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First results from modifying TSB-165A capsule

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  • Scott Helmke
    Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, cutting away the restrictions on the front of the capsule. As recently discussed the smaller holes form a
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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      Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, cutting away the
      restrictions on the front of the capsule. As recently discussed the smaller
      holes form a sort of acoustic filter to emphasize higher frequencies
      (roughly 5-10kHz). I've been wanting to get a flatter frequency response
      out of my mics which use this capsule for some time now. People generally
      like the bright sound, but I'm more a fan of the flatter, "darker" mics.

      To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least it's a step in the
      right direction. I clamped the capsule in a vise on my drill press, and
      used one of the circle-cutter things with the center guide bit removed. It
      worked, but not elegantly and it took a lot of time to get everything lined
      up. Might just have to get one of those little hobby lathes to do it right.

      OK, enough blather. I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar with a stock
      Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
      http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3

      -Scott
      --
      ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
      And you'll visualize not taking any chances
      But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
      And expect them to rise to the occasion
      (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
    • Mike Feldman
      ... It sounds like you didn t damage the capsule too badly. And yes, the hype of the string squeaks seems to have been tempered by the mod. What was the
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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        Scott Helmke wrote:

        > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, ...
        > ... I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar with a stock
        > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
        > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3

        It sounds like you didn't damage the capsule too badly.
        And yes, the hype of the string squeaks seems to have
        been tempered by the mod. What was the relative position
        and orientation of the two mics?

        -- Mike
      • Eric Benjamin
        Scott, I m actually struck by how much alike the two microphones sound, even after your modifications. What I hear when I listen to your MP3 file as stereo is
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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          Scott,

          I'm actually struck by how much alike the two
          microphones sound, even after your modifications.
          What I hear when I listen to your MP3 file as stereo
          is that the left channel sounds a little bassier than
          the right, and the right is just a little bit hotter
          in level. That is, the stereo image is a little to
          the right of center. When I correct the image, then I
          hear what simply sounds like very narrow stereo.
          Where the two microphones side-by-side? If so,
          perhaps better results might be obtained by putting
          them over and under.

          Eric

          --- Mike Feldman <mike_feldman@...> wrote:
          > Scott Helmke wrote:
          >
          > > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A
          > capsule, ...
          > > ... I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar
          > with a stock
          > > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded
          > capsule on the right.
          > > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
          >
          > It sounds like you didn't damage the capsule too
          > badly.
          > And yes, the hype of the string squeaks seems to
          > have
          > been tempered by the mod. What was the relative
          > position
          > and orientation of the two mics?
          >
          > -- Mike
          >
          >
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        • Jason May
          ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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            > Very cool scott, is there any way you could split that file into two mono
            > files? It¹d be easier for A/B testing.
            >
            >
            > Thanks a lot.
            >
            >
            >
            > Jason
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, cutting away the
            > restrictions on the front of the capsule. As recently discussed the smaller
            > holes form a sort of acoustic filter to emphasize higher frequencies
            > (roughly 5-10kHz). I've been wanting to get a flatter frequency response
            > out of my mics which use this capsule for some time now. People generally
            > like the bright sound, but I'm more a fan of the flatter, "darker" mics.
            >
            > To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least it's a step in the
            > right direction. I clamped the capsule in a vise on my drill press, and
            > used one of the circle-cutter things with the center guide bit removed. It
            > worked, but not elegantly and it took a lot of time to get everything lined
            > up. Might just have to get one of those little hobby lathes to do it right.
            >
            > OK, enough blather. I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar with a stock
            > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
            > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
            >
            > -Scott




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott Helmke
            The two mics were about 8-10 inches away from the guitar, roughly pointed at the soundhole. They were actually rubber-banded together to make the position as
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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              The two mics were about 8-10 inches away from the guitar, roughly pointed at
              the soundhole. They were actually rubber-banded together to make the
              position as similar as possible, with one mic on top of the other instead of
              side-by-side.

              I didn't try very hard to match the levels exactly, which would be difficult
              because the frequency response is a bit different anyway. It does appear
              that the modified microphone has a hotter output, which makes sense because
              there's less stuff in front of the diaphragm. Not more than 2-3 dB, though.

              -Scott

              On Wednesday 01 June 2005 15:06, Eric Benjamin wrote:
              > Scott,
              >
              > I'm actually struck by how much alike the two
              > microphones sound, even after your modifications.
              > What I hear when I listen to your MP3 file as stereo
              > is that the left channel sounds a little bassier than
              > the right, and the right is just a little bit hotter
              > in level. That is, the stereo image is a little to
              > the right of center. When I correct the image, then I
              > hear what simply sounds like very narrow stereo.
              > Where the two microphones side-by-side? If so,
              > perhaps better results might be obtained by putting
              > them over and under.
              >
              > Eric

              --
              ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
              And you'll visualize not taking any chances
              But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
              And expect them to rise to the occasion
              (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
            • Dale
              ... vise ... the ... Conratulations on a successful outcome! I don t know what your shop looks like, but here s a couple thoughts if you decide to make
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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                --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                > . . . To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least
                > it's a step in the right direction. I clamped the capsule in a
                vise
                > on my drill press, and used one of the circle-cutter things with
                the
                > center guide bit removed. It worked, but not elegantly and it took
                > a lot of time to get everything lined up. Might just have to get
                > one of those little hobby lathes to do it right.

