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Re: Nylon-12 Sintered bearing?

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  • ipeerbhai@ymail.com
    Nylon-12 as the gantry, since the part can be monolithic. If I can make a bearing surface out of the nylon, then I have no need for added parts/complexity.
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 29, 2013
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      Nylon-12 as the gantry, since the part can be monolithic. If I can make a bearing surface out of the nylon, then I have no need for added parts/complexity. Laser sintering makes the micRo design slightly more practical to produce.

      If I wanted a separate bearing, I've already found good pre-manufactured, affordable, plain bearings and rolling bearings. I also have designed a new carriage that can be 3d printed or 3-axis milled to mount those existing bearings, and already have that designed to mount to T-Slot. Here's one of my prototype plain bearing test videos:
      http://peerbhairobotics.com/2012/11/02/bearing-experiment-results/

      As you can see -- T-Slot + added bearings just doesn't match the look and feel of the micRo. T-Slot can look nice. Bearings can look nice. But for now, for purely aesthetic purposes, I prefer the micRo's look. My target is to figure out how to make it affordable and to good quality. Nylon-12 sinters at 80% density. Nylon is inherently stronger than HDPE. So, 80% density nylon should match HDPE characteristics in almost everything but color, surface quality, and water resistance. Color is better -- HDPE has a more "cream" color than Nylon. Surface quality -- not so much. But -- nylon can be polished and dyed to create a very nice surface. ( Hot pink CNC mill, anyone? ) Water resistance is pretty bad, but nylon can be sealed. With a good hand-reamer, I think it might be bearing grade. But again, the test is expensive... I'd rather find if someone has already done it...


      --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Njae...
      >
      > Why not make a bearing out of a chunk of Delrin or HPDE? It's the same material as the micRO is made of. I suggest touser the cermaic coated aluminium rods as the original micRO as they are cheap and very(!) good.
      >
      > Also, do not fall into the size matters trap! Go for a M2 design. The M3 is to big and the base flexes. By using a more rigid base, most of the flex problem will go away. And another lesson learned! T-slot base! Don't even consider the cheapo hole solution we have now.
      >
      > You might need to re design the support parts, especially the corners. They take a lot of load and a sintered part will flex. Possibly adding a metal support part.
      >
      > Alternatively, use steel rods and get copper bronxe besarings to sacrew on the gantry parts.
      >
      > Hmm, I might need to get me some kind of 3D printer for xmas this year?
      > I'm not sure for what reason but I still have a few months left :)
      >
      > My list of "upgrades" for the micRO is:
      >
      > More rigid base. Possible scale down to M2 by buying new and shorter rods and screws.
      >
      > The base designed as a full sized vacuum table with T-slot blocks add ons.
      >
      > A new spindle with tapered contact bearing at bottom. ( working on it )
      >
      >
      > //Dan, M0DFI
      >
      > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 18:52:36 -0000
      > "ipeerbhai@..." <ipeerbhai@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Hi All,
      > >
      > > I recently came to own a used MakerBot. It can print a part that visibly meets tolerance requirements for the micRo. This means the support stanchions might function when 3d printed. Might.
      > >
      > > Next up is the Gantry. I've been wondering about laser sintered nylon-12 -- like you can get from Ponoko. It costs $300 a part to get a laser-sintered gantry component from there ( so about $900 USD ) using nylon-12. I know nylon makes a good bearing -- but sintering makes a bad bearing. I'm thinking using the MakerBot to make all the non-moving parts, and then using Ponoko to make the moving parts. I've been really impressed with the Replicator 2. By and far, a very good 3d printer. All tolerances from a MakerBot part seem to be around .2mm -- around .008". Moreover, error seems consistent -- you can characterize it. This is awesome -- I can characterize it well enough to compensate in my CAD models, and with a hair of work, get a part that is more accurate than the stated error.
      > >
      > > My question -- anyone have any experience sintering nylon-12 then reaming it into a bearing? I'd hate to risk $300+ ream + shipping just to find out what the answer to that question is...
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Dan Andersson
      Do you have any numbers on the cost of printing yet? Say four corner posts an the gantry parts? The original micRO can produce spare parts with enough quality
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 29, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Do you have any numbers on the cost of printing yet?

        Say four corner posts an the gantry parts?

        The original micRO can produce spare parts with enough quality and by using hand reamers, you achieve good enough bearing quality holes.

        But that require you to have a micRO at hand and these are a bit difficult to get as we know...


