than the 4033. For me these "good" mics are the ones to use when the rest are already in use. Never a first choice.

                                So, what kind of foam should be used for this? And how to place it? all over the grille or just specific areas? I'm pretty new in tampering microphones. No idea about where to start.

                                Also, a good way to reduce the overall output internally? These modern oriental mics having infimum output impedances like to overdrive anything even with the preamps turned all the way down and pads on. I really hate this current "let's make it hotter rush". It's a real pain dealing with these mics.

                                Thanks,

                                Paco.




                                --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:
                                > > Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the
                                > > attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It
                                > > turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about
                                > > 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1
                                > > dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1
                                > > dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection
                                > > were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection
                                > > would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely
                                > > insignificant...
                                >
                                > Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh
                                > screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes
                                > of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open
                                > area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.
                                >
                                > Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam
                                > itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would
                                > assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it
                                > gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any
                                > reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice!
                                > And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice
                                > on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly
                                > reduced.
                                >
                                > At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with
                                > identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it
                                > improved considerably.
                                >
                                > -Scott
                                >
                                > --
                                > ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                > And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                > But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                > And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                > (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                >
                              • Jerry Lee Marcel
                                ... You can t assume that; the loss is almost entirely due to the absorption ... No; most of the energy is dissipated as heat. ... means that the reflection
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                  > > On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:
                                  > > > Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the
                                  > > > attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It
                                  > > > turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB)
                                  > below about
                                  > > > 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by
                                  > about 1
                                  > > > dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection.
                                  You can't assume that; the loss is almost entirely due to the absorption
                                  >
                                  > > >Then a 1 dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected.
                                  No; most of the energy is dissipated as heat.

                                  > >If such a reflection were to occur _inside_ the microphone then that
                                  means that the reflection
                                  > > would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely
                                  > > insignificant...
                                  Since the energy is absorbed by foam, it is not reflected, so it is true
                                  that absorbing materials do not reflect as much as non-absorbing.
                                  The results you experience with your addition of foam are not
                                  surprising; you combine the benefits of absorbing a little HF where you
                                  think there is too much, and you break the internal reflection pattern
                                  established by the grid.
                                • Scott Helmke
                                  Wow, that s an old thread! I use automotive headliner foam from the fabric store - it s thin open-cell foam with cloth glued to one side. I just peel off the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                    Wow, that's an old thread!

                                    I use automotive headliner foam from the fabric store - it's thin
                                    open-cell foam with cloth glued to one side. I just peel off the cloth.

                                    You'd want to line the inside of the grill with the stuff.

                                    -Scott

                                    On 09/01/2011 05:54 AM, asacopeichin1 wrote:
                                    > Hi Guys,
                                    >
                                    > Very interesting topic. I'm in the same situation. I've beeing using a couple of 4033s for some years. I use them in almost very session because i don't have a huge stash of mics available, but every time I find them too harsh and brittle, and usually thin too. I've never found any good use or application for them besides all the praising going all around about this mic. I don't intend to necessarily make it sound like an 87, just more pleasant and usable. Or in other words, as good as it's supposed to be. When I want a mic to bark I have a few options working better than the 4033. For me these "good" mics are the ones to use when the rest are already in use. Never a first choice.
                                    >
                                    > So, what kind of foam should be used for this? And how to place it? all over the grille or just specific areas? I'm pretty new in tampering microphones. No idea about where to start.
                                    >
                                    > Also, a good way to reduce the overall output internally? These modern oriental mics having infimum output impedances like to overdrive anything even with the preamps turned all the way down and pads on. I really hate this current "let's make it hotter rush". It's a real pain dealing with these mics.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    >
                                    > Paco.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke<scott@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:
                                    >>> Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the
                                    >>> attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It
                                    >>> turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about
                                    >>> 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1
                                    >>> dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1
                                    >>> dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection
                                    >>> were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection
                                    >>> would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely
                                    >>> insignificant...
                                    >>
                                    >> Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh
                                    >> screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes
                                    >> of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open
                                    >> area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.
                                    >>
                                    >> Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam
                                    >> itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would
                                    >> assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it
                                    >> gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any
                                    >> reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice!
                                    >> And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice
                                    >> on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly
                                    >> reduced.
                                    >>
                                    >> At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with
                                    >> identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it
                                    >> improved considerably.
                                    >>
                                    >> -Scott
                                    >>
                                    >> --
                                    >> ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                    >> And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                    >> But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                    >> And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                    >> (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                    And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                    But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                    And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                    (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                  • umashankar
                                    no wonder. i was thinking, how did i miss this?   umashankar i have published my poems. you can read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar From: Scott
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                      no wonder. i was thinking, how did i miss this?
                                       