                Conratulations on a successful outcome! I don't know what your shop
                looks like, but here's a couple thoughts if you decide to make another
                copy. Basically, can you use your drill press as a vertical lathe -
                hold the cutting tool steady and spin the workpiece?

                The easy way out would be to simply clamp the capsule in the drill
                press chuck, hold a tool bit (or reasonable substitute, like a broken
                drill bit ground to a point) in the vise. Then set up the slowest
                spindle speed you can get and use the quill to lower the capsule
                against the tool.

                But I bet your drill press chuck won't grab the 5/8" (16mm) capsule
                diameter. If you poke around some industrial surplus dealers or used
                machinery dealers you might scare up a chuck that opens wide enough
                and fits on your drillpress spindle, but it won't be an easy search.

                You might try making a "step-down chuck" with the copper tubing you're
                building the mic's from (or any other hollow tube, like electrical
                conduit, iron pipe, or MAYBE even heavy-wall PVC). On one end you
                want an I.D. just slightly larger than the O.D. of the TSB-165
                capsule. Connect this large diameter end to a stack of adapters,
                converters, carriage bolts, etc to get down to an O.D. that your
                drillpress chuck can grab. Solder or glue the joints - this thing
                needs to be rigid and reasonably concentric.

                To actually hold the capsule, mount it in a bead of RTV or Silastic
                between the capsule and the large diameter cavity in the end of this
                "chuck". Even though we don't think of this stuff as "rigid", when it
                wraps all the way around the workpiece for a depth of 1/4" or so, it
                holds pretty tight. Perhaps more important in this case - it grips
                uniformly around the whole perimeter of the workpiece, minimizing the
                possibility of warpage or mechanical distortion.

                After machining, slit the RTV with a draftsman's knife and the capsule
                should come free. Rub the RTV residue off with a finger and the job
                is done.

                This approach - chucking the mic capsule and anchoring the cutting
                tool - has a slight advantage in the set-up, too. The tool needs to
                be positioned in only ONE dimension: the distance from the spindle
                centerline. The circle cutter technique you used (I think machinists
                refer to that as a "flycutter") actually requires a 3-position setup:
                the capsule has to be located co-axial to the drill press spindle (a
                2-dimension positioning problem) and the circle cutter has to be
                adjusted to the radius you want to cut.
              • Keith Nelsen
                Scott Don t mean to burst your bubble, BUT I like the sound of the stock Alice better. Of course my listening environment is not the best. I use a Sound
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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                  Scott

                  Don't mean to burst your bubble, BUT I like the sound of the stock Alice
                  better. Of course my listening
                  environment is not the best. I use a Sound Blaster Audigy sound card in
                  my PC. I output the sound card
                  to an Adcom 100 watt per channel amplifier driving a pair of AKG K270
                  headphones. For back-up I also
                  use a pair of DCM bookshelf speaker located on each side of my monitor.

                  In your recording I hear the resonance of the body of the guitar, while
                  that is missing on the modified Alice.
                  The highs seem to be muted. Have you run a response curve on the
                  modified caps yet?

                  Keith

                  Scott Helmke wrote:

                  >Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, cutting away the
                  >restrictions on the front of the capsule. As recently discussed the smaller
                  >holes form a sort of acoustic filter to emphasize higher frequencies
                  >(roughly 5-10kHz). I've been wanting to get a flatter frequency response
                  >out of my mics which use this capsule for some time now. People generally
                  >like the bright sound, but I'm more a fan of the flatter, "darker" mics.
                  >
                  >To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least it's a step in the
                  >right direction. I clamped the capsule in a vise on my drill press, and
                  >used one of the circle-cutter things with the center guide bit removed. It
                  >worked, but not elegantly and it took a lot of time to get everything lined
                  >up. Might just have to get one of those little hobby lathes to do it right.
                  >
                  >OK, enough blather. I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar with a stock
                  >Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                  >http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                  >
                  >-Scott
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Scott Helmke
                  Thanks for the comments. Some people really like the capsule (and therefore the Alice) just the way it is. Obviously there s a reason the capsule was
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                    Thanks for the comments. Some people really like the capsule (and therefore
                    the Alice) just the way it is. Obviously there's a reason the capsule was
                    manufactured with the HF filter!

                    Haven't done any real testing yet. I'm pretty curious about that too.