        //Dan


        On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:45:53 -0000
        "ipeerbhai@..." <ipeerbhai@...> wrote:

        > Nylon-12 as the gantry, since the part can be monolithic. If I can make a bearing surface out of the nylon, then I have no need for added parts/complexity. Laser sintering makes the micRo design slightly more practical to produce.
        >
        > If I wanted a separate bearing, I've already found good pre-manufactured, affordable, plain bearings and rolling bearings. I also have designed a new carriage that can be 3d printed or 3-axis milled to mount those existing bearings, and already have that designed to mount to T-Slot. Here's one of my prototype plain bearing test videos:
        > http://peerbhairobotics.com/2012/11/02/bearing-experiment-results/
        >
        > As you can see -- T-Slot + added bearings just doesn't match the look and feel of the micRo. T-Slot can look nice. Bearings can look nice. But for now, for purely aesthetic purposes, I prefer the micRo's look. My target is to figure out how to make it affordable and to good quality. Nylon-12 sinters at 80% density. Nylon is inherently stronger than HDPE. So, 80% density nylon should match HDPE characteristics in almost everything but color, surface quality, and water resistance. Color is better -- HDPE has a more "cream" color than Nylon. Surface quality -- not so much. But -- nylon can be polished and dyed to create a very nice surface. ( Hot pink CNC mill, anyone? ) Water resistance is pretty bad, but nylon can be sealed. With a good hand-reamer, I think it might be bearing grade. But again, the test is expensive... I'd rather find if someone has already done it...
        >
        >
        > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Njae...
        > >
        > > Why not make a bearing out of a chunk of Delrin or HPDE? It's the same material as the micRO is made of. I suggest touser the cermaic coated aluminium rods as the original micRO as they are cheap and very(!) good.
        > >
        > > Also, do not fall into the size matters trap! Go for a M2 design. The M3 is to big and the base flexes. By using a more rigid base, most of the flex problem will go away. And another lesson learned! T-slot base! Don't even consider the cheapo hole solution we have now.
        > >
        > > You might need to re design the support parts, especially the corners. They take a lot of load and a sintered part will flex. Possibly adding a metal support part.
        > >
        > > Alternatively, use steel rods and get copper bronxe besarings to sacrew on the gantry parts.
        > >
        > > Hmm, I might need to get me some kind of 3D printer for xmas this year?
        > > I'm not sure for what reason but I still have a few months left :)
        > >
        > > My list of "upgrades" for the micRO is:
        > >
        > > More rigid base. Possible scale down to M2 by buying new and shorter rods and screws.
        > >
        > > The base designed as a full sized vacuum table with T-slot blocks add ons.
        > >
        > > A new spindle with tapered contact bearing at bottom. ( working on it )
        > >
        > >
        > > //Dan, M0DFI
        > >
        > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 18:52:36 -0000
        > > "ipeerbhai@..." <ipeerbhai@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Hi All,
        > > >
        > > > I recently came to own a used MakerBot. It can print a part that visibly meets tolerance requirements for the micRo. This means the support stanchions might function when 3d printed. Might.
        > > >
        > > > Next up is the Gantry. I've been wondering about laser sintered nylon-12 -- like you can get from Ponoko. It costs $300 a part to get a laser-sintered gantry component from there ( so about $900 USD ) using nylon-12. I know nylon makes a good bearing -- but sintering makes a bad bearing. I'm thinking using the MakerBot to make all the non-moving parts, and then using Ponoko to make the moving parts. I've been really impressed with the Replicator 2. By and far, a very good 3d printer. All tolerances from a MakerBot part seem to be around .2mm -- around .008". Moreover, error seems consistent -- you can characterize it. This is awesome -- I can characterize it well enough to compensate in my CAD models, and with a hair of work, get a part that is more accurate than the stated error.
        > > >
        > > > My question -- anyone have any experience sintering nylon-12 then reaming it into a bearing? I'd hate to risk $300+ ream + shipping just to find out what the answer to that question is...
        > > >
        > > > Thanks!
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • ipeerbhai@ymail.com
        Each corner piece weighs about 250g when printed at 80% infill. The plastic costs about $50/KG. So, all 4 pieces cost about $50 to print on a MakerBot. That s
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 29, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Each corner piece weighs about 250g when printed at 80% infill.
          The plastic costs about $50/KG.
          So, all 4 pieces cost about $50 to print on a MakerBot.

          That's $12.50 a piece. ( Let's toss in some fudge factor to cover bad math, tax, shipping, etc... So, let's add another $10 to each piece. 'Cause hey, why not? ) -- $22.50/part. The printed material can be tapped. Undersize the holes, add extra shells, tap the holes, insert helicoil, and you've got a part stronger than the original -- for about $25. With .008" tolerances...