                                      umashankar

                                      i have published my poems. you can read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar

                                      From: Scott Helmke <scott@...>
                                      >To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 5:57 PM
                                      >Subject: Re: [micbuilders] Re: Don't laugh
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >Wow, that's an old thread!
                                      >
                                      >I use automotive headliner foam from the fabric store - it's thin
                                      >open-cell foam with cloth glued to one side. I just peel off the cloth.
                                      >
                                      >You'd want to line the inside of the grill with the stuff.
                                      >
                                      >-Scott
                                      >
                                      >On 09/01/2011 05:54 AM, asacopeichin1 wrote:
                                      >> Hi Guys,
                                      >>
                                      >> Very interesting topic. I'm in the same situation. I've beeing using a couple of 4033s for some years. I use them in almost very session because i don't have a huge stash of mics available, but every time I find them too harsh and brittle, and usually thin too. I've never found any good use or application for them besides all the praising going all around about this mic. I don't intend to necessarily make it sound like an 87, just more pleasant and usable. Or in other words, as good as it's supposed to be. When I want a mic to bark I have a few options working better than the 4033. For me these "good" mics are the ones to use when the rest are already in use. Never a first choice.
                                      >>
                                      >> So, what kind of foam should be used for this? And how to place it? all over the grille or just specific areas? I'm pretty new in tampering microphones. No idea about where to start.
                                      >>
                                      >> Also, a good way to reduce the overall output internally? These modern oriental mics having infimum output impedances like to overdrive anything even with the preamps turned all the way down and pads on. I really hate this current "let's make it hotter rush". It's a real pain dealing with these mics.
                                      >>
                                      >> Thanks,
                                      >>
                                      >> Paco.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke<scott@...> wrote:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:40, Eric Benjamin wrote:
                                      >>>> Here's a thought. I just finished making some measurements of the
                                      >>>> attenuation of a foam type windscreen for a DPA quad capsule array. It
                                      >>>> turns out that the foam does almost nothing (less than 0.15 dB) below about
                                      >>>> 10 kHz, and then it depresses the range between 10 and 20 kHz by about 1
                                      >>>> dB. Let me assume that the loss is entirely due to reflection. Then a 1
                                      >>>> dB loss means that 10% of the signal is reflected. If such a reflection
                                      >>>> were to occur _insdie_ the microphone then that means that the reflection
                                      >>>> would have an energy 20 dB below that of the main sound. Not entirely
                                      >>>> insignificant...
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Well, there's already a reflection from the inside surface of the metal mesh
                                      >>> screening. I don't know the exact size used, but looking at the likely sizes
                                      >>> of woven wire mesh at McMaster-Carr gives a range of roughly 30-60% open
                                      >>> area. So the wire grille itself is reflecting a significant amount of sound.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Now if we add a layer of thin foam, it can't get any worse even if the foam
                                      >>> itself is completely reflective. But since it's a soft material I would
                                      >>> assert that it tends to absorb those higher frequencies. Now here's where it
                                      >>> gets interesting - the incoming sound goes through the foam once. Any
                                      >>> reflection from the inside of the wire mesh has to go through the foam twice!
                                      >>> And any reflections bouncing around would have to go through the foam twice
                                      >>> on every reflection, so standing waves should in theory be significantly
                                      >>> reduced.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> At any rate, my 2" diameter mic sounded bad compared to my smaller mics with
                                      >>> identical capsule and electronics - and when I added a layer of foam it
                                      >>> improved considerably.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> -Scott
                                      >>>
                                      >>> --
                                      >>> ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                      >>> And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                      >>> But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                      >>> And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                      >>> (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >--
                                      >---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                      >And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                      >But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                      >And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                      >(from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • asacopeichin1
                                      Thanks a bunch, Scott! Now I only have to figure out how automotive headliner translates into spanish! LOL! I ll try that whatever stuff it is. I ve been
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                        Thanks a bunch, Scott!