                    -Scott

                    On Wednesday 01 June 2005 21:49, Keith Nelsen wrote:
                    > Scott
                    >
                    > Don't mean to burst your bubble, BUT I like the sound of the stock Alice
                    > better. Of course my listening
                    > environment is not the best. I use a Sound Blaster Audigy sound card in
                    > my PC. I output the sound card
                    > to an Adcom 100 watt per channel amplifier driving a pair of AKG K270
                    > headphones. For back-up I also
                    > use a pair of DCM bookshelf speaker located on each side of my monitor.
                    >
                    > In your recording I hear the resonance of the body of the guitar, while
                    > that is missing on the modified Alice.
                    > The highs seem to be muted. Have you run a response curve on the
                    > modified caps yet?
                    >
                    > Keith
                    >
                    > Scott Helmke wrote:
                    > >Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule, cutting away the
                    > >restrictions on the front of the capsule. As recently discussed the
                    > > smaller holes form a sort of acoustic filter to emphasize higher
                    > > frequencies (roughly 5-10kHz). I've been wanting to get a flatter
                    > > frequency response out of my mics which use this capsule for some time
                    > > now. People generally like the bright sound, but I'm more a fan of the
                    > > flatter, "darker" mics.
                    > >
                    > >To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least it's a step in
                    > > the right direction. I clamped the capsule in a vise on my drill press,
                    > > and used one of the circle-cutter things with the center guide bit
                    > > removed. It worked, but not elegantly and it took a lot of time to get
                    > > everything lined up. Might just have to get one of those little hobby
                    > > lathes to do it right.
                    > >
                    > >OK, enough blather. I recorded a short bit of acoustic guitar with a
                    > > stock Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the
                    > > right. http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                    > >
                    > >-Scott
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                    And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                    But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                    And expect them to rise to the occasion
                    (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                  • Scott Helmke
                    Sounds like a workable, if time-consuming suggestion. You re dead-on about spinning the capsule instead of the cutter, but I basically had everything to do it
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                      Sounds like a workable, if time-consuming suggestion. You're dead-on about
                      spinning the capsule instead of the cutter, but I basically had everything
                      to do it the fly-cutter way. With your glued method I'd worry a little bit
                      about getting the face completely flat relative to the rotation, though.
                      I'm leaning more towards a real lathe chuck, probably just borrowed or
                      rented. I don't really have the space for one of those little machinist
                      lathes, much as I'd love to have one.

                      The capsule seems perfectly OK being clamped in a vise, even though it's a
                      fairly soft (aluminum and plastic) construction.

                      -Scott

                      On Wednesday 01 June 2005 17:24, Dale wrote:
                      > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                      > > . . . To do the cutting I came up with some crude, but at least
                      > > it's a step in the right direction. I clamped the capsule in a
                      >
                      > vise
                      >
                      > > on my drill press, and used one of the circle-cutter things with
                      >
                      > the
                      >
                      > > center guide bit removed. It worked, but not elegantly and it took
                      > > a lot of time to get everything lined up. Might just have to get
                      > > one of those little hobby lathes to do it right.
                      >
                      > Conratulations on a successful outcome! I don't know what your shop
                      > looks like, but here's a couple thoughts if you decide to make another
                      > copy. Basically, can you use your drill press as a vertical lathe -
                      > hold the cutting tool steady and spin the workpiece?
                      >
                      > The easy way out would be to simply clamp the capsule in the drill
                      > press chuck, hold a tool bit (or reasonable substitute, like a broken
                      > drill bit ground to a point) in the vise. Then set up the slowest
                      > spindle speed you can get and use the quill to lower the capsule
                      > against the tool.
                      >
                      > But I bet your drill press chuck won't grab the 5/8" (16mm) capsule
                      > diameter. If you poke around some industrial surplus dealers or used
                      > machinery dealers you might scare up a chuck that opens wide enough
                      > and fits on your drillpress spindle, but it won't be an easy search.
                      >
                      > You might try making a "step-down chuck" with the copper tubing you're
                      > building the mic's from (or any other hollow tube, like electrical
                      > conduit, iron pipe, or MAYBE even heavy-wall PVC). On one end you
                      > want an I.D. just slightly larger than the O.D. of the TSB-165
                      > capsule. Connect this large diameter end to a stack of adapters,
                      > converters, carriage bolts, etc to get down to an O.D. that your
                      > drillpress chuck can grab. Solder or glue the joints - this thing
                      > needs to be rigid and reasonably concentric.
                      >
                      > To actually hold the capsule, mount it in a bead of RTV or Silastic
                      > between the capsule and the large diameter cavity in the end of this
                      > "chuck". Even though we don't think of this stuff as "rigid", when it
                      > wraps all the way around the workpiece for a depth of 1/4" or so, it
                      > holds pretty tight. Perhaps more important in this case - it grips
                      > uniformly around the whole perimeter of the workpiece, minimizing the
                      > possibility of warpage or mechanical distortion.
                      >
                      > After machining, slit the RTV with a draftsman's knife and the capsule
                      > should come free. Rub the RTV residue off with a finger and the job
                      > is done.
                      >
                      > This approach - chucking the mic capsule and anchoring the cutting
                      > tool - has a slight advantage in the set-up, too. The tool needs to
                      > be positioned in only ONE dimension: the distance from the spindle
                      > centerline. The circle cutter technique you used (I think machinists
                      > refer to that as a "flycutter") actually requires a 3-position setup:
                      > the capsule has to be located co-axial to the drill press spindle (a
                      > 2-dimension positioning problem) and the circle cutter has to be
                      > adjusted to the radius you want to cut.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                      And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                      But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                      And expect them to rise to the occasion
                      (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                    • Dale
                      I probably should have stressed that I was thinking more in terms of doing several units (a couple pairs, or more) with a high level of repeatability and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                        I probably should have stressed that I was thinking more in terms of
                        doing several units (a couple pairs, or more) with a high level of
                        repeatability and unit-to-unit consistency, rather than a one-off
                        effort. The trade-off, of course, is putting time and effort into
                        building a "chuck" that you can easily pop the workpieces into and out
                        of versus carefully setting up and positioning each unit for machining.