          That's nearing the cost of HDPE raw bars. That gantry though -- that's a different problem. Looks like no-one has tried reaming sintered nylon into a bearing...

          Also -- the Lumen domain is dead. It is now domain parked by some scammer. Looks like any vestige of the company is officially over.



          --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Do you have any numbers on the cost of printing yet?
          >
          > Say four corner posts an the gantry parts?
          >
          > The original micRO can produce spare parts with enough quality and by using hand reamers, you achieve good enough bearing quality holes.
          >
          > But that require you to have a micRO at hand and these are a bit difficult to get as we know...
          >
          >
          > //Dan
          >
          >
          > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:45:53 -0000
          > "ipeerbhai@..." <ipeerbhai@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Nylon-12 as the gantry, since the part can be monolithic. If I can make a bearing surface out of the nylon, then I have no need for added parts/complexity. Laser sintering makes the micRo design slightly more practical to produce.
          > >
          > > If I wanted a separate bearing, I've already found good pre-manufactured, affordable, plain bearings and rolling bearings. I also have designed a new carriage that can be 3d printed or 3-axis milled to mount those existing bearings, and already have that designed to mount to T-Slot. Here's one of my prototype plain bearing test videos:
          > > http://peerbhairobotics.com/2012/11/02/bearing-experiment-results/
          > >
          > > As you can see -- T-Slot + added bearings just doesn't match the look and feel of the micRo. T-Slot can look nice. Bearings can look nice. But for now, for purely aesthetic purposes, I prefer the micRo's look. My target is to figure out how to make it affordable and to good quality. Nylon-12 sinters at 80% density. Nylon is inherently stronger than HDPE. So, 80% density nylon should match HDPE characteristics in almost everything but color, surface quality, and water resistance. Color is better -- HDPE has a more "cream" color than Nylon. Surface quality -- not so much. But -- nylon can be polished and dyed to create a very nice surface. ( Hot pink CNC mill, anyone? ) Water resistance is pretty bad, but nylon can be sealed. With a good hand-reamer, I think it might be bearing grade. But again, the test is expensive... I'd rather find if someone has already done it...
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Njae...
          > > >
          > > > Why not make a bearing out of a chunk of Delrin or HPDE? It's the same material as the micRO is made of. I suggest touser the cermaic coated aluminium rods as the original micRO as they are cheap and very(!) good.
          > > >
          > > > Also, do not fall into the size matters trap! Go for a M2 design. The M3 is to big and the base flexes. By using a more rigid base, most of the flex problem will go away. And another lesson learned! T-slot base! Don't even consider the cheapo hole solution we have now.
          > > >
          > > > You might need to re design the support parts, especially the corners. They take a lot of load and a sintered part will flex. Possibly adding a metal support part.
          > > >
          > > > Alternatively, use steel rods and get copper bronxe besarings to sacrew on the gantry parts.
          > > >
          > > > Hmm, I might need to get me some kind of 3D printer for xmas this year?
          > > > I'm not sure for what reason but I still have a few months left :)
          > > >
          > > > My list of "upgrades" for the micRO is:
          > > >
          > > > More rigid base. Possible scale down to M2 by buying new and shorter rods and screws.
          > > >
          > > > The base designed as a full sized vacuum table with T-slot blocks add ons.
          > > >
          > > > A new spindle with tapered contact bearing at bottom. ( working on it )
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > //Dan, M0DFI
          > > >
          > > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 18:52:36 -0000
          > > > "ipeerbhai@" <ipeerbhai@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Hi All,
          > > > >
          > > > > I recently came to own a used MakerBot. It can print a part that visibly meets tolerance requirements for the micRo. This means the support stanchions might function when 3d printed. Might.
          > > > >
          > > > > Next up is the Gantry. I've been wondering about laser sintered nylon-12 -- like you can get from Ponoko. It costs $300 a part to get a laser-sintered gantry component from there ( so about $900 USD ) using nylon-12. I know nylon makes a good bearing -- but sintering makes a bad bearing. I'm thinking using the MakerBot to make all the non-moving parts, and then using Ponoko to make the moving parts. I've been really impressed with the Replicator 2. By and far, a very good 3d printer. All tolerances from a MakerBot part seem to be around .2mm -- around .008". Moreover, error seems consistent -- you can characterize it. This is awesome -- I can characterize it well enough to compensate in my CAD models, and with a hair of work, get a part that is more accurate than the stated error.
          > > > >
          > > > > My question -- anyone have any experience sintering nylon-12 then reaming it into a bearing? I'd hate to risk $300+ ream + shipping just to find out what the answer to that question is...
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks!
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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