                                        Now I only have to figure out how "automotive headliner" translates into spanish! LOL!

                                        I'll try that whatever stuff it is.

                                        I've been seriously thinking about selling the pair and grabbing four 2020 for the price. I have four 2020s at the club I work as a FOH engineer and borrow them often for my recording sessions. I always prefer them over my own 4033s and use them gladly on everything. Technically 4033s are superior mics and the specs talk by themselves, but comparing response curves and results. The 2020s are winners for my ears every time besides getting noticeably more spill that the 33s. The 20s are way fuller and sweeter sounding. Maybe a tad in the bright side but nothing painful.

                                        I'll give the 4033s another chance with the foam. If I don't get the results I need I think I'll take the 2020 route.

                                        Paco.

                                        --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Wow, that's an old thread!
                                        >
                                        > I use automotive headliner foam from the fabric store - it's thin
                                        > open-cell foam with cloth glued to one side. I just peel off the cloth.
                                        >
                                        > You'd want to line the inside of the grill with the stuff.
                                        >
                                        > -Scott
                                        >
                                      • Scott Helmke
                                        It s used for the ceiling in a car - some foam a few mm thick for padding, and then nice-looking fabric on the outside. Usually easier to find and cheaper
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          It's used for the ceiling in a car - some foam a few mm thick for
                                          padding, and then nice-looking fabric on the outside. Usually easier to
                                          find and cheaper than official acoustic foam.

                                          -Scott

                                          On 09/01/2011 09:33 AM, asacopeichin1 wrote:
                                          > Thanks a bunch, Scott!
                                          >
                                          > Now I only have to figure out how "automotive headliner" translates into spanish! LOL!
                                          >
                                          > I'll try that whatever stuff it is.
                                          >
                                          > I've been seriously thinking about selling the pair and grabbing four 2020 for the price. I have four 2020s at the club I work as a FOH engineer and borrow them often for my recording sessions. I always prefer them over my own 4033s and use them gladly on everything. Technically 4033s are superior mics and the specs talk by themselves, but comparing response curves and results. The 2020s are winners for my ears every time besides getting noticeably more spill that the 33s. The 20s are way fuller and sweeter sounding. Maybe a tad in the bright side but nothing painful.
                                          >
                                          > I'll give the 4033s another chance with the foam. If I don't get the results I need I think I'll take the 2020 route.
                                          >
                                          > Paco.
                                          >
                                          > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke<scott@...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> Wow, that's an old thread!
                                          >>
                                          >> I use automotive headliner foam from the fabric store - it's thin
                                          >> open-cell foam with cloth glued to one side. I just peel off the cloth.
                                          >>
                                          >> You'd want to line the inside of the grill with the stuff.
                                          >>
                                          >> -Scott
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                          And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                          But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                          And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                          (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                        • asacopeichin1
                                          Thanks again. I got what s that stuff after some googling, but still don t know the name of that particular fabric in spanish. I ll find it. Great advice.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                            Thanks again.

                                            I got what's that stuff after some googling, but still don't know the name of that particular fabric in spanish. I'll find it. Great advice.

                                            Paco.


                                            -Scott Helmke <scott@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > It's used for the ceiling in a car - some foam a few mm thick for
                                            > padding, and then nice-looking fabric on the outside. Usually easier to
                                            > find and cheaper than official acoustic foam.
                                            >
                                            > -Scott
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