                        If I was doing only one or two units I might use the same method you
                        did. The other possibility would be to chuck a plunge-cutting router
                        bit of a suitable O.D. in the drill press, spin it at the fastest
                        speed I had available, and lower it down against the capsule. If you
                        keep the RPM high and the feedrate low a carbide-tipped router bit can
                        leave a nearly mirror-smooth cut in soft aluminum and most plastics.
                        Some drill press spindles have more slop than the router bit likes and
                        will chatter on the cut, but you can dampen the wobble by partially
                        engaging the quill's depth lock. (You'll feel noticeable drag as you
                        try to lower the quill.) Router bits are pretty easy to find in 1/16"
                        increments of diameter, and some metric sizes are available to fill in
                        gaps between standard sizes, so you should be able to find one "close
                        enough". The advantages over the flycutter are repeatability - the
                        router bit diameter shouldn't change appreciably for the first few
                        thousand units - and more even stress distribution during machining
                        since it'll contact with 2 (or 3 or 4) flutes rather than the single
                        point of the flycutter.

                        --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                        > Sounds like a workable, if time-consuming suggestion. You're dead-on
                        > about spinning the capsule instead of the cutter, but I basically
                        > had everything to do it the fly-cutter way. With your glued method
                        > I'd worry a little bit about getting the face completely flat
                        > relative to the rotation, though. I'm leaning more towards a real
                        > lathe chuck, probably just borrowed or rented. I don't really have
                        > the space for one of those little machinist lathes, much as I'd love
                        > to have one.
                        >
                        > The capsule seems perfectly OK being clamped in a vise, even though
                        > it's a fairly soft (aluminum and plastic) construction.
                        >
                        > -Scott
                      • Mike Darling
                        FWIW, I just picked up an old (late 1940 s) 6 swing Crafstman metal lathe at an estate sale. Price was VERY reasonable. Considering the tooling that came
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                          FWIW, I just picked up an old (late 1940's) 6" swing Crafstman metal lathe
                          at an estate sale. Price was VERY reasonable. Considering the tooling that
                          came along with it, it was a damn fine deal.

                          As soon as I saw it I thought it would be perfect for this kind of work, at
                          least until I get my basement wired for 3 phase and have a job that can
                          support some larger machine purchases.

                          I just finished cleaning 50 years worth of crud off of it last night and
                          hope to get it mounted on a bench and running in the next week or so. I'd be
                          willing to machine some capsules if someone on the list wants to work up the
                          response curve measurements for them.

                          -mike

                          On 6/2/05 1:15 PM, "Dale" <dchishol@...> wrote:

                          > I probably should have stressed that I was thinking more in terms of
                          > doing several units (a couple pairs, or more) with a high level of
                          > repeatability and unit-to-unit consistency, rather than a one-off
                          > effort. The trade-off, of course, is putting time and effort into
                          > building a "chuck" that you can easily pop the workpieces into and out
                          > of versus carefully setting up and positioning each unit for machining.
                        • Dale
                          ... Keeping the face plane perpendicular to the machining axis could be problematical in ANY setup - a circular part can easily cant to one side or the other
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                            --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                            > . . . With your glued method I'd worry a little bit about
                            > getting the face completely flat relative to the rotation, . . .

                            Keeping the face plane perpendicular to the machining axis could be
                            problematical in ANY setup - a circular part can easily cant to one
                            side or the other if it's held in a parallel-jaw clamp or vise, since
                            the clamping pressure is only along 2 parallel lines.

                            When I've made the rubber-embedded chucks, I started by drilling a
                            hole that was only 0.010" to 0.020" larger than the O.D. of the
                            workpiece I was holding. Then the body of the workpiece aligned with
                            the hole bore to keep things fairly square and concentric. I can see
                            that the tapered bottom of the drilled hole also helps align and
                            position the workpiece.

                            How deep is the cavity behind that front baffle? If a cutting tool
                            broke through on one side of the cut before the other, how much deeper
                            could it advance before it damaged something?
                          • adam
                            ... If you re cranking out a bunch of these, I imagine it might be worth it to get a brass collet that is a perfect fit, and a collect fixture if you re using
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                              > doing several units (a couple pairs, or more) with a high level of
                              > repeatability and unit-to-unit consistency, rather than a one-off
                              > effort. The trade-off, of course, is putting time and effort into
                              > building a "chuck" that you can easily pop the workpieces into and out
                              > of versus carefully setting up and positioning each unit for machining.

                              If you're cranking out a bunch of these, I imagine it might be worth it
                              to get a
                              brass collet that is a perfect fit, and a collect fixture if you're
                              using a drill press or milling machine rather than a lathe.

                              -Adam
                            • Mike Feldman
                              ... Definitely a problem with 3 and 4 jaw chucks. Get a dial gauge on a magnetic base to check the runout on the face before cutting. ... Definitely worth it
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                Dale wrote:

                                > Keeping the face plane perpendicular to the machining axis could be
                                > problematical in ANY setup - a circular part can easily cant to one
                                > side or the other if it's held in a parallel-jaw clamp or vise, since
                                > the clamping pressure is only along 2 parallel lines.

                                Definitely a problem with 3 and 4 jaw chucks.

                                Get a dial gauge on a magnetic base to check the runout on the face
                                before cutting.

                                adam wrote:

                                > If you're cranking out a bunch of these, I imagine it might be worth it
                                > to get a brass collet that is a perfect fit, and a collect fixture
                                > if you're using a drill press or milling machine rather than a lathe.

                                Definitely worth it to get collets, especially if you've got more
                                than a 10 piece run.

                                Mike Darling ... did your estate sale lathe come with collets
                                and or a dial guage?

                                -- Mike
                              • Scott Helmke
                                I think what I ll do this time is just find a machine shop to do a dozen or so. At worst I know a guy an hour away that can definitely do this sort of thing
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                  I think what I'll do this time is just find a machine shop to do a dozen or
                                  so. At worst I know a guy an hour away that can definitely do this sort of
                                  thing properly.

                                  Regarding depth of cut, it's not a big issue. Behind the face is a fine wire
                                  mesh, and maybe full millimeter deeper is the diaphragm.

                                  -Scott

                                  On Thursday 02 June 2005 14:26, Mike Feldman wrote:
                                  > Dale wrote:
                                  > > Keeping the face plane perpendicular to the machining axis could be
                                  > > problematical in ANY setup - a circular part can easily cant to one
                                  > > side or the other if it's held in a parallel-jaw clamp or vise, since
                                  > > the clamping pressure is only along 2 parallel lines.
                                  >
                                  > Definitely a problem with 3 and 4 jaw chucks.
                                  >
                                  > Get a dial gauge on a magnetic base to check the runout on the face
                                  > before cutting.
                                  >
                                  > adam wrote:
                                  > > If you're cranking out a bunch of these, I imagine it might be worth it
                                  > > to get a brass collet that is a perfect fit, and a collect fixture
                                  > > if you're using a drill press or milling machine rather than a lathe.
                                  >
                                  > Definitely worth it to get collets, especially if you've got more
                                  > than a 10 piece run.
                                  >
                                  > Mike Darling ... did your estate sale lathe come with collets
                                  > and or a dial guage?
                                  >
                                  > -- Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                  And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                  But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                  And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                  (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                • Mike Darling
                                  ... It came with a 4-jaw chuck, faceplate, and 1/2 keyless chuck. I haven t seen any collet adapters floating around that will fit the 1/2-20 spindle thread,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                    --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Mike Feldman <mike_feldman@s...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Mike Darling ... did your estate sale lathe come with collets
                                    > and or a dial guage?

                                    It came with a 4-jaw chuck, faceplate, and 1/2" keyless chuck. I
                                    haven't seen any collet adapters floating around that will fit the
                                    1/2-20 spindle thread, most of the new machines use 3/4". There are a
                                    couple really nice scrolling 3-jaw chucks available that would make
                                    for less setup work.

                                    I'm lucky that I do have access to the leftover tools from 3
                                    generations of machinists that came before me. Lots of stuff,
                                    including dial indicators, magnetic bases, etc are at my disposal.
                                    Unfortunately the tools are split between my parents house in LA and
                                    my house in NJ at the moment, but next time I visit i plan on bringing
                                    back some goodies if I can wrangle them from my dad.

                                    Besides, dial guages are just luxury items - according to my shop
                                    manual (ca. 1902) all you need to get work centered in a 4-jaw chuck
                                    is a piece of chalk, some free time, and a little intuition :)

                                    -mike
                                  • Dale
                                    ... Slightly OT: You may want to join up with the Yahoo Lathe-List group at . A lot of chatter on that group
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                      --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Darling" <miked2002@e...> wrote:
                                      > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Mike Feldman <mike_feldman@s...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Mike Darling ... did your estate sale lathe come with collets
                                      > > and or a dial guage?
                                      >
                                      > It came with a 4-jaw chuck, faceplate, and 1/2" keyless chuck. . .

                                      Slightly OT: You may want to join up with the Yahoo "Lathe-List" group
                                      at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/>. A lot of chatter on
                                      that group about restoring, repairing and upgrading machines like
                                      yours. Be prepared to catch a little flak if you mention your
                                      machine's brand-name - they concentrate on a different manufacturer -
                                      but you should be able to get practical answers to "How do I . . . .
                                      ?" kinds of questions.

                                      p.s. - When I saw the "68040" in your I.D. I thought you might not be
                                      too far down the road from 63005.
                                    • Mike Darling
                                      ... Thanks, i ll check it out. More info is always better! FWIW, there is a group for these little lathes too. I ve only been on for about a week, and not much
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                        --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Dale" <dchishol@c...> wrote:

                                        > Slightly OT: You may want to join up with the Yahoo "Lathe-List" group
                                        > at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lathe-list/>.

                                        Thanks, i'll check it out. More info is always better! FWIW, there is
                                        a group for these little lathes too. I've only been on for about a
                                        week, and not much traffic:

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_109_Lathe_Users_Group/

                                        > p.s. - When I saw the "68040" in your I.D. I thought you might not be
                                        > too far down the road from 63005.

                                        Nope, just needed a number to set me apart from all the rest of the
                                        mike's on yahoo! Yes, i am a geek:
                                        http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/86/75.htm

                                        -mike
                                      • Mike Feldman
                                        ... And a good brass mallet!
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                          Mike Darling wrote:

                                          > Besides, dial guages are just luxury items - according to my shop
                                          > manual (ca. 1902) all you need to get work centered in a 4-jaw chuck
                                          > is a piece of chalk, some free time, and a little intuition :)

                                          And a good brass mallet!
                                        • Dale
                                          ... The Mot 68040?!?!? I should have guessed - considering what this group is, and that the title line of my business card says Analog Artisan , I ought to
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                            --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Darling" <miked2002@e...> wrote:
                                            > Nope, just needed a number to set me apart from all the rest of the
                                            > mike's on yahoo! Yes, i am a geek:
                                            > http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/86/75.htm
                                            >
                                            > -mike

                                            The Mot 68040?!?!? I should have guessed - considering what this
                                            group is, and that the title line of my business card says "Analog
                                            Artisan", I ought to be shouting "TREASON! BLASPHEMY! ". But then
                                            again, I've been essentially unemployed for over 2 years and every
                                            dime I've brought home for the last 12 months has been from writing
                                            assembly code for Microchip 16Fxxx micros.
                                          • Dale
                                            ... I believe it was Bob Rosendahl, The Router Man , who toured the country giving hands-on seminars at woodworker s shows - and, when it came time to nudge
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                              --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Mike Feldman <mike_feldman@s...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > Mike Darling wrote:
                                              >
                                              > And a good brass mallet!

                                              I believe it was Bob Rosendahl, "The Router Man", who toured the
                                              country giving hands-on seminars at woodworker's shows - and, when it
                                              came time to nudge the fence on the router table, his standard sight
                                              gag was to produce a machinist's ball-pean hammer prominently labeled
                                              "ADJUSTER" on one side of the handle, and "NO CAL REQ'D" on the other.
                                            • Rich Peet
                                              ... I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5. The display is an average response over your entire sound file. The only real difference I can see is that the mod
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                                --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule

                                                ...

                                                > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                                                > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                                                >
                                                > -Scott

                                                I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5.
                                                The display is an average response over your entire sound file.

                                                The only real difference I can see is that the mod capsule is 2.5 db
                                                hotter below 250 cycles. Other than that they seem to me to be good
                                                enough to call a matched pair.

                                                50kb download at:
                                                http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG

                                                Rich Peet
                                              • Scott Helmke
                                                Interesting outcome. Though I d very interested to see a smoother source, since there s so much transient stuff to really see how the higher frequencies match
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                                  Interesting outcome. Though I'd very interested to see a smoother source,
                                                  since there's so much transient stuff to really see how the higher
                                                  frequencies match up. I'm pretty sure I'm hearing a difference, anyway.

                                                  Any requests for pink noise or a sine sweep? I could email you the .wav
                                                  files.

                                                  -Scott

                                                  On Friday 03 June 2005 15:31, Rich Peet wrote:
                                                  > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                  > > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule
                                                  >
                                                  > ...
                                                  >
                                                  > > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                                                  > > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -Scott
                                                  >
                                                  > I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5.
                                                  > The display is an average response over your entire sound file.
                                                  >
                                                  > The only real difference I can see is that the mod capsule is 2.5 db
                                                  > hotter below 250 cycles. Other than that they seem to me to be good
                                                  > enough to call a matched pair.
                                                  >
                                                  > 50kb download at:
                                                  > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                  >
                                                  > Rich Peet
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  --
                                                  ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                                  And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                                  But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                                  And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                                  (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                                • Rich Peet
                                                  sure, e-mail me a wave under 5 megs per e-mail. richpeet at comcast.net Rich ... source, ... .wav
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                                    sure, e-mail me a wave under 5 megs per e-mail.
                                                    richpeet at comcast.net
                                                    Rich

                                                    --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                    > Interesting outcome. Though I'd very interested to see a smoother
                                                    source,
                                                    > since there's so much transient stuff to really see how the higher
                                                    > frequencies match up. I'm pretty sure I'm hearing a difference, anyway.
                                                    >
                                                    > Any requests for pink noise or a sine sweep? I could email you the
                                                    .wav
                                                    > files.
                                                    >
                                                    > -Scott
                                                    >
                                                    > On Friday 03 June 2005 15:31, Rich Peet wrote:
                                                    > > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                    > > > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                                                    > > > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -Scott
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5.
                                                    > > The display is an average response over your entire sound file.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The only real difference I can see is that the mod capsule is 2.5 db
                                                    > > hotter below 250 cycles. Other than that they seem to me to be good
                                                    > > enough to call a matched pair.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 50kb download at:
                                                    > > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rich Peet
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > --
                                                    > ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@s... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                                    > And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                                    > But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                                    > And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                                    > (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                                  • Joakim Lindén
                                                    I noticed that your window size is set to the default 4086 (or 4096, I don t remember exactly). If you bump the window size up to the maximum 65536 you ll get
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                      I noticed that your window size is set to the default 4086 (or 4096, I don't remember exactly). If you bump the window size up to the maximum 65536 you'll get a much better overall frequency representation - it will however take longer to process. Just select the entire wave and click the "scan" button in the Frequency Analysis window.
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: Rich Peet
                                                      To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:31 PM
                                                      Subject: [micbuilders] Re: First results from modifying TSB-165A capsule


                                                      --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                      > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule

                                                      ...

                                                      > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                                                      > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                                                      >
                                                      > -Scott

                                                      I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5.
                                                      The display is an average response over your entire sound file.

                                                      The only real difference I can see is that the mod capsule is 2.5 db
                                                      hotter below 250 cycles. Other than that they seem to me to be good
                                                      enough to call a matched pair.

                                                      50kb download at:
                                                      http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG

                                                      Rich Peet





                                                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/micbuilders/

                                                      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      micbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Rich Peet
                                                      file changed to 65,536 window and reposted under same name. Kicks up the low end to a 3 db difference. Rich ... I don t remember exactly). If you bump the
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                        file changed to 65,536 window and reposted under same name. Kicks up
                                                        the low end to a 3 db difference.
                                                        Rich

                                                        --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Joakim Lindén <joakim.linden@c...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        > I noticed that your window size is set to the default 4086 (or 4096,
                                                        I don't remember exactly). If you bump the window size up to the
                                                        maximum 65536 you'll get a much better overall frequency
                                                        representation - it will however take longer to process. Just select
                                                        the entire wave and click the "scan" button in the Frequency Analysis
                                                        window.
                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                        > From: Rich Peet
                                                        > To: micbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:31 PM
                                                        > Subject: [micbuilders] Re: First results from modifying TSB-165A
                                                        capsule
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                        > > Finally got around to modifying a TSB-165A capsule
                                                        >
                                                        > ...
                                                        >
                                                        > > Alice on the left and an Alice with the modded capsule on the right.
                                                        > > http://www.scotthelmke.com/tsb165-vs-modded.mp3
                                                        > >
                                                        > > -Scott
                                                        >
                                                        > I ran a freq analysis on Audition 1.5.
                                                        > The display is an average response over your entire sound file.
                                                        >
                                                        > The only real difference I can see is that the mod capsule is 2.5 db
                                                        > hotter below 250 cycles. Other than that they seem to me to be good
                                                        > enough to call a matched pair.
                                                        >
                                                        > 50kb download at:
                                                        > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                        >
                                                        > Rich Peet
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/micbuilders/
                                                        >
                                                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                        > micbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >
                                                        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                        Service.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Scott Helmke
                                                        Sorry about the delay on getting out a pink noise sample. Should do that fairly soon. -Scott ... -- ... And you ll visualize not taking any chances But meet
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                          Sorry about the delay on getting out a pink noise sample. Should do that
                                                          fairly soon.

                                                          -Scott

                                                          On Monday 06 June 2005 16:53, Rich Peet wrote:
                                                          > file changed to 65,536 window and reposted under same name. Kicks up
                                                          > the low end to a 3 db difference.
                                                          > Rich
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Joakim Lindén <joakim.linden@c...>
                                                          >
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          > > I noticed that your window size is set to the default 4086 (or 4096,
                                                          >
                                                          > I don't remember exactly). If you bump the window size up to the
                                                          > maximum 65536 you'll get a much better overall frequency
                                                          > representation - it will however take longer to process. Just select
                                                          > the entire wave and click the "scan" button in the Frequency Analysis
                                                          > window.

                                                          --
                                                          ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                                          And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                                          But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                                          And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                                          (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                                        • Rich Peet
                                                          No problem, This group should be happy with a response in a week to a post. I do not expect to move at the speed of this computer as that would take the fun
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            No problem, This group should be happy with a response in a week to a
                                                            post. I do not expect to move at the speed of this computer as that
                                                            would take the fun out of it.

                                                            Linked is two .jpg files that show the comparison of your mod. using
                                                            pink noise as the source.

                                                            Your mod gives a much nicer bass response. But take that from the guy
                                                            spending way to much time modifying mkh-110's because they are low
                                                            noise to 1 cycle for use in surround.

                                                            There is a blip at 15,500 cycles seen in your mod, and I would take
                                                            the bass and live with the blip at 15.5 any day. But if I had to
                                                            publish freq curves for a marketing department the choice would be hard.

                                                            two 125 kb downloads:
                                                            http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                            and the same file illustrated linear at
                                                            http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test1.JPG

                                                            Rich

                                                            --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                            > Sorry about the delay on getting out a pink noise sample. Should
                                                            do that
                                                            > fairly soon.
                                                            >
                                                            > -Scott
                                                          • Scott Helmke
                                                            Thanks, Rich. I came up with some similar graphs after spending a few minutes figuring out Audacity. I d really only look at the differences, since the
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Thanks, Rich. I came up with some similar graphs after spending a few
                                                              minutes figuring out Audacity. I'd really only look at the differences,
                                                              since the recording was just made about a foot in front of a typical home
                                                              studio monitor in a room with not especially great acoustics. That and I
                                                              didn't think to turn off the other monitor...but at least I took off the
                                                              windscreens (which are slightly different) and made sure the two mics were
                                                              side-by-side so that they'd get an equal mix of woofer and tweeter.

                                                              It's possible that the weirdness at 15kHz was caused by the sloppy nature of
                                                              this first mod - the hole is slightly off-center, such that there's an
                                                              overhang on one side.

                                                              -Scott

                                                              On Tuesday 07 June 2005 16:52, Rich Peet wrote:
                                                              > No problem, This group should be happy with a response in a week to a
                                                              > post. I do not expect to move at the speed of this computer as that
                                                              > would take the fun out of it.
                                                              >
                                                              > Linked is two .jpg files that show the comparison of your mod. using
                                                              > pink noise as the source.
                                                              >
                                                              > Your mod gives a much nicer bass response. But take that from the guy
                                                              > spending way to much time modifying mkh-110's because they are low
                                                              > noise to 1 cycle for use in surround.
                                                              >
                                                              > There is a blip at 15,500 cycles seen in your mod, and I would take
                                                              > the bass and live with the blip at 15.5 any day. But if I had to
                                                              > publish freq curves for a marketing department the choice would be hard.
                                                              >
                                                              > two 125 kb downloads:
                                                              > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                              > and the same file illustrated linear at
                                                              > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test1.JPG
                                                              >
                                                              > Rich
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                              > > Sorry about the delay on getting out a pink noise sample. Should
                                                              >
                                                              > do that
                                                              >
                                                              > > fairly soon.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > -Scott
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >

                                                              --
                                                              ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                                              And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                                              But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                                              And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                                              (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
                                                            • Scott Helmke
                                                              You know, I just realized that I d had the mixer low-cut filters engaged when I did that test. So if you re wondering why things drop off rather suddenly
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jun 8, 2005
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                You know, I just realized that I'd had the mixer low-cut filters engaged when
                                                                I did that test. So if you're wondering why things drop off rather suddenly
                                                                below some 80Hz, that's why. I need to do the test over, and with a couple
                                                                of more standard mics too.

                                                                -Scott

                                                                On Tuesday 07 June 2005 16:52, Rich Peet wrote:
                                                                > No problem, This group should be happy with a response in a week to a
                                                                > post. I do not expect to move at the speed of this computer as that
                                                                > would take the fun out of it.
                                                                >
                                                                > Linked is two .jpg files that show the comparison of your mod. using
                                                                > pink noise as the source.
                                                                >
                                                                > Your mod gives a much nicer bass response. But take that from the guy
                                                                > spending way to much time modifying mkh-110's because they are low
                                                                > noise to 1 cycle for use in surround.
                                                                >
                                                                > There is a blip at 15,500 cycles seen in your mod, and I would take
                                                                > the bass and live with the blip at 15.5 any day. But if I had to
                                                                > publish freq curves for a marketing department the choice would be hard.
                                                                >
                                                                > two 125 kb downloads:
                                                                > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test.JPG
                                                                > and the same file illustrated linear at
                                                                > http://home.comcast.net/~richpeet/test1.JPG
                                                                >
                                                                > Rich
                                                                >
                                                                > --- In micbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Helmke <scott@s...> wrote:
                                                                > > Sorry about the delay on getting out a pink noise sample. Should
                                                                >
                                                                > do that
                                                                >
                                                                > > fairly soon.
                                                                > >
                                                                > > -Scott
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >

                                                                --
                                                                ---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
                                                                And you'll visualize not taking any chances
                                                                But meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion
                                                                And expect them to rise to the occasion
                                                                (from "Glad Tidings", by Van Morrison)